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Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

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    #32
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #33
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    pawrick wrote: »
    money would have been better spent on sending children to a gaeltacht for a week.


    +1 on this


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    #34
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    No, I am talking about the "multiculturalism" of the people who are, by disposition, against the Irish language (and Irish Ireland culture generally), but who like to claim to be in favour of Japanese, Chinese and all sorts of other multicultural things.
    Ah yes, the imaginary enemy who is 'against' Irish. No doubt to qualify as such an 'enemy' you just have to question whether or not money spent on Irish is good value.

    Now in addition to the millions wasted on unused services in Irish, way out of proportion to the demand for them, you want a slice of a 'multiculturalism' budget.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    There is also the minor matter of the reality of hundreds of thousands of people speaking the language everyday, of
    You have great imagination.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    tens of thousands of Irish tax-paying parents sending their children to Irish language schools.
    That's because the Irish schools are better funded.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    And much, much else.
    And much, much more money too.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    They, whether some people here like it or not, have the same rights in Ireland as English speakers who are ranting and raving against state funding for the Irish language (but quiet as mice about Irish state funding for the English language).
    Nobody is 'ranting and raving'. Logical questions are being put about the effective use of money when it is in such short supply. The era of easy money for the Irish language industry is at and. Now it must justify itself. That's entirely rational.

    Services are provided in English because that language is spoken by everyone who lives here and therefore, it's the most cost-effective way to deliver them. For the sake of the economy, the Irish lobby should put its ego to one side and accept the minor indignity of communicating with fellow citizens who don't speak Irish, in English.


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    #35
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sand wrote: »
    As DF noted, just repeal the official languages status and you save hundreds of millions a year.

    Imagine how many cancer tests could be done on young girls with the money saved? Whats the better part of our national identity? Providing for those tests, or telling the victims of cutbacks they wont be getting taken care of...in Irish. Wont somebody think of the children?

    So much of taxpayer money is diverted into utter economic blackholes with no good purpose when actual needs are being hindered.

    Blame the Irish language for all the woes in Ireland. How original. Why not aim that at the real causes - shady bankers and shady politicians. Not an ancient and historical language.

    The Irish language is a distinct part of our nation, and an as an official language in this country - it must be catered for. It is unique to this Island.

    You don't see the Swiss complaining about the 3 or 4 languages in their country. Multilingualism survives just fine. And why is there no complaints about the translations into Polish in this thread? While I personally don't have a problem with Irish or Polish translations, I would like to see a bit of consistency - instead of the same old, anti-Irish brigade.

    Now while I agree entirely on "wasted" resources - I think that Irish should be funded, and funded even further. I would like to see an Irish language centre in every major town and city in this country, because as it stands - it's currently only an official language by name.

    I speak Irish, and I want documents made available to me in Irish. If you don't like it, create a petition and try and get a referendum going on the issue. I would LOVE to see a referendum run, because I'm 100% certain the Irish people would back and support the Irish language, in an overwhelming manner.

    Show me one poll that has ever suggested that this anti-Irish sentiment is from anything more than a small minority in this state. That's right, a small minority. You will in your arse dictate what the majority of the people in this country want. Ask any parent if they would like Gaeilge removed from our curriculum - 9 out of 10 of them will support it, every time.

    That's how the cookie crumbles. If you don't like paying tax for Gaeilge, you're more than welcome to move to Britain.. Oh wait, they pay tax for Scottish and Welsh! How about Spain? Nope, they pay taxes for Basque and other minority languages.. Multilingualism is a natural occurance in nearly every country in the world.

    Beir bua! Gaeilge abú!


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    #36
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,253 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's because the Irish schools are better funded.
    Well, that and a virtual guarantee of 100 free points for the exams that matriculate Irish students for university places...


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    #37
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's because the Irish schools are better funded.

    Nonsense. Our local gaelscoil is a handful of prefabs. They have the reputation for providing excellent education and that reputation is true and valid. It's not because they receive more funds.


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    #38
    Blackjack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭Blackjack


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Well, that and a virtual guarantee of 100 free points for the exams that matriculate Irish students for university places...

    proof please


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    #39
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You don't see the Swiss complaining about the 3 or 4 languages in their country.
    This would be because significant sections of the country are descended from the relevant ethnicities and
    speaks each language as a native language and not as an artificial re-introduction.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I would like to see an Irish language centre in every major town and city in this country, because as it stands - it's currently only an official language by name.
    If there were a genuine demand for this, the ciiizens of each town would have already accomplished this for themselves.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I speak Irish, and I want documents made available to me in Irish.
    And if it means a child does not get an essential operation, because the Irish lobby got a budget increase, it's a small sacrifice for Ireland.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm 100% certain the Irish people would back and support the Irish language, in an overwhelming manner.
    That would depend on what question were put to them - e.g, "Will you pay 5% more tax so that all services are available in Irish?"
    dlofnep wrote: »
    You will in your arse dictate what the majority of the people in this country want.
    That's what the Irish language industry is telling the rest of us.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    If you don't like paying tax for Gaeilge, you're more than welcome to move to Britain..
    The question is how much money should be spent? But, I suppose the Irish language industry does not want to negotiate, it's all or nothing?


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    #40
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    whatdoicare wrote: »
    Great, now you're calling me a man, well done.
    Don't pull that "National Identity" card on me, we've all just given that up to the Lisbon treaty in the hopes they'll pull our A** out of the fire.


    Now your just getting daft. Your saying we have no national identity because we voted lisbon and yet your trying to get rid of one of the main thing that identifies us.

    There is no discussion to be had with you really.


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    #41
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    This would be because significant sections of the country are descended from the relevant ethnicities and
    speaks each language as a native language and not as an artificial re-introduction.

    I suppose you've never heard of the Gaeltacht.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    If there were a genuine demand for this, the ciiizens of each town would have already accomplished this for themselves.

    With what exactly, buttons and thread? Belfast and Derry have one - and they both have had great success. But yet, we can't get one in the south when it's already an official language?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    And if it means a child does not get an essential operation, because the Irish lobby got a budget increase, it's a small sacrifice for Ireland.

    Look, that's a nonsense argument. Funds for Irish are not the problem with our health system. The greedy bankers and the politicians are what has soaked up our wealth. It's stupid to try and associate healthcare problems with Irish language funding.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That would depend on what question were put to them - e.g, "Will you pay 5% more tax so that all services are available in Irish?"

    Well, it would be up to you as a campaigner to inform them of the costs of the language - I'm still 100% sure it would pass.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's what the Irish language industry is telling the rest of us.

    No, it's not. That's what the majority of the people in Ireland have told us, time and time again through a myriad of different polls.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The question is how much money should be spent? But, I suppose the Irish language industry does not want to negotiate, it's all or nothing?

    Of course there should be a limit on the amount of funding for ANYTHING. I wouldn't like to see funds spent unwisely on stupid things - and I'd much rather that they were spent on actual productive areas within the language.


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    #42
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I suppose you've never heard of the Gaeltacht.
    How many people live there and what langauges do they use in their daily lives?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    With what exactly, buttons and thread? Belfast and Derry have one - and they both have had great success. But yet, we can't get one in the south when it's already an official language?
    If people want it badly enough, they'll make it happen. It's not as if forming an Irish-language club or enthusiasts holding conversation classes was forbidden.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's stupid to try and associate healthcare problems with Irish language funding.
    It's stupid that the Irish language does not want to engage in discussion of economic priorities. The standard tactic always seems to be: "Why do you Hate Irish?", a sure way to stymie informed debate.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well, it would be up to you as a campaigner to inform them of the costs of the language
    What question would you put to the electorate? e.g. 'Do you like Irish?':rolleyes:
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it's not. That's what the majority of the people in Ireland have told us, time and time again through a myriad of different polls.
    As I recall it that 'myriad' consisted of a couple of loaded 'boards' polls and one poll, claimed to have been published by the ESRI, which turned out to be a privately funded & published poll (by the Irish lobby) using questions set by... the Irish lobby and then wildly mis-interpreted (by, you guessed it...the Irish langauge lobby), and launched enthusiasticaly by Minsister O'Cuiv (the Dublin 4 Gaelgeior) as it justified the existence of his own department?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Of course there should be a limit on the amount of funding for ANYTHING. I wouldn't like to see funds spent unwisely on stupid things - and I'd much rather that they were spent on actual productive areas within the language.
    So we can agree on cuts to Irish-language funding and a repeal of the obligation to provide services in Irish?

    Sentiment, not money is what preserves out cultural inheritance.


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    #43
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    What price would do people put on the preservation of the Irish language?

    Some here seem to think that no money what so ever should be spent. I would disagree with that and would suggest it is very much a minority veiw point.

    However the money we do spend should be spent wisely. The publication of all county development plans in Irish keeps the Irish language industry going. It is a direct subsidy from the Irish Government to the language industry. As far as subsidies go its seems fairly modest. Could it be better spent in other areas? I am not so sure.

    Personally I am torn on this issue. On one had I appreciate that it that this looks like a waste. On the other hand I like the idea that I can apply for a passport in Irish, even if I never do. I like to know that I have the option of reading my county development plan in Irish even though I will never even read it in English. Is this nice feeling worth the money we spend? I am not sure.


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    #44
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    Some here seem to think that no money what so ever should be spent.
    Who has proposed that? Which posters said 'no money whatsoever'?
    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    It is a direct subsidy from the Irish Government to the language industry.
    We need that money for more urgent things. Why not let the private sector provide the service to those who require it? Gaelgeoirs can pay the market rate for a first class Irish translation or accept the more economical English language version. The government could waive any copyright charges on the documents. That'd be a small subsidy.
    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    Could it be better spent in other areas? I am not so sure.
    There are many, many more deserving areas.
    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    On the other hand I like the idea that I can apply for a passport in Irish, even if I never do. I like to know that I have the option of reading my county development plan in Irish even though I will never even read it in English. Is this nice feeling worth the money we spend? I am not sure.
    It's nice, but it's a luxury we can no longer afford.

    Spending on Irish should not be slashed, just cut back to sensible amounts.


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    #45
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #46
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Blame the Irish language for all the woes in Ireland. How original. Why not aim that at the real causes - shady bankers and shady politicians. Not an ancient and historical language.

    The Irish language is a distinct part of our nation, and an as an official language in this country - it must be catered for. It is unique to this Island.

    You don't see the Swiss complaining about the 3 or 4 languages in their country. Multilingualism survives just fine. And why is there no complaints about the translations into Polish in this thread? While I personally don't have a problem with Irish or Polish translations, I would like to see a bit of consistency - instead of the same old, anti-Irish brigade.

    Now while I agree entirely on "wasted" resources - I think that Irish should be funded, and funded even further. I would like to see an Irish language centre in every major town and city in this country, because as it stands - it's currently only an official language by name.

    I speak Irish, and I want documents made available to me in Irish. If you don't like it, create a petition and try and get a referendum going on the issue. I would LOVE to see a referendum run, because I'm 100% certain the Irish people would back and support the Irish language, in an overwhelming manner.

    Show me one poll that has ever suggested that this anti-Irish sentiment is from anything more than a small minority in this state. That's right, a small minority. You will in your arse dictate what the majority of the people in this country want. Ask any parent if they would like Gaeilge removed from our curriculum - 9 out of 10 of them will support it, every time.

    That's how the cookie crumbles. If you don't like paying tax for Gaeilge, you're more than welcome to move to Britain.. Oh wait, they pay tax for Scottish and Welsh! How about Spain? Nope, they pay taxes for Basque and other minority languages.. Multilingualism is a natural occurance in nearly every country in the world.

    Beir bua! Gaeilge abú!

    Good way of looking at it. The government has spent the money on the official side of things installing it as a national language and implementing the necessaries that go along with this as with other European national (and regional) languages. Work needs now to go ahead on the side of speaking the language more. There is a huge boom in children been educated in Irish speaking schools. There seems to be an eagerness for parents to have their kids learn Irish. They apparently want the language to live on even if they haven't been able to be as proactive in it themselves up till now. (through no fault of our own).

    People are getting a lot more grounded and proactive in our new situation although I dont see it too often in my rare visits to this forum. (I work in the public service, too busy dossing in the 2.5 jobs Im covering at the moment).



    If certain people have no interest in maintaining the Irish language fair enough. If you feel strong enough that it should be dropped completely I suggest you lobby your local candidates about it at the next general election.
    They may explain to you why its a non runner.

    I'm meeting a lot of people out, positive people who are getting into Irish and seeing the benefit of having two languages in a country. Its good to see that the people who seemingly are so against seem to use their skills bull****ting on forums and barstools. Long may it continue.

    The fact remains that 10 grand is a fierce amount of money to translate a Clare county report. The problem might be a monopoly in the oul translation market.

    Funny that this was not picked up by that particular green councilor. Does Clare CoCo get ripped like that in all their business I wonder?


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    #47
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    murphaph wrote: »
    Interesting piece in the Times. Read it here. Basically Clare county council (like loads of councils in attempting to adhere to the law) spent 30,000 translating 3 development plans about 4 years ago. Not a single copy was ever purchased in Irish. In contrast and for completeness, 190 copies in the English language were bought.

    Did it cost €30k to translate and print x number of documents (how many)? How much did it cost to print the English language documents and did the council make a profit or a loss on it?


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    #48
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    i dont care, the irish language is dear to me, you guys might not give a crap but i do coming from a Gaeltacht

    While we witchhunt for overspending at least have a bit of respect for our culture.

    Why don't you prove you give a crap by getting all your mates on here to buy 30 grands worth of reports in Irish?


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    #49
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    We need that money for more urgent things

    Taken to the logical conclusion, we should also shut all the cultural stuff that costs money as it is needed to prop up the banks


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    #50
    whatdoicare
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Now your just getting daft. Your saying we have no national identity because we voted lisbon and yet your trying to get rid of one of the main thing that identifies us.

    There is no discussion to be had with you really.

    We gave up our sovereignty, did we not?

    The Irish language doesn't identify us- like I stated before, most other countries don't even realise we have a language other than English or that we are separate from the UK for that matter. Just like Wales has their own language that hardly anyone outside Wales knows about or understands and I'm sure it doesn't make the Scottish any less Scottish now that their native language is gone.
    The Irish language isn't the only thing that makes us "Irish" and forcing it down out throats isn't going to make us respect it any more than before.

    I don't hate the language, I actually enjoyed learning it when in junior and senior enfants, but really bad memories of stressful points related exams later on made me well and truely dislike it and now I have very little or nothing to do with it.

    Yet, I delight in researching Irish history, culture, art, music and folklore- amazing that. So, in the end, if it was really as important as you make out- we'd all just speak it, no forcing necessary.


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    #51
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    whatdoicare wrote: »
    and I'm sure it doesn't make the Scottish any less Scottish now that their native language is gone.
    .

    Nearly gone but not dead yet. In fact, if you go Hill Walking (or Munro bagging) in Scotland, you will even learn some Scottish!


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    #52
    whatdoicare
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Nearly gone but not dead yet. In fact, if you go Hill Walking (or Munro bagging) in Scotland, you will even learn some Scottish!
    Really?? That's awesome, never heard it spoken myself- may have to plan a holiday :)


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    #53
    brianwalshcork
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭brianwalshcork


    Can we get a poll so that people can vote whether they think it's worthwhile or not?


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    #54
    LimeFruitGum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭LimeFruitGum


    I have worked in translation for many years and believe me, 99% of the time, the Irish semi-states/co. councils always pick the cheapest quote.

    They're only waking up to the fact now, that it is possible to make further savings by using special translation software, where you don't pay for repeated words or segments that have already been translated.

    Annual reports and accounts don't change that much year after year. After one or two reports, you might only have to translate 30-50% of the next report from scratch, so there are good savings to be made.

    I know a few translation companies, who are nothing more than file forwarders, who make their freelancers use translation software, but don't bother passing on the savings and charge the customer full whack.

    You don't have to translate every single thing under the act. Certain key items like the Annual report, accounts etc must be made available in both languages, but it is up to the institution after that if they want to translate other things too.

    Mes deux cents...


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    #55
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Murph I need to ask you a straight question.

    Do you honestly care!

    Why i ask is

    One you quote Amhaine Nua which is a new irish party with an emphises on the irish language

    Quote

    An increased emphasis on teaching the Irish language. Many international universities also offer Irish language, culture and history courses, so there is an opportunity to create a market for the Irish language. The intention would also be to increase the number of Gaelscoils in order to reduce the waiting lists for these

    Two: Your living in berlin by your avaitor which means you rely on us for your understanding of the irish language

    Three: Your quoting the times. Which lets call a spade a spade. Its more english than the german queen!


    Are you trolling. Honestly.


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    #56
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    whatdoicare wrote: »
    Really?? That's awesome, never heard it spoken myself- may have to plan a holiday :)


    Mainly through learning the mountain/hill names as they are all in Gaelic ;)


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    #57
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Two: Your living in berlin by your avaitor which means you rely on us for your understanding of the irish language

    I presume he is an Irish man living in Berlin. Murphy is not a common surname in Germany.


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    #58
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,848 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Now your just getting daft. Your saying we have no national identity because we voted lisbon and yet your trying to get rid of one of the main thing that identifies us.

    There is no discussion to be had with you really.
    I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Many countries have no language of their own (and thusly, are not trying to force an artificial language down their people's throats) and it doesn't make them any less unique or nationalistic.

    The U.S. & Austria have no national languages yet they have unique identities - you don't think Vienna is in Southern Germany - and most of Switzerland's languages are foreign. Yet they all have very strong identities.

    As an example, try telling an American, who drives a pickup truck, has a zillion American flags on his lawn, and just bought another Country & Western CD in WalMart, just coming home from a baseball game, has a family member in the military, that he's in any way less American because he speaks English - I guarantee you that you will get a very short answer.

    Switzerland - a large portion of the Swiss population speaks German, but while Germany elected the National Socialists in the 1930s and they later pursued a programme of "reunification" with other German speaking peoples - which were often embraced in the foreign territories - the Nazi party of Switzerland recieved 2% or less of the vote in any election they contested. Switzerland also managed to stay out of WWII despite its perilous location because of their large military, and their united-ness as a people even though most of them spoke "foreign" languages including German.

    Ireland is much the same. we could do very well without our so called "language" which was primarily a leftover of DeVelera's vision of an agrarian nation controlled by the Church, comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and all the rest of it.
    Indeed, in practice, most of us who don't know the language or care too much about it, don't seem to think we're missing much.

    Hmm ... looks like I've just described tobacco smoking!


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    #59
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    i dont care, the irish language is dear to me, you guys might not give a crap but i do coming from a Gaeltacht

    Apparently not dear enough that you would buy a copy of this report.

    Basically it is a massive waste of money.


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    #60
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Who has proposed that? Which posters said 'no money whatsoever'?

    Donegalfella and others have said it is a 'dead language'. I understand from that they wish no money to spent on it.

    Personally I do not see it as a dead language and support state intervention to revive it. Whether this is the best method of doing that I am not sure. I am conflicted.


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    #61
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    The wrong question is being asked here. The question is why did it cost €30k to be translated in the first place?? Surely this could be acheived at a much lower cost and why if there is a requirement for these documents to be produced in Irish is there not someone working within every council and government department who can translate them??

    How much does it cost to publish these things in English and very few people buy them??

    I myself would like to be able to speak Irish. I simply dont have the time to learn and the way we were taught in school was really terrible. It turned people off the language for life in many cases. It will never be used as a real alternative to english in this country but to simply let it fade away and die is dreadful. Irish is part of our history and culture.

    For those playing the money could be better spent card, we have consistently thrown money at the health service for years with little improvement. The amount of money there is not the problem and everyone knows it.


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