the official Brazillian GP thread

G-Money · 18-10-2009 7:23pm

Poor Rubens. That's probably his last chance to be a world champion. The rumours are that he's off to Williams next year and I doubt they'll be in a position to challenge for the championship, either the drivers or constructors.

amacachi · 18-10-2009 7:24pm

me@ucd wrote: »

last to post wins :pac:
agree to disagree

No, it's a discussion forum, and I'd like to discuss exactly who you feel should have won the title this year. He and Rubens were given the same car at the start of the year and he managed to get a helluva lot more out of the car for a large part of the season. Once he got into a good lead he did what he had to do to win the title. Look at what happened in 2007. If Hamilton had taken a leaf out of Jenson's book he'd have won the title in both of his first two seasons. As it is he didn't deserve to win the title that year and Kimi will always be the one who won the title that year.

amacachi · 18-10-2009 7:25pm

Gintonious wrote: »

I just want 2010 please, couldnt care less if Button won it or not, doesnt change my opinion that he is at best an average driver.

Surely Rubens should be having his Super Licence revoked in that case?

Frank Bullitt · 18-10-2009 7:31pm

amacachi wrote: »

Surely Rubens should be having his Super Licence revoked in that case?

How do you figure that?

IM0 · 18-10-2009 7:32pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I think rubens can count himself quite lucky, he left ferrari probably thinking thats the end of any sort of championships or wins. He had a excellent season one last big hurrah perhaps before he drives into the horizon (and into saloon racing )

Agree except he's probably going to williams next year, but yeah this was definately a bonus year for him.

Glico Man · 18-10-2009 7:32pm

me@ucd wrote: »

I dont care what you say one great drive doesnt make you a worthy champion. He for sure brought his stock back up, but....

More points than everyone else makes you a worthy champion

amacachi · 18-10-2009 7:37pm

Gintonious wrote: »

How do you figure that?

If Button is only average then Rubens must be horrifically bad.

IM0 · 18-10-2009 7:43pm

can anyone remember a season which a driver started out winning (in the best car) and then went on to limp through (you know scoring almost no pts and 7/8 pos) and win the championship?

Ive looked back to 1999 and cant find one yet.

Oblomov · 18-10-2009 7:45pm

Ok so Button is champion... it's like the girl at school, everyone knew she was there but not the most popular, suddenly gets lucky and she's everyone's favourite.

But, is he a winner? Does he have the aggression and drive to pick up the car and make it win?... got to be No.

maybe even too nice.

Good driver, smooth, but over the years, every one waited for his first win and only when he's in an exemplary car does it come good.

You have to remember the controversy at the beginning of the season and the mumbling about rules and division.

amacachi · 18-10-2009 7:51pm

me@ucd wrote: »

can anyone remember a season which a driver started out winning (in the best car) and then went on to limp through (you know scoring almost no pts and 7/8 pos) and win the championship?

Ive looked back to 1999 and cant find one yet.

Again, what's your point? I think I'll be somewhat facetious and say that in 2007 Kimi obviously just limped around for some of the early season and just won at the end with the fastest car. So he didn't deserve to win the title.

LEIN · 18-10-2009 7:51pm

Good start, ok middle, boring end.

Button does not deserve that title by a long shot. After his years of moaning about how bad Honda where when he should have been working with the team. A team player should have been in that seat!

Running Bing · 18-10-2009 7:54pm

Tbh when I hear people come out with the "best car" argument I can only assume they dont know much about the sport and tbh I wouldnt have a lot of respect for their opinion.

Buttons just won a world championship...dont care who you are or where your from, thats feckin immense and he deserves massive respect and credit.

There are lots of successful sportsmen that I would personally dislike but that should'nt take away from their achievements. I try my best not to let personal dislike cloud my judgement I only wish others could extend that courtesy to JB.

Congrats to him anyway and what a great great guy Rubens is too. Was very happy to see Button win it (he is an immensely talented driver and on his day as good as anybody) but Rubens also deserves massive credit and in the end I felt so sorry for him.

Oblomov · 18-10-2009 7:55pm

A quick check...Jenson Button.

Won his first GP, Hungry 2006 after everyone went off in the rain.. from 14th on the grid.

After 113 starts

Youngest pole position, ranked 10th aged 24 years and 97 days.

Only flattered to deceive.

Running Bing · 18-10-2009 7:57pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

Button does not deserve that title by a long shot. After his years of moaning about how bad Honda where when he should have been working with the team. A team player should have been in that seat!

Where you feckin born yesterday?

Do you think the championship is decided by a feckin jury? You do know its decided by points dont you?

Button had more points than anybody else at the end of the season therefore he is world champion. Seems simple enough...or would he be more worthy if he had limped through the first half of the season and then started winning races?(I bet nobody would be saying he isnt worthy then).

Again when I see opinions like this I think one of two things...incomplete knowledge of how the sport works or massive personal dislike for the guy.:rolleyes:

amacachi · 18-10-2009 7:59pm

Oblomov wrote: »

A quick check...Jenson Button.

Won his first GP, Hungry 2006 after everyone went off in the rain.. from 14th on the grid.

After 113 starts

Youngest pole position, ranked 10th aged 24 years and 97 days.

Only flattered to deceive.

Wonder if the fact he had so few decent cars during his career has any influence on that.

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 8:00pm

Keke Rosberg and Mike Hawthorn both won their world drivers titles by winning only one race in the whole season. Were they worthy champions? Yes, of course they were because they scored more points than anyone else could manage to do.

Like Jenson Button this year, when the opportunities presented themselves, they seized them when other drivers didn't. Barrichello had the same car as Button so he can have no excuses. Webber and Vettel failed to capitalise on dips in Buttons form for various reasons.

Any talk of Button not being a worthy champion smacks of sour grapes and possibly also a lack of knowledge of F1 as a sport.

Frank Bullitt · 18-10-2009 8:01pm

amacachi wrote: »

If Button is only average then Rubens must be horrifically bad.

If memory serves,this is the first time Jenson has gotten the better of him since turkey?after that they changed the brake material and the car was more suited to reubens and not jenson,other teams had also caught up at this stage,Button had it easy in my opinion at the start of the season,as i said though,in my opinion he is average at best.

Normal service will resume soon.

amacachi · 18-10-2009 8:01pm

Right **** this, from now on I have a proposal for how the title should be decided based on some of what I've seen on this forum:

"Aggression": Each driver is given 1km to build up as much speed as they dare and then crash head on into a wall. Whoever hits it hardest wins.

LEIN · 18-10-2009 8:03pm

Running Bing wrote: »

Where you feckin born yesterday?

Do you think the championship is decided by a feckin jury? You do know its decided by points dont you?

Button had more points than anybody else at the end of the season therefore he is world champion. Seems simple enough...or would he be more worthy if he had limped through the first half of the season and then started winning races?(I bet nobody would be saying he isnt worthy then).

Again when I see opinions like this I think one of two things...incomplete knowledge of how the sport works or massive personal dislike for the guy.:rolleyes:

Less of the personal stuff!

And your point makes no sense. No mention of points are anything like it in my last post. Was talking about driver in general.

homer90 · 18-10-2009 8:03pm

Guys - is the race repeated anwhere tonight ?
No highlights on BBC it seems :mad:

My sky box was switched off :mad:

amacachi · 18-10-2009 8:04pm

Gintonious wrote: »

If memory serves,this is the first time Jenson has gotten the better of him since turkey?after that they changed the brake material and the car was more suited to reubens and not jenson,other teams had also caught up at this stage,Button had it easy in my opinion at the start of the season,as i said though,in my opinion he is average at best.

Normal service will resume soon.

5-4 to Barrichello since Turkey.

IM0 · 18-10-2009 8:18pm

Running Bing wrote: »

Tbh when I hear people come out with the "best car" argument I can only assume they dont know much about the sport and tbh I wouldnt have a lot of respect for their opinion..

tbh when I hear people come out with button is a world class top of his game driver, I can only assume they dont know much about his career before Brawn GP

and I wouldnt have much respect for their opinion. [shrug]

robinph · 18-10-2009 8:18pm

amacachi wrote: »

5-4 to Barrichello since Turkey.

89-72 to Button since Austrailia.

Oblomov · 18-10-2009 8:19pm

They mentioned BBC 3 at 11 something for hi-lights and a Jenson Button special... shouldn't be too long.

love the way, it's not the car when he's winning but it is the car when he doesn't win.... consistent..

amacachi · 18-10-2009 8:23pm

Oblomov wrote: »

They mentioned BBC 3 at 11 something for hi-lights and a Jenson Button special... shouldn't be too long.

love the way, it's not the car when he's winning but it is the car when he doesn't win.... consistent..

Yup, I didn't hear him praise the car or team once in the first half of the season. /sarcasm

EvilMonkey · 18-10-2009 8:28pm

me@ucd wrote: »

tbh when I hear people come out with button is a world class top of his game driver, I can only assume they dont know much about his career before Brawn GP
and I wouldnt have much respect for their opinion. [shrug]

Show me where someone said he was "a world class top of his game driver" in this thread?

He wrapped the title up with one race to go, he has the most points over the season and he has the most wins. That means he deserves to win the WDC.
Its that simple.

Rubens isn't even guaranteed second place ffs

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 8:29pm

Oblomov wrote: »

love the way, it's not the car when he's winning but it is the car when he doesn't win.... consistent..

Now you're just talking out of your backside.

Did you watch all the races this year or do you just base your opinions on what you read in the media? Button heaped praise on the team for the job they did in designing and preparing his car whenever he was successful.

IM0 · 18-10-2009 8:36pm

Ok so to all the new Jenson fanboys:

Was the Brawn GP car the "best car" from Australia to Barcelona?

If you answer no then its an automatic fail no need to continue the questionaire!

If you answered yes then you are admitting the Brawn GP car was the "best car" and either way your arguement lies in flames

Jenson was winning in the first 7 races BEACAUSE HE HAD THE BEST CAR!!!!
so did rubins but Jensons driving style was more suited to the car.
Post the major upgrade, the car went back to Rubins style of driving (less smooth more aggressive)

but If you look at the drivers table by race you will that rubins results are consistent 'good' car 'bad' car, wheras Jensons are only 'good' when the car is what? __>>GOOD, so he can drive well with a car setup in his sweet spot, but cant handle a not so good car, like a certain Jarno Trulli.

The End.

robinph · 18-10-2009 8:37pm

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

Now you're just talking out of your backside.

Did you watch all the races this year or do you just base your opinions on what you read in the media? Button heaped praise on the team for the job they did in designing and preparing his car whenever he was successful.

Yep, and if the search was working it wouldn't be too tricky to find posts with people complaining about the way he was doing that at the end of each race.

robinph · 18-10-2009 8:41pm

me@ucd wrote: »

The End.

Somehow I doubt that.

IM0 · 18-10-2009 8:41pm

EvilMonkey wrote:

He warped the title up with one race to go,

semantics is fun isnt it :rolleyes:

EvilMonkey · 18-10-2009 8:43pm

me@ucd wrote: »

Ok so to all the new Jenson fanboys:

Was the Brawn GP car the "best car" from Australia to Barcelona?

If you answer no then its an automatic fail no need to continue the questionaire!

If you answered yes then you are admitting the Brawn GP car was the "best car" and either way your arguement lies in flames

Jenson was winning in the first 7 races BEACAUSE HE HAD THE BEST CAR!!!!
so did rubins but Jensons driving style was more suited to the car.
Post the major upgrade, the car went back to Rubins style of driving (less smooth more aggressive)

but If you look at the drivers table by race you will that rubins results are consistent 'good' car 'bad' car, wheras Jensons are only 'good' when the car is what? __>>GOOD, so he can drive well with a car setup in his sweet spot, but cant handle a not so good car, like a certain Jarno Trulli.

The End.

Brawn GP had the best car over the season they won the constructors title :P
I don't see how saying he deserve the title makes you a fanboy

They don't give WDC for consistency, if they did Heidfeld would have one

robinph · 18-10-2009 8:43pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

God forbid if he has a good car and he wins the WC!

Maybe they should have a prize for the team that has the best car as well.

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 8:49pm

me@ucd wrote: »

Ok so to all the new Jenson fanboys:

This is not an issue of people suddenly becoming 'fanboys'. It's simply a case of someone getting the credit they deserve.

me@ucd wrote: »

Was the Brawn GP car the "best car" from Australia to Barcelona?

If you answer no then its an automatic fail no need to continue the questionaire!

If you answered yes then you are admitting the Brawn GP car was the "best car" and either way your arguement lies in flames

Yes, it was the best car, I don't think any observer would say otherwise but what you seem to be failing to realise is that over the course of the history of the F1 world championship the driver who is fortunate enough to be seated in the best car won the world title on the vast, vast majority of occasions. Fangio, Prost, Senna and even Schumacher were all in such a position for the majority of the time they were successful. Does that mean that they did not deserve to win the world championship too? By your logic, it would seem so.

me@ucd wrote: »

Jenson was winning in the first 7 races BEACAUSE HE HAD THE BEST CAR!!!!
so did rubins but Jensons driving style was more suited to the car.
Post the major upgrade, the car went back to Rubins style of driving (less smooth more aggressive)

but If you look at the drivers table by race you will that rubins results are consistent 'good' car 'bad' car, wheras Jensons are only 'good' when the car is what? __>>GOOD, so he can drive well with a car setup in his sweet spot, but cant handle a not so good car, like a certain Jarno Trulli.

The End.

If Rubens was more consistent then wouldn't he be world champion now?

LEIN · 18-10-2009 8:51pm

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

Now you're just talking out of your backside.

Did you watch all the races this year or do you just base your opinions on what you read in the media? Button heaped praise on the team for the job they did in designing and preparing his car whenever he was successful.

Yes he may have praised the team when they produce the goods.

When they where Honda and had pretty bad cars he was publicly slating them instead of getting behind them and making a winning car.

So tbh i think that makes him a two faced so am so.

amacachi · 18-10-2009 8:51pm

me@ucd wrote: »

Ok so to all the new Jenson fanboys:

Was the Brawn GP car the "best car" from Australia to Barcelona?

If you answer no then its an automatic fail no need to continue the questionaire!

If you answered yes then you are admitting the Brawn GP car was the "best car" and either way your arguement lies in flames

Jenson was winning in the first 7 races BEACAUSE HE HAD THE BEST CAR!!!!
so did rubins but Jensons driving style was more suited to the car.
Post the major upgrade, the car went back to Rubins style of driving (less smooth more aggressive)

but If you look at the drivers table by race you will that rubins results are consistent 'good' car 'bad' car, wheras Jensons are only 'good' when the car is what? __>>GOOD, so he can drive well with a car setup in his sweet spot, but cant handle a not so good car, like a certain Jarno Trulli.

The End.

Since the "bad car" how many more points has Rubens scored than Jenson? 10. He has outscored him by 1.1 points a race despite as you claim having the car more suited to him. How many more did Jenson score in the first 7 races? 24, which is about 3 and a half points a race. And even since the car has been more suited to Barrichello (your affirmation, not mine) he's only beaten Button once more than Button has beaten him.

robinph · 18-10-2009 8:54pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

Yes he may have praised the team when they produce the goods.

When they where Honda and had pretty bad cars he was publicly slating them instead of getting behind them and making a winning car.

So tbh i think that makes him a two faced so am so.

What? Praise them for producing a rubbish car?

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 8:57pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

Yes he may have praised the team when they produce the goods.

When they where Honda and had pretty bad cars he was publicly slating them instead of getting behind them and making a winning car.

So tbh i think that makes him a two faced so am so.

How does that make him two faced? He told the truth at all times. He is not the first and won't be the last driver to criticise his team when they are underperforming.

LEIN · 18-10-2009 9:02pm

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

How does that make him two faced? He told the truth at all times. He is not the first and won't be the last driver to criticise his team when they are underperforming.

He is not a team player. Never was and never will be! Great when things are right and when things go wrong the team are at fault.

Ghost Train · 18-10-2009 9:06pm

me@ucd wrote: »

Ok so to all the new Jenson fanboys:

Was the Brawn GP car the "best car" from Australia to Barcelona?

If you answer no then its an automatic fail no need to continue the questionaire!

If you answered yes then you are admitting the Brawn GP car was the "best car" and either way your arguement lies in flames

Jenson was winning in the first 7 races BEACAUSE HE HAD THE BEST CAR!!!!
so did rubins but Jensons driving style was more suited to the car.
Post the major upgrade, the car went back to Rubins style of driving (less smooth more aggressive)

but If you look at the drivers table by race you will that rubins results are consistent 'good' car 'bad' car, wheras Jensons are only 'good' when the car is what? __>>GOOD, so he can drive well with a car setup in his sweet spot, but cant handle a not so good car, like a certain Jarno Trulli.

The End.

Rubens had the car Jenson had the whole year. Jenson was the better driver over the course of the season.

The redbull and the brawn were pretty close all year, I think the diffusser was the difference at the start of the year.

Always liked Jenson, always liked the way he races, don't think he's the best driver but just like hamilton, kimi, alonso, he deserves the title for being the best driver this year.

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 9:07pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

He is not a team player. Never was and never will be! Great when things are right and when things go wrong the team are at fault.

Damo, you really are talking a load of rubbish here and I suspect your knowledge of F1 is quite limited when you make statements like this.

The fact is, if the team builds a car that is not competitive then they are indeed at fault. Honda admitted as much when they built last years dog of a car and quickly scrapped development of it in order to concentrate on producing a competitive car for this season.

LEIN · 18-10-2009 9:11pm

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

Damo, you really are talking a load of rubbish here and I suspect your knowledge of F1 is quite limited when you make statements like this.

The fact is, if the team builds a car that is not competitive then they are indeed at fault. Honda admitted as much when they built last years dog of a car and quickly scrapped development of it in order to concentrate on producing a competitive car for this season.

Is that right?

How come Renault, Ferrari and a couple of other teams drivers are not slating them publicly this year after the bad cars they have delivered this year?

Oblomov · 18-10-2009 9:12pm

The drivers will keep quiet about the quality of the car all the time the management is on-side... when they get disgruntled then the moans start.. but . the multi championship winners seem very reluctant to upset a motivated team, regardless of the position in either drivers or constructors championship.

Button has not been able to present a dominant and controlling position, quali has been very hit and miss and race performance is reliant on team tactics rather than driver's skill and performance.

Count the number of times Ruben has had the unfortunate twist of fate.. even to the point of complaining, loudly, about the car. Then Buttons carp about info between team-mates... all is not smooth and plain sailing at Brawn..... and Jenson has yet to agree a new contract for 2010.

Any suggestions?

EvilMonkey · 18-10-2009 9:12pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

He is not a team player. Never was and never will be! Great when things are right and when things go wrong the team are at fault.

Your right Rubens the team made me loose the race Barrichello is much more of a team player.

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 9:15pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

Is that right?

How come Renault, Ferrari and a couple of other teams drivers are not slating them publicly this year after the bad cars they have delivered this year?

I can certainly recall some members of those teams making uncomplimentary remarks about their cars - not just the drivers but the management too.

May I ask, what in you opinion should a driver say when his team produces a bad car for him? Would "The car is great but I just can't drive for toffee" be acceptable to you?

LEIN · 18-10-2009 9:18pm

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

I can certainly recall some members of those teams making uncomplimentary remarks about their cars - not just the drivers but the management too.

May I ask, what in you opinion should a driver say when his team produces a bad car for him? Would "The car is great but I just can't drive for toffee" be acceptable to you?

Keep it in the team and workout a solution to the problems or start work on next years car. Just like Ferrari have this year.

Firewalkwithme · 18-10-2009 9:25pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

Keep it in the team and workout a solution to the problems or start work on next years car. Just like Ferrari have this year.

Sorry Damo but keeping it in the team just doesn't happen when reality doesn't live up to expectations. There will always be times when someone will vent their frustrations to the media since they will always be asking the difficult questions until they get the quote they want.

robinph · 18-10-2009 9:26pm

Plenty of drivers saying that they had rubbish cars during any season.

Slutmonkey57b · 18-10-2009 9:32pm

Damo: Total bull on all counts.
Button supported that team and didn't slate them when it produced ****e cars for 4 years in a row, right in the middle of the peak of his potential racing career, watching his reputation as a driver take a massive hit as a result. Yes he got caught up in "buttongate" but that's the fault of his management for not managing contract negotiations properly. When the car was ****e in 2007, and everything was going nowhere, he kept it in the team, and told them unless they got someone like Brawn in, he would have to leave. A driver stating at the end of a race "the car is a dog to drive" isn't slating his team, he's being truthful, and they don't make statements like that as a throwaway, unless they're Rubens.

Oblomov · 18-10-2009 9:41pm

But, that's not the way to win friends and influence people... you keep quiet becasue you're only the driver... the engineers, the tyre people and the machanics and the fuel guys and the engine men all contribute and to get the prima donna mouthing it off does not win friends and make for a winning team.

And that's a fact of life.

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