Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

Rebelheart

NewDubliner wrote: »

your obsession with whether or not any of my Irish ancestors (among them a number of knights of the realm, sheriffs, RIC and army officers, honest workmen and a Lord Mayor) might at some time in history spoken a few words of Irish, is that in your view, to challenge Irish-language spending, one must have an ethnic background that you approve of.

Once again, you are the only person here who brought up the entire issue of ethnicity/ancestry. You claimed - without any prompting - that your ancestors never spoke Irish. I sought your evidence for that, well, tripe. You, naturally enough, could not support your claim. Your response: I suddenly have an 'obsession' for tackling you on a claim you made without any historical foundation. Quite pathetic debating skills there.

Oh, and I never once implied that ancestors of yours spoke "a few words of Irish"; rather, Irish was their native language, as it was for the overwhelming majority of the population of this country. This has widespread historical support; your claim that your ancestors, if they can be traced back 800 years in Ireland as you claim, never spoke Irish is historically illiterate raiméis of the highest order.

Rebelheart

NewDubliner wrote: »

Your sole concern is to avoid awkward questions about the funding of Irish language activities.

Actually, it is to tackle ahistorical rubbish such as you have spouted above. And I do so with confidence and passion and mental footnotes supporting every comment I make about Irish history.

Rebelheart

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much is spent on 'Foinse'? Where does the money come from? Who funds 'Foras na Gaeilge'?

Speaking of an 'obsession', if you are so interested in Foinse's funding, why are you refusing to put up the facts? Your 'case' against Foinse can be summed up thus: I haven't a clue about the figures so I'm reduced to casting aspersions.

Put up or shut up. Do your own research to support your own prejudices. Lazy or what.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

So, the company that published and sold 'Foinse' was offered €355,000 by Foras na Gaeilge and turn it down saying it was not enough. That same company only managed to sell 4,000 copies at a cost to the taxpayer of over €90 euro per reader.

Incorrect.

Foinse didn't come to terms with Foras na Gaeilge on account of Foinse wanting to release the paper for free online, 2 days after publication. Foras na Gaeilge did not want this. It had absolutely nothing to do with the funds.

You might want to check your facts before you post anymore. Just a suggestion. You seem to be tripping up on every second sentence you post.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Now, we learn that a right-wing newspaper will be distributing 'Foinse' free--of-charge every Wednesday.

Why is it important if the paper is left or right-wing? The fact that it is will to distribute the paper for free is a great thing to the Irish language speakers.

NewDubliner wrote: »

So, it begs the question that newspaper in question is being paid to give 'Foinse' away, probably for €355,000, while the editors of 'Foinse' claim it is privately funded.

Wrong. See above.

NewDubliner wrote: »

'Foras' appears be a government funded quango. Although I found it quite difficult to learn this from its website.

It is a government funded organisation which works on the promotion and preservation of the Irish language. What exactly are you having problems with on this?

NewDubliner wrote: »

Strangely, the Irish-language supporters, despite their deeply claimed knowledge things Irish, have no idea about how government money is spent on Irish or how much, but, perversely, consider that this somehow qualifies them to defend spending on Irish.

The only person who has tried to claim to be in the know on here is you. I offered you the e-mail address of Foinse to gather some information from them in regards to funding, but you have failed to do so. You're not actually interested in finding out.

So once again: nuacht@foinse.ie - E-mail them and ask them about their current funding arrangements.

douglashyde

Interesting Information, although I have no time to read other posts.

I work for a VERY very large semi state company that is required by law to translate all communication messaging in Irish, an average campaign can cost 20,000 -50,000 euro just to have the information translated and then for the cost of print.

THIS is a waste of money, people should have the option of either Irish or English. NOT BOTH!

Lets be forward thinking here people

NewDubliner

Rebelheart wrote: »

Speaking of an 'obsession', if you are so interested in Foinse's funding, why are you refusing to put up the facts? Your 'case' against Foinse can be summed up thus: I haven't a clue about the figures so I'm reduced to casting aspersions.

Yes, I do have a clue: it's likely (see the RTE story) to be €355,000/year for a newspaper that only 4,000 people were bother to buy.

Fighting Irish

douglashyde wrote: »

Interesting Information, although I have no time to read other posts.

I work for a VERY very large semi state company that is required by law to translate all communication messaging in Irish, an average campaign can cost 20,000 -50,000 euro just to have the information translated and then for the cost of print.

THIS is a waste of money, people should have the option of either Irish or English. NOT BOTH!

Lets be forward thinking here people

But me and the other 3% of the population want both. Irish is great!!!!11

NewDubliner

Fighting Irish wrote: »

But me and the other 3% of the population want both. Irish is great!!!!11

Do you have statistics to show that this 3% actaully read the Irish versions?

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

Yes, & already done in a reply to dlofnep.

From RTE

If I was to quote an article about when a newspaper was going out of circulation to prove a point about the same newspaper going into circulation, you'd be all over me like some form of swine flu mutated rash. Don't worry I saw that article, but do you have anything to back up what you said.

Don't worry, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested, we all know that they get money off the government. I would like to know how much.


@douglashyde

The alternative would be the effective forcing of people to use English in their day to day dealing with your company. I'd also be interested to hear those figures in context. Whats the cost of writing up the stuff in the first place? If you're spending 20,000 on a translation it's probably a hefty document in the first place (Otherwise you're getting screwed!).

bonkey

NewDubliner / Rebelheart

Give it a rest, already. Either get back to behaving civilly, or I'll remove you from the discussion

Fighting Irish

NewDubliner wrote: »

Do you have statistics to show that this 3% actaully read the Irish versions?

I'd say there's less 3% that really care enough to try and prevent government documents from going to english only

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

Incorrect.
Foinse didn't come to terms with Foras na Gaeilge on account of Foinse wanting to release the paper for free online, 2 days after publication. Foras na Gaeilge did not want this. It had absolutely nothing to do with the funds.

From RTE, June 25, 2009: Foinse newspaper to close over funding

The newspaper's owner, Pádraig Ó Céidigh..... said the kind of paper that Foras na Gaeilge were seeking as part of the new contract could not be achieved, in his opinion, while breaking even financially.

That story would indicate that it most certainly had something to do with money. What's the source of your information that "It had absolutely nothing to do with the funds."?

dlofnep wrote: »

Foinse was funded by Foras na Gaeilge, but is currently not as far as I understand.

This is also in the RTE story:

When pressed if this was the end for Foinse, Mr Mac an Fháiligh said that was Padraig Ó Céidigh's decision and not one for the Foras.....
He added that if Foinse was wound up, the contract for a new weekly Irish language newspaper would be soon put out to tender.

It would be reasonable to assume that it was put out to tender and that the Irish Independent was the successful bidder? It would also be implied that Foras owns the title of 'Foinse'?

If it is now being funded without any cost to the taxpayer and printed and given away for free by the cash-strapped Irish Independent, that would be fantastic.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

That story would indicate that it most certainly had something to do with money. What's the source of your information that "It had absolutely nothing to do with the funds."?

On account of actively paying attention to the demise of Foinse, as I had bought it a few times. I can't remember where I read about the release of it online, but I'm certain that was the reason.

NewDubliner wrote: »

If it is now being funded without any cost to the taxpayer and printed and given away for free by the cash-strapped Irish Independent, that would be fantastic.

I'm happy to get it for free, I've no qualms there. I wouldn't normally buy the Independent however, but I'll be more than happy to buy it and bin it, taking Foinse out of it.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

I can't remember where I read about the release of it online, but I'm certain that was the reason.

The control and ownership of the title does seem a bit ambiguous, even though the government was paying most of the cost for a number of years.

Irish Times - 'Foinse' seeks cash injection to survive

The paper’s owner, Pádraig Ó Céidigh, said in a statement that he had informed staff yesterday at the Carraroe-based weekly that he had refused to accept a new contract from Foras na Gaeilge, because of the amount of money involved.

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm happy to get it for free, I've no qualms there. I wouldn't normally buy the Independent however, but I'll be more than happy to buy it and bin it, taking Foinse out of it.

There is also the possibility that having had its state funding withdrawn, 'Foinse' has suddenly learned how to survive without a government bailout.

Bids for funding of new weekly Irish language paper

Sunday Tribune October 18 2009 - Irish-language body Foras na Gaeilge has met with a number of groups seeking funding for a new newspaper to replace the recently defunct weekly Foinse.

The organisation is believed to have heard the proposals of up to five groups for the creation of a new Irish-language weekly over the past week.

So, will there now be a state-funded competitor for Foinse, a newspaper that only 4,000 people were interested enough to buy?

This story gets curiouser and curiouser.

Daithinski

NewDubliner wrote: »

This story gets curiouser and curiouser.

No... you are.

NewDubliner

Daithinski wrote: »

No... you are.

Don't you think the taxpayer should be curious about how public money is spent?

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

Don't you think the taxpayer should be curious about how public money is spent?

Obviously, they aren't, because I've provided you with Foinse's e-mail address twice and you've yet to contact them.

SEAMUSJACKIE

ANYBODY SAY HOW MUCH TTHE ENGLISH LANGUAGE COST US?.

The Corinthian

SEAMUSJACKIE wrote: »

ANYBODY SAY HOW MUCH TTHE ENGLISH LANGUAGE COST US?.

If you're looking to argue in favour of the Irish (or against the English) language on the basis of a balance sheet, you're going to be shooting yourself in the foot.

Grudaire

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you're looking to argue in favour of the Irish (or against the English) language on the basis of a balance sheet, you're going to be shooting yourself in the foot.

Tbf you're taking someone who's Caps lock is broken and with only a single post seriously...:rolleyes::D

ei.sdraob

sorry to dig up an old thread

but

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/chinese-university-to-teach-irish-2053719.html

Cjoe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sorry to dig up an old thread

but

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/chinese-university-to-teach-irish-2053719.html

Hope they dont give the same Curriculum to them as they do here otherwise they wont get far.

Cjoe

dlofnep wrote: »

I suppose a bit of analysis is in order. In order to determine if the costs of the Irish language is worth it, we should explain why. I'll give an overview of why I feel the Irish language is of importance to Ireland, and why I feel that it should be taught. This is solely my opinion, and is purely subjective - I will try to remain as impartial as possible.

Why is Irish important to Ireland

The Irish Government states the following.



Source: http://www.pobail.ie/en/IrishLanguage/StatementontheIrishLanguage2006/file,7802,en.pdf

I think we can all agree, that the Irish language is unique to Ireland and remains a fundamental aspect of traditional Irish culture. It is certainly a luring element in certain aspects of tourism. One could look at the drawing power Oideas Gael has to Gleann Cholm Cille and other various Gaeltachtaí across the country.

Why Irish should receive funding

If we are to remove the fact that it is legally our first language (along with English), or even the sentimental aspects that the language has on many people - I feel that the Irish language requires funding to ensure it's survival.

So this presses the question, do you want the Irish language to survive, or to die? Since this is purely subjective, I can only give my views on it.

I want the Irish language to survive, so I certainly feel that it warrants funding. The reason why it requires funding to survive is outlined in many texts, such as Joshua Fishman's writings on reversing language shift - where he explains the importance of compulsory education, the promotion of the language within communities, the use of the language within the media and state bodies and assisting in maintaining the strength of language communities in order to reverse language shift.

Since the Government has continously stated that they are firmly behind supporting the Irish language, the language is supported at the highest levels. Moreover, there has never really been an anti-Irish movement in the history of this state, but there have been numerous pro-Irish movements. That to me tells me that the will of those in support of the Irish language is stronger than the will of those who are against it.

I feel that most pay lip service to their views on message boards, or over a drunken conversation - but would never actually make a move on removal of the Irish language. The opposite is true for Irish language supporters, who routinely get together in support of the language through protests, marches, events, creation of conversational groups and classes. This is very easy to verify and is very visible across the state.

So at a community level, there is certainly support for the Irish language. Any polls I have seen over the years have always demonstrated support for the Irish language. Those who protest support of the language always appear to be in the minority.

Should there be accountability for funding?

Like any other state-funded aspect of Ireland, I agree with many people that there should be accountability for funding, and cost-benefit analysis should be taken. More efficient and cost-effective translation services should be put in place, however - the removal of these services would be in conflict with Irish as an official language.

I don't think that language supporters and language antagonists could ever come together on the level of funding the Irish language should receive. If we were to break down the population into three categories - Those who firmly support the language, those who firmly oppose the language, and those who neither firmly support or oppose the language - I think we'd find the number of those who firmly oppose it were very minimal.

Education

If we are to suppose that the majority of the people support mandatory Irish education, then we have to ask the question - Why does the current curriculum not work?

In my opinion, I feel that the Irish language curriculum does not focus enough on the conversational aspect of the language and instead wastes too much time on grammatical aspects, and literature. I firmly believe that heavy focus on conversational Irish, including a subject taught through Irish for the duration of primary school would create a great base for students going into secondary. Following this protocol through secondary would leave with a very high level of proficient speakers, who is part in parcel of my next question.

Use of Irish in modern society

The lack of Irish speakers outside of the Gaeltachtaí is due to a number of reasons, from what I've seen. Firstly, there is the educational issue. Most people just don't have the ability to speak Irish proficiently. But that however, does not stop them from speaking it at a basic or intermediate level.

So you have to ask yourself - why is it so rare to see Irish spoken at basic or intermediate levels? In my opinion, I believe it is out of fear. I have noticed this over my last 3 years as an Irish conversational group organiser, and current learner myself. People are very afraid to speak the Irish language, out of fear of making a mistake. They doubt their ability, and feel that their level of Irish just isn't good enough to begin to use it. They feel that they would do it a dis-service, or might be chastised by trying to use it; But the opposite is true.

When I first started learning the language, I often found myself afraid of trying to say something, out of fear of making a mess of it and looking stupid. I quickly found that my initial fear was unfounded, and that Irish speakers were more than happy to help with a translation, and didn't actually care if you made a mistake.

The real issue is confidence. An example I often use is a Spanish speaker, coming to Ireland speaking English. They might often question you if their English is ok, but you continously re-assurre them that their English is perfect, and become quizzical as to why they might feel that their English isn't good enough. The spanish speaker might mix up a few words, or a few tenses - But you really don't care, and sometimes don't even notice it.

I would just like to say that Irish is a very relevant aspect of my daily life, and it is in most part because I have allowed it to. Many of my friends are Irish speakers, and I have the chance to attend a conversational group ever week to reinforce that relevance. For those who say that Irish is useless, is not being fair to the language. It is another medium of communication which both the Government, and the majority of the people of Ireland feel is a fundamental aspect of Irish culture, and is unique to us. It is becoming much more popular in the past decade, and continues to grow and will continue to do so. It's no suprise that this coincides with the likes of the birth of TG4, and more Irish language support from the Government.

Sin é.

Fair play to you.
Hit the nail on the head with everything.
I have been reading through alot of the posts and you have tackled the issue properly and you are un-biased also.

Grudaire

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sorry to dig up an old thread

but

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/chinese-university-to-teach-irish-2053719.html

Ah FFS, we'll stop giving out about the Poles, Yu Ming (is ainm dom) will become a fecking problem! :pac:

senordingdong

Hmmm...I wonder where all those other universitie are.

I know one of them is Moscow....but that's all.