Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

sceptre

ei.sdraob wrote: »

am i the only one who is bugged by this smug "superior/greater" Irish attitude above? :rolleyes:

Heavens no. Well, I wouldn't say "bugged". More disappointed. My views on the education system are well known. Then again, I'll live with my complications of superiority and inferiority complexes.

Everyone knows that if you don't have a sister in the nuns you're only a c-grade Irishman anyway. I'm a bit more worried about those Normans who became more Irish than the Irish themselves though. They upped the curve when they started getting As for being more Irish, making it harder for those of us who were here before them to keep our steady Bs.

Grudaire

ei.sdraob wrote: »

it comes down to this why is learning the language compulsory not optional?
why force something like this on kids and people?
while we at it why not teach kids how to thatch roofs or dig potatoes??

I agree completely,


although I've said it for years now, that English should become optional as well (coming from someone who's worst subject was English! - What a waste of time!)

As for the bold bit - I completely disagree to the point that you make, and I find it ironic that it is the side which claims that Irish isn't necessary to our culture who can summarise Irish culture like that..

Scofflaw

T runner wrote: »

You have missed the point. The poster I was answering associates the Irish language with nationalism. I disagreed with this association.

There may be a higher incidence of patriotism, shall we say in areas where the Irish language predominates. The historical reason being that the Irish language was deliberately marginalised politically, economically and socially by the British state for centuries. It is no coincidence that Irish speakers live in the poorest areas of ireland and are amongst the poorest people.

Im not being a anglo-phobic fenian for stating this i'm just stating a fact. If a foreign power targets specifically your language and culture and persecutes it the only logical reaction to preserve your way of life is to try and eject the persecutor ergo nationalism.

To be honest British nationalism/agression has played a far more prominent role in the story of the Irish language than Irish nationalism.



I think you are talking about pub republicanism. That is when someone talked in a pub in support of the IRA but that was obviously where it ended.

Not quite sure what you mean about pub nationalism but if it makes you look like you are making a witty yet astute observation sure it has to be good.

'Pub nationalism' is the nationalism of someone who is a verbal 'patriot', who may even be aggressively 'patriotic' or nationalist as long as all that is required is knee-jerk tribalism, but who is actually unlikely ever to put the interests of the country before his own.

I wouldn't consider non-native-speaker Gaelgoiri to be quite at that level, but I would see there as being certain similarities - people whose 'preservation of Irish culture' doesn't extend to not living in a TV-mediated British pseudoculture, and whose expression of patriotism or nationalism is largely confined to the verbal.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

ei.sdraob wrote: »

am i the only one who is bugged by this smug "superior/greater" Irish attitude above? :rolleyes:

I'm annoyed by it and I'm raising my son through Irish. He's no more or less Irish than any of the other kids at the pre-school, it's just his mother happened to be a native speaker.

I've actually never come across a native speaker of the language (as opposed who learned it as an adult) who thinks you're less Irish if you can't speak the language. It's bull**** that this attitude is common among them.

O'Morris

The attitude towards people who don't care much for the Irish language is a bit like the attitude towards people who don't care much for the idea of further European integration. Just as some people seem to believe that you can't be a good European if you're opposed to handing over more power to the EU, maybe some people believe that you can't to be a good Irishman if you don't support the effort to preserve and revive the Irish language.

Maybe we should start using the term Irishsceptic to refer to people who feel the same lack of enthusiasm for the Irish project as eurosceptics feel for the European project.

topper75

Quite a few people seem to have big difficulty with the concept of some people being more Irish than others. Could be something to do with some kind of 'everyone's a winner' aspirational egalitarianism so cherished by marxists. It fits hand in hand with their fear of nationalism. There is a a PC drive to remove grading of any kind between people and push cosmopolitanism in Ireland as the 'right' way of thinking. As I said there are grades of any adjective, and there is indeed a spectrum of Irishness.

Though I speak the Irish language, there are a hell of a lot of people out there who are more Irish than me, and not just linguistically either. So I wouldn't call it smugness on my part. I don't feel superior because speaking Irish does not make me more intelligent than non-speakers, it doesn't grant me more rights (beyond obvious language rights). It doesn't offer me a greater claim to live here than non-speakers. However, quite how someone who doesn't speak the Irish language is at the same level of Irishness as someone who does is beyond me, and though there was dismay expressed above at my opinion, I wait for someone to disprove it.

The jocular reference to the 14th century Anglo-Norman assimilation above was interesting. The reason they were observed to be 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was precisely because they adopted the language and customs, not merely becaused the lived here or were born here.

ei.sdraob

O'Morris wrote: »

Maybe we should start using the term Irishsceptic to refer to people who feel the same lack of enthusiasm for the Irish project as eurosceptics feel for the European project.

whats this Irish Project you speak of

O'Morris

ei.sdraob wrote: »

whats this Irish Project you speak of

Why did you ask about the Irish project but not about the European project?

The Irish project is the traditional Irish nationalist project that has been the goal of most Irish nationalists from at least the start of the last century.

Two key goals of the Irish project have always been:

a. The achievement of an independent Irish state covering the entire island of Ireland
b. The promotion of Irish national identity to include the preservation and the revival of the Irish language

Most Irish vote for parties committed to the above.

ei.sdraob

O'Morris wrote: »

Why did you ask about the Irish project but not about the European project?

The Irish project is the traditional Irish nationalist project that has been the goal of most Irish nationalists from at least the start of the last century.

Two key goals of the Irish project have always been:

a. The achievement of an independent Irish state covering the entire island of Ireland
b. The promotion of Irish national identity to include the preservation and the revival of the Irish language

Most Irish vote for parties committed to the above.

so you want to preserve the "revival" of the Irish language by forcing it on everyone

aint that a bit fascist? oh wait nationalism and fascism go hand in hand i forgot


some people here think myself and others are proposing killing the language
that is not the case

the case is to make it optional, so whoever is interested has a choice

comprende?

O'Morris

ei.sdraob wrote:

so you want to preserve the "revival" of the Irish language by forcing it on everyone

I believe in forcing the Irish language on everyone in the same way that I believe in forcing the theory of evolution on everyone. I don't believe the children of non-Irish people living here should be forced to learn the language though. Irish people should also be allowed to drop the subject if they believe it's holding them back.

ei.sdraob wrote:

aint that a bit fascist? oh wait nationalism and fascism go hand in hand i forgot

It would be fascist if the Irishsceptics were denied the means to change government policy. The great thing about living in a democratic Irish state is that people who disagree with government policy have the means to organise and to lobby the politicians to change any policy that they oppose.

Sleazus

topper75 wrote: »

Irish isn't archaic - it is old. Dictionary time!

Yes, dictionary time indeed.

1.) Of or characterized by antiquity; old-fashioned, quaint, antiquated, as an archaic word or phrase.

I'm sorry to go off on a tangent of a tangent,but - given this thread is about the usage of language - it seemed appropriate.

You say old, I say archaic. It's admittedly subjective, but I'd argue both are applicable.

Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

Why did you ask about the Irish project but not about the European project?

The Irish project is the traditional Irish nationalist project that has been the goal of most Irish nationalists from at least the start of the last century.

Two key goals of the Irish project have always been:

a. The achievement of an independent Irish state covering the entire island of Ireland
b. The promotion of Irish national identity to include the preservation and the revival of the Irish language

Most Irish vote for parties committed to the above.

Much as they vote for parties committed to the ratification of EU treaties...

amused,
Scofflaw

NewDubliner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the case is to make it optional, so whoever is interested has a choice

How much extra cost must we add to Public Services to make it optional. The OLA has issued a a directive that all services must be available in Irish regardless of whether or not it is cost-effective to do so.

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote:

Much as they vote for parties committed to the ratification of EU treaties...

That's correct, the main political parties in this country are pro-European and are committed to the European project.

If those of us who are less than enthusiastic about the European project can be called eurosceptics then the people who are less than enthusiastic about the Irish project could be called Irishsceptics.

ei.sdraob

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much extra cost must we add to Public Services to make it optional. The OLA has issued a a directive that all services must be available in Irish regardless of whether or not it is cost-effective to do so.

why not ask the lobbies for the irish language to translate these documents on their own cost and time

if they care so much for preservation of the language they wouldn't refuse such an offer would they?

NewDubliner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why not ask the lobbies for the irish language to translate these documents on their own cost and time

if they care so much for preservation of the language they wouldn't refuse such an offer would they?

It's more than just documents - these need professional, legally-sound translation. It's computer systems and customer service staff. On demand, on equal terms as for people who choose to speak English, regardless of how few people decide to use Irish instead of English.

Permabear

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Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

That's correct, the main political parties in this country are pro-European and are committed to the European project.

If those of us who are less than enthusiastic about the European project can be called eurosceptics then the people who are less than enthusiastic about the Irish project could be called Irishsceptics.

Or Irishrealists...not opposed to Irish really, but only to implementation in its current form...

still amused,
Scofflaw

T runner

NewDubliner wrote: »

Perhaps they derive a this security from a sentiment that they're superior to others? English is the indigenous language of the majority of the population. You've chosen Irish, picking on a particular part of an ancestral heritage that stretches back many thousands of years and freezing it as if Irish-speakers sprang forth from the original Garden of Eden.

I am referring to living indiginous languages of which there are two.
If you have languages pre gaelic and English that you think should be included as indiginous, apologies and please reveal them.

As the Irish language is quite unique to Ireland, native speakers Irishness is different to English speakers Irishness and due to the language distinction alone could be classified as more distinctly Irish, Could it not?

I have said that there are different types of Irishness which is plainly true as there are different Irish cultures.

Would you for instance classify northern protestants as a different type of Irish to say western Irish speaking Roman Catholics.

I would. Im not saying one is superior, I am saying they are different which is perfectly legitimate.

Which of our ancestral religions have you chosen? Religion is a an important part of cultural identity. Are you a Pagan, pre-schismatic Christian, Tridentine or post Vatican II Roman Catholic? What was the reason for your choice?

Most of the religions in Ireland are world religions (counting Church of Ireland as Anglican). Presbtarianism is confined to Ireland and Scotland mainly so quite indiginous.

A presbytarian from Donegal might have a different view of his Irishness to say someone of Jewish faith from Dublin City. Fair enough?

That may be how it appears to you and perhaps it helps your personal sense of 'Irishness' to look down on others whose culture you feel is inferior ?

Where have I looked down on anyone?

I was answering a post which claimed that some northern Catholics were insecure about their nationality as evidenced by having tri-colours.

I pointed out that a better example of insecurity could be found by some northern protestants having Union flags in their estates even though NI is officially part of UK of GB and NI.

Now you're generalising about people who are different from you. The Irish identity is much more sophisticated and cosmopolitan than you see.

How do you know Im generalising about people that are different from me?
I watch ManU and often Coronation street. Thats part of my culture: its just not as rich as what I perceive to be a culture more based on interpersonal relationships and social interaction. Im not counting pub culture here.

Ah yes, every time an awkward question comes up, such as 'are we getting VFM for funds spent on Irish?', the response is to accuse people of hating Irish

Please dont deliberately take my posts out of context. I was answering to a poster who claimed that all Irish speakers were anglophobic fenians.
I commented that a lot of the posters against the Irish language seemed to come to that point of view unreasonably due to a dislike of nationalism. We are talking about language here.

If you dislike the politicals of people who speak Punjabi is that a reason for wishing Punjabi not to be spoken anymore?

Kevo

I will leave this country if Irish is still mandatory when I have children. I think it is a waste of time and resources. I'm only 23 atm so hopefully this decision is a long way off for me.


Education in language is far better on the mainland. They teach useful languages instead of a dead language which some people have an attachment to.

RedPlanet

Kevo wrote: »

I will leave this country if Irish is still mandatory when I have children. I think it is a waste of time and resources. I'm only 23 atm so hopefully this decision is a long way off for me.


Education in language is far better on the mainland. They teach useful languages instead of a dead language which some people have an attachment to.

I hear you Kevo.
But i wouldn't encourage you to leave for that reason:
The Gaelgoirs would count your leaving as their victory: their exclusionary policy and views (that they are "more Irish" than the likes of yourself) would be vindicated. Their policies would have successfully expelled someone "not really irish" from these holy shores.

It's probably going to take the vast majority of us to organise and lobby these ingrained political parties (FG in particular) to change their policy. And Repel the Official Languages Act 2003.
Which is a long shot.

T runner

Scofflaw wrote: »

'Pub nationalism' is the nationalism of someone who is a verbal 'patriot', who may even be aggressively 'patriotic' or nationalist as long as all that is required is knee-jerk tribalism, but who is actually unlikely ever to put the interests of the country before his own.

I wouldn't consider non-native-speaker Gaelgoiri to be quite at that level, but I would see there as being certain similarities - people whose 'preservation of Irish culture' doesn't extend to not living in a TV-mediated British pseudoculture, and whose expression of patriotism or nationalism is largely confined to the verbal.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I disagree to some degree. The amount of people who are now educating their children in Irish speaking national schools is on a sharp rise.
They want their children to have Irish but dont believe this will be achieved in the normal school education system.

Many people want to support Irish but dont know how.
Radical ideas need to be used to see how these children can continue using Irish post school.

There are some pub bull****ters but I think their bull**** is sprayed across all their range of interests whether they be the Irish language or whatever.

The TV culture is obviously a huge issue in itself. Many people in Switzerland watch German TV or French depending on their native language but I thik the issue is far greater here, given our proximity to Britain and our relative sizes.

Scofflaw

T runner wrote: »

I disagree to some degree. The amount of people who are now educating their children in Irish speaking national schools is on a sharp rise.
They want their children to have Irish but dont believe this will be achieved in the normal school education system.

Many people want to support Irish but dont know how.
Radical ideas need to be used to see how these children can continue using Irish post school.

There are some pub bull****ters but I think their bull**** is sprayed across all their range of interests whether they be the Irish language or whatever.

The TV culture is obviously a huge issue in itself. Many people in Switzerland watch German TV or French depending on their native language but I thik the issue is far greater here, given our proximity to Britain and our relative sizes.

Would it not concern you that people might feel that by learning Irish, or having their kids learn Irish, they can feel they've "done their bit" and need do no more for the preservation of Irish culture?

cordially,
Scofflaw

O'Morris

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

My late-nineteenth-century model of "Irishness"? I wasn't aware that I was presenting any model of "Irishness". Can you explain what exactly you understand to be my model of "Irishness"? And how does your model of "Irishness" differ from mine?

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I get the impression that you're the kind of gent who feels you really need to emphasise just how cosmopolitan and how "above nationalism" you are in order to prove something to people. It's a kind of conspicuous cosmopolitanism that puts people like you continually on the lookout for strawman-nationalists.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

What are you on about? Where have I ever said that someone who fits the above description is less authentically Irish than anyone else?

I'm anti-provo and I've read plenty of Russian novels but like most Irish people I would still like to see the day when my country will be united and self-governing and in which the Irish language is widely spoken. I can't see how the speaking of French or the watching of Sex and the city is in any way in conflict with that.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I consider myself to be an unromantic nationalist.

Scofflaw wrote:

Or Irishrealists...not opposed to Irish really, but only to implementation in its current form...

The same could be said of eurosceptics. It's not that we're opposed to Europe, it's just that we're opposed to the method by which European co-operation is being achieved. I think the European project is being driven by an outdated idealism that is beginning to appear anachronistic. In the same way, many Irishsceptics see the Irish project as being driven by an outdated idealism that is beginning to appear anachronistic.

I'm opposed to the implementation of the Irish language in its current form in the educational system because I think it's counter-productive. I don't place myself in the same category as the Irishsceptics because unlike them I'm strongly in favour of us making an effort to preserve and revive the language. Like most Irish people I consider the Irish language to be an important part of our identity and I want to see it survive into the future.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Insular, parochial, and often explicitly xenophobic, it confers no recognition whatsoever on the Irish citizen who speaks French, does yoga, reads Russian novels, watches Sex and the City, and believes that the disastrous "project" of Irish reunification has led only to pointless decades of terror and bloodshed. It merely tells such a person that she is not "authentic" enough to call herself Irish.

But we have a better Ireland now than anything ever envisioned by the romantic nationalists.[/QUOTE]

Steady on there! Speak only for yourself! A majority of people in Ireland favour Unity, by peaceful means.Reunification does not necessarily mean bloodshead. Partition (meant only as a temporary solution) has arguably been responsible for the polarisation of the two Irelands and the catholic uprising of the late sixties early seventies.

Why bloodshed continued after 1975 is a matter for Sinn Fein and the DUP who both rejected sunningdale 75 but accepted sunningdale 2008.

Many people would argue that the existance of a land border with the UK has now meant that Rep of Ireland has to live with an economic parasite attached to her body. Better off with teh Irish sea between us and the UK no?

donegalfella wrote: »

Even the most ambitiously distorted government report claims that only 3 percent of the Irish population speaks Irish on a daily basis. What of the other 97 percent? We are ... what, exactly? Less than Irish but not quite English?

Yes we are all equally Irish from a political point of view but there are different types of Irish culurally. Simple stuff.

Someone who speaks French could also be Canadian, Swiss, or Belgian, and be deeply resentful of your calling him "French."

But may not be resentful of calling them French Canadian which might accurately describe their culture. There are different types of Canadians just as their are different types of Irish.

T runner

Kevo wrote: »

I will leave this country if Irish is still mandatory when I have children. I think it is a waste of time and resources. I'm only 23 atm so hopefully this decision is a long way off for me.

No Kevin you will do whats best for your family, unless you are irresponsible. Uprooting your family because of a dislike of yours would be selfish. Saying you would do it would be immature.

Education in language is far better on the mainland. They teach useful languages instead of a dead language which some people have an attachment to

Your feeble attempt at antagonism if your mainland comment meant "Britain" is also immature and proves the point that most of the Irish slammers here are that way for political reasons which have nothing to do with the language.
Grow up.

RedPlanet

T runner wrote: »

...and proves the point that most of the Irish slammers here are that way for political reasons which have nothing to do with the language.

An ironic comment as compelling people to learn a dead language is certainly a political decision. It certainly is not an economic one as we reap no reward for our investment.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

RedPlanet wrote: »

An ironic comment as compelling people to learn a dead language is certainly a political decision. It certainly is not an economic one as we reap no reward for our investment.

Obviously Irish is not a dead language so your comment is meaningless.

I think the debate has moved passed the point where people are still claiming the language as dead. (If youre trying to be antagonistic it hasnt any effect in me bar me considering you as immature.)

T runner

Scofflaw wrote: »

Would it not concern you that people might feel that by learning Irish, or having their kids learn Irish, they can feel they've "done their bit" and need do no more for the preservation of Irish culture?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes that is a worry. However, doing there bit has now improved to sending their kids to Irish speaking schools, which will mean we have many Irish speakers in 10 years or so.

They will need outlets to continue their Irish afterwards and this would need radical thought given the high level of agressive prejudice against the language by a sizeable minority.


Judging by the dwindling numbers sitting in pubs and the ever growing numbers out and about being more actively social (the phenomenal running groups explosion for example) this generation are starting to look like doers rather than sayers.