Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

NewDubliner

senordingdong wrote: »

Thirty grand to translate the document?
Who the **** transated it? Was it on gold paper?
Even if the council stopped pissing away money like this....they would inevitably piss it away on something else.

Irish language translations are a handy earner for our indigenous cultural superiors.

'Foinse' gets €355,000 a year from the main state-funded quango 'Foras'... a fact not mentioned in the Indo's gushing article.

senordingdong

Intereting indeed.
But as I said, better spent on this then giving Biffo more gold flakes in the drinking fountain.

NewDubliner

senordingdong wrote: »

Intereting indeed.
But as I said, better spent on this then giving Biffo more gold flakes in the drinking fountain.

Or giving a Christmas bonus to pensioners.

senordingdong

Absolutely that would be a better way to spend the money, but in my experience, it never gets spent on anything worh while.

For exampe, impending cuts in the public sector and social welfare...

NewDubliner

senordingdong wrote: »

Absolutely that would be a better way to spend the money, but in my experience, it never gets spent on anything worh while..

That's a novel way to defend wasteful expenditure.

Rebelheart

NewDubliner wrote: »

Or giving a Christmas bonus to pensioners.

That's a novel way to defend a prejudice against Irish.

Rebelheart

eddyc wrote: »

The difference with Irish and the underlying Irish language industry is that people are made to speak it in school whether they like it or not .... The government doesn't have to make silly laws mandating they're [sic] upkeep.

And people are forced to do Shakespeare, Jane Austen and the rest of those pointless dead people when they have to do compulsory English for the Leaving Cert. Needless to say the anti-Irish brigade have no objections to forcing Irish children to do this. The hypocrisy is galling.

Rebelheart

Aard wrote: »

These ones are easily quantifyable. Others are not. E.g. many people (students, teachers, civil servants) have to spend many hours learning something that they will rarely use, time which could have been spent honing another skill that would add to the knowledge economy more substantially.

And in this comment you would be talking about abandoning the current situation where every child sitting the Leaving Cert is forced to study trigonometry? and calculus? and quadratic equations? and Pythagoras's theory? and W.B. Yeats? and O Casey? and Kavanagh?

Let me guess: unlike Irish, these compulsory subjects are somehow worth forcing every child to do, skills which when 'honed' would benefit the knowledge economy more substantially?

Grudaire

(This came to mind when I saw this thread is back)... Anyway:

NewDubliner wrote:

Does this mean that 'Foinse' is no longer subsidised by the taxpayer? Great news, if it's true.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Irish language translations are a handy earner for our indigenous cultural superiors.

'Foinse' gets €355,000 a year from the main state-funded quango 'Foras'... a fact not mentioned in the Indo's gushing article.

Not only did you answer your own question, you did it without any obvious proof. While I believe that they prob are getting money can you back it up please (Especially the amount)?

Rebelheart

RedPlanet wrote: »

For the Gaelgors, it comes down to an insecurity of their identity.

For they, the irish language seems inseperable to their irish identity.
For the majoritiy of the rest of us, this is not case.
We can be irish and not speak the language.

It's rather similiar to nationalist enclaves in parts of the North. There, they cling to symbolisms like the Tri-colour. And they tie this to their identity as irish people and they believe that anything that threatens their symbols is an attack on their identity.

Do the Gaelgors feel that those irish people whom do not speak the language (and let's be honest almost none of us grew up speaking irish), are LESS irish than they?

As you seem to be partial to attacking people, I surmise from your evidently lamentable grasp of the Queen's English that you were not the shining light of English class. In contrast, the vast majority of fluent Irish speakers would almost certainly have been, and you know it. Sour grapes?

Herbal Deity

I'd love to get a tshirt with "Is Breatanach Thiar Mé" on it.

Dannyboy83

Rebelheart wrote: »

And people are forced to do Shakespeare, Jane Austen and the rest of those pointless dead people when they have to do compulsory English for the Leaving Cert. Needless to say the anti-Irish brigade have no objections to forcing Irish children to do this. The hypocrisy is galling.

Not read the rest of the thread, but just wanted to clarify the above point.

Your no longer have to do Shakespeare in the Leaving Cert, (not sure about JC).
I did 'King Lear' because I liked it but I also chose 'Dances with Wolves'. (2000/2001)

Cannot remember what options are with Irish.

Aard

Rebelheart wrote: »

And in this comment you would be talking about abandoning the current situation where every child sitting the Leaving Cert is forced to study trigonometry? and calculus? and quadratic equations? and Pythagoras's theory? and W.B. Yeats? and O Casey? and Kavanagh?

Let me guess: unlike Irish, these compulsory subjects are somehow worth forcing every child to do, skills which when 'honed' would benefit the knowledge economy more substantially?

Wow, defensive! I wasn't actually criticing the amount spent on Irish in my post - rather that nobody else had come up with any figures, so I did a quick search on them. (€3.3m is negligible imo.) I then gave a simple example on the non-monetary cost of the Irish language - its opportunity cost. Nowhere did I say to abolish compulsory Irish. Indeed, had you read my previous posts, I am of the opinion that one of Irish or English be compulsory for students - they can choose to study one or both.



And, fwiw, the English Lit and maths theorems argument is a red herring.

NewDubliner

Cliste wrote: »

Not only did you answer your own question, you did it without any obvious proof. While I believe that they prob are getting money can you back it up please (Especially the amount)?

Story on RTE about the Foinse newspaper to close over funding

The newspaper Foinse is to be closed with the loss of ten full time jobs and over 20 freelance jobs.

The Irish Language weekly had been in negotiation with Foras na Gaeilge on terms for a new contract...

Mr Ó Céidigh said the kind of paper that Foras na Gaeilge were seeking as part of the new contract could not be achieved, in his opinion, while breaking even financially.

He then announced that this weekend's edition of Foinse will be the last.

Ferdie Mac An Fháiligh, CEO of Foras na Gaeilge, said he very much regretted Mr Ó Céidigh's decision.

He said Foinse had €618,000 in reserves, and that the Foras offer of a €1.4m contract, €355,000 a year, amounted to a significant increase.

Is it your position that the new Foinse is being produced without the €355,000 mentioned above? If so, it's great news for the independence of the Irish language movement.

Powerhouse

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Not read the rest of the thread, but just wanted to clarify the above point.

Your no longer have to do Shakespeare in the Leaving Cert, (not sure about JC).
I did 'King Lear' because I liked it but I also chose 'Dances with Wolves'. (2000/2001)

Cannot remember what options are with Irish.

Your point is marginal, irrelevant and pedantic in contradiction of a point that an awful lot of apparently pointless (if you are a utilitarian) stuff is being taught in English and it is a compulsory subject even though we are all native speakers.

But your "clarification" is also incorrect. This is from the English leaving cert syllabus:

6.6 At Higher Level the study of a Shakespearean drama is compulsory. This may be chosen either for study as a single text or as an element in the comparative study of a group of texts.

Daithinski

I think its time non-irish speakers got over their jealousy, inferiority complex and shame about not being able to speak Irish.

Maybe instead of funding irish the government could put together a counselling package to help with the issues of these poor gaelgóir-ily challenged people.

Rebelheart

Powerhouse wrote: »

Your point is marginal, irrelevant and pedantic in contradiction of a point that an awful lot of apparently pointless (if you are a utilitarian) stuff is being taught in English and it is a compulsory subject even though we are all native speakers.

Thank you, thank you very, very much, kind Sir, for having a lucid grasp of the hypocrisy here, something which the opponents of Irish on this thread steadfastly wish to avoid.

Rebelheart

Powerhouse wrote: »

But your "clarification" is also incorrect. This is from the English leaving cert syllabus:

6.6 At Higher Level the study of a Shakespearean drama is compulsory. This may be chosen either for study as a single text or as an element in the comparative study of a group of texts.

Agus arís; táim an-bhuíoch díot.

Rebelheart

Aard wrote: »

And, fwiw, the English Lit and maths theorems argument is a red herring.

Given that numerous anti-Irish posters here have riled against the existence of compulsory Irish - for example: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62565811&postcount=95 - I'm afraid the issue of compulsoriness has been placed very much at the centre of this thread. These anti-Irish rants have not, unsurprisingly enough, been contested until I highlighted the fact that all kids are forced to do an unforgivable number of utterly useless subjects when they are forced to take compulsory English in the Leaving Cert.

Then, and only then, did compulsoriness become a "red herring" among the anti-Irish lobby. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Dannyboy83

Daithinski wrote: »

I think its time non-irish speakers got over their jealousy, inferiority complex and shame about not being able to speak Irish.

Maybe instead of funding irish the government could put together a counselling package to help with the issues of these poor gaelgóir-ily challenged people.

Hi,
I do speak Irish, and I'm not against it being taught in schools, I am simply a pragmatist.
I find it funny that you say ashamed or inferior, because most people do not think like that. To most people, it is just irrelevant. Its a non-event. There is nothing to be ashamed or feel inferior about.

As I said before elsewhere on this board, having dated foreign women exclusively for the last 6/7 years and visiting their countries, I would probably be the person least in favour of discarding the language entirely.

But you cannot deny, its useless in its present form and present teaching.
The way its taught is not only ineffective, but damaging.
Irish has been taught here for over 3 generations and less people than ever speak it. What other country can say that?
Other kids hated it with a passion when I went to school and just saw it as a funny anomaly, and more evidence of our 'sher it'll do - ness' so strongly associated with our national identity.

I thought I would never be able to speak a language, but I went away and learned Russian and Polish myself, because I enjoy it and because I have use for it. I found out I have an ability for languages.
When I think back to school, I have only bad memories of Irish. Much more so than French or German. I tend to associate learning Irish with religious guilt. It was our duty, not something to be enjoyed. Cold classrooms. Rain. That part of my life is in black and white.
Isn't that an odd comparison?

The only reason I speak it (and I'm certainly not fluent) is because one or two friends are fluent and I began to take an interest in it. It suddenly became relevant to me.
Even more odd, I don't associate that with the teaching I had in school at all. Its like learning a new and fresh language.
The stuff we did in school just seemed like a mandatory prison sentence we had to endure for our original sin.

p.s. I hated the English JC syllabus just as much, but oddly, I love the leaving cert English syllabus. I mean Dances with Wolves - how relevant and intersting can you get? I got an A2 in English and a C? in Irish.

Daithinski

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Hi,

I find it funny that you say ashamed or inferior, because most people do not think like that. To most people, it is just irrelevant. Its a non-event.

For some non irish speakers it is more than a non event, otherwise what could explain their passion for being so anti-irish (like a lot of posters in this thread) (I don't mean you BTW)

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

But you cannot deny, its useless in its present form and present teaching.. The way its taught is not only ineffective, but damaging...

I don't know enough about the current form of teaching it to confirm or deny it. I'm pretty sure its an improvement on the christian brothers.

I have a daughter in primary and she is enjoying learning it. So maybe its not the same as it was years ago.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I have only bad memories of Irish. Much more so than French or German. I tend to associate learning Irish with religious guilt. It was our duty, not something to be enjoyed. Cold classrooms. Rain. That part of my life is in black and white.
Isn't that an odd comparison?

It is an odd comparison but I think it hits the nail on the head, there is/was a stigma and negative associations attached to speaking Irish.

Many years ago The Irish, (who spoke Irish at the time) were viewed by many in England as little more than fancy white monkeys, and their language was viewed as being backwards. This perception would have been fine, apart from the fact that they ruled us. The Irish didn't have enough self esteem as a nation to overcome this and rapidly changed over to speaking english.

That stigma and point of view has survived over the generations and now manifests itself in the overly negative perception some people have of the Irish language.

Aard

Daithinski wrote: »

For some non irish speakers it is more than a non event, otherwise what could explain their passion for being so anti-irish (like a lot of posters in this thread)

Not really, tbh. I honestly don't think that "shame" comes into it at all. To them, it's like having Swahili being compulsory - they're just thinking, "Wtf, this isn't my language; I have no desire to learn it, and I will never use it in life." How would you feel if you were forced to learn a language other than your mother-tongue?

Blackjack

Aard wrote: »

Not really, tbh. I honestly don't think that "shame" comes into it at all. To them, it's like having Swahili being compulsory - they're just thinking, "Wtf, this isn't my language; I have no desire to learn it, and I will never use it in life." How would you feel if you were forced to learn a language other than your mother-tongue?

As a Native speaker, I was pretty much forced to learn a language that was not my Mother tongue. I dealt with it. It didn't really bother me a whole shebang.

As it happens, I have also known a good few people in my lifetime who never spoke or needed to speak English, but I'm sure they would just be considered backward by many here.

NewDubliner

Daithinski wrote: »

I think its time non-irish speakers got over their jealousy, inferiority complex and shame about not being able to speak Irish.

I don't speak Irish and my ancestors did not either, so there's no reason why I should have a complex about not speaking it. I'm quite happy for indigenous Irish speakers to speak their language.

But it's time the Irish lobby was made accountable for the money given to it. and it's time that the response from the Irish lobby moved beyond "Why do you hate Irish?".

For example, is the new 'Foinse' being funded by the taxpayer?

Daithinski

Aard wrote: »

How would you feel if you were forced to learn a language other than your mother-tongue?

In fairness, I didn't complain when I had to learn english.

eddyc

The fact is if the government stopped all funding in promoting Irish language, the language wouldn't die and the country would still function perfectly well.

By the way does anyone have a problem with English being our native language? i.e the language learned as children by a vast majority of people of this country, and used in all aspects of life by most people everyday.

Aard

Daithinski wrote: »

In fairness, I didn't complain when I had to learn english.

Nor did I when I had to learn Irish. But I'm in the minority. There are thousands more who resent having to learn a language they will never use. Your having to learn English is different: you actually use it in daily life. How many Gaelgóirí can say that they never have to use English? A couple of hundred, at most. Again, the number of Béarlóirí who never have to use Irish are in their thousands, if not millions.

Daithinski

NewDubliner wrote: »

IBut it's time the Irish lobby was made accountable for the money given to it. and it's time that the response from the Irish lobby moved beyond "Why do you hate Irish?".

Maybe the OP's question should not have been so loaded, maybe a less biased, more neutral question along the lines of "Is it now really time to assess the cost/benefit of funding the Irish language. "

The question was phrased in such a way that is is a foregone conclusion that funding irish was a complete loss. It also has the emotive phrase "costs us all" thrown in for good measure.

To be fair, its not a huge sum of money and I'm sure the Irish language gives a bit of interest to tourists, and it adds to the whole Celtic mystique that is part of the attraction of Ireland.

http://www.discoverireland.ie/Culture-and-Heritage/Traditionally-Irish.aspx

The market for Overseas visitors to Ireland is(was) around the €3.8 billion mark.

http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/tourism/overview.html

Surely a couple of million invested in the Irish language could be seen as an investment.

In contrast the millions the government spent incentivising businessmen to build/extend hotels is more of a waste. I haven't seen a thread on that here so far. And if there was I'm sure the debate wouldn't rage for 42 pages.

Its patently obvious this has just been an exercise in irish-bashing.

MysticalRain

Daithinski wrote: »

I think its time non-irish speakers got over their jealousy, inferiority complex and shame about not being able to speak Irish.

Maybe instead of funding irish the government could put together a counselling package to help with the issues of these poor gaelgóir-ily challenged people.

I think that post says a lot more about your own smug superiority complex than it does about any of the rest of us.

Rebelheart

Aard wrote: »

Nor did I when I had to learn Irish. But I'm in the minority. There are thousands more who resent having to learn a language they will never use. Your having to learn English is different: you actually use it in daily life. How many Gaelgóirí can say that they never have to use English? A couple of hundred, at most. Again, the number of Béarlóirí who never have to use Irish are in their thousands, if not millions.

I can safely say that I did not learn a single additional word in English class that I would not have picked up by talking to people or reading a paper or a book. Forcing people to take those classes is the arrogance of a group of cultural fanatics who have, as a matter of historical record, been using the education system to ram the English language down Irish children's throats for a lot longer (and indeed, in that typically inclusive English tradition, succeeded in abolishing the Irish language from all Irish schools) than Irish has been supposedly 'forced' on Irish children. (1831 vs 1926).

To think that, because of this arrogance from the Johnny-come-latelies, people have failed the Leaving Cert and thus failed to be accepted into jobs or third level courses where they would have no use whatever for poetry, novels, short stories or the like. Absurd, but such is the system which the anti-Irish lobby are supporting and justifying here, while irrationally condemning compulsory Irish.