Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

topper75

optocynic wrote: »

Snore!
Answer the question again, with rationality this time.
How useful is the Irish language to us?

Spare me the fenian anglo-phobia.

Rationality! LOL. Answer it in a way that aligns with your viewpoint you mean?

Look - if you feel that me speaking my own language and defending my right to do so, somehow equates with fear or hatred of our British neighbours, then that is just plain sad.

optocynic

topper75 wrote: »

Rationality! LOL. Answer it in a way that aligns with your viewpoint you mean?

Look - if you feel that me speaking my own language and defending my right to do so, somehow equates with fear or hatred of our British neighbours, then that is just plain sad.

No... the fact that you look down on people who don't share your militant view of the Irish language makes you a bigot! A narrow-minded fool.

I don't take kindly to people telling me I'm not Irish, just becasue I don't speak the language... my parents had sex here... just like yours...

Hence I'm Irish!...

topper75

optocynic wrote: »

WOW!
I eat Italian food, and drink French Wine... and Hate Irish whiskey..
What does that make me?

And if I'm less Irish than you... should I not have to pay less Irish tax than you?... Or should I have a different passport?

You want to be seen to be 'just as Irish' as people who speak Irish, when you do not? It's asking a lot I think.

optocynic

topper75 wrote: »

You want to be seen to be 'just as Irish' as people who speak Irish, when you do not? It's asking a lot I think.

Why is that asking a lot?

I am just as Irish as you! And I passed the leaving cert Irish paper... but I got A1's in worthwhile subjects, like Maths.

Your arguement is akin to saying American's are not American because they don't speak Navahoe!

RedPlanet

topper75 wrote: »

Someone who speaks French is more French than someone born and reared in France who somehow failed to learn the French language.

But that's not comparing like with like. In France, people mostly speak French. In Ireland, the vast majority do not speak Irish, they speak English as a first language.

topper75 wrote: »

I would feel that someone who speaks Irish IS indeed more Irish than someone who doesn't. .

Thanks for clarifying that. I was quietly confident that Gaelgors generally felt that way but it's nice to hear it from the horses mouth. I didn't think that Gaelgors would have the naivety to say as much however, as this expression is rather exclusionary and generally offensive to the majority of irish people.

The Corinthian

topper75 wrote: »

My answer would be complex but a cornerstone would be to first point to this language that is thousands of years old with the oldest vernacular literature in Western Europe.

It's not thousands of years old. Modern Irish is about three hundred years old. Go back to about 1000 AD and you had Old Irish, which has as much in common with modern Irish as Latin does with Italian.

topper75 wrote: »

The Irish language is the soul of the country.

Is language the principle thing that defines a nation then?

Feel free to tell that to the Ozzies, Belgians, Nigerians, Canadians, Swiss, Austrians and Argentines - to name a very few. Then come back and let us know how you got on...

optocynic

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's not thousands of years old. Modern Irish is about three hundred years old. Go back to about 1000 AD and you had Old Irish, which has as much in common with modern Irish as Latin does with Italian.

Is language the principle thing that defines a nation then?

Feel free to tell that to the Ozzies, Belgians, Nigerians, Canadians, Swiss, Austrians and Argentines - to name a very few. Then come back and let us know how you got on...

The crux of the arguement here is, false supremacy.
They speak fluent Irish, hence they are better than us (or more Irish at least)... but to speak a useless language is as abstract as me saying I shot a 65 on the K-Club course in my Nintendo Wii... hence I am a better person than you!!!

It is self agrandising crap...

But that round of 65 was pretty sweet... right??

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

optocynic wrote: »

No... the fact that you look down on people who don't share your militant view of the Irish language makes you a bigot! A narrow-minded fool.

I don't take kindly to people telling me I'm not Irish, just becasue I don't speak the language... my parents had sex here... just like yours...

Hence I'm Irish!...

i had a little chuckle there

lets not forget people can become Irish by becoming naturalized (a very long process of 8-9 years) or choose to be citizens of another country

a language is a form of communication to enable us to communicate (duh) and conduct our lives and business, not a tool for nationalistic shenanigans


coming from IT world i know several "languages" and daily use C, Java and PHP to get the job done / to get by, as people in the field know languages come and go very quickly in programming world and is a means of communication/instruction between programmers and computers

tho mind you reading any programming forums one would quickly notice how religiously some people take their language of choice, very similar to whats happening in this thread

Scofflaw

RedPlanet wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying that. I was quietly confident that Gaelgors generally felt that way but it's nice to hear it from the horses mouth. I didn't think that Gaelgors would have the naivety to say as much however, as this expression is rather exclusionary and generally offensive to the majority of irish people.

And that attitude is one of the main reasons why those of us who don't speak Irish don't have much interest in learning it. In turn, that keeps Irish a very minority language - the Gaelgoirs are their own best enemies, and have been for rather a while:

Gaels! It delights my Gaelic heart to be here today speaking Gaelic with you at this Gaelic feis in the centre of the Gaeltacht. May I state that I am a Gael. I'm Gaelic from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. . . . If we're truly Gaelic, we must constantly discuss the question of the Gaelic revival and the question of Gaelicism. There is no use in having Gaelic, if we converse in it on non-Gaelic topics. He who speaks Gaelic but fails to discuss the language question is not truly Gaelic in his heart; such conduct is of no benefit to Gaelicism because he only jeers at Gaelic and reviles the Gaels. There is nothing in this life so nice and so Gaelic as truly true Gaelic Gaels who speak in true Gaelic Gaelic about the truly Gaelic language.

cordially,
Scofflaw

T runner

RedPlanet wrote: »

For the Gaelgors, it comes down to an insecurity of their identity.

To be perfectly honest, logic says that people fluent in an old indiginious language would be more secure about their identity.

For they, the irish language seems inseperable to their irish identity.

Language is a huge part of someones identity. If you speak the Irish language it must impact on your identity.

We can be irish and not speak the language.

Yes we are all Irish, but being irish means different things to different people.

It's rather similiar to nationalist enclaves in parts of the North. There, they cling to symbolisms like the Tri-colour. And they tie this to their identity as irish people and they believe that anything that threatens their symbols is an attack on their identity.

TBH the loyalist enclaves have a lot more of an insecurity about their identity naturally enough as they identify with great Britain which is supra-national.

Even though that part of ireland has been under British control for hundreds of years loyalists still feel insecure and unsettled enough to need to fly the Union flag.

Do the Gaelgors feel that those irish people whom do not speak the language (and let's be honest almost none of us grew up speaking irish), are LESS irish than they?

They may feek that their world and culture is certainly a different type of irishness maybe more real and more earthed than our strange Coronation Street, ManU, playstation, "everybody in ireland is thick bar me" form of Irishness. Some may even feel it a superior form of Irishness.

Dont get insecure now!

optocynic wrote: »

Snore!
Answer the question again, with rationality this time.
How useful is the Irish language to us?

Spare me the fenian anglo-phobia.

And this is a common trend amongst the bashers of the Irish language and speakers. A hatred of nationalism--an association of Irishness with nationalism and therefore a hatred of Irish. Nearly all the anti-Irish posters if they are being honest have this characteristic.

optocynic

T runner wrote: »

And this is a common trend amongst the bashers of the Irish language and speakers. A hatred of nationalism--an association of Irishness with nationalism and therefore a hatred of Irish. Nearly all the anti-Irish posters if they are being honest have this characteristic.

This is exactly my point!

The ONLY irish speaks I know (Or have the misfortune to know), are fenian anglo-phobic hate-mongers. It is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is my experience.

As for hating the Irish language... piffle!
I quiet like it. I like that I know some of it too.. but, it is useless!

I ask again, why not replace Irish in our schools with a useful global market language like Mandarin, or Hindi... it is these emerging markets our kids will be doing business with... not the economic power-house that is Donegal!

The language will always survive... and will always be loved.. but forcing it on us is a mistake...

... and telling those who don't speak it that they are not Irish is rather obnoxious and silly!!

Scofflaw

T_Runner wrote:

Red Planet wrote:

For the Gaelgors, it comes down to an insecurity of their identity.

To be perfectly honest, logic says that people fluent in an old indiginious language would be more secure about their identity.

Yes, but I think you'll find that Red Planet's point is that the insecurity of an individual in their Irish identity is what drives them to become "more secure about their identity" by becoming fluent in Irish.

The remark doesn't apply to what we might call 'native speakers'.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sleazus

T runner wrote: »

And this is a common trend amongst the bashers of the Irish language and speakers. A hatred of nationalism--an association of Irishness with nationalism and therefore a hatred of Irish. Nearly all the anti-Irish posters if they are being honest have this characteristic.

Being honest, I resent that implication.

I am Irish and am proud to be. We gave the world Wilde, Joyce, Shaw, Kavanagh, Heaney. Neil Jordan is one of the best directors working in film today - Daniel Day Lewis and Gabriel Byrne among the best actors. We have among the best current affairs broadcasters in the world (if our televised drama leaves a lot to be desired). We are welcome virtually anywhere in the world.

It doesn't matter that I don't speak an archaic language. I am secure enough in who I am and who we are to recognise that our greatest cultural and social accomplishments have been in English. So what?

I don't suggest abolishing Irish or destroying it. Merely that we disregard this notion that it can be important because a vocal minority want it to. Make it optional in schools, stop wasting money tearing down roadsigns and printing everything in an unnecessary second language. I have nothing against Irish, just the false importance we attach to it.

I don't hate Irish culture or nationalism or being Irish. I just find it ironic that it is being foisted upon us now as English was originally. One of history's little ironies, I suppose.

Herbal Deity

Sleazus wrote: »

It doesn't matter that I don't speak an archaic language. I am secure enough in who I am and who we are to recognise that our greatest cultural and social accomplishments have been in English. So what?

There does exist a long tradition of Irish language poets and writers stretching back centuries. You seem to be dismissing the fili and the bards, the Bardic Schools, the oral tradition/storytelling which existed for centuries, let alone later Irish writers such as Padraig Ó Conaire or Sean Ó Ríordáin.

I don't necessarily disagree with your views entirely, but I think that in what I've quoted you saying above, you're being overtly dismissive. Our most widely recognised cultural and social accomplishments have been in English - that is obvious and I can accept it. But all of our greatest cultural and social accomplishments? Well, I don't think you can comment on that as you don't speak Irish and thus cannot understand a large chunk of Irish literature stretching back centuries.

The Corinthian

Herbal Deity wrote: »

You seem to be dismissing the fili and the bards, the Bardic Schools, the oral tradition/storytelling which existed for centuries, let alone later Irish writers such as Padraig Ó Conaire or Sean Ó Ríordáin.

Regrettably the Irish educational system dismissed them too, in favour of Peig Sayers.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sleazus

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I don't necessarily disagree with your views entirely, but I think that in what I've quoted you saying above, you're being overtly dismissive. Our most widely recognised cultural and social accomplishments have been in English - that is obvious and I can accept it. But all of our greatest cultural and social accomplishments?

Okay, I will concede that point.

But isn't there an argument that a work of a high enough caliber transcends the language it was originally published in? I am familiar with Zola and Tolstoy for example, despite the fact that both originally published in their native tongues and not English.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch!

Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You're putting words in my mouth with that last sentence.

The point is that Ireland has a rich tradition of Irish language poetry, mythology, storytelling etc. which stretches back centuries. Important English language writers such as Yeats are Joyce were influenced in various ways by this strong literary tradition which exists in our country.

And many works have been translated to English. Celtic Mythological tales such as an Táin Bó Cúailnge would be a prominent example.

All I'm saying is that Irish language works are extremely important in the literary tradition of Ireland. I don't think it's fair to use the argument that all our internationally renowned greats have been English language writers against the worth of the Irish language with this in mind.

ei.sdraob

T runner wrote: »

. A hatred of nationalism--an association of Irishness with nationalism and therefore a hatred of Irish. Nearly all the anti-Irish posters if they are being honest have this characteristic.

when has nationalism ever resulted in anything but wars, hatred and bloodshed

Scofflaw

ei.sdraob wrote: »

when has nationalism ever resulted in anything but wars, hatred and bloodshed

To be fair, pub nationalism is more likely to result in bores, bad singing and pintshed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

topper75

ei.sdraob wrote: »

when has nationalism ever resulted in anything but wars, hatred and bloodshed

I never fought a war. I don't hate anybody. I didn't spill anyone's blood as a result of speaking the Irish language, and my Irish national identity is important to me. I'm a nationalist. How can you square this?

The status of the Irish language is enshrined in the Bunreacht and also in the Teanga Oifigiúil Act. You want to change that? Go before the people. Personally, I'm happy with it. You want to be some kind of cosmopolitan nationality-free non-entity? then go for it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

when has nationalism ever resulted in anything but wars, hatred and bloodshed

You have missed the point. The poster I was answering associates the Irish language with nationalism. I disagreed with this association.

There may be a higher incidence of patriotism, shall we say in areas where the Irish language predominates. The historical reason being that the Irish language was deliberately marginalised politically, economically and socially by the British state for centuries. It is no coincidence that Irish speakers live in the poorest areas of ireland and are amongst the poorest people.

Im not being a anglo-phobic fenian for stating this i'm just stating a fact. If a foreign power targets specifically your language and culture and persecutes it the only logical reaction to preserve your way of life is to try and eject the persecutor ergo nationalism.

To be honest British nationalism/agression has played a far more prominent role in the story of the Irish language than Irish nationalism.

Scofflaw wrote: »

To be fair, pub nationalism is more likely to result in bores, bad singing and pintshed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I think you are talking about pub republicanism. That is when someone talked in a pub in support of the IRA but that was obviously where it ended.

Not quite sure what you mean about pub nationalism but if it makes you look like you are making a witty yet astute observation sure it has to be good.

ei.sdraob

topper75 wrote: »

I'm a nationalist. How can you square this?

once again your equating a language with Nationalism, why?

you already stated earlier that anyone who doesnt speak Irish is not Irish :rolleyes:

topper75 wrote: »

I never fought a war. I don't hate anybody. I didn't spill anyone's blood as a result of speaking the Irish language, and my Irish national identity is important to me.

you didnt, but other nationalists have spilled alot of blood thruout history of the world and this island > just look at Northern Ireland

topper75 wrote: »

The status of the Irish language is enshrined in the Bunreacht and also in the Teanga Oifigiúil Act. You want to change that? Go before the people. Personally, I'm happy with it.

that'll make for an interesting referendum
"should Irish be made optional in schools"

topper75 wrote: »

You want to be some kind of cosmopolitan nationality-free non-entity? then go for it.

and yes i want an Ireland thats forward looking not "compulsorily" dragging dead weight behind it

actually my only problem with Irish was that its compulsory and not optional

now that I read your posts and tied the language to nationalism, and insulted a lot of people, im really starting to wonder

Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well, I'm not a literary scholar, and you seem to be more well read in the area, so I'll bow out of further discussion on the issue of influences etc.

Perhaps I'm taking your tone the wrong way, but you seem to have somewhat of a contempt towards the notion that centuries of Irish language literary tradition, or indeed any more modern Irish language literature, might hold some valuable cultural or literary significance.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing this as a reason to keep up funding of Irish, just that it shouldn't be forgotten or dismissed.

I speak as someone who went through an all Irish secondary school and had the rather unique experience of studying Irish for my LC in the same manner as anyone else would have studied English. We didn't do Peig Sayers. The majority of what we studied was a load of crap. However, a few gems really stood out to me, and I'd rank them among some of my favourite English language literature.

I don't think the future is very bright for Irish language literature, I just don't think that notions of nothing of literary worth being ever produced in Irish are correct.

topper75

Sleazus wrote: »

It doesn't matter that I don't speak an archaic language.

Irish isn't archaic - it is old. Dictionary time!

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you already stated earlier that anyone who doesnt speak Irish is not Irish

now that I read your posts and tied the language to nationalism, and insulted a lot of people, im really starting to wonder

I stated no such thing. You imagined this. I wrote that anyone not speaking Irish cannot be considered to be AS Irish as those who do. I couldn't claim that they are not Irish of course. There are grades of being 'Irish', as there are indeed grades of any adjective. You clearly seem insulted somehow by this possibility. I don't know about how I managed to insult 'a lot of people'.

It is my right as an Irish speaker to have documents translated into Irish. It is an official language of the state, the first of two as it happens, and this is enshrined in the constitution. Family silver isn't suddenly negotiable just because state finances are tight.

Herbal Deity

topper75 wrote: »

I wrote that anyone not speaking Irish cannot be considered to be AS Irish as those who do.

The reason why it pains me to be an Irish language supporter sometimes...

NewDubliner

T runner wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, logic says that people fluent in an old indiginious language would be more secure about their identity.

Perhaps they derive a this security from a sentiment that they're superior to others? English is the indigenous language of the majority of the population. You've chosen Irish, picking on a particular part of an ancestral heritage that stretches back many thousands of years and freezing it as if Irish-speakers sprang forth from the original Garden of Eden. Which of our ancestral religions have you chosen? Religion is a an important part of cultural identity. Are you a Pagan, pre-schismatic Christian, Tridentine or post Vatican II Roman Catholic? What was the reason for your choice?

T runner wrote: »

TBH the loyalist enclaves have a lot more of an insecurity about their identity naturally enough as they identify with great Britain which is supra-national. Even though that part of ireland has been under British control for hundreds of years loyalists still feel insecure and unsettled enough to need to fly the Union flag.

That may be how it appears to you and perhaps it helps your personal sense of 'Irishness' to look down on others whose culture you feel is inferior ?

T runner wrote: »

our strange Coronation Street, ManU, playstation, "everybody in ireland is thick bar me" form of Irishness. Some may even feel it a superior form of Irishness.

Now you're generalising about people who are different from you. The Irish identity is much more sophisticated and cosmopolitan than you see.

T runner wrote: »

And this is a common trend amongst the bashers of the Irish language and speakers. A hatred of nationalism--an association of Irishness with nationalism and therefore a hatred of Irish. Nearly all the anti-Irish posters if they are being honest have this characteristic.

Ah yes, every time an awkward question comes up, such as 'are we getting VFM for funds spent on Irish?', the response is to accuse people of hating Irish.

ei.sdraob

topper75 wrote: »

Irish isn't archaic - it is old. Dictionary time!



I stated no such thing. You imagined this. I wrote that anyone not speaking Irish cannot be considered to be AS Irish as those who do. I couldn't claim that they are not Irish of course. There are grades of being 'Irish', as there are indeed grades of any adjective. You clearly seem insulted somehow by this possibility. I don't know about how I managed to insult 'a lot of people'.

It is my right as an Irish speaker to have documents translated into Irish. It is an official language of the state, the first of two as it happens, and this is enshrined in the constitution. Family silver isn't suddenly negotiable just because state finances are tight.

am i the only one who is bugged by this smug "superior/greater" Irish attitude above? :rolleyes:


it comes down to this why is learning the language compulsory not optional?
why force something like this on kids and people?
while we at it why not teach kids how to thatch roofs or dig potatoes??