Good Photographer/Bad Photographer

Dodgykeeper

Following on from the point raised in the other thread which went off topic

I think Andy McInroy is a great photographer, here is a link to his website
http://www.andymcinroy.com
I have purchased one of his prints as have friends of mine who live up in Inishowen.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to post the url of his website and to praise him in here, but if there was another photographer who I was not so impressed with would it be right and proper to say so and to post links to his work.

Is putting images on a website effectively putting them up for c&c and inviting critics to comment be the comments be either positive or negative?

melekalikimaka

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

Is putting images on a website effectively putting them up for c&c and inviting critics to comment be the comments be either positive or negative?

well if your putting them on a website, under the heading of art, and especially if one wishes to recieve an income from said art, most definitely it is free for all reregarding critique and even brash unsubstansiated comment imo

trishw78

people are intitled to their opinions, the owners of their websites can delete the comments they don't like. I Do like Andy's work but I wouldn't be blown away by it.

melekalikimaka

ohhhhhhhhhh.

now i see what this stemmed from....:p

CabanSail

I think that it is fine to criticise items which are put into the public arena, as long as it is not done with the intention of being malicious.

I just opened up site you posted for Andy McInroy & have only looked at the photograph on the front page & my opinion is not as high as yours. It's a nicely composed Landscape but the Horizon is not level. So each to their own.

Dodgykeeper

trishw78 wrote: »

people are intitled to their opinions, the owners of their websites can delete the comments they don't like. I Do like Andy's work but I wouldn't be blown away by it.

Dont quite understand what you mean by this!

Paulw

trishw78 wrote: »

people are intitled to their opinions, the owners of their websites can delete the comments they don't like.

You mean if you post a comment on their own website, then yeah, they can delete it.

But, I assume, that if you post a comment, say here on boards, then the owner of the website has no right to have the comment deleted, surely??

melekalikimaka

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

Dont quite understand what you mean by this!

think thats more the whole blog thang

trishw78

Paulw wrote: »

You mean if you post a comment on their own website, then yeah, they can delete it.

But, I assume, that if you post a comment, say here on boards, then the owner of the website has no right to have the comment deleted, surely??

correct.

correct. unless you've personally insulted the said photographer, without provocation or with provocation

DaireQuinlan

Of course people are allowed to say that 'I don't like that' or even 'In my opinion that is bad' or similar constructs. What we're opposed to is anyone saying 'That is bad' without the qualifying 'in my opinion' because, well, everything is pretty subjective, right ? The other faux pas that people make (and the one which STG seems to have made in the other thread which prompted the responses) is to say that 'compared to MY stuff that stuff is very bad'. That just sounds judgmental and superior, and coupled with the above (ie that you're not considering that people might not like your stuff at all), it's bound to attract criticism.

And yes, if someone has a publically available website of their work I wouldn't hesitate to post it up for praise or criticism if the point came up, particularly if its for commercial purposes.

Dodgykeeper

OK I understand what TrishW meant now, I meant in this type of forum.

What I meant was for example a Wedding forum may be discussing the merits of a Photographer, or the ealier thread where STG said about a School Photographer and was asked to post a link and then was advised not too, surely if the comments were positive and its ok to post then it should be ok to post in a negative light.

melekalikimaka

if the photographer has the confidence to ask for money for his/her work, he/she should have enough confidence to take a critisism

nilhg

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

I think it is perfectly acceptable to post the url of his website and to praise him in here, but if there was another photographer who I was not so impressed with would it be right and proper to say so and to post links to his work.

Is putting images on a website effectively putting them up for c&c and inviting critics to comment be the comments be either positive or negative?

Whatever about right and proper, I don't think it would be fair to come on here and start a thread criticising somebody's work unless they are in the public eye advertising their services to the public, if it's an amateur and they have a comment facility on their site use it, and have the conversation there.
There is a big difference between being harsh to someone who might be just starting off and has put up a personal site, and some of the more self promoting professionals.

melekalikimaka

nilhg wrote: »

Whatever about right and proper, I don't think it would be fair to come on here and start a thread criticising somebody's work unless they are in the public eye advertising their services to the public, if it's an amateur and they have a comment facility on their site use it, and have the conversation there.
There is a big difference between being harsh to someone who might be just starting off and has put up a personal site, and some of the more self promoting professionals.

i think we are talking bout people who take money for their work

nilhg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i think we are talking bout people who take money for their work

Ah, I hadn't caught up with the other thread,and the OP wasn't clear without that context.


IMHO the schools guy is fair game, though to be honest how you can be very individual with schools photos I don't know.

smelltheglove

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

Of course people are allowed to say that 'I don't like that' or even 'In my opinion that is bad' or similar constructs. What we're opposed to is anyone saying 'That is bad' without the qualifying 'in my opinion' because, well, everything is pretty subjective, right ? The other faux pas that people make (and the one which STG seems to have made in the other thread which prompted the responses) is to say that 'compared to MY stuff that stuff is very bad'. That just sounds judgmental and superior, and coupled with the above (ie that you're not considering that people might not like your stuff at all), it's bound to attract criticism.

And yes, if someone has a publically available website of their work I wouldn't hesitate to post it up for praise or criticism if the point came up, particularly if its for commercial purposes.

I like that I am being brought into another thread too, I mean isnt it fantastc seeing people critiscing you in different places.

I never said compared to my work, I said not up to my standard, i.e. the standard I would PAY FOR. I would not presume my work is better than another, I also have references there to the fact that others have approached me to photograph their children instead of the school photog and also I often explain to parents who request me to replace the school photog that the only reason they see mine as being better is that the school photog doesnt have the time to spend individually as I would when prebooked by a family rather than a school.

Hows my spelling here?

I apologise to moderators for off topic but I do feel I have the right to back myself up when I am being discussed here.

As to the topic, I think in my case had I mentioned the name it would be perceived as bing malicious and I am not a malicious person, anyone here who knows me will know that.

Valentia

smelltheglove wrote: »

I never said compared to my work, I said not up to my standard, i.e. the standard I would PAY FOR.

I must say that that is not how I interpreted it. My fault. (Though it is a bit more than a little ambiguous)

That changes the whole tone of your remarks on the other thread.

Thanks for the clarification ;-)

smelltheglove

Valentia wrote: »

I must say that that is not how I interpreted it. My fault. (Though it is a bit more than a little ambiguous)

That changes the whole tone of your remarks on the other thread.

Thanks for the clarification ;-)

Ufortunately Valentia a lot is lost in type that would be there in conversation, however I do find that there is no need to be directly insulting without knowing the context of a post, i.e. superiority, arrogance, etc etc.

We all have standards for things, one person may have a standard of a meal they expect at a restaurant, ny saying a meal they receive is not up to their standards would one assume that person is claiming to be better cook than the chef? I am not an arrogant person at all but it seems many people here have a predetermined opinion as this is not the first time I have been accused of such. Its getting old now....

DaireQuinlan

smelltheglove wrote: »

I like that I am being brought into another thread too, I mean isnt it fantastc seeing people critiscing you in different places.

I never said compared to my work, I said not up to my standard, i.e. the standard I would PAY FOR. I would not presume my work is better than another, I also have references there to the fact that others have approached me to photograph their children instead of the school photog and also I often explain to parents who request me to replace the school photog that the only reason they see mine as being better is that the school photog doesnt have the time to spend individually as I would when prebooked by a family rather than a school.

Hows my spelling here?

I apologise to moderators for off topic but I do feel I have the right to back myself up when I am being discussed here.

As to the topic, I think in my case had I mentioned the name it would be perceived as bing malicious and I am not a malicious person, anyone here who knows me will know that.

I brought this up here because this thread was where that truncated discussion ended up after it was deemed OT in the original thread. I think you're backpedalling here a little, and in the last post you made on the other thread aswell, when you describe it as 'just not being to your taste'. You explicitly say that the other photog's wedding work was 'not up to my standard'. This was obviously a straight comparison given that you also shoot weddings.

And yes, the spelling thing was just a cheap jibe.

melekalikimaka

id kinda a gree slightly.

i'm the same, i feel in areas folk know me here for shooting alot of, i need to tip toe with my comments, as its too easy for folk to assume your comparing to yourself,and tbh its the case alot of the time wheather ya realise or not, as a result i tend to keep out of discussions in areas i work in as it makes you automatically seem quite arrogant when your make negative remarks

smelltheglove

Daire you are seeing things that are not there, the wedding stuff is not up to the stadard I would pay for or expect, I am also recently married myself and often look at other wedding photographers work with a brides point of view rather than a photographers. I feel the only way I can back myself up here is to display the website but as a photographer I have too much respect for other photographers to do that to one.

Back pedalling no, checking to see where you are reading this vision of me from, yes.

I am new to wedding photography and constantly upgrading my work, my clients know this as to my peers, I never claim to be better than the next and I joined this forum quite a while back to help me along my journey of becoming what I want to be, yes I want to have a higher standard than the samples I have seen in this particular website, I dont think it is a crime to aspire to something great and I constantly try to achieve high standards in my work, again not arrogance just the fact that I would like to do well. If you feel that something not being to my taste and not the standard I would purchase is so wrong than maybe you have yourself up on too high a pedastal my friend as I am of the opinion that we are all entitled to our own individual taste.

Speaking of individual taste a lot of my work is aimed at people with individual taste and I am sure there are people here that would readily admit it is not their taste, to that I do not take offence, I know my avenue of interest that I am aiming for. In this instance a simple thread and discussion has been bought way beyond acceptable boundaries to be honest and this is just dirty playground behaviour. Kind of apt for a school discussion then I suppose.

DaireQuinlan

smelltheglove wrote: »

Daire you are seeing things that are not there, the wedding stuff is not up to the stadard I would pay for or expect, I am also recently married myself and often look at other wedding photographers work with a brides point of view rather than a photographers. I feel the only way I can back myself up here is to display the website but as a photographer I have too much respect for other photographers to do that to one.

Very well. Evidently I, and others, just misinterpreted what you were saying.

CabanSail

Can we all just settle down a bit.

Rachel, I must admit that I also understood it to mean the Standard of work that you would produce, as you were debating taking the photo's yourself. I did not find that as arrogant. As I have not seen the work in question I cannot judge if it's better in my opinion or not.

The other thread was drifting OT from the School Portraits, but the tangent was an intersting debate. This thread is the place to have that discussion. Please try to keep things polite & not make them personal. Robust debate is fine.

LightningBolt

I haven't read the other topic that STG and Daire are referring to, seems like STG has put forward her thoughts quite clearly!

Calina

smelltheglove wrote: »

Ufortunately Valentia a lot is lost in type that would be there in conversation....

I'm sorry. I think that this is a cop out. If people are misinterpreting what you are trying to say then I would venture to suggest that the fault lies with you and not with your readers. It is up to you to cater for the inadequacies of type and not assume people can fill in the gaps if you do not wish to be misinterpreted.

Normally I would be of the opinion that if you wish to criticise a photographer's work, the wisest way is to engage with them directly. Likewise if you wish to praise it. A growing number of photographers make this possible.

With respect to comments regarding photographs that are in the zone you work yourself, a lot depends on how you present those comments. I'm not afraid to comment on another photographer's kite photographs for example if I see promise in them. I've also given a lot of my time to people who want to learn more about the stuff I tend to specialise in and I provide a lot of feedback to people who want it. If you are good at what you do and if your comments are valid, then I can't see how they would be perceived as arrogant.

That's my two cents. I'll also add - by the way - that Andy McInroy used to be a very helpful contributor on this board fwiw.

potlatch

The way I see it is there are different implicit rule-books about different kinds of photographs. There's generally a sense that commercially successful wedding photographs are 'good' because they follow certain rules (of visual discourse).

Landscape photographers follow rule-books, for example, and certain factors are decisive in the formation of these rules such as: are the photos commercial, who is the audience and what are their expectations, do you have clients, etc.

Likewise, enthusiasts (who may or may not wish to make photography their profession in some way) have certain reference points for the judgement of photos that may or may not be influenced by certain rule-books, which given their personal interests and circumstances will affect their aesthetic judgement.

Others ignore these implicit rule-books, or explicitly break with them, play with them, etc.

And, as much as these rule-books exist, photographers are fallible and therefore unintentially break with rule-books, but it's a question of aesthetic judgement concerning what is within and without the frame, or aesthetic coherence, that is implicated in thinking a certain photo or photographer is any good.

I think a lot of unneccessary hyperbole and argument by making explicit these rules and judging photos first on that basis and then on the basis of subjective judgement.

Getting that out of the way, it's perfectly legitimate to critique people's photographs in their absence, expecially when they're in the public domain. If it's a matter of critiquing/abusing a photographer on their own website, that's a proprietory issue and it's up to the photographer in question to decide whether the comments should be deleted. Sounds kinda obvious.

Covey

CabanSail wrote: »

I just opened up site you posted for Andy McInroy & have only looked at the photograph on the front page & my opinion is not as high as yours. It's a nicely composed Landscape but the Horizon is not level.

I'm certainly not in any way "a straight horizon" man, but having looked at that photo ( a very fine photo btw) a number of times, the horizon appears pretty level headed to me

CabanSail

Just looked again & you are probably right. It just seemed to dip to the right when I looked at it earlier. Looking inside now there is a lot of fine work in there. I much prefer the Mono work personally.

outspann

In fairness to STG, she is one of the most constructive critique-ers on here. It's not often that she says "I don't like that", so when she does, I feel that she is entitled to her opinion.

As to whether STG meant that it wasn't up to the standard that she would pay for, or the standard she could take herself - what difference does it make? Either way, her opinion is that the photography isn't great. There are "world class" photographers whose work I care for not a jot. Not only that - there are "world class" photographers out there that I think I take better pictures than. Does that mean I think I'm world class+1. Nope. But it does mean that I believe these people are smug, pretentious sell-outs who should be banned from ever holding a camera again.

Slightly OT: I love Ireland, but sometimes I feel that if you stand up and say "i AM good", then you're made to feel ashamed. As if confidence was a bad thing. I bet every one of us on here - myself more than most - would become better photographers if we just had the b*lls to stand up and say "i'm good at this, so feck it, I'm going to do XYZ".

STG - i don't believe you were saying you're a better photographer than him. But I kinda wish that you had...

Covey

Although I don't take landscapes myself, I've followed Andy's work for a longtime now. A very fine photographer imo.

Anouilh

melekalikimaka wrote: »

id kinda a gree slightly.

i'm the same, i feel in areas folk know me here for shooting alot of, i need to tip toe with my comments, as its too easy for folk to assume your comparing to yourself,and tbh its the case alot of the time wheather ya realise or not, as a result i tend to keep out of discussions in areas i work in as it makes you automatically seem quite arrogant when your make negative remarks

Since many of the people here have never met, it's important to keep an upbeat atmosphere. I look at work of professional photographers a lot, but would never dream of comparing my photos or those of posters here with them.

I have a different way of moving forward, which is to start threads that are meant to explore the possibilities of any given technique or subject. In that way, the thread lasts long enough for it to settle and become more relaxed.

It may seem to be OT, but I would really be grateful if we could keep the duotone thread going, with examples of photos that represent the best.

http://wwww.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62217184

STG will see that I very much enjoy her work and would love to see more... as well as that of anybody who has duotonal photos that have not yet been seen here.

Thoie

Calina wrote: »

I'm sorry. I think that this is a cop out. If people are misinterpreting what you are trying to say then I would venture to suggest that the fault lies with you and not with your readers. It is up to you to cater for the inadequacies of type and not assume people can fill in the gaps if you do not wish to be misinterpreted.

I was rather offended on STG's behalf (without knowing her) by the comments on the other thread. I read the "my standard" thing in the way it appears she meant it, so obviously at least one other person was able to understand what she meant.

There seems to be a trend recently to jump down people's throats at the slightest provocation, and it's really quite unpleasant.

On topic, I feel the maxim "Praise in public, criticise in private" would hold. Posting someone else's work just to say how awful it is strikes me as akin to standing around an ugly child and calling him names, or telling the bride on her wedding day that she looks like the back of a bus.

Valentia

outspann wrote: »

Slightly OT: I love Ireland, but sometimes I feel that if you stand up and say "i AM good", then you're made to feel ashamed. As if confidence was a bad thing. I bet every one of us on here - myself more than most - would become better photographers if we just had the b*lls to stand up and say "i'm good at this, so feck it, I'm going to do XYZ".

You may have hit on something here. The US, especially TV, has bread a generation of talentless people whose confidence has got them to the "top". Confidence is no measure of talent whatsoever. Humility is the hallmark of true talent. That's not to say that confident people can't be talented and nice but, unfortunately, it is very often not the case.

It's probably ok to think "I am good". But to stand up and say it? A good kick in the hole comes to mind!

KarmaGarda

Valentia wrote: »

It's probably ok to think "I am good". But to stand up and say it? A good kick in the hole comes to mind!

I think that sums up outspanns point beautifully . In my opinion there's very much a trend to knock anyone down a peg or 2 once they have a notion they are better at something, never mind say it. And it's not just in these forums, it seems to be an Irish trend in general.

In regards to the topic, I think there's a big difference between this topic and calling an ugly child names/slaggin off a bride. This persons work is publicly displayed as their best and for sale. Sure if we took that attitude we'd never get an honest review on a crappy piece of equipment because we should criticise in private. If your service is open to the public, I say you're open to review or criticism.

potlatch

What's even more irritating is seeing good photos ignored because they don't comply with some rules or something.

Valentia

potlatch wrote: »

What's even more irritating is seeing good photos ignored because they don't comply with some rules or something.

A little elaboration would be a great in helping us understand what you mean by this.

In my opinion there's very much a trend to knock anyone down a peg or 2 once they have a notion they are better at something, never mind say it. And it's not just in these forums, it seems to be an Irish trend in general.

Proper order too

potlatch

Valentia wrote: »

A little elaboration would be a great in helping us understand what you mean by this.



Proper order too

I think my previous post situates my comment. If anyone paid attention to it.

Valentia

potlatch wrote: »

I think my previous post situates my comment.

Well, no. Not to me anyway. What rules are you talking about? I don't look up any rules and then make a judgement. Even a cursery glance of the photos on this forum will tell you that there is a massive diversity of styles. Many not going by any "rule book".

"Good photos ignored because they do not comply with some rules or something". What are you talking about (examples)? It's certainly not true here. In fact miles off the mark.

sineadw

At the risk of seeming obvious (given my thanks in his previous thread ) I'm going to agree with Valentia again here. I had this conversation earlier: there are certain mentalities that you expect from certain environments that you might C&C your shots in. I personally find camera club competition judges tend to stick to the 'rules' a bit too much (MHO - and I've been very pleasantly surprised on a number of occasions), but I've generally not found that here. I'm not sure where you're basing that at all?

smelltheglove

I havent been online since early this afternoon and I have to thank the posts here in my defence, Outspann, Anouilh and Thoie.

I have to say as I thought a fair bit about it today there may be a point that I have not expressed myself perfectly although I am always the first to admit that I do not exactly speak (or type) with huge detail, I'm a bit of a simple girl so maybe going forward instead of saying not my standard I will add exactly what I think in my head rather than assuming everybody can tell.

Unfortunately boards photography forum has become a place where posters almost need to tiptoe around in case of being accused of one thing or another, this is a pity as I do like this forum and have met some good friends through here, although we rarely speak face to face it's great to know there are others of like mind. Sometimes it gets the blood boiling to have a little row but other times it goes too far.

On the topic here though as I need to at least pay the thread topic some attention I do think we need have respect for other peoples work, ok its ok to discuss it but lets say you guys were discussing mine, and mentioned my website, then a potential client enters my name to google to see if they can find referrals and up in the top few hits comes this discussion, my livelihood would then be affected, is this fair?

As mentioned here a fear for standing up and saying 'I am good/great' I think it is an admiral trait in a person, not necessarily arrogant, example, hubbie is a fantastic singer and entertainer and would readily admit it, this doesnt make people think he is arrogant as he is very fun loving, he opens his mouth to sing and people realise this is exactly why he can say yes he is great, I have a relative who is a highly successful businessman with warehouse and retail stores and umpteen vehicles on the road daily, he would stand up and say yes he is a great businessman and has the assets and the balance to show it, so why is it frowned upon in photography? I have some good sample shots and would be happy to say yes I am good at what I do although I am quite self critical so I would not say I am great but I look forward to the day when I can say it....

sineadw

smelltheglove wrote: »

lets say you guys were discussing mine, and mentioned my website, then a potential client enters my name to google to see if they can find referrals and up in the top few hits comes this discussion, my livelihood would then be affected, is this fair?

Absolutely, 100%. That's the democracy of the web. Which is why Google works.

Edit - why would referrals from other photographers not be valid?

smelltheglove

Would other photographers be happy to be detrimental to another photographers business? My point being, if you were discussing my website negatively and this showed up in a google search and a potential client decided that since it wasnt to another photographers taste they would look elsewhere hence a loss if income for me.

KarmaGarda

smelltheglove wrote: »

I have to say as I thought a fair bit about it today there may be a point that I have not expressed myself perfectly although I am always the first to admit that I do not exactly speak (or type) with huge detail, I'm a bit of a simple girl so maybe going forward instead of saying not my standard I will add exactly what I think in my head rather than assuming everybody can tell.

Unfortunately boards photography forum has become a place where posters almost need to tiptoe around in case of being accused of one thing or another, this is a pity as I do like this forum and have met some good friends through here, although we rarely speak face to face it's great to know there are others of like mind. Sometimes it gets the blood boiling to have a little row but other times it goes too far.

I agree and disagree with you here, and bear with me for a second.

I agree with there being occassions where people seem to jump in head first. I've tamed my reply count for this reason to be honest. I've often written a full reply to a thread and sat there re reading the damn thing to make sure I'm not going to offend anyone, or have somebody jump down my throat, or have somebody completely take me up the wrong way. To be honest, 8 or 9 times out of 10 I click the back button and just leave it. So I think you've hit the nail on the head.

What do I disagree with? I don't think you should you have to explain yourself in more detail just so some people won't take you up the wrong way. This for me is a double edged sword, and I've seen this happen a lot on forums and chat applications. You say one thing, and if you forget to add a smiley suddenly you're being the biggest a-hole in the world! But, who's in the wrong here? Is the person writing it in the wrong for not being more clear? Or is the person reading it in the wrong for immediately jumping to the negative conclusion? I haven't figured this one out yet.

smelltheglove wrote: »

On the topic here though as I need to at least pay the thread topic some attention I do think we need have respect for other peoples work, ok its ok to discuss it but lets say you guys were discussing mine, and mentioned my website, then a potential client enters my name to google to see if they can find referrals and up in the top few hits comes this discussion, my livelihood would then be affected, is this fair?

Let's put this on it's head. Hypothetically speaking, let's say you weren't a great photographer (I've seen your site, so "hypothetically" is an important word here ). Now let's say all the reviews online are all either good or neutral. A potential client sees this and hires you because of this, and in return is very unsatisfied with your work. Is that fair?

I think personally, if your work is of a good standard (like yours is), you would never have anyone flaming your website anyway. If someones work is genuinely bad, they deserve to be exposed imho.

smelltheglove wrote: »

As mentioned here a fear for standing up and saying 'I am good/great' I think it is an admiral trait in a person, not necessarily arrogant, example, hubbie is a fantastic singer and entertainer and would readily admit it, this doesnt make people think he is arrogant as he is very fun loving, he opens his mouth to sing and people realise this is exactly why he can say yes he is great, I have a relative who is a highly successful businessman with warehouse and retail stores and umpteen vehicles on the road daily, he would stand up and say yes he is a great businessman and has the assets and the balance to show it, so why is it frowned upon in photography? I have some good sample shots and would be happy to say yes I am good at what I do although I am quite self critical so I would not say I am great but I look forward to the day when I can say it....

Words well spoken. :cool:

sineadw

Its a matter of putting your stuff into the public domain on the web, not a matter of being detrimental. Google doesn't differentiate between photographers recommendations or that of someone who just likes photos or a past client or that of the original photographer him/herself. SEO yourself. It helps.

As for being negative about another's photography, I'm not going to go out of my way to badmouth another's work. Of course not. Equally though - nor am I going to be ultra careful not to. If you're a pro photographer then chances are you'll understand (or have someone paid who'll understand) about web marketing.

Valentia

smelltheglove wrote: »

As mentioned here a fear for standing up and saying 'I am good/great' I think it is an admiral trait in a person, not necessarily arrogant, example, hubbie is a fantastic singer and entertainer and would readily admit it, this doesnt make people think he is arrogant as he is very fun loving, he opens his mouth to sing and people realise this is exactly why he can say yes he is great, I have a relative who is a highly successful businessman with warehouse and retail stores and umpteen vehicles on the road daily, he would stand up and say yes he is a great businessman and has the assets and the balance to show it, so why is it frowned upon in photography? I have some good sample shots and would be happy to say yes I am good at what I do although I am quite self critical so I would not say I am great but I look forward to the day when I can say it....

I'm afraid I can't agree with one word of this. Self praise is no praise at all. I can't tell you how many photographers, actors, even singers ( go to any venue any night where people get up and sing and see how many think they are great singers) I have met who think they are God's gift to their profession and are actually totally crap at what they do but nobody ever tells them because they don't want to hurt their feelings. Happens all the time. It is an extremely dangerous presumption to make and leaves a person open to ridicule. This all happens behind their back so the fantasy persists If you don't believe me watch Fair City. I won't give any photographic examples just in case....

smelltheglove

Valentia wrote: »

I'm afraid I can't agree with one word of this. Self praise is no praise at all. I can't tell you how many photographers, actors, even singers ( go to any venue any night where people get up and sing and see how many think they are great singers) I have met who think they are God's gift to their profession and are actually totally crap at what they do but nobody ever tells them because they don't want to hurt their feelings. Happens all the time. It is an extremely dangerous presumption to make and leaves a person open to ridicule. This all happens behind their back so the fantasy persists If you don't believe me watch Fair City. I won't give any photographic examples just in case....

The difference though is here you speak of people who THINK they are great not who KNOW. Biggin yourself up isnt necessarily nice however modesty can also be quite irritating too, I mean if yiou are great and you knwo you are great than admit it for f sake, dont sit in the corner like Baby hiding your talent, go out there and use it and show it. Also, as I said it can be a nice trait which is not necessarily arrogant, but openly giving space there for the arrogant ones, which there are in any walk of life but this does not mean in any way that one should feel ashamed for fear of being branded arrogant, I mean come on you have produced some amazing shots, would you not stand up and say you are great???

Valentia

smelltheglove wrote: »

The difference though is here you speak of people who THINK they are great not who KNOW. Biggin yourself up isnt necessarily nice however modesty can also be quite irritating too, I mean if yiou are great and you knwo you are great than admit it for f sake, dont sit in the corner like Baby hiding your talent, go out there and use it and show it. Also, as I said it can be a nice trait which is not necessarily arrogant, but openly giving space there for the arrogant ones, which there are in any walk of life but this does not mean in any way that one should feel ashamed for fear of being branded arrogant, I mean come on you have produced some amazing shots, would you not stand up and say you are great???

My arse am I great. I've taken one "great" shot in my life. That doesn't make me great. I have taken many "good" shots. That certainly doesn't make me great. Every time I browse the net I see better photographs than mine. That doesn't make me a bad photographer (there are a lot worse) but it certainly doesn't make me a great one. My mother keeps telling me I'm great. My better half keeps telling me I'm a great photographer. It's an expression of endearnment. It's nice. But it is not true. It's important to know ones place.

How does one know when they are great? Someone thinking they are great is as close to a definition of arrogance that I can think of.

KarmaGarda

Valentia wrote: »

Someone thinking they are great is as close to a definition of arrogance that I can think of.

Not quite true. It only becomes arrogance when they treat others as inferior. Admitting you're pretty damn good at something is completely different to knowing your good at something and looking down on others because of it

KarmaGarda

Ok, can a moderator please scold me for falling to temptation to go off topic

AnCatDubh

In terms of the question asked by Dodgykeeper in the opening post - of course its ok to criticise someone's work on the forum. Sure only recently didn't this forum knock the corners off Annie Leibovitz over her advertising campaign works for that brand of coffee - and i'm sure she feels all the better for it :rolleyes:

For recognisable forum members/posters it's slightly different as the general ethos of the forum is that you don't give C&C if you haven't been asked for it (which is why the random thread is a safe harbour for images).

From the running the forum perspective (boards.ie big picture stuff) just don't libel or slander anyone. Other than that published works are fair game as is provided for within the general guidance of the forums charter. Obviously be sensible.

smelltheglove

I suppose it may be based on achievements, i.e. relative with huge business and assets, proof of a great businessman right there, hubbie with numerous offers and demos being sent to the door, respect in area of expertice, a parent with respectable, well mannered children, delivery man who is always on time, solicitor with a high success rate, there are so many examples that can proove greatness in specific fields, photography may be a bit harder, say a photographer with large booking volumes based upon portfolio or basic simple proof of a great portfolio coinciding with respect from peers.