Price of wood pellets Sterling v. Euro

Biglad

Hi All,

I've just had a look at the Balcas (Brites) site as we are due to place an order for pellets. They are currently charging 129.00 Pounds/Ton whilst the Euro rate is, wait for it, 175.00/Ton (both quoted ex. VAT). This might be getting to be an old story but it's also daft at this day and age, 129.00 pounds is about 140.00 Euro at the moment. The whole thing leaves me and other users up here with the following questions;
Why quote private buyers ex VAT?
Why can they not adjust their Euro price against the Sterling?
Why can we not pay in sterling by credit card over the phone for a delivery in the Republic?
I'm sure there are many more questions to be asked but I'm starting to get seriously pee'd off with the arrogance that Balcas is putting on show, both in their pricing and whilst talking to them on the phone.
On behalf of several pellet users uphere I have emailed SEI as well about the above. Balcas must have seen their pellet business skyrocket because of the grant scheme and now we are expected to pay over the odds for them?
And to put some more oil on the fire, no pun intended, our recent deliveries came in the new round bodied delivery lorry but the last one arrived in the box lorry. We were also the last delivery of the day. The driver, who was a very nice man, had to tip the body fully to blow every last grain of pellet in to our storage and gues what the print out read, exactely 3.5 ton.
When I inspected the storage the pellets were covered with a layer of fines and dust, and I mean covered. When i called Balcas they requested me to send them a sample and they made all sorts of comments about the storage facility again. I'm sick of sending boxes of pellets to Enniskillen to be honest.

slimjimmc

Please forgive my ignorance but can you explain for those of us who don't use wood pellets what's the significance of the different shape delivery truck? Would there not be dust in both of them, especially if you're getting the bottom-of-the-barrel / last delivery?

And why is a print out reading of exactly 3.5 ton (or tonne?) significant?. Did you order more or less or exactly that. Do you suspect the print is wrong, or is it that you suspect you're getting less pellets with the dust making up a noticable difference?

Biglad

slimjimmc wrote: »

Please forgive my ignorance but can you explain for those of us who don't use wood pellets what's the significance of the different shape delivery truck? Would there not be dust in both of them, especially if you're getting the bottom-of-the-barrel / last delivery?

And why is a print out reading of exactly 3.5 ton (or tonne?) significant?. Did you order more or less or exactly that. Do you suspect the print is wrong, or is it that you suspect you're getting less pellets with the dust making up a noticable difference?

With the round bodied new truck there is no tipping, and for some reason far less dust when looking at the three consecutive deliveries that were made to us with this vehicle. When ordering 3.5 tonne (you can have it your way) the print out would normally read the previous lorry weight, the lorry weight after the delivery, and the difference, which was left in the storage. This would normally be approximately 40 or 50 kilo's more than ordered.
Wit the box shape lorry the tipping effect, in my humble opinion, especially when nearly empty, allows every grain of dust to be blown in to my storage. The fact that the read out gives me an exact 3.5 tonne delivery is, lets say, strange as it's nearly impossible to deliver pellets from a lorry via airpressure to the exact kilo, you can work out the rest yourself.
There is little point in paying for all that dust as it does not give much heat when burned. We are lucky that our boiler and hopper can deal with all that dust but a lot of boilers can't. It clogs up the augers and hoppers which is a pain.
We have been very happy with the performance of our wood pellet system and the money we have saved by not using oil, and we would be even more happy if we could get a consistant supply of quality wood pellets at a reasonable price. I will be happy to anwser any other questions you might have.

PeteHeat

Hi Biglad,

As far as I know the VAT rates are different for N.I. and the Republic which may help explain why they quote ex VAT.

I understood the prices were based on the customers location, getting more expensive the further south you are based on the cost of the diesel and drivers time etc.

I would love to see pellet at €140.00 per tonne, that said I'm almost sure Balcas did not move the prices to increase their profit margin when the exchange rate would have favoured such a move.

There is competition in the market although from what I see the further south you go Balcas are actually keeping the prices in the consumers favour.

From my experience the quality of their product is much better than that of their main competitor in the south and the few times there was serious issues with quality they looked after the customer unlike their competitor who left the customer with the bills for the service and the parts.

Would you mind giving us an idea where "uphere" is ?

The reason I ask is I know customers who are paying €220.00 per tonne for bulk delivery.

I am not employed by Balcas nor do I receive any special incentives from them.

.

Biglad

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi Biglad,

As far as I know the VAT rates are different for N.I. and the Republic which may help explain why they quote ex VAT.

I understood the prices were based on the customers location, getting more expensive the further south you are based on the cost of the diesel and drivers time etc.

I would love to see pellet at €140.00 per tonne, that said I'm almost sure Balcas did not move the prices to increase their profit margin when the exchange rate would have favoured such a move.

There is competition in the market although from what I see the further south you go Balcas are actually keeping the prices in the consumers favour.

From my experience the quality of their product is much better than that of their main competitor in the south and the few times there was serious issues with quality they looked after the customer unlike their competitor who left the customer with the bills for the service and the parts.

Would you mind giving us an idea where "uphere" is ?

The reason I ask is I know customers who are paying €220.00 per tonne for bulk delivery.

I am not employed by Balcas nor do I receive any special incentives from them.

.

Uphere is Donegal. Although Sterling has taken a nose dive against the Euro Balcas has done very little or nothing to adjust their pricing. This would be fine if they offered us customers in the republic the opportunity to pay in Sterling, what difference would it make to them, bar the extra profit they are now generating because of the exchange rate. That's probably the biggest issue most of their customers have uphere. I know the VAT is different between North and South but they are charging Euro with the lower Northern VAT rate? certain things just don't add up.
I will fully admit that Balcas is the most consistant supplier and I have never bought a pellet elsewhere, and probably won't do either. At the start we had some issues with the home build storage but we made all the changes Balcas suggested and they even came out to look at the setup. Now there are only 2 bends, rubber mats and a mattress from an old cot to dampen the landing. Looking back at the last 4 deliveries as described above it was clear that we got the bottom of the barrel during the last delivery. When I phoned Balcas they asked all the questions again about the storage and if you tell them it was purpose build they become, let's say, defensive. I am not sending them any samples or anything like that because when I did provide them with a sample they never came back with any results untill I made the call.
I know I am on a dangerous path here and i don't want to accuse anybody of anything, but as I wittnessed all deliveries I was stunned that with the last delivery I was handed this print that said; delivered 3500kg, no gross weight before and after, nothing like that, and this after the guy tipping the body as high as it would go to literally blow out every last bit of pellet he had in there.
I will be buying my pellets from Balcas if they still want me as a customer after this little rant because there are no other sennsible alternatives. I need to order 3 or 4 tonne shortly anyway.:D
I just don't understand that we cannot pay in sterling, just don't get it.

nicky28

Hi Biglad,
Just read your post and totally agree with you regarding the price. Just ordered pellets and was looking myself at the cost on their website. We're just being ripped off again. Surely delivery doesn't cost the equivalent of 43 euro a tonne! We are based in cavan, about 30 mins from them. Don't see why we can't pay in sterling, and surely the vat rate will be the uk one anyway. Annoying indeed :mad:

Biglad

nicky28 wrote: »

Hi Biglad,
Just read your post and totally agree with you regarding the price. Just ordered pellets and was looking myself at the cost on their website. We're just being ripped off again. Surely delivery doesn't cost the equivalent of 43 euro a tonne! We are based in cavan, about 30 mins from them. Don't see why we can't pay in sterling, and surely the vat rate will be the uk one anyway. Annoying indeed :mad:

Thanks for the support. SEI told me they have forwarded my mail on to Blacas but I'm not expecting any miracles. I placed an order with them recently as we are running low so we'll have to bite the bullet again. The way to go about this is to get as many people together and submit a joint request to balcas and basically vote with our feet or Euro's in this case.

nicky28

Yeah, it's the same as any of the uk chainstore e.g marks and spencer, if you want to buy a sofa from them in the north they will tell you that if your address is in the south you have to buy it through the southern stores (and pay a hell of a lot more!).
You seem to be using a good few pellets, we are only in the house since Feb so haven't gone through too many loads yet. Hope this one will last all of the winter!

Biglad

nicky28 wrote: »

Yeah, it's the same as any of the uk chainstore e.g marks and spencer, if you want to buy a sofa from them in the north they will tell you that if your address is in the south you have to buy it through the southern stores (and pay a hell of a lot more!).
You seem to be using a good few pellets, we are only in the house since Feb so haven't gone through too many loads yet. Hope this one will last all of the winter!

Our last delivery was 3.5 tonne in early March of this year and the storage was basically empty at that stage. Before that we had a 3 tonne delivery at the start of December '08 but that winter was reasonably cold i suppose. If you're in a new house it will take a while for the usage to settle and it obviously also depends on the type of heating you put in (radiator or UFH) and the size of the house. I'd say an average year would be between 7 and 8 tonne for us. What make of boiler did you put in if you don't mind me asking and what KW?

nicky28

It's a 26kw windhager boiler. It's been running very well so far, with little to do but empty the ash once a month or so. We hadn't really used it all summer as we have a small wood burning stove we use if it gets cold. We have underfloor heating, and solar panels for water heating.

allthedoyles

The price seems very competitive for Balca s, when compared to other suppliers down here .

If you are not happy with the quality of pellets / amount of dust etc , I believe you should not sign for the load and immediately ring your supplier before the truck leaves your yard .

There is no point in 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted '

Biglad

allthedoyles wrote: »

The price seems very competitive for Balca s, when compared to other suppliers down here .

If you are not happy with the quality of pellets / amount of dust etc , I believe you should not sign for the load and immediately ring your supplier before the truck leaves your yard .

There is no point in 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted '

If only life was this easy. Yes they are competitive and that's why we've placed another order recently. That does not take away from the fact that they are taking the mickey out of the conversion rate, 129.00 sterling or 175.00 Euro for the same thing, come on. And being a business based in Northern Ireland why do they not accept payment in their own currency? If you contact them with questions about the pellets delivered you are asked to provide them with a sample. I've done this before as you could have read above and so has my brother in law, it's never their fault...
Why does the lorry driver not take a sample as standard from each delivery to take back to Balcas? That would give them the option to monitor the quality of their own product.

Biglad

nicky28 wrote: »

It's a 26kw windhager boiler. It's been running very well so far, with little to do but empty the ash once a month or so. We hadn't really used it all summer as we have a small wood burning stove we use if it gets cold. We have underfloor heating, and solar panels for water heating.

Sounds like a very nice set up. Unfortunately our situation is not suited for Solar Panels. We do keep the boiler going 24-7 but the heating obviously doesn't really come on during the summer. We have a wood burning stove as well, you need that flame!!
Our Mescoli is doing a good job so far. The ignition element went faulty a couple of times but this was covered by the warrantee. A replacement would cost about a 100 Euro. Funny enough we've since discovered that an element from an electric cooker does the same thing, fits straight in and costs a tenner:D

dugger

If anyboady is interested I could sell 21.336 ton in 15kg bags on 28 pallets for €3200

alfaromeo84

Can i ask the posters here, are they happy they went wood-pellet over oil, and are they saving overall. I am building in the new year, and looking at heating options. Wood-pellet to me seems expensive. On the face of it the average cost usage over the year is €7-800 in pellets. Currently my parents using oil will get a winters fill for €500 average. They got a fill in the last week €440, approx 800litres.

towbar

The box lorry has seperate compartments for each delivery - there is no weigher onboard. It is tipped up as the last one emptied is front compartment. It really shouldn't have much impact on dust as each compartment is seperate.

Also the box lorry uses same mechanism I think to blow the pellets.

The pricing thing is crazy though.

towbar

As to savings, I'd say our savings currently are max 2-300 per annum last year was much higher. It does require more work - cleaning boiler 4-6 weeks, emptying ash every 3-4 weeks, fail to ignite automatically maybe once a month. Its not as easy as oil.

It wouldn't be high on my list of items for a new build plus the grants are not as attractive as they were. That said if building a garage would put oil boiler out there or at least pipe it so conversion would be straightforward.

Biglad

alfaromeo84 wrote: »

Can i ask the posters here, are they happy they went wood-pellet over oil, and are they saving overall. I am building in the new year, and looking at heating options. Wood-pellet to me seems expensive. On the face of it the average cost usage over the year is €7-800 in pellets. Currently my parents using oil will get a winters fill for €500 average. They got a fill in the last week €440, approx 800litres.

We are happy with our pellet set up, no doubt about it. I would like to see the (size) house that can be heated for a year with 7 or 8 hundred Euro worth of pellets, likewise I do not think you can heat an average size family house with oil for 440.00 Euro, unrealistic. I know people who reckon they only get 1 fill of oil a year, but they don't tell you they spend a fortune on immersion, coal etc.
We are using between 7 and 8 tonnes of pellets a year at a cost of app. 1500 Euro. The pellets provide the heating (UFH) and hot water for a 2500sqft two story house with 2 adults and two small children. This obviously is important as a 1 or 2 person hosehold would use less heat. We have several people around us with a similar set up who are within that range of usage as well. We could probably reduce the amount of pellets we use by installing a buffer tank but at the moment the recession is stopping us from doing so.
I realize that oil is "cheap" at the moment but it wont stay that way. There will probably be a Carbon tax introduced in the december budget on home heating oil and the price of oil in general will go up again. I think we can all remember the oil price being near to a Euro a liter not that long ago anyway. I do not think that the pellet price will ever be as volatile and the price of oil.
So yes we are happy with our set up, an no I do not believe you can heat an average size house for a full year for 440.00 Euro without having your coat on most of the time

Edit: we do not have electric showers, just pumps, so all our domestic hot water is generated by the pellets. We buy a bout 100 Euro's worth of logs for our solid fual stoove every winter just to have the "flame effect".
The recent delivery of pellets was fine. New truck, no tipping and the delivery took twice as long as the pressure used for blowing in the pellets was reduced. Very little or no dust / breakage to be seen in the storage. So weldone Balcas for making that change, if we could just sort out the Sterling thing it would be great altogether.

Seanbec

Biglad,

Your pellet use seems high. I have an 1800 sq foot bunglow with rads and I wouldnt burn 3 tonne a year. We have solar also for hot water in the summer no electric showers and the immersion isnt even wired. The heat is turned on around 4 or 5 everyday and off at around 11 or 12, it also comes on for about an hour every morning. We do this from October to March roughly Comfort first Cost second. I also have a solid fuel stove but rarely light it and when I do I only burn timber. Our house is a new build in the last 3 years with only the standard insulation and the attic isnt even fully done yet. The cost per tonne is €230, so the yearly cost is around €600 to €700 a year.

Biglad

Seanbec wrote: »

Biglad,

Your pellet use seems high. I have an 1800 sq foot bunglow with rads and I wouldnt burn 3 tonne a year. We have solar also for hot water in the summer no electric showers and the immersion isnt even wired. The heat is turned on around 4 or 5 everyday and off at around 11 or 12, it also comes on for about an hour every morning. We do this from October to March roughly Comfort first Cost second. I also have a solid fuel stove but rarely light it and when I do I only burn timber. Our house is a new build in the last 3 years with only the standard insulation and the attic isnt even fully done yet. The cost per tonne is €230, so the yearly cost is around €600 to €700 a year.

I can see where you are coming from. I suppose heating two floors and a total of 2500sqft comes at a price. I suppose you get your heat from the solar panels between March and Oktober? We have many examples of houses of similar size around us where conventional oil burners are installed to which we compare favorably when looking at annual heating costs. And then there are similar situations with woodpellet systems that use a similar amount of pellets. I do think that we could save on the amount of pellets used by installing a buffer tank solution. This would significantly reduce the cycling of the boiler and is recommended in most cases.