Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

nesf

nesf wrote: »

Ok, to me anyway your native tongue is fundamentally different to learning a skill like woodwork at home. I appreciate your point, my son will be blessed in the area of Mathematics, Science/Physics, English, Economics etc because of both his parents being academics and having a high level of skill in those areas but it seems different to me for him to have access to this expertise versus being a native Irish speaker which he is.

Actually, I've thought of why it bothers me. My son will have a good standard of spoken Irish (better than most (if not all) students who attain fluency through teaching themselves) without having to expend any extra effort. He will just have it by dint of being raised through the language. To learn Mathematics or whatever from me he'll have to expend effort, he'll have an advantage sure but it isn't a free ride and if he doesn't put in the effort he gains nothing from my knowledge of the subject. The same goes for the carpenter's son.

That's why it feels wrong to me.

Grudaire

Well to be honest it's a subtle problem. I think it's the first realisation for many that life isn't always fair, and some people do get an easier ride.

But there's no way to police it right, what criteria can you use to get people into the right class? location is clearly not a good indicator. Also by giving one course extra points that defeats the purpose...

Perhaps setting up a second subject, called advanced Irish or something, and have that as an optional subject for Irish speakers to be pushed further, and so they can gain further points by doing the advanced course (like maths, and applied maths)

Benhonan

nesf wrote: »

Actually, I've thought of why it bothers me. My son will have a good standard of spoken Irish (better than most (if not all) students who attain fluency through teaching themselves) without having to expend any extra effort. He will just have it by dint of being raised through the language. To learn Mathematics or whatever from me he'll have to expend effort, he'll have an advantage sure but it isn't a free ride and if he doesn't put in the effort he gains nothing from my knowledge of the subject. The same goes for the carpenter's son.

That's why it feels wrong to me.

Some people are naturally very musical, they will get higher marks in the music exam without having to expend any extra effort. the same goes for anyone with higher intelligence in a given area. Do you really think there is no extra effort necessary to become bilingual? Just because the work is put in as a small child it doesn't mean it isn't put in.

By a similar token should children whose families bring them to the Gaeltacht for two months every summer and at Christmas have extra standards imposed on them, but not to the same degree as the bilingual kids?

Scofflaw

Cliste wrote: »

Well to be honest it's a subtle problem. I think it's the first realisation for many that life isn't always fair, and some people do get an easier ride.

But there's no way to police it right, what criteria can you use to get people into the right class? location is clearly not a good indicator. Also by giving one course extra points that defeats the purpose...

Perhaps setting up a second subject, called advanced Irish or something, and have that as an optional subject for Irish speakers to be pushed further, and so they can gain further points by doing the advanced course (like maths, and applied maths)

Do you not still get extra points for doing your exams through Irish entirely?

cordially,
Scofflaw

galwaytt

nesf wrote: »

You should not be rewarded for the accident of birth that is being bilingual.

...by which token, you should not be penalised for the accident of birth of that is being mono-lingual, either.

And in the exam process we have in this country, you are. Not being able to 'compete' in a foreign (as in foreign-to-the-user), irrespective of birthplace/birthright, and having the likes of you're going/not going to Uni hanging in the balance because of it, is, frankly, discriminatory.

Grudaire

Scofflaw wrote: »

Do you not still get extra points for doing your exams through Irish entirely?

cordially,
Scofflaw

In my future proposed system - or in real life?

I'm not entirely sure how that works, my understanding is that you can get 10% of the marks you missed - as long as you got under 70% - very open to correction though! (Which isn't as great as it sounds)

T runner

sceptre wrote: »

Let's have a quick look at what would now be considered Gaeltacht: 2007. Compare it with what would have made the grade in 1926 if we'd defined the areas then. Bit of a difference, huh?

Ofcourse the massive assumption here is that the poor teaching of Irish is directly responsible for its decline.

Look at these factors:

1. The fall from pre famine 1845 to 1926 (81 years) is much more significant than the rate of fall shown in these graphs.
2. Prevous (pre independence) state policies had targetted Irish in such a way that it was economically extremely difficult for people to survive while speaking Irish.
3. The only people wealthy enough to "afford" to speak Irish already spoke English.
4. Due to the civil war and economic situation in Ireland it was difficult for the government to halt the decline in Gaeltacht populations until relatively recently. The decline didnt stop but the rate of decline was slowed
5. Note: The way compulsory Irish is taught in school (good or bad) will NOT halt the shrinking of Gaeltacht areas.
6. In NI where the state remained hostile to the language almost all the Irish speaking areas have completely dissappeared.

I agree that Irish must be taught in a better manner, but it is too easy to lay the blame for the decline of Irish at the governments door (except to some degree in NI).

I believe they succeeded in stopping its death and now with many children learning in all Irish schools there may be a chance and real appetite for its revival.

O'Morris

donegalfella wrote:

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It will filter through to the above-average speaker and that will set the standard for everyone else. The quality of a language should be judged by the range of experience and the number of abstract concepts that the most fluent and articulate speakers of that language can communicate. If the masters of the Irish language are not being continually forced to translate the language so that it refers to experiences and concepts in the modern world then the language risks falling behind.

I would much rather see a small educated elite speak high-quality Irish than see the mass of the population speak a sub-standard and archaic version of the language. I think raising standards is more important than preserving number of speakers.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

If the true costs to the English-speaking taxpayer of translating documents into Irish were made known to the English-speaking taxpayer I don't think average English-speaking taxpayer would be too bothered. The average English-speaking taxpayer of this country is pro-Irish and I can't see him objecting to the 2 or 3 euros out of his taxes that the government is spending each year to translate documents into Ireland's native language. If they do object to it though I would have no problem with them being given the option to reclaim that 2 or 3 euros so that they can spend it on something that they consider to be less wasteful.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

It's of much higher quality than the prose produced by the average man on the street who can barely speak the language after spending nios ma na a decade learning the teanga in school.

I think we could easily cut a few million out of the annual budget spent on teaching Irish in secondary school without seeing any noticeable decline in standards. Cutting the million or two million that we spend on translations each year would probably be more damaging to the language.

Scofflaw

Making Irish an elite language would be, I suspect, extremely beneficial for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Herbal Deity

Scofflaw wrote: »

Do you not still get extra points for doing your exams through Irish entirely?

cordially,
Scofflaw

A very small amount for most people, and it's usually justified given there's an extra effort required. Nothing like the "100 free points" myth which I've seen repeated more than once on boards.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Latin was the language of the educated elite in Europe for the best part of a thousand years, and remains still extraordinarily common for a language whose original linguistic impulse ended 1500 years ago. If one could pull off the same trick for Irish one would really have achieved something!

amused,
Scofflaw

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

NewDubliner

O'Morris wrote: »

If the true costs to the English-speaking taxpayer of translating documents into Irish were made known to the English-speaking taxpayer I don't think average English-speaking taxpayer would be too bothered. The average English-speaking taxpayer of this country is pro-Irish and I can't see him objecting to the 2 or 3 euros out of his taxes that the government is spending each year to translate documents into Ireland's native language. If they do object to it though I would have no problem with them being given the option to reclaim that 2 or 3 euros so that they can spend it on something that they consider to be less wasteful.

What you say is very misleading if not downright dishonest. It's not just the cost of translating documents. The OLA demands that all services be made available in Irish.

How much will it all cost?

The documents and services are already available in one of Ireland's native languages - English.

nesf

Benhonan wrote: »

Do you really think there is no extra effort necessary to become bilingual? Just because the work is put in as a small child it doesn't mean it isn't put in.

Actually watching my son grow, there is no effort involved he's spoken using both language since day 1 and speaks as well in both as a mono-lingual child does in their mother tongue. Bilingualism is actually something the newborn brain seems ready to accept. Having two native languages isn't at all associated with any slowdown of the developement of language skills after 18 months or so. By 3 years the bilingual child speaks as fluently in both as a monolingual child does in their native tongue. So long as the second language is introduced early enough in development it seems to be picked up with minimal effort required or slowing seen.

It's fascinating really (well, for me anyway as a monolingual English speaker from birth).

nesf

Cliste wrote: »

Well to be honest it's a subtle problem. I think it's the first realisation for many that life isn't always fair, and some people do get an easier ride.

But there's no way to police it right, what criteria can you use to get people into the right class? location is clearly not a good indicator. Also by giving one course extra points that defeats the purpose...

Perhaps setting up a second subject, called advanced Irish or something, and have that as an optional subject for Irish speakers to be pushed further, and so they can gain further points by doing the advanced course (like maths, and applied maths)

Perhaps, the issue at the moment isn't critical. Being a native Irish speaker is an advantage but it is most certainly not a guaranteed A1 in Honours. If Irish was changed into something far more basic akin to German or French then this would very much be a problem and the test would be trivial to a native speaker.

I agree life is unfair, but the points system means we do need to give some thought to balancing this.


Oh and as others have said the extra points for doing your exam in Irish only really help those getting lower marks. For an A student they'll gain almost nothing from doing it. For a B student the gain is bigger but really not by much at all. It's only with C students and below that it can make a substantial difference to points.

PaulieD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and people who were naturalized here after working here for over a decade
are not Irish?

In the eyes of the law, yes. In my view, no.

*back on topic

PaulieD

sceptre wrote: »

My quick view...........

Excellent post, sceptre.

O'Morris

NewDubliner wrote: »

What you say is very misleading if not downright dishonest. It's not just the cost of translating documents. The OLA demands that all services be made available in Irish.

The focus of this thread is on the cost of translating documents into Irish and whether those costs are excessive. I don't think the costs are excessive but I think people who believe otherwise should be given the option to claim back the 2 or 3 euros of their taxes that are spent on those translations each year.

NewDubliner

O'Morris wrote: »

The focus of this thread is on the cost of translating documents into Irish and whether those costs are excessive.

Is this because you want to avoid justifying the much more expensive part of the Official Language Act - the provision of all public services in Irish?

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

Is this because you want to avoid justifying the much more expensive part of the Official Language Act - the provision of all public services in Irish?

To be fair the provision of services through Irish is generally accepted to be the logical half of the OLA by most critics! In fact the original complaint was the translations that were never even looked at.

Besides you may find that the provision of services through Irish doesn't add a whole lot of costs, as what happens is the office Gaelgeoir is just made deal with queries, and phonecalls. Although this is a minor part of their job. There isn't a call centre based down in Connemara for the state!

O'Morris

NewDubliner wrote: »

Is this because you want to avoid justifying the much more expensive part of the Official Language Act - the provision of all public services in Irish?

I don't know what the costs to the taxpayer are of the more expensive part of the offical language act so I can't attempt to justify them. I do have an idea of the costs of translating documents into Irish and I am justifying those costs. I think it's wrong that people like you don't have the option to claim back the 2 or 3 euros of your taxes that are spent on translations each year though.

Aard

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't know what the costs to the taxpayer are of the more expensive part of the offical language act so I can't attempt to justify them. I do have an idea of the costs of translating documents into Irish and I am justifying those costs. I think it's wrong that people like you don't have the option to claim back the 2 or 3 euros of your taxes that are spent on translations each year though.

Instead of giving a tax refund (where's the money going to come from anyway?), why not just stop giving grants to those in the Gaeltachts, and use the money instead for the translations?

NewDubliner

Cliste wrote: »

Besides you may find that the provision of services through Irish doesn't add a whole lot of costs, as what happens is the office Gaelgeoir is just made deal with queries, and phonecalls. Although this is a minor part of their job. There isn't a call centre based down in Connemara for the state!

How much money exactly? And, how much more when departments are forced to comply with the OLA in full?

Numbers please.

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much money exactly? And, how much more when departments are forced to comply with the OLA in full?

Numbers please.

why out of curiosity would I have any numbers?

Have you looked into it - perhaps emailled the departments and asked, or if that doesn't work get onto your TD. Asking randomers on forums tends not to be a great source of info tbf.

Not to mention it is the pro-Irish side (a generalisation) who are bringing the figures to the discussion...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Aard

After a quick Googling, these are some yearly expenditures on Irish:

€1.8m - Translating reports into Irish (http://www.gaelport.com/sonrai-nuachta?NewsItemID=3264)
€0.7m - Grants for Gaeltacht households (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-8364700000-to-teach-irish-in-colleges-overseas-1713709.html)
€0.8m - Irish promotion abroad (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0419/irish.html)
______
€3.3m



These ones are easily quantifyable. Others are not. E.g. many people (students, teachers, civil servants) have to spend many hours learning something that they will rarely use, time which could have been spent honing another skill that would add to the knowledge economy more substantially. I'm no economist, but I believe that that's called an Opportunity Cost. It seems to me that the pro-Irish people aren't that well versed in economics themselves, and believe that economics and culture are mutually exclusive domains.

NewDubliner

Cliste wrote: »

Not to mention it is the pro-Irish side (a generalisation) who are bringing the figures to the discussion...

We're alll 'pro-Irish', according to the statistics generated by the Irish language spending lobby.

The figures available are quite sparse because the OLA made no provision for cost control measures.

Some of us are concerned about unlimited, unbudgeted spending on Irish language services and some are not.

Let's agree to suspend the OLA until proper cost controls are put in place?

as to this:

Sceim Labhairt na Gaeilge provides for a grant of €260 per household in the Gaeltacht where Irish is the normal spoken language.

Why on earth are we paying these people? If we don't pay them, will they stop speaking Irish? Surely the knowledge that they've done their bit is enough reward?

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

We're alll 'pro-Irish', according to the statistics generated by the Irish language spending lobby.

The figures available are quite sparse because the OLA made no provision for cost control measures.

Some of us are concerned about unlimited, unbudgeted spending on Irish language services and some are not.

They're the only figures that I have to go on, and just because they don't agree with your view of the world doesn't mean they're not true.
The costs are not unlimited as you imply. Your focus is on the translation of useless documents to Irish - at a fraction of the cost of the creation of the document, I'd prefere not to make half the stupid documents at all.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Let's agree to suspend the OLA until proper cost controls are put in place?

Thats a wonderful notion, but even if everyone on boards agree's that we should have a new government, doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'm not a member of any party, so getting me to agree to anything is as useful as burning a monkey

NewDubliner wrote: »

as to this:Why on earth are we paying these people? If we don't pay them, will they stop speaking Irish? Surely the knowledge that they've done their bit is enough reward?

I agree completely - on this point - now stop flip flopping around different arguments

smur89

Ive just spent the last 4 days reading through these 39 pages!

Im not a fluent Irish speaker, though would love to be (same story, not enough time to dedicate to it)

110% agree that there needs to be major changes in the way Irish is taught in schools.

However, I would like to make a point in response to those who say that we could better spend our time in school learning another european language; German, French, Spanish, or what have you.
The students in those countries speak their own language, French, German etc... and then study English. Which has already been pointed out, is a great advantage.

I can imagine that ill be slaughtered with "the two arent comparable" etc etc etc.
But ive always felt, and had felt while i was in school, that Irish was *supposed* to be my first language, and as with French student or German student, I was learning english.

Although its not exactly that simple, thats basically my feelings on it. I dont see why we would need to scrap Irish in favour of another countries language.

optocynic

smur89 wrote: »

Ive just spent the last 4 days reading through these 39 pages!

Im not a fluent Irish speaker, though would love to be (same story, not enough time to dedicate to it)

110% agree that there needs to be major changes in the way Irish is taught in schools.

However, I would like to make a point in response to those who say that we could better spend our time in school learning another european language; German, French, Spanish, or what have you.
The students in those countries speak their own language, French, German etc... and then study English. Which has already been pointed out, is a great advantage.

I can imagine that ill be slaughtered with "the two arent comparable" etc etc etc.
But ive always felt, and had felt while i was in school, that Irish was *supposed* to be my first language, and as with French student or German student, I was learning english.

Although its not exactly that simple, thats basically my feelings on it. I dont see why we would need to scrap Irish in favour of another countries language.

I don't think it should be scraped at all. Just made optional.
If the schools need to have a compulsory language taught in their classes, why not something where it will be of benefit in later life, while dealing with another country/economy.

Like it or not, Irish is not our first language, but French is in France, German is in Germany.. etc...

jimmmy

optocynic wrote: »

I don't think it should be scraped at all. Just made optional.
If the schools need to have a compulsory language taught in their classes, why not something where it will be of benefit in later life, while dealing with another country/economy.

Like it or not, Irish is not our first language, but French is in France, German is in Germany.. etc...

+ 1. Too much money and time and effort is wasted in this country on a language few people ever use once they leave school. I never saw anyone buying an Irish language paper or book in my life.

smur89

my point wasnt really about irish being my first language...

Just because you havent seen people buy irish books doesnt mean they arent, nor does it make the language dead. Ive read a few irish books since ive left school
Ive never seen anyone buy a book written in sign language, but you can see it on the news every evening.

Grudaire

jimmmy wrote: »

+ 1. Too much money and time and effort is wasted in this country on a language few people ever use once they leave school. I never saw anyone buying an Irish language paper or book in my life.

Shall I ring you next time I am buying one!?:rolleyes:

eddyc

@smur89, your feeling that Irish should be our native language I'm sure is held by many people who support the modern language revival, the problem is that it isn't.
The fact that it isn't leads some people to want to reverse time and bring to nation back to when we all ( except for maybe the people that lived in Dublin ) spoke some form of Irish or another.
The problem with this is that it is a romantic notion that has little or no practical benefit for anybody and certainly shouldn't be mandated by a state that hasn't got two cents to rub together.
People point to the fact that the arts get government money, galleries, the film industry, even the horse racing industry gets some. I personally don't think that they should get any money from the government either.
The difference with Irish and the underlying Irish language industry is that people are made to speak it in school whether they like it or not *as if* it is they're native language, please take you head out of the sand and listen to the hiberno - english that is spoken by 99.9% of irish people 99.9% of the time.
Irish was once the language of ireland most people spoke like old english / german / french were once the languages most people spoke of they're namesake countries. People can and do learn these languages and that is great and fine. The government doesn't have to make silly laws mandating they're upkeep.

jimmmy

smur89 wrote: »

Just because you havent seen people buy irish books doesnt mean they arent,

I appreciate that, but I have never seen anyone buying an Irish language magazine or newspaper either. Despite the hundreds of millions the govt has pumped in to the language over the years. Do not get me wrong : I do not mind or care if you buy Irish language reading materials or not - just do not expect me as a taxpayer to support you, and if kids have to learn another language besides the one we all use everyday, I would prefer to see kids in school being able to speak some continental language by the time they leave school...

smur89

jimmmy wrote: »

I appreciate that, but I have never seen anyone buying an Irish language magazine or newspaper either. Despite the hundreds of millions the govt has pumped in to the language over the years. Do not get me wrong : I do not mind or care if you buy Irish language reading materials or not - just do not expect me as a taxpayer to support you, and if kids have to learn another language besides the one we all use everyday, I would prefer to see kids in school being able to speak some continental language by the time they leave school...

This'll be my last post, as i never really intended to get involved in the debate!

That's your preference, I would consider irish more important to my kids (if/when i have them) than a continental language. Whereas i agree you/your kids should be able to choose between the two (or both). I still think it should be compulsary up to a certain stage, say Junior cert level or so.

Edit: i realise i kind of contradict myself in this post.

thebman

smur89 wrote: »

my point wasnt really about irish being my first language...

Just because you havent seen people buy irish books doesnt mean they arent, nor does it make the language dead. Ive read a few irish books since ive left school
Ive never seen anyone buy a book written in sign language, but you can see it on the news every evening.

Sign language is for people with special needs

Completely different, it is not economically beneficial to broadcast in sign language in many cases which is why such programming is usually on very late or only broadcast by the state broadcaster or as a requirement of broadcasting legislation.

nesf

jimmmy wrote: »

I never saw anyone buying an Irish language paper or book in my life.

That's amazing considering you seem to know someone in every walk of life, generally someone who is lazing about in the public sector making a mint but still it's a wonder that all these lazy public sector acquaintances of your's haven't taken out Foinse in front of you, you know just to rub the salt in.

jimmmy

nesf wrote: »

That's amazing considering you seem to know someone in every walk of life,

I do know a fair few people from neighbours to club mates to sporting colleagues to friends to old-school + college mates to business and work contacts etc ....but there are many people in the country who would know as many if not more people.

nesf wrote: »

generally someone who is lazing about in the public sector making a mint

Nope. "generally" the people I know are definitely not "someone who is lazing about in the public sector making a mint "

nesf wrote: »

but still it's a wonder that all these lazy public sector acquaintances of your's haven't taken out Foinse in front of you, you know just to rub the salt in.

Must ask a few newsagents if they ever heard of Foinse, I can honestly say I never heard of Fenzy....are you sure you are not sending me in to a newsagent / bookshop to ask for a " bad word" in Irish ? :D:D

Grudaire

jimmmy wrote: »

Must ask a few newsagents if they ever heard of Foinse, I can honestly say I never heard of Fenzy....are you sure you are not sending me in to a newsagent / bookshop to ask for a " bad word" in Irish ? :D:D

As much as this may be Christmas come early for ya, but Foinse is gone! (Not surprising - it was far too boring for me )

Nós is struggling on though!

NewDubliner

Cliste wrote: »

As much as this may be Christmas come early for ya, but Foinse is gone! (Not surprising - it was far too boring for me )
Nós is struggling on though!

Just read the story. This was a state funded Irish language newspaper that operated 'at a profit' up until last year. 'At a profit' that is, including the free money from the state.

The government money is still budgeted if someone else wants to publish an Irish-language paper, at taxpayer expense, (€6,800 an edition) that no-one reads.

Red Alert

I only think it should remain compulsory for people to learn it in school if it's going to be taught in an intelligent way. There's no point making people analyze poetry from the last century, regurgitating tracts that they don't know the meaning of. Despite this, we don't teach people how to conduct everyday life transactions through Irish. That's the real problem, and that's why the language is now dead. An Irish teacher once told me that efforts were made to teach Irish essentially the same was as french or german, and these are constantly resisted by people 'down in the Gaeltacht' as he put it.

It is particularly useless to translate large tracts of legislation that nobody is ever going to read into Irish. What they should do is try and rationalize all the online and paper forms people use to communicate with state, and then use software-like localization techniques. This would have the upshot of keeping the Irish available for the most part, and allowing us to cater to other languages, like we had to when dealing with Polish in a much cheaper way.

NewDubliner

Red Alert wrote: »

I only think it should remain compulsory for people to learn it in school

Why not make it only compulsory for people whose ancestors used the speak the language?

Aard

I.e. about 90% of the population?

NewDubliner

Aard wrote: »

I.e. about 90% of the population?

I think we set a baseline of say, the 16th century and see where that person's direct ancestors, say on the patrmonial line were at that time. If they were Irish speaking, then they're deemed to be candidates for the Irish language revival.

It's hardly fair to involve people in a Gaelic language revival if their ancestors were mixed language or never spoke Irish at all or if they voluntarily decided to speak English.

Herbal Deity

Filthy mudbloods, the lot of ye!

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think we set a baseline of say, the 16th century and see where that person's direct ancestors, say on the patrmonial line were at that time. If they were Irish speaking, then they're deemed to be candidates for the Irish language revival.

It's hardly fair to involve people in a Gaelic language revival if their ancestors were mixed language or never spoke Irish at all or if they voluntarily decided to speak English.

... of course while we're at it we'd have to deport everyone who isn't

NewDubliner

This from the 'Indo':

Irish Independent to distribute Foinse, Ireland ’s biggest Irish language newspaper

Foinse, Ireland’s biggest Irish language newspaper has today announced that it’s newly refreshed Foinse newspaper will be distributed free every Wednesday, starting 18 November with the Irish Independent, the largest selling national quality daily in Ireland.....The publication which has been out of circulation since June had a previous circulation of 4,500. The newly refreshed Foinse publication will employ five full time employees and also utilise a network of correspondents, contributors and services and is a wholly privately funded company.

Does this mean that 'Foinse' is no longer subsidised by the taxpayer? Great news, if it's true.

senordingdong

Thirty grand to translate the document?

Who the **** transated it?
Was it on gold paper?

Even if the council stopped pissing away money like this....they would inevitably piss it away on something else.