the official Brazillian GP thread

Iron Hide

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I thought Webber was a bit aggressive on kimi but the move was a single move so it was fair.

Kobayashi did a bit of a double move on Nakajima so im not so sure. Would like to see it again.
He was ok in the race, did well in front of Button.
Like i said earlier i think he is a bit like Sato and will be fast and aggressive and crash a fair bit because he wont give up easily.

With that said, himself and Sutil would be some hell of a partnership. the words train wreck come to mind :P

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

Were we watching the same race, Martin Brundle commentd on the weave and taking Nakajima out....as Brundle said.... you might do that in the lower formulas but not in F1

I'll wait til I see a replay, but it looked to me like Nakajima went into the back rather than the side of Kobayashi, indicating the "weave" had completed before the contact. Also bear in mind Rubens gave himself a puncture by weaving and hitting Button.

Mike Litoris

Oblomov wrote: »

Since Button appeared on the F1 scene and mostly ftom his father's money... he has played the part of the playboy and appear to believe his own PR.. a dangerous thing for anyone to do. he has not had the acclaim from his colleagues and the various scrapes he has got into over contracts have left a lot of people shaking their heads.

Lol, firstly explain "mostly from his fathers money" and then how it's any different to any of the other drivers in F1 today.

Slutmonkey57b

Oblomov wrote: »

Were we watching the same race, Martin Brundle commentd on the weave and taking Nakajima out....as Brundle said.... you might do that in the lower formulas but not in F1

Qute right, if you watch the replay, Kobayashi clearly moves across twice off the racing line to block nakajima and took him out. Brawn reported him to race control for doing the same thing in the braking zones into the corners.

Since Button appeared on the F1 scene and mostly ftom his father's money... he has played the part of the playboy and appear to believe his own PR.. a dangerous thing for anyone to do. he has not had the acclaim from his colleagues and the various scrapes he has got into over contracts have left a lot of people shaking their heads.

Sorry, but factually incorrect again.
Button never had his father's money to rely on in F1, unlike Piquet Jr, or lots of other journeyman drivers. He ended up in F1 on the strength of the word of mouth from his F3 team, and never had the gilded path into F1 in terms of sponsorship money that Lewis Hamilton, for example, had.

His colleagues have said over and over that Button is a talented driver who hasn't had the equipment that suits him. Hamilton says he was like a god to the young kids coming up in karting. Yes he's a picky driver. So was Prost, nobody thinks any less of Prost.... Button is reknowned as one of the most down to earth, open, grounded and decent drivers in the paddock.

The only person who ended up "shaking their head" over Jenson's contractual situation was Flav. The less said about him the better, and in any case as I pointed out before, contractual problems are the fault of his management, not him.

amacachi

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

And yet again you are wrong. You really should try to do some basic research before making an assertion like that. Read this and you might learn something:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8312844.stm

Last bit of that article I'd disagree with, Hamilton has to be one of the least adaptable drivers I've come across. He has two speeds, all-out and let's-try-to-shred-the-tyres. Give him and Alonso, Kimi, Jenson, Massa and numerous others a car set-up the same and give them a target for 10 laps and see whose tyres look the worst at the end. It's what cost him the title in 2007.

Ghost Train

amacachi wrote: »

Am I the only one who saw very little wrong with Kobayashi's driving? At one point he made a perfect manouevre when he saw Button going too fast in, he let him past then took the place back, excellent stuff. And Nakajima went right into the back of him, just like Kimi did into Webber. So if Kobayashi was in the wrong then as far as I'm concerned so was Webber.

Watched it a few times and he seemed to jink out and then moved back in on Nakajima, didn't see much wrong with how he raced Button. I think Webber/Kimi was just webber taking the inside of the corner, think webber should have left some room to avoid the clash, he was late moving across and Kimi couldn't really get out of it. Mark was lucky it didn't knock him off.

Looks like both judged as racing incidents and Kobayashi drove great for his first race, do think that crash was more his fault than Nakajimas

IM0

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

And yet again you are wrong. You really should try to do some basic research before making an assertion like that. Read this and you might learn something:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8312844.stm

Im so glad you posted that you just backed up one of the major pts I was making earlier about needing the right car under him (ala Trulli)

from the above article:

For someone of his immense gift, he is generally overly sensitive to a car's characteristics. He needs the car to be exactly right to have access to his full talent.
If the car is anything other than that, if it suffers from any measure of instability at the rear under braking or into the corner, then he is not good at improvising a different style.
When this happens,

his various team-mates usually manage to go faster and it is probably not a coincidence that Button was clearly faster than Barrichello this year when the car was at its best, but the positions were reversed when its competitiveness dropped off.



Button is not therefore as reliable a performer as Hamilton or Alonso, who can always improvise some sort of performance from their cars, can always access most of what is there.


But give him a well-balanced car and he is devastating.

does anything more need to be said!

Slutmonkey57b

ALL drivers need the "right" car under them.

Hamilton and Kimi need oversteery, point and squirt cars. Put them in something that doesn't look after the tyres for them, and they're buggered.

F1 cars are so finicky, and so close to the wire in their basic nature, that it takes very little to take them out of the zone where drivers can get the most out of them.

Button has done a better job over the season than Hamilton did, or Kimi. He may not be able to adapt his driving style to a different setup - that's why all the cars are set up differently, even in the same team. In fact, he discussed this at singapore I think where he explained that the way he and Rubens brake and handle the car is so different that Rubens can naturally run the car lower than he can - he changed to Ruben's setup and ended up bottoming out and flattening the tyres. Equally, Rubens has stated that the way he uses the brakes, he couldn't run the same brake material that Jenson has been using for the past few years.

The factual information that "Driver A needs a car set up a certain way" doesn't mean that Driver A is crap. If anything, it means that the designers and engineers have failed to set up the car properly, knowing what they have to design towards.

Iron Hide

me@ucd wrote: »

Im so glad you posted that you just backed up one of the major pts I was making earlier about needing the right car under him (ala Trulli)

from the above article:
does anything more need to be said!

Do us all a favour and take your I Hate Jenson Button attitude somewhere else, you've tried to make your point several times and been corrected or beaten with a better argument by someone who 1. Knows what they're on about and 2. Can accept other peoples opinion and points of view.

So for the love of god just leave it rest will ya..

EvilMonkey

I must say i enjoyed seeing Heki drive off with the fuel hose after the abuse Ferrari got about their traffic light system last year. Although quickly brought down to earth when i saw the fireball on Kimi. I wouldn't like to be cleaning his race suite

I haven't seen an on-board replay but It looks like they saw Kimi pull out and either Heki drove himself or the lollipop man released him too quick to stay in front.
Very sporting of the Brawn mechanics to pull the hose off, i didn't see anyone help Massa like that last year I guess they didn't want stuck in front of their garage.

robinph

me@ucd wrote: »

does anything more need to be said!

So? He had the good car for enough of the season and got more points, that is the point surely?

You seem to be saying that if the car had been crappier all season then he wouldn't have won. Correct, however neither would Barrichello who now looks like he'll be finishing in third in the championship unless he can take two points back from Vettel at the next race. If the car had been consistently rubbish all year then we wouldn't be talking about Brawn drivers and them winning the championship. Just like there is no talk of Ferrari or McLaren drivers and the possibilities of them winning the championship since about the first lap in Australia probably.

You don't win if you happen to have a rubbish car, you also don't win if your a rubbish driver.

robinph

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Very sporting of the Brawn mechanics to pull the hose off, i didn't see anyone help Massa like that last year I guess they didn't want stuck in front of their garage.

Mercedes do supply the engines for Brawn, maybe if it happened to Massa and he stopped in front of the Torro Rosso garage they would have helped him out?

IM0

Red Storm wrote: »

So for the love of god just leave it rest will ya..

Gladly, but if you look back through the thread you'll see that I voted for that around post #153 (of about 270) and realised a dead horse would inevitably be flogged to death...and didnt post for alot of time, just watched the arguements put forward, and mentality of some of the people
posting and stayed out of it, so dont say I kept it going k?

me@ucd #153 wrote:

last to post wins :pac:
agree to disagree

but if it means anything Im torn between being glad he won, but tad disappointed the way it was done

EvilMonkey

robinph wrote: »

Mercedes do supply the engines for Brawn, maybe if it happened to Massa and he stopped in front of the Torro Rosso garage they would have helped him out?

Yeah Massa should have blocked someone's garage

ednwireland

jenson should have his title taken away for attempting to sing we are the champions over the race radio on the warm down lap

obviously why honda couldnt give him a good car, crap at karaoke

robinph

ednwireland wrote: »

jenson should have his title taken away for attempting to sing we are the champions over the race radio on the warm down lap

obviously why honda couldnt give him a good car, crap at karaoke

Yep, that was pretty awful. But speaking of karaoke I seem to remember Jordan keeping on going on about making Brawn do some karaoke for some reason if they won, not sure why though?

It is sometimes a bit cringeworthy watching Jordan during any of the bits with the three of them wandering around the pit lane, Coulthard and the other bloke just look scared about what he'll do or say next. Cameraman was trying his best to keep Jordan out of the picture afterwards yesterday as well when they were in the Brawn garage and he started "singing" and "dancing" with the mechanics.

Ghost Train

I thought it was really good to see Brawn help McLaren out with the fuel hose, good sportsmanship, Kovalainen had an unlucky race, Vettel and Hamilton probably more responsible for the accident and was the team that raise the lollipop

cadaliac

Great race, congrats to Jenson Button, he Deserved it!
Next season should be a cracker with the new driver line up. Ferrari and Mclaren will have a good battle (considering their driver line up) , Brawn should go from strength to strength - if they get the correct Engine backing from the Germans.
Anyway, I am delighted for Jenson, I feel slight anger with Ferrari (as a team), happy for Brawn GP and I look forward to next season - after the next race of course.

sham69

Fair play to button, deserved on the first half of the season alone.
Felt a bit for Ruebens, he never gets any luck but did seem off the pace in the dry.
Looking forward to next season, I reckon Vettel will be the man to beat...

thebman

robinph wrote: »

Yep, that was pretty awful. But speaking of karaoke I seem to remember Jordan keeping on going on about making Brawn do some karaoke for some reason if they won, not sure why though?

It is sometimes a bit cringeworthy watching Jordan during any of the bits with the three of them wandering around the pit lane, Coulthard and the other bloke just look scared about what he'll do or say next. Cameraman was trying his best to keep Jordan out of the picture afterwards yesterday as well when they were in the Brawn garage and he started "singing" and "dancing" with the mechanics.

I think EJ's doing what he always did, acting like EJ and injecting personality into what would otherwise be a professional and uneventful broadcast.

I thought it was a laugh seeing him get in on the celebration. Maybe not very BBC like but very EJ like.

robinph

thebman wrote: »

I think EJ's doing what he always did, acting like EJ and injecting personality into what would otherwise be a professional and uneventful broadcast.

I thought it was a laugh seeing him get in on the celebration. Maybe not very BBC like but very EJ like.

He wasn't actually too bad after the race yesterday, at least it was appropriate to the situation.

He does ask some bloody daft questions though when they are interviewing people the rest of the time, and completely goes of on a tangent to what everyone else is talking about.

thebman

robinph wrote: »

He wasn't actually too bad after the race yesterday, at least it was appropriate to the situation.

He does ask some bloody daft questions though when they are interviewing people the rest of the time, and completely goes of on a tangent to what everyone else is talking about.

Yeah I think he just does his own thing and likes trying to catch people off guard.

Makes interviews with people more like job interviews :P

He is good for a laugh though and it keeps the coverage interesting IMO. I'd rather have him there than not have him. Him and Coulthard having the odd argument makes it seem sort of like RTE Premiership coverage

I was chatting to an English mate on chat during the GP and he seemed pretty entertained by EJ as always so I think he's wacky in a charming kind of way.

tunguska

Have to say, I cant remember there being a more unlikeable world champion than Jenson Button.
There was a Documentary on the Tv the other night about Seve Ballesteros and in it Peter Allis made the comment that there are a lot of sportsmen who are admired by people but there are very few who are loved. Seve was a great champion who was admired but also loved by people. Jenson Button will never have that said about him.

thebman

I dunno he is a nice guy. Comes across as an honest guy that loves motorsport passionately and a humble world champion.

Mike Litoris

tunguska wrote: »

Have to say, I cant remember there being a more unlikeable world champion than Jenson Button.

For you or in general? Ever heard of Senna or Schumacher?:rolleyes:

frostie500

tunguska wrote: »

Have to say, I cant remember there being a more unlikeable world champion than Jenson Button

There's a pretty big difference between unlikeable and unpopular

Muff_Daddy

tunguska wrote: »

Have to say, I cant remember there being a more unlikeable world champion than Jenson Button.

:eek: What? Schumacher? Jacques Villenuve? Piquet Sr? They are names spring to mind immedietly.

Say what you will about Button's ability, but he is definitly one of the good guys in F1.

EvilMonkey

Its not x factor who gives a **** how popular they are.

pburns

robinph wrote: »

It is sometimes a bit cringeworthy watching Jordan during any of the bits with the three of them wandering around the pit lane, Coulthard and the other bloke just look scared about what he'll do or say next. Cameraman was trying his best to keep Jordan out of the picture afterwards yesterday as well when they were in the Brawn garage and he started "singing" and "dancing" with the mechanics.

Be jaypers, I'd say you're great craic at a party:rolleyes: I thought EJ was great yesterday. DC in particular looked so uncomfortable and stiff when the singing and dancing started around him.

thebman wrote: »

I think EJ's doing what he always did, acting like EJ and injecting personality into what would otherwise be a professional and uneventful broadcast.

I thought it was a laugh seeing him get in on the celebration. Maybe not very BBC like but very EJ like.

+1

tunguska wrote: »

Have to say, I cant remember there being a more unlikeable world champion than Jenson Button.
There was a Documentary on the Tv the other night about Seve Ballesteros and in it Peter Allis made the comment that there are a lot of sportsmen who are admired by people but there are very few who are loved. Seve was a great champion who was admired but also loved by people. Jenson Button will never have that said about him.

I used to think Button was a plonker but I think he's matured into a really nice, cool dude. And to be honest it does matter. I like to see a good guy fulfill his life's dream. There were a few mediocre performances mid-season but yesterday's performance, considewring all that was at stake, was really, really great.

It may be distasteful to the purists but he also has the personality, looks, playboy image and everyman persona to be a great ambassodor for the sport. Bernie and should be able to push him to do top rated chat shows like Rossy etc. and generate some interest in the sport.

robinph

pburns wrote: »

Be jaypers, I'd say you're great craic at a party:rolleyes: I thought EJ was great yesterday. DC in particular looked so uncomfortable and stiff when the singing and dancing started around him.

His job is to be reporting on "the party" though, not getting involved in it.

DC does still work for Red Bull and is their reserve driver, so he was the competition gate crashing the Brawn party.

Slutmonkey57b

Actually, I think DC needs to tone things down for next year. He has been getting very partisan about Red Bull over the course of the year, even more so as he's seen a chance at them getting a title slip away. It's understandable, but it seems to take over his commentary unnecessarily - at the end of the BBC highlights, he commented that "Red Bull clearly had the best car over the course of the year"... err... no they didn't, or they'd have won the constructors. Instead, their cars kept falling apart, blowing up, switching themselves off, or "being a lot slower than Jenson".

thebman

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Actually, I think DC needs to tone things down for next year. He has been getting very partisan about Red Bull over the course of the year, even more so as he's seen a chance at them getting a title slip away. It's understandable, but it seems to take over his commentary unnecessarily - at the end of the BBC highlights, he commented that "Red Bull clearly had the best car over the course of the year"... err... no they didn't, or they'd have won the constructors. Instead, their cars kept falling apart, blowing up, switching themselves off, or "being a lot slower than Jenson".

I think he meant they built the best car and that was him having a go at Renault engines.

No doubt if Vettel's engine problems had held off, we would have seen a more close title challenge from him.

robinph

Did he say over the whole year, or was he just refering to the end of the year?

Brawn had the faster car at the beginning, Red Bull had the faster car at the end, Brawn had the more reliable car.

Slutmonkey57b

thebman wrote: »

I think he meant they built the best car and that was him having a go at Renault engines.

No doubt if Vettel's engine problems had held off, we would have seen a more close title challenge from him.

If they built the best car, why did Vettel's wing mirror fall off, like he was driving in a Top Gear "best f1 cars you can buy for under a grand" challenge? And why did Mark Webber's car switch itself off after he went over a kerb?
The *second* car Red Bull built for silverstone was the fastest car, but a car that breaks down all the time isn't the best, or Kimi would have beaten Schumi twice.

By contrast, Brawn had 3 chassis to last the entire season, and had to saw six inches off them to get the Merc engine in. How many mechanical failures? 2? Both of them Engine/Gearbox related. Oh and one loose spring that we never heard about again.

Iron Hide

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

If they built the best car, why did Vettel's wing mirror fall off, like he was driving in a Top Gear "best f1 cars you can buy for under a grand" challenge? And why did Mark Webber's car switch itself off after he went over a kerb?
The *second* car Red Bull built for silverstone was the fastest car, but a car that breaks down all the time isn't the best, or Kimi would have beaten Schumi twice.

By contrast, Brawn had 3 chassis to last the entire season, and had to saw six inches off them to get the Merc engine in. How many mechanical failures? 2? Both of them Engine/Gearbox related. Oh and one loose spring that we never heard about again.

Yeah i heard about Brawn only having 3 cars for the whole season a month or so back, thought it was a wind-up tbh but more and more sources say its true, bloody consistent car then.

Speaking of the Benz powerplant, i reckon it is this years best engine by a country mile. Between Brawn, McLaren and Force India its got 245 points to its name and only one failure comes to mind (Rubens in Turkey) and even then i can't remember if twas the engine or the transmission.

G-Money

I have to be honest and say there are other drivers who I support more than Button, but having said that, he's a driver I like a lot who seems really down to earth and easy going.

He did sort of arrive in F1 being touted as the next big thing and for whatever reason it didn't happen until now.

People need to remember as well as while there's always drivers who will be a league apart from the rest, the common denominator is that in order to be World Champion, they need a half decent car. There's no exception to that really. While their car might not be the best, it still has to be pretty good.

Button has endured many win less years and with how things worked out with Honda, both him and Rubens showed faith and stuck with the team when I'm sure they were wondering if they should go elsewhere. Brawn started off the year with the best car and in many respects it still is. The Red Bull might be slightly faster though, but Brawn's reliability has been bullet proof.

I think Jenson deserves the title as he drove well when the car had it's advantage and even when he had a dip mid season, he still managed to pick up points. People seem to over look the fact that Rubens has the exact same car and opportunity to win, yet didn't. Also neither Vettel, Webber or Rubens mounted a sustained challenge and were able to take advantage of Jenson's mid season dip.

After years of running around in the back of the field both him and Rubens were given a race winning car. You can't begrudge them of that.

Button is a very likeable guy. I dare anyone not to have got a smile over their face as they listened to him on the radio after the Brazil race singing "We are the champions my friends"

Well done Jenson.