Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

murphaph

Interesting piece in the Times. Read it here. Basically Clare county council (like loads of councils in attempting to adhere to the law) spent 30,000 translating 3 development plans about 4 years ago. Not a single copy was ever purchased in Irish. In contrast and for completeness, 190 copies in the English language were bought.

I'm not at all against the Irish language, but are we going about this the right way at all? Would that 30 grand not have been better spent on something else, even on a proven method of enhancing the use of irish (evening classes or something, anything rather than translation expenses for unread documents!).

I am sure the official languages act allows government agencies to dispense with either language. Should they now seriously reconsider what they deem important for translation into Irish? I think they should.

LordSutch

You can add your €30.000 to the €30 million already spent on Translations in Brussles!

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005657.shtml

lmimmfn

i dont care, the irish language is dear to me, you guys might not give a crap but i do coming from a Gaeltacht

While we witchhunt for overspending at least have a bit of respect for our culture.

murphaph

lmimmfn wrote: »

i dont care, the irish language is dear to me, you guys might not give a crap but i do coming from a Gaeltacht

While we witchhunt for overspending at least have a bit of respect for our culture.

Did you not read the story? Nobody bought the development plans in irish. Do you not think the money could be better spent (even on more productive ways to enhance the Irish language) elsewhere? Or are you just giving a kneejerk reaction to my post?

"I don't care that 30 grand (and presumably all the other monies for unread irish translations) was spent on something nobody bought" seems a bit silly when we're in such a serious fiscal position. No?

lmimmfn

murphaph wrote: »

Did you not read the story? Nobody bought the development plans in irish. Do you not think the money could be better spent (even on more productive ways to enhance the Irish language) elsewhere? Or are you just giving a kneejerk reaction to my post?

"I don't care that 30 grand (and presumably all the other monies for unread irish translations) was spent on something nobody bought" seems a bit silly when we're in such a serious fiscal position. No?

no,i did read it, i do care about wastage however this is the second thread on the wastage of the irish language and im getting really tired of it.

Again im all for savings but im all for protecting out language.

pawrick

this does nothing to preserve our language - it just adds to the bad feelings towards it for being a perceived waste of time.

money would have been better spent on sending children to a gaeltacht for a week.

mike65

Its quite obvious that technical documents (that have almost no circulation) translated by force of law are a nonsense. Trouble is (and me laddo above could be a good example) someone will take a court case screaming suppression of cultural rights or some such guff.

30k would have been better spent on fixing a few school roofs/windows.

Robbo

mike65 wrote: »

Its quite obvious that technical documents (that have almost no circulation) translated by force of law are a nonsense. Trouble is (and me laddo above could be a good example) someone will take a court case screaming suppression of cultural rights or some such guff.

30k would have been better spent on fixing a few school roofs/windows.

I call if the Eamonn O'Cuiv school of employment. If you were to suggest that translations of some of the more esoteric documents be available subject to demand, half of his constituents west of Spiddal would be turning up with blazing torches and loys at the ready.

I believe there was a similar story here in Galway with having a development plan translated. This was far more successful in our stronghold of the Irish language. Three copies, I think, were sold.

T runner

murphaph wrote: »

I'm not at all against the Irish language, but are we going about this the right way at all? Would that 30 grand not have been better spent on something else, even on a proven method of enhancing the use of irish (evening classes or something, anything rather than translation expenses for unread documents!).

Unread documents are not the same thing as unbought documents. The articles seem to be available on PDF on the Clare CoCo website.

Its also worth noting that this stat has probably been cherry picked by the author to suit his argument. A fairer view would be the totals that are read by Irish speakers across the juristiction.

30 grand for 3 documents seems excessive? How did they arrive at this figure? There seems to be only one big player in the Irish translation market. Maybe the local authorities have been negotiating bad deals?

I am sure the official languages act allows government agencies to dispense with either language. Should they now seriously reconsider what they deem important for translation into Irish? I think they should

It actually doesnt Ref ( Cuid 3, uimhir 10 ). All public policy documents must be published in both languages simultaneously.

If it were enacted as a regional language then I guess the translation would only become necessary in the regional area. That would require another act and the definition of the regional area which might necessarily include all counties on the western seaboard including Clare.

Camelot wrote: »

You can add your €30.000 to the €30 million already spent on Translations in Brussels!

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005657.shtml

This is normal and as the article shows even Official regional languages must be translated in Europe.

The advantage is that each country only has to translate to its official languages if necessary they do not all have to research and produce 27 or whatever reports.

jimmmy

murphaph wrote: »

Should they now seriously reconsider what they deem important for translation into Irish? I think they should.

Of course. Look at so many govt publications. Even a silly ESB book about saving energy which was delivered to each house a few months ago. Half the book was in bl**dy Irish ! So much money is wasted in this country translating everything in to the Irish language. So many papers involve double the amount of ink, paper + oil used to transport the paper around. There is little or no demand for written Irish. Let those who want it pay for it. See how many papers in the Irish language are sold in your local newsagent ?

murphaph

Does anyone know what section of the Official Languages Act allows one or other language to be left to one side for some purposes? It's in there somewhere as I've seen it posted before.

I accept that the document was probably available for download from the CC website, but given the shoddy broadband provision in Ireland (and I would presume particularly shoddy in more rural areas where we might expect to find higher incidences of Irish speakers) is it not surprising that the document was purchased by 190 people in English, and absolutely none in Irish?

turgon

May I also point out that those who do choose to read or purchase Irish development plans or other such documents are probably able to read the English version too. It really is a debate of pragmatism vs ideology. Not translating development plans wont do anything to harm the Irish language. But ideology always wins out.

Permabear

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T runner

murphaph wrote: »

Does anyone know what section of the Official Languages Act allows one or other language to be left to one side for some purposes? It's in there somewhere as I've seen it posted before.

I accept that the document was probably available for download from the CC website, but given the shoddy broadband provision in Ireland (and I would presume particularly shoddy in more rural areas where we might expect to find higher incidences of Irish speakers) is it not surprising that the document was purchased by 190 people in English, and absolutely none in Irish?

The document would probably be bought by the same corporations/companies year in year out. These would need to have a copy in their office.
If one of these companies happenned to be in a gaeltacht area they would probably buy one of each language. Otherwise they will naturally only buy the English one.

Members of the public who would want check the document (or part of) would more than likely do so on line. The entirety of that document can be downloaded in a few seconds and less than 30 even with the slowest connection.

Any official national language in a European nation will get this treatment for public documentation. The only way to change this is to demote it as a national language and there honestly isnt the support for this in Ireland.

Rebelheart

jimmmy wrote: »

Even a silly ESB book about saving energy which was delivered to each house a few months ago. Half the book was in bl**dy Irish ! So much money is wasted in this country translating everything in to the Irish language. So many papers involve double the amount of ink, paper + oil used to transport the paper around. There is little or no demand for written Irish. Let those who want it pay for it.

"Bloody Irish", is it? This sums up so much about the sort of people on Boards.ie who want want to remove any semblance of status and power from the Irish language in Ireland.

Amazing how so many of the people who are willing (if not keen, in some cases) to have taxpayers' money spent on integrating tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of foreigners in Ireland get all up in arms when a bit of money, a tiny bit of money in comparison, is spent on ensuring that Irish people who speak Irish have at least some of the same rights as English speakers in this country.

How much money has been ploughed into giving English classes in this country to immigrants - free English classes? Classes which are, overwhelmingly, an absurd waste of taxpayers' money as the majority of the people in them only attend as they have to be recorded as present in order to get a work permit. The media doesn't pick on this - it wouldn't be pc - but anybody who has taught English in a language school will attest to this massive waste. This promotion of the English language every day of the week at a far greater cost is acceptable to all these ""practical" people on Boards.ie.

Oh, and how much did the English language version cost to produce? How much have my taxes subsidised the 190 people who have purchased it? To put this story in the bitter (atavistic?) framework of certain people here: how much have English speakers cost me?

The anti-Irish lobby like the above poster are petty beyond words. Narrow, selective, bitter and, at heart, hostile to Irish culture. Were you not hostile, you would see the far, far greater abuses of public finances that occur as a result of the state of Ireland "promoting" the English language in this state. Just to reiterate: the immigrants in question are forced to attend English language classes or else they can be deported/refused permission to stay; English is "rammed" down their throats (to use the emotive language of the anti-Irish brigade), in other words, and my taxes are paying for it.

Permabear

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walshb

pawrick wrote: »

this does nothing to preserve our language - it just adds to the bad feelings towards it for being a perceived waste of time.

money would have been better spent on sending children to a gaeltacht for a week.

Agree fully, I am proud to be Irish, but the language is a dead language and it's time we faced up to it. Barely anyone can string a sentence together; this is the reality, and I would love to be able to speak it, but I can't, and nor do I have the time or energy to learn it. Even if I did, what's the point, as very very few people would be able to communicate with me:)

Throwing money at the language is a waste, a complete waste. We'd be better off learning a language we can actually use here, and abroad, like Chinese or Japanese for example. Who the **** cares if I can speak Irish?

Joey the lips

Personally I would ask that you leave the Irish language alone. I dont speak irish and i think that is the shame. Not that we are spending millions on it.

The govt lobby group has spent a lot of time and energy getting the irish language declared an official language of europe which means your children will only have to learn one other language to get a job in europe. This also has the duel purposes of stopping us look like [EMAIL="a@@holes"]a@@holes[/EMAIL] when an eastern european comes up to us and says " Why you speak no irish"

There is 4 things on boards which annoys the hell out of me and mainly because all the arguements against them(In irish language case) are unfounded and all the arguements in favour of them(Prostitution) are pie in the sky

Rebelheart

"Multiculturalism", anglophone style in Ireland: we will pump tens of millions (at least) into promoting the English language, and accepting cultures and languages from all over the world.

However, this "multiculturalism" does not, and never did, extend to the Irish language and Irish culture. This version of "multiculturalism" is, in its unvarnished reality, a new albeit really weird and illogical dressing on an anti-Irish tradition which has been the foundation stone of the British in Ireland.

Nothing new, in other words.

TheInquisitor

Yes it is completely retarded. I think the optio nshould always be there if an Irish speaker wants the text in Irish then it gets translated. Otherwise there is just no need. It should be done on a demand basis. Usual public sector idiots spending our money like it goes on trees.

whatdoicare

Joey the lips wrote: »

This also has the duel purposes of stopping us look like a@@holes when an eastern european comes up to us and says " Why you speak no irish"

In my whole life and I've done a fair bit of travelling and living abroad have I been asked by anyone "Why you speak no Irish", most countries don't even realise we have a language and lump us in with England. People in Australia, Asia and America think Ireland is in the UK ,ffs!
I can guarantee that people in Eastern Europe don't know or care about our language.

Rebelheart

walshb wrote: »

the language is a dead language and it's time we faced up to it. Barely anyone can string a sentence together; this is the reality.... Throwing money at the language is a waste, a complete waste. We'd be better off learning a language we can actually use here, and abroad, like Chinese or Japanese for example. Who the **** cares if I can speak Irish?

More of the same. You think the language is "dead" so now want to change public policy based on that extraordinarily ill-informed viewpoint. Irish is, evidently unfortunately for you, very much a live language. The places where it is spoken tend to be populated by well educated and independent-minded Irish people. Maybe you need to get a bit upwardly mobile?

I can list a long line of things in this society that are a "complete waste" of taxpayers' money. Only somebody who is profoundly undereducated, or bitterly anti-Irish Ireland like Kevin Myers, could contend that Irish is one of these things.

walshb wrote: »

We'd be better off learning a language we can actually use here, and abroad, like Chinese or Japanese for example. Who the **** cares if I can speak Irish?

Wow. Next time I think about learning a new language I must remember to put a consideration: what will people think of me if I learn this language? What a depressingly shallow reason to do anything.

walshb wrote: »

Barely anyone can string a sentence together; this is the reality.

The day the standard of Irish in this country becomes as sloppy, careless, unsourced and irrational as is that sentence is the day when Irish will be in trouble.

NewDubliner

Rebelheart wrote: »

we will pump tens of millions (at least) into promoting the English language, ...However, this "multiculturalism" does not, and never did, extend to the Irish language and Irish culture. .

Are you saying that no money at all has been spent promoting Irish? That we don't have laws requiring all public services and documents to be be provided in Irish despite the fact that everyone here speaks English? That a whole, expensive government department does not exist to service the demands of the minority of people here, who speak Irish on a daily basis?

Pull the other one.

Permabear

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Sleepy

The scrapping of this sort of thing is quite simply too sensible to ever be implemented by an Irish government.

Joey the lips

whatdoicare wrote: »

In my whole life and I've done a fair bit of travelling and living abroad have I been asked by anyone "Why you speak no Irish", most countries don't even realise we have a language and lump us in with England. People in Australia, Asia and America think Ireland is in the UK ,ffs!
I can guarantee that people in the middle east don't know or care about our language.

You have managed to argue the main reason why irish language is important " National Identity" Well done. I need not say more.

Maith on fear agus go raibh maith agat!

Rebelheart

NewDubliner wrote: »

Are you saying that no money at all has been spent promoting Irish? That we don't have laws requiring all public services and documents to be be provided in Irish despite the fact that everyone here speaks English? That a whole, expensive government department does not exist to service the demands of the minority of people here, who speak Irish on a daily basis?

Pull the other one.

No, I am talking about the "multiculturalism" of the people who are, by disposition, against the Irish language (and Irish Ireland culture generally), but who like to claim to be in favour of Japanese, Chinese and all sorts of other multicultural things.

The reason we have protections for the Irish language has nothing to do with them. This should be very clear. These protections exist because there are genuine multiculturalists in Ireland who see the huge value in the Irish language. It is, moreover, because there is very strong popular support for this. There is also the minor matter of the reality of hundreds of thousands of people speaking the language everyday, of tens of thousands of Irish tax-paying parents sending their children to Irish language schools. And much, much else.

They, whether some people here like it or not, have the same rights in Ireland as English speakers who are ranting and raving against state funding for the Irish language (but quiet as mice about Irish state funding for the English language).

whatdoicare

Joey the lips wrote: »

You have managed to argue the main reason why irish language is important " National Identity" Well done. I need not say more.

Maith on fear agus go raibh maith agat!

Great, now you're calling me a man, well done.
Don't pull that "National Identity" card on me, we've all just given that up to the Lisbon treaty in the hopes they'll pull our A** out of the fire.

Rebelheart

whatdoicare wrote: »

Great, now you're calling me a man, well done.
Don't pull that "National Identity" card on me, we've all just given that up to the Lisbon treaty in the hopes they'll pull our A** out of the fire.

Nonsense. Our culture is being sold every day to the British Premiership (to take a most prominent example) and anything else which comes up on the TV screen. Our identity is another matter. The Lisbon Treaty was one of the smartest things the Irish people have done since joining the EEC/EU.

It brings us closer to the rest of Europe but, moreover, is another step along the road to weakening the myopic world view of certain Irish people, a world view which still, in 2009, revolves around, and is in awe of, Britain and its culture. How blinkered.

This country should be learning from the best states in Europe (and indeed the world). It is far better for Irish society the we become a eurocentric society rather than the suffocatingly anglocentric one which certain Irish people want it to remain. I am proud to be European and Irish. We would be a food-supplying backwater of mother England if some people here had their way.

Rebelheart

donegalfella wrote: »

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How much money has been given to English language writers? Why is the state subsidising them? If people like them, they will surely pay them sufficient money to cover the cost of the books without the state giving these writers a handout?

What's sauce for the goose ....

Sand

As DF noted, just repeal the official languages status and you save hundreds of millions a year.

Imagine how many cancer tests could be done on young girls with the money saved? Whats the better part of our national identity? Providing for those tests, or telling the victims of cutbacks they wont be getting taken care of...in Irish. Wont somebody think of the children?

So much of taxpayer money is diverted into utter economic blackholes with no good purpose when actual needs are being hindered.