Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

MysticalRain

T runner wrote: »

Obviously Irish is not a dead language so your comment is meaningless.

I think the debate has moved passed the point where people are still claiming the language as dead. (If youre trying to be antagonistic it hasnt any effect in me bar me considering you as immature.)

I think it's fair to say that the language is dead if only a miniscule percentage of the population can actually speak it and concerted efforts to revive it over the last 20 years have failed miserably. The kindest thing you could say about the language is that it's on life support.

NewDubliner

T runner wrote: »

As the Irish language is quite unique to Ireland, native speakers Irishness is different to English speakers Irishness and due to the language distinction alone could be classified as more distinctly Irish, Could it not?[.... have said that there are different types of Irishness which is plainly true as there are different Irish cultures.

The question is this - are you just interested in preserving a modernernised version of Irish, homegenised from numerous dialects?

Surely a culture's essence is how the people live? So why not also restore the ancient Pagan Gaelic religions, or set up a Christian monastic community?

Or are you an 'A la Carte' Gealgeoir, just picking profitable activities such as forcing government services to be provided in Irish?

O'Morris

donegalfella wrote:

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That's correct. I would much rather live in an Ireland in which Irish people made up the majority of the population than live in an Ireland in which we were a minority of the population.

donegalfella wrote:

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I consider my country to be the entire island of Ireland.

donegalfella wrote:

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Does the fact that there are so many fat women in America mean that most women in America don't want to be thin?

Herbal Deity

O'Morris wrote: »

That's correct. I would much rather live in an Ireland in which Irish people made up the majority of the population than live in an Ireland in which we were a minority of the population.

Why is race so important to you?

O'Morris

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Why is race so important to you?

It's not so important to me. I've never even mentioned race.

An Ireland in which Irish people are the majority is very important to me. I would like Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now. Wouldn't you?

NewDubliner

O'Morris wrote: »

An Ireland in which Irish people are the majority is very important to me. I would like Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now. Wouldn't you?

How many years must someone and their family live in Ireland before you consider them to be Irish? 10, 50, 100, 700?

sceptre

Watch me wave the big flag and pull out the pace car.

This thread isn't about race.

It's about the Irish language.

And don't be trying to link the two in some deft sleight of hand. Posting about national identity and how it should be treated is obviously relevant to the thread but posting about race isn't. At least not in this universe. If you don't get the difference, perhaps you shouldn't be posting but to make it blunt, anything to do with the phrase "ethnically Irish" leads the thread to a point where a different thread works best. I am replying on you to use your heads. Wisely. Razor blades in the apples for those who can't do that.

There's already at least one current (other) thread that is about people from different places. Go post about race there.

Watch out for the pace car (see what I did there?). It drives over tangent-agenda posters at times.

That's a moderator instruction. For good reason.

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

@sceptre

it was proclaimed earlier that not knowing the Irish language

somehow makes someone less Irish a "lesser shade"

the racist overtones were introduced into the thread there and then by certain poster

im still fuming over that btw

bonkey

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@sceptre

it was proclaimed earlier that not knowing the Irish language

somehow makes someone less Irish a "lesser shade"

the racist overtones were introduced into the thread there and then by certain poster

im still fuming over that btw

There is a well-established process for making complaints and escalating them if you feel the response is ineadquate

Back-answering a moderator in-thread isn't part of that.

You've been around long enough that you have no excuse for not being aware of this.

ei.sdraob

bonkey wrote: »

There is a well-established process for making complaints and escalating them if you feel the response is ineadquate

Back-answering a moderator in-thread isn't part of that.

You've been around long enough that you have no excuse for not being aware of this.

i just highlighted that the thread took a turn for the worse many pages back already

bleh heck with this

Sleazus

T runner wrote: »

Yes that is a worry. However, doing there bit has now improved to sending their kids to Irish speaking schools, which will mean we have many Irish speakers in 10 years or so.

I love the fact that "doing their bit" doesn't involve engaging with the culture themselves, but indoctrinating their children in it. I also note the possessive "we have".

That isn't Irish for the benefit of those learning it. This is Irish for the benefit of the Gealgor agenda.

Soldie

O'Morris wrote: »

I would much rather live in an Ireland in which Irish people made up the majority of the population than live in an Ireland in which we were a minority of the population.

Can you explain what you mean by "Irish people"?

Permabear

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mcmoustache

As a connemara man who is active in promoting the language i'll add my voice. I haven't read all the posts so apologies if this is redundant.

Yes, we do spend way too much translating those documents. First of all I can't read any of that stuff. They are all full of newly created words and I'd need to spend hours with a dictionary to figure out what's in them. If a document takes me 30 minutes to read in english, it would probably take me 2 hours to read it in Irish. The only one who could read it is probably the translator and he'd need to get the dictionary out as well. It's simply more practical to read the english version. And there's no Irish speaker who could read it who couldn't get a better understanding of it's meaning in English.

Don't get me wrong, the language is completely alive. I live in dublin these days but I still get to speak Irish with around half of the people in my normal weekly life. At home it's with almost everyone and I'm delighted to be able to do it. But, and I hoped I could go longer on boards without mentioning it, the country's fúcked for the next few years and we shouldn't be spending busketloads on translations nobody really wants outside of academia.
If a person can read such a document, they are highly educated and guaranteed to have better english so it's not like they'll die if they don't get the paper.
If academics need the papers, let their colleges pay if they feel it's worth it (I know that many are part-financed by the state but if the cost came from their budgets, they would at least make sure that there was an interest in the translation before spending money on it)

So, err, yes, if you asked whether we spend too much money on this or not.

PaulieD

Kevo wrote: »

Education in language is far better on the mainland.

Good points, Kevo, but I want to concentrate on this single sentence. The majority of us on this thread spent 13/14 years studying Irish but the majority of us are not fluent in the language. Why is that? I can speak it, but am far from fluent. Is that because of our *teaching methods? Maybe we could look to our european neighbours(especially the dutch) to help improve our teaching of languages, not just Irish?





*Before, I put it down to my lack of language skills, but I am now competent in the Czech language after studying it off my own back for seven months.

PaulieD

Soldie wrote: »

Can you explain what you mean by "Irish people"?

People born to Irish citizens.

Permabear

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nesf

donegalfella wrote: »

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I doubt there are really. Technical documents being translated into Irish doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. The only real exception is legal documents because Irish has equal standing to English in law and there needs to be exact translations possible for laws for this reason. And of course EU legislation since it's an official language now (makes no sense to me).

I would be genuinely curious though as to how much is actually spent on translating such documents.

That said, I don't really have any issue with there being an Irish translation of something like a Census form available for people who want to avail of such.

sceptre

PaulieD wrote: »

Good points, Kevo, but I want to concentrate on this single sentence. The majority of us on this thread spent 13/14 years studying Irish but the majority of us are not fluent in the language. Why is that? I can speak it, but am far from fluent. Is that because of our *teaching methods? Maybe we could look to our european neighbours(especially the dutch) to help improve our teaching of languages, not just Irish?

My quick view has always been that the problem exists because we essentially insist on teaching Irish as if people already know it. The curriculum is geared towards teaching it as though it's their native language. Realistically it should be taught to people using the same methods we use for foreign languages.

That means splitting the course into two different ones. One retains the poetry and prose currently on the course, the other does not. Expecting the majority of people aged 15-18 to appreciate the subtleties and undertones of Irish-Gaelic prose is laughable. Pupils learning French or Spanish don't spend those teaching hours working through assigned examinable prose and hence get to spend those teaching hours working on syntax and vocab.

It's worth noting that students learning continental languages aren't confronted with assigned novels etc until they're at university, at which point their understanding is expected to be higher than leaving cert level.

it's not difficult - it just requires finally admitting that the majority of Irish people are not fluent in their former native tongue. We can admit that and give people reasonable working comprehension of the language, allowing people to speak it and learn more of it or carry on with the same charade for the next century until we finally throw it away because at that point no-one speaks it.

And as I said back in 2005 or 2006, having Irish as an official language of the EU is a waste and a nod to looking like an effort is being made rather than making one - if it had instead officially been classified as a lesser-used regional language at any point since 1973 there would be EU funding available for its development, preservation and teaching. But successive Irish governments have been too proud and too stupid to admit that they don't have a language policy for Irish that might actually help people to speak it or help people to want to. They're far more interested in either ignoring it or pretending that everything is OK by keeping the current curriculum and systems in place. Let's have a quick look at what would now be considered Gaeltacht: 2007. Compare it with what would have made the grade in 1926 if we'd defined the areas then. Bit of a difference, huh? Now, I fully appreciate the lack of need of Irish people to demonstrate their Irishness by speaking Irish: the Irish diaspora are often more interested in irish culture because they use it to state their identity in their chosen homelands. Ditto with people who come here and re-embrace their original culture. it's the way it works. But check out the difference in the green areas on that map. I've had the same view on the way Irish should be taught since appreciating the differences when I did my leaving cert and that was 16 years ago. It's not the pupils/students/ it's what they're being taught and the time wasted on what they should really be learning at the later level should they choose to embrace it and continue. Do that and you can keep it compulsory. Actually, do that and you won't have to. That'll change most of the negative attitude within one generation. But hey, doesn't it look better when you look like you're doing something instead of actually doing it?

nesf

sceptre wrote: »

My quick view has always been that the problem exists because we essentially insist on teaching Irish as if people already know it. The curriculum is geared towards teaching it as though it's their native language. Realistically it should be taught to people using the same methods we use for foreign languages.

Got it in one. That said, such a course would be abysmally easy for any native speaker thus provoking the question of whether they should be allowed sit such an exam.

O'Morris

nesf wrote:

I would be genuinely curious though as to how much is actually spent on translating such documents.

Around 7 million has been spent on translations in the 6 six years since the official languages act was passed into law in 2003
http://www.intercelt.ie/index.php?page=clippings&id=4668&viewby=date

That works out at around 1.17 million a year. Assuming we have a million taxpayers in this country that means that every taxpayer is spending just over a euro a year on translating documents into Irish.

I think money spent on translating documents into Irish is justified as it keeps standards in the language high and it keeps the language up to date. By being forced to translate complex technical documents into Irish, translators are made to exert themselves to develop a modern vocabulary and a modern idiom for the language. As well as that, translation provides employment for Irish language graduates. If the demand for translation is taken away, there is much less incentive for people to do Irish at third-level and that have well have further negative consequences for the language.

I think cutting a few million from the Irish language budget for teaching the masses would save more money and would probably do less damage to the language. Quality is much more important than quantity.

ei.sdraob

PaulieD wrote: »

People born to Irish citizens.

and people who were naturalized here after working here for over a decade
are not Irish?

Permabear

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Benhonan

nesf wrote: »

Got it in one. That said, such a course would be abysmally easy for any native speaker thus provoking the question of whether they should be allowed sit such an exam.

I'd like to point out that I have a cousin living in a Gaeltacht in Cuil Aodh who is highly academic and has perfectly fluent Irish (his father is Peadar O'Riada, his grandfather Sean). He didn't get an A1 in his leaving cert, even though he got As in other subjects. He got a B1 for his Irish essay, probably because his standard of Irish was far higher than the correcter who couldn't make sense of it. Most people from that Gaeltacht don't get A1s in Irish, from what I can see the people who get A1s are generally girls in private schools with very little language who can rote learn what is necessary for the course.

Also what is wrong with having it easy for native speakers? 90% of people who sit the Russian exam get an A1, why? Because they're all Russian.

getz

as i see it in the not to long future teaching irish and english in schools may well be a high cost problem,as ireland becomes a multi-culture country many more children will be comming into the schools unable to speak a word of english or irish,the cost in the UK alone in having specially trained teachers is very high,so i imagine i would take up a lot of school time and money to teach him both irish and english, one of my nephews when first starting school in england could only speak spanish, for the first two years he was kept in a lower level class untill his english improved enought for him to catch up, can ireland afford it ?and which language would you drop irish or english ?

ei.sdraob

getz wrote: »

as i see it in the not to long future teaching irish and english in schools may well be a high cost problem,as ireland becomes a multi-culture country many more children will be comming into the schools unable to speak a word of english or irish,the cost in the UK alone in having specially trained teachers is very high,so i imagine i would take up a lot of school time and money to teach him both irish and english, one of my nephews when first starting school in england could only speak spanish, for the first two years he was kept in a lower level class untill his english improved enought for him to catch up, can ireland afford it ?and which language would you drop irish or english ?

students who go to school (primary) and dont know english

are put back a year, they dont have to do irish (exempt but are given a choice, which no one takes tbh)

it takes a year for a child surrounded by other kids to learn english quite well


ive seen it happen

which makes you wonder why someone can learn English so quickly but not Irish after 12 years?

getz

ei.sdraob wrote: »

students who go to school (primary) and dont know english

are put back a year, they dont have to do irish (exempt but are given a choice, which no one takes tbh)

it takes a year for a child surrounded by other kids to learn english quite well


ive seen it happen

which makes you wonder why someone can learn English so quickly but not Irish after 12 years?

i think thats to do with the media and every day life,they watch english on tv,listen to english language music ect,ireland reminds me a lot of,quebec in canada,a french speaking part of canada,all around are english speakers,it costs a lot of money to keep french going,but as more and more english speakers are moving into the cities,you find that most people in the streets only speak english.when i was at school in the UK the languages we were supposed to learn were french/spanish/and in those early days esperanto,i married a native spanish speaker,i have lived with her for over 40 years,and i still[dispite going to spanish classes a one time]cannot speak it.

nesf

Benhonan wrote: »

I'd like to point out that I have a cousin living in a Gaeltacht in Cuil Aodh who is highly academic and has perfectly fluent Irish (his father is Peadar O'Riada, his grandfather Sean). He didn't get an A1 in his leaving cert, even though he got As in other subjects. He got a B1 for his Irish essay, probably because his standard of Irish was far higher than the correcter who couldn't make sense of it. Most people from that Gaeltacht don't get A1s in Irish, from what I can see the people who get A1s are generally girls in private schools with very little language who can rote learn what is necessary for the course.

Also what is wrong with having it easy for native speakers? 90% of people who sit the Russian exam get an A1, why? Because they're all Russian.

I was questioning whether it'd be ok for a native speaker to be allowed take Irish if it was converted into a basic language introduction course like the foreign language courses on offer at Leaving Cert level. Surely it'd be fairly obvious that it'd be a pointless waste of their time to do such a course?

Herbal Deity

Benhonan wrote: »

I'd like to point out that I have a cousin living in a Gaeltacht in Cuil Aodh who is highly academic and has perfectly fluent Irish (his father is Peadar O'Riada, his grandfather Sean). He didn't get an A1 in his leaving cert, even though he got As in other subjects. He got a B1 for his Irish essay, probably because his standard of Irish was far higher than the correcter who couldn't make sense of it. Most people from that Gaeltacht don't get A1s in Irish, from what I can see the people who get A1s are generally girls in private schools with very little language who can rote learn what is necessary for the course.

Also what is wrong with having it easy for native speakers? 90% of people who sit the Russian exam get an A1, why? Because they're all Russian.

+1

nesf, that's like saying kids whose parents teach them French or a higher standard of Maths than the school curriculum from a young age should have to sit a harder exam in those respective subjects.