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Irish Nationalism & Reality

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    #32
    La Madame
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭La Madame


    Just excuse me to interrupt the naval gazing for one second.:D
    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    You make broad, sweeping statements to describe up to four million people. Not all are drunk on the idealism of the Nation..
    I find certain forms of Nationalism fairly widespread. Especially the more shallow ideas of Nationalism. Should I still consider this in the greater historical context which nobody can ever escapes once he lives here?


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    By 'people', you mean 'you'. And the above context is a misrepresentation of what Ireland is, which is a typical error of many visitors.

    This is very common. Non Nationals can see other things (and I have that in common with other Non Nationals)


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    People who litter, probably don't love the place. They are ill-bred and have bad manners. They don't care, and they come from all walks of life. But they are not the majority. By contrast, I have been to several European capitals, and I saw litter everywhere. I guess it is a common problem.

    Environmental consciousness is rudimentary; Illegal dumping & other forms of pollution are widespread, (in my opinion the situation is much worse then in Scandinavia or in many places of Central Europe.)
    What has this to do with Irish Nationalism?? I wonder myself. :confused:



    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    It stems mainly from the civil war and the latent tribal culture, perhaps. It's a rather broad question. Although corruption is a common feature of former colonies, so maybe the answer lies there. It has nothing to do with Nationalism, really.
    This is a cardinal point. And has nothing to do with Nationalism? Really?


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Nothing to do with Nationalism, go to the Economics forum (and I mean the good one).

    Economic Problems seem to be a constant companion of the state.


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Nothing to do with nationalism. Why are your questions so ****?
    Just a joke - or do you think that little Willie O'DEA man with the moustache is a pacifist?



    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Twenty years? I don't believe you.
    Oh yes. I first travelled the place in 1979 for 6 month, then I lived permanently here between 1980 & 1983, I was back then every year between 3 weeks and 6 month until 1994 when I decided to live here for good. That brings it up to around 20. In all this time I have seen a lot of political incapability, and general dilettantism.
    I often wonder why it was not possible for the Irish people to create a modern, secular, & wealthy society in the 80 years. Say something like Finland or Switzerland (ok Switzerland had much more time).

    OK I am ready for the abuse now. :P

    Oh I nearly forgot - In the meantime I have somebody with an Irish Passport within my family.
    But I try not to put too much spotlight on to this as i am an Internationalist. - probably until she brings a guy from Ógra Fianna Fáil home.

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    #33
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Because it's easier to be an idealist than be a realist.

    Damn OP, you know us so well.


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    #34
    UltimateMale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭UltimateMale


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Because it's easier to be an idealist than be a realist.

    Damn OP, you know us so well.
    Yeah we should be more realist than idealist and send soldiers off to Iraq and Afghanistan pretending we are a superpower or something and hanging onto a currency like sterling which is becoming more and more like toilet paper.


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    #35
    UltimateMale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭UltimateMale


    La Madame wrote: »
    Economic Problems seem to be a constant companion of the state.
    Economic Problems are a constant companion of every state. Even America the most powerful country in the world has them constantly.


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    #36
    La Madame
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭La Madame


    UltimateMale wrote: »
    Economic Problems are a constant companion of every state. Even America the most powerful country in the world has them constantly.

    The US was the economic Super Power for many decades. Many central European States had a long time of Economic Boom and I do not mean the fake boom the ROI was infested with during the late ninetieth.

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    #37
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Denerick wrote: »
    No, it is not a source of legitimacy for 1918. For it to be a source of legitimacy the voters would have had to been given an implicit declaration of an intention to wage war. SF very clearly did not do so.

    And no, abstention and seperatism does not necessarily entail military conflict. Think of the Austro Hungarian Ausgleich.

    This is a very silly line to maintain. These are the first three points of the SF election manifesto.
    Sinn Féin aims at securing the establishment of that Republic.

    1. By withdrawing the Irish Representation from the British Parliament and by denying the right and opposing the will of the British Government or any other foreign Government to legislate for Ireland.

    2. By making use of any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise.

    3. By the establishment of a constituent assembly comprising persons chosen by Irish constituencies as the supreme national authority to speak and act in the name of the Irish people, and to develop Ireland's social, political and industrial life, for the welfare of the whole people of Ireland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in_Manifesto_1918

    The intentions where quite clear. To set up an Irish Parliament, declare independence and defend that independence. It is indeed incredible for a party with such a radical platform to win so many seats and it surely speaks something of the mood in the country at the time.


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    #38
    UltimateMale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭UltimateMale


    La Madame wrote: »
    The US was the economic Super Power for many decades. Many central European States had a long time of Economic Boom and I do not mean the fake boom the ROI was infested with during the late ninetieth.
    " Many central European States had a long time of Economic Boom "

    Many - name them, errrr, ehmmm, Switzerland ?? :D


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    #39
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    This is a very silly line to maintain. These are the first three points of the SF election manifesto.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in_Manifesto_1918

    The intentions where quite clear. To set up an Irish Parliament, declare independence and defend that independence. It is indeed incredible for a party with such a radical platform to win so many seats and it surely speaks something of the mood in the country at the time.

    Then you don't understand the Irish mood in 1918. The conscription crisis was a much more pressing issue and no SF politician openly campaigned on the issue of military conflict in the 1918 election. Manifesto's mean jack****, then, as they do now.


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    #40
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    You're straining credulity to an incredible extent.

    A modern election manifesto is a decent sized booklet which might declare among other things a parties intent to boost tourism.

    This isnt in anyway equivalent to a radical election manifesto consisting of a one page document, released two years after a major rebellion declaring that a party intents to boycott the British parliament, set up an independent national parliament and defend that new institution "By making use of any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise."

    To dismiss these facts by saying "Manifesto's mean jack****, then, as they do now.", shows a high degree of intellectual dishonesty, presumably motivated by a political bias.


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    #41
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    You're straining credulity to an incredible extent.

    A modern election manifesto is a decent sized booklet which might declare among other things a parties intent to boost tourism.

    This isnt in anyway equivalent to a radical election manifesto consisting of a one page document, released two years after a major rebellion declaring that a party intents to boycott the British parliament, set up an independent national parliament and defend that new institution "By making use of any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise."

    To dismiss these facts by saying "Manifesto's mean jack****, then, as they do now.", shows a high degree of intellectual dishonesty, presumably motivated by a political bias.

    Then you must also say the same about Michael Collins, Arthur Griffith, Richard Mulcahy, Frank Aiken, Kevin O Higgins and many more besides. All of these men declared at one stage or another that 1918 was not a vote endorsing military action. If you really believe that the Irish population made a choice for military action in 1918 then you are simply overlooking the myriad of origins of SFs triumph in that year. Besides, the entire point is moot as SF did not achieve a plurality of the Irish popular vote. The only bias I have is towards truth.


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    #42
    La Madame
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭La Madame


    Exile 1798 & Denerick!
    How does Danny Healy-Rae fit into your (ehem my) discussion?

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    #43
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Denerick wrote: »
    Then you don't understand the Irish mood in 1918. The conscription crisis was a much more pressing issue and no SF politician openly campaigned on the issue of military conflict in the 1918 election. Manifesto's mean jack****, then, as they do now.

    Dev made it clear that military means would be used if necessary.
    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    You're straining credulity to an incredible extent.

    To dismiss these facts by saying "Manifesto's mean jack****, then, as they do now.", shows a high degree of intellectual dishonesty, presumably motivated by a political bias.


    Agree 100%.


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    #44
    Dr_Phil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 711 ✭✭✭Dr_Phil


    La Madame wrote: »
    Why do Irish people put litter all over the place they love so much?
    Why are Irish politics so corrupt or why is Nepotism so widespread?
    Why is the Infrastructure so poor (and that for decades) and why was a certain improvement only achieved with EU money?
    Why is a little fat lady of a dissolved party Minister for Health?
    All these don't matter as long as the bleedin' foreginers are here, littering and taking our jeerbs!!!


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    #45
    La Madame
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭La Madame


    Dr_Phil wrote: »
    All these don't matter as long as the bleedin' foreginers are here, littering and taking our jeerbs!!!

    Some time ago I asked a local about the constant illegal dumping.
    He said to me : 'that's the Poles'
    There are no Polish in our rural area and the typical illegal dumps in the monoculture forests are in use as long as I can remember.

    But I have heard that the Chinks in Dublin take the jobs of the Locals because they work night & day.

    Day & Night! Imagine. ;)

    Beer Drinkers support Farmers!

    Abolish infamous Minimum Unit Pricing!



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    #46
    Dr_Phil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 711 ✭✭✭Dr_Phil


    La Madame wrote: »
    Some time ago I asked a local about the constant illegal dumping.
    He said to me : 'that's the Poles'
    Ah sure, recent floods were caused by the Poles too...

    As a side note, seeing that I don't have a clue (I was pretending well, haha) the " decent local lad", a builder, gave me an estimate of 12k for a job that was carried out for 5k by "the bleedin' foreigners" (Romanians, registered and certified for this sort of works) and he simply made up issues that meant to be "fixed" but didn't really exist (checked with a couple independent builders). And then when I think of that smelly fcuk who wanted to rob me I wish for him to stay on a dole for the rest of his stinky days, moaning about foreigners, who "took his job".


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