BRegs, 2006 Part B, Escape Windows

taxman

Hi

Just like to know am I missing something here...

2006 TGD Part B 1.5.8.1 would seem to say that ALL windows (upstairs AND downstairs) are to follow 1.5.6 and have safety restrictors.
Seems nonsensical and I dont think I have never seen it done.
A thorny issue for snagging.

Also, I presume the same bit rules out the use of the pushbutton handles.

Jimbo

That clause only relates to ground floor inner rooms i.e. a room that isnt accessed off a hallway and dosent have an external door.

All bedrooms, even on ground floor, have to have window for escape and rescue if they dont have a external door.

sydthebeat

taxman wrote: »

Hi

Just like to know am I missing something here...

2006 TGD Part B 1.5.8.1 would seem to say that ALL windows (upstairs AND downstairs) are to follow 1.5.6 and have safety restrictors.
Seems nonsensical and I dont think I have never seen it done.
A thorny issue for snagging.

Also, I presume the same bit rules out the use of the pushbutton handles.

dont know where you are getting that....

All habitable rooms should be provided with windows suitable for escape purposes. These windows should be fitted with safety restrictors. Push button handles are acceptable. removable key types are not.

the guarding regs allows for openable sections on windows where the cills of same are less than 1.4 from external path. Personally i wouldnt insist on these windows, but i cannot see what reasonable reason could be given for not putting them on.... have you seen them and how they work...??

sydthebeat

Jimbo wrote: »

That clause only relates to ground floor inner rooms i.e. a room that isnt accessed off a hallway and dosent have an external door.

All bedrooms, even on ground floor, have to have window for escape and rescue if they dont have a external door.

what clause... the restrictor one??? if so, you are not correct...

Mellor

I'd be in agreement with Syd here, after an extensive job regarding retrofitting guarding, i'm certain that jimbo is refering to something else.

Jimbo

I wasn't referring to guarding but to provision of windows for escape and rescue.

It has always been my understanding that TGDB doesn't call for windows for escape and rescue to all habitable rooms on a ground floor - just to bedrooms and inner rooms that are accessed through another room that's is not a hallway.

Dwelling Houses with no Floors morethan 4.5 m above ground level (PurposeGroup 1(a))
1.5.2 The following provisions apply to dwelling
houses where the height of the top storey is not
more than 4.5 m (see Appendix C, Diagram 38).
This type of dwelling house typically has one or two
storeys:
(i) any habitable room which is an inner room
should be provided with a window for escape
or rescue in accordance with 1.5.6.
(ii) a stairway serving an upper storey should be
enclosed with storey-height construction,
which need not be fire-resisting, and should
discharge directly to the open air;
(iii) a fire detection and alarm system should be
provided, in accordance with 1.5.5; and
(iv) the provisions in 1.5.8 should be complied
with.

1.5.8.1 Inner rooms - An inner room is where the
access to that room is through another room. A
habitable room should not be an inner room unless
it is located at basement, ground or first storey and
is provided with a window or door suitable for
escape or rescue in accordance with the provisions
of 1.5.6.

Room - An enclosed space in a building that is not
an enclosed circulation space (thus the term includes
not only conventional rooms, but also cupboards
that are not fittings, and large spaces such as
warehouses and auditoria).

So there dosent seem to be a requirement for all habitable rooms on a ground floor to have windows for escape and rescue once they are not accessed of a another room that is not a hallway and once they are not bedrooms:

1.5.8.2 Windows for escape or rescue -
Windows may provide an alternative means of
escape or may be used for rescue purposes in
dwelling houses. Guidance in relation to such
windows is given in Paragraph 1.5.6. There are
specific situations, e.g. as described in Paragraphs
1.5.2, 1.5.3 and 1.5.7.6, where windows in dwelling
houses should comply with the guidance given in
Paragraph 1.5.6 in this regard.
As a general provision, in addition to the specific
situations referred to above, all bedrooms in
dwelling houses, other than bedrooms with doors
that give direct access to the outside at ground level,
should comply with the provisions outlined in
Paragraph 1.5.6.

I would always specify escapable windows in all habitable rooms in a house regardless but there dosent seem to be a requirement for it in the regs.

muffler

taxman wrote: »

2006 TGD Part B 1.5.8.1 would seem to say that ALL windows (upstairs AND downstairs) are to follow 1.5.6 and have safety restrictors.

Maybe Im missing something

Jimbo wrote: »

That clause only relates to ground floor inner rooms i.e. a room that isnt accessed off a hallway and dosent have an external door.

All bedrooms, even on ground floor, have to have window for escape and rescue if they dont have a external door.

Thats the way I read it.

sydthebeat wrote: »

dont know where you are getting that....

All habitable rooms should be provided with windows suitable for escape purposes. These windows should be fitted with safety restrictors. Push button handles are acceptable. removable key types are not.

Now Im confused

Jimbo wrote: »

I wasn't referring to guarding but to provision of windows for escape and rescue.

It has always been my understanding that TGDB doesn't call for windows for escape and rescue to all habitable rooms on a ground floor - just to bedrooms and inner rooms that are accessed through another room that's is not a hallway.

So there dosent seem to be a requirement for all habitable rooms on a ground floor to have windows for escape and rescue once they are not accessed of a another room that is not a hallway and once they are not bedrooms:

Again that is my understanding.

I'll go back to bed again

Mellor

Jimbo wrote: »

It has always been my understanding that TGDB doesn't call for windows for escape and rescue to all habitable rooms on a ground floor - just to bedrooms and inner rooms that are accessed through another room that's is not a hallway.
.

But you didn't say it that clearly in your original post.
You made it sound like the restrictors were required only on inner rooms and not on bedrooms. I misread some of Syd's post, and I was thinking along the lines of all first floor habitable (ie bedrooms) need escape windows. I ignored ground floor for some strange reason

sydthebeat

I was confusing the issue with the requirement for open plan stairwell (they have become more common in my designs) in which:

"- all habitable rooms at the upper storey are
provided with windows for escape or rescue in
accordance with 1.5.6; and"

but jimbo is correct for cases where there is a stairwell enclosed....

onq

Please note that the TGD says "should" and not "shall" and this is an important distinction in law. It is advisory, not mandatory. Also different building control officers and fire safety engineering consultants will require different solutions.

The general gist of this requirement is that a sleeping occupancy / habitable rooms at a height should be afforded extra protection.

One way to do this is to afford occupants an alternative means of escape so they can turn their backs to the fire - like a window.

Another means to do this is to significantly improve the Fire Detection and Alarm System.

A third means to do this is to locally sprinkler the most likely source of fire.

A fourth means to do this is to increase the fire resistance of building elements and doors.

Windows are all very well, but cold smoke and fumes are the silent killers, and interstitial pathways the hardest to spot.

Add to that the predilection some people have for downlighters and the general lack of fire hoods within timber first floors and you may have a recipe for disaster no window will solve.

FWIW

ONQ.

Mellor

onq wrote: »

Please note that the TGD says "should" and not "shall" and this is an important distinction in law. It is advisory, not mandatory.

Strictly speaking, the TGDs are all advisory. With the regs the only part that are mandatory, ie law.
however, the TGDs are advised minimum requirements, and failure to meet the advise (and an absence of another compliance route not covered by the TGDs) would result in non compliance with the regs.

taxman

Thanks for all the reponses, though there seems to be some confusion on this.

If one were to take the regs as mandatory, and for the purposes of a snag list, I think I can assume that:
All bedroom windows have to have restrictors (and not push-button handles) unless they have an external ground floor door to the room.

Based on 1.5.8.2:
"As a general provision,... all bedrooms...should comply with ....1.5.6"
1.5.6(e):
"The opening section of the window should be....fitted with safety restrictors...Restrictors should operate so that they limit the initial movement of an opening section to not more than 100mm"

I was wondering then why I had never seen restrictors downstairs, but then thats probably because there were no downstairs rooms designated as bedrooms.

onq

taxman wrote: »

Thanks for all the reponses, though there seems to be some confusion on this.

If one were to take the regs as mandatory, and for the purposes of a snag list, I think I can assume that:
All bedroom windows have to have restrictors (and not push-button handles) unless they have an external ground floor door to the room.

Under normal circumstances with FR30 construction, no sprinklers and no fire doors, that is the position as I understand it - its just not the only means of achieving relative safety for the upper level/sleepign accommodation

Based on 1.5.8.2:
"As a general provision,... all bedrooms...should comply with ....1.5.6"
1.5.6(e):
"The opening section of the window should be....fitted with safety restrictors...Restrictors should operate so that they limit the initial movement of an opening section to not more than 100mm"

I was wondering then why I had never seen restrictors downstairs, but then thats probably because there were no downstairs rooms designated as bedrooms.

I think you have discovered one of the several pieces of woolly writing in the TGBs. Its impossible for civil servants to think of everything and equally impossible for even trained legal or building professionals to word things to cover everything.

It looks like the framers of the section assumed there would be upper level bedrooms, as opposed to ground floor bedrooms, but the restrictors are to stop children from falling - the 100mm dimension crops up again on stairs and guardings as the maximum dimension.

[Geez! Were there thousands of kids getting their heads stuck or what?!!!]

On larger more salubrious houses with large external windows from bathrooms and landings, it might be appropriate they too should be fitted with restrictors.

FWIW

ONQ.

Mellor

taxman wrote: »

Thanks for all the reponses, though there seems to be some confusion on this.

If one were to take the regs as mandatory, and for the purposes of a snag list, I think I can assume that:
All bedroom windows have to have restrictors (and not push-button handles) unless they have an external ground floor door to the room.

Based on 1.5.8.2:
"As a general provision,... all bedrooms...should comply with ....1.5.6"
1.5.6(e):
"The opening section of the window should be....fitted with safety restrictors...Restrictors should operate so that they limit the initial movement of an opening section to not more than 100mm"

There really isn't any confusion, some posts strayed a bit, but the general consensus is the same by all posters.
The only part i'm not sure of is why you think push button handles are not allowed. Syd said they were ok in the second reply, and nobody disagrees.

Removable keys are not allowed, push buttons are.

Regarding the fact that you haven't seen restrictors, well you probably have yet didn't notice them. Strictly speaking, a push button lock is a restrictor, that limits the window to 0mm opening, which complies with the requirement.

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

Strictly speaking, a push button lock is a restrictor, that limits the window to 0mm opening, which complies with the requirement.

I couldn't agree with that interpretation of the reg, based on the spirit behind the reg.

The requirement for restrictors came from worrys persons had about children falling out of windows, and their inability to lock windows based on this fear. Therefore, restrictors were introduced to allow a window to be opened (for whatever purpose, probably ventilation) while still allowing for the removal of the fear of a child falling out.

If the window can be opened, from a bedroom on a first floor, it needs to have a safety restrictor incorporated. These are simply devices which can be unlatched, usually from the bottom of the window, very easily by hand.

I personally know of a child (a neighbour 3 doors away) who fell out of a first floor bedroom window, and survived (with a broken arm) because he fell onto the recycling bin luckily located beneath his window. Many people do not realise the risks of windows when laying out a bedroom with beds, lockers etc all allowing access for kids to climb onto a window board. Most designers do not take this into account when designing out bedrooms for small dwellings such as a trad semi-d. The location of the door, electrical points etc usually dictate where the bed must be placed. In single bed rooms (the commonly titled "box" room) the bed usually allows access to a window board. This is very dangerous in my opinion.

Mellor

sydthebeat wrote: »

I couldn't agree with that interpretation of the reg, based on the spirit behind the reg.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting the above was an acceptable interpretation, given the reason for the reg (which you outlines). I was referring to the fact that closed restrictors are often used as a means of compliance by less concerned builders/designers/developers etc.
I don't agree with it, but as always there are those who seek the minimum requirements in all aspects

BenK

I have a further related query. Say you have a first floor fire escape window in a bedroom where the cill is only at 400mm above floor level (not at 800-1100mm) and the openable section takes up the whole window (but the window handle is at 800-1100mm), would it be acceptable to provide permanent guarding of 800mm in front of the window to meet the regs? I find the description in par 1.5.6 of Part B a little confusing on this. My understanding though is that in reading the bit on guarding in Part K also that it would be ok. Just wondering on other peoples thoughts...

Mellor

BenK wrote: »

I have a further related query. Say you have a first floor fire escape window in a bedroom where the cill is only at 400mm above floor level (not at 800-1100mm) and the openable section takes up the whole window (but the window handle is at 800-1100mm), would it be acceptable to provide permanent guarding of 800mm in front of the window to meet the regs? I find the description in par 1.5.6 of Part B a little confusing on this. My understanding though is that in reading the bit on guarding in Part K also that it would be ok. Just wondering on other peoples thoughts...

As long as the guarding ws permanant it should comply