On college fees...

Boskowski

Want to put a question out there about what has happened recently to education fees. I'm referring to the Greens having wrestled a commitment out of FF not to introduce college fees.

I want to play devils advocate and ask whether this was the right thing to do. Why I'm doing this is because it strikes me that the Irish education system doesn't really answer the needs of the domestic market.

While I'm the first guy to say that politics should be a lot about advancing society and that community services should not be run like a profit organization I wonder is it economically speaking the right thing to produce a highly educated workforce in such large numbers for 'free' while we don't have domestic structures in place which allow us to reap the benefits from said highly skilled workforce.

We have a very expensive educational system all through primary, secondary and third level which is providing these educational services more or less for free. While this is a noble thing on an individual basis as we allow the individual to develop herself as much as she possibly can, we don't really have the labor market in Ireland to absorb all these engineers and academics and allow them to 'pay back' if you like by advancing our economy or simply paying taxes here.

So these people get their degrees for free and then they bugger off to Australia or the US or to the UK or the continent and advance these economies and pay their taxes there. So we are 'exporting' a significant share of our education and I'm saying 'exporting' in quotes because we're not really getting anything back.

Wouldn't it be the right thing then to introduce college fees and maybe award some tax credits on previously paid college fees or something like that?

irish_bob

of course the greens insistance on not bringing back fees is a bad idea , yet again , we have to settle for lesser standards in the name of equality , not everyone needs to go to college , we would be better off with a third less graduates but with those who do got to third level , recieving a better education

Idbatterim

i heard a good arguament put forward on the radio the other day that, the money would be better off going into smaller class sizes and better facilities and resources in primary and seconary school, give all the best possible chance to finnish seconday level education, with the best possible outcome. For those that then want to continue on to 3rd level courses, operate the australian system or a version of it!

graduate

There is some criticism of third level for not having enough people from poor areas. But the real problem here is that the schools in these areas do not equip people from these places for 3rd level, together with an anti education bias in these places. Either way more resources a lower levels will do more to improve the situation than a lack of fees at third level.

Nottoosure

I cannot believe what I am reading on this thread, what I am getting from this (correct me if I'm wrong) is, we need more manual workers so anyone who cannot afford college fees can do this (people with no money), going to college shouldn't be about money, it should be about
competence. I am over 40 years old and in my time only people with money or people on scholarship went to college, whether they were bright or not, I would have loved to have gone to college (I was bright), but there was a person with an illness in the house, so there was no money for college but enough to stop me getting a grant. I got my degree when I was 40 & I now help young people to go on to further education & work.

I'm tired, for 10 years now, of listening to & reading this right wing stuff (I'm rich, I deserve an education). This country became a petulant & selfish lot in the past 10 years. hopefully a recession (of which I have gone through already in the 80's) will make you all wake up & smell the sour milk..

P.S. IDBATTERIM & GRADUATE - Your spelling & Punctuation is diplorable, I teach young people with no college education who are 100% better.

Boskowski

Nottoosure wrote: »

I'm tired, for 10 years now, of listening to & reading this right wing stuff (I'm rich, I deserve an education).

No I agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a case that college education should be available to rich people only. I was trying to make a case for 3rd level education not being for free. You may argue that's the same thing, but really people with less money being forced out of 3rd level education is the last thing I'd like to see happening. They should have college fee loans available to them or something.
I was merely wondering what good is it spending a fortune on educating our kids all the way to a degree for free when they then run off and apply their skills in other countries?

graduate

P.S. IDBATTERIM & GRADUATE - Your spelling & Punctuation is diplorable, I teach young people with no college education who are 100% better.

You are the second person within this week to draw attention to small errors in my posts, errors resulting from typos on a dodgy keyboard. Since my posts are well above the usual standard on Boards, I can only conclude that this interest in my typing results from the difficulty of opposing my arguments. Other posters, e.g. the capital free posts of Irish Bob do not attract this comment.

If there was ample funds, I would agree that everyone should go to 3rd level at minimal cost. But there is not enough funds available, as was the case in the 1980s. There were thousands of people at third level in the 1980s who received grants. Now there may have been injustices at the margin, but these surely require better assessment of people's situation.

I don't think the country is willing to downsize the intake in 3rd level to concentrate the funds on the truly able.

Nottoosure

realcam wrote: »

No I agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a case that college education should be available to rich people only. I was trying to make a case for 3rd level education not being for free. You may argue that's the same thing, but really people with less money being forced out of 3rd level education is the last thing I'd like to see happening. They should have college fee loans available to them or something.
I was merely wondering what good is it spending a fortune on educating our kids all the way to a degree for free when they then run off and apply their skills in other countries?

Hi There,

Education should be free for everyone. Look, I travelled, I had an expertise with computers (late 80's), travel broadens the mind & I encourage my boys to travel, but most of us come home with a broadened mind, different ideas, a different outlook, work experience (the most important) & new ideas.

What is wrong with taking your degree elsewhere & gaining all of this? This country never in my life gave anyone all of this. So, get the degree, travel, gain confidence (which one does abroad), come home & do something with it. I did & it was brilliant, (my CV is something to read!!!), but here I am in Ireland, helping young people & I do encourage them to travel. Staying all your life in this little village would fry your brain!!

Nottoosure

graduate wrote: »

You are the second person within this week to draw attention to small errors in my posts, errors resulting from typos on a dodgy keyboard. Since my posts are well above the usual standard on Boards, I can only conclude that this interest in my typing results from the difficulty of opposing my arguments. Other posters, e.g. the capital free posts of Irish Bob do not attract this comment.

If there was ample funds, I would agree that everyone should go to 3rd level at minimal cost. But there is not enough funds available, as was the case in the 1980s. There were thousands of people at third level in the 1980s who received grants. Now there may have been injustices at the margin, but these surely require better assessment of people's situation.

I don't think the country is willing to downsize the intake in 3rd level to concentrate the funds on the truly able.

:rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

Nottoosure wrote: »

... P.S. IDBATTERIM & GRADUATE - Your spelling & Punctuation is diplorable, I teach young people with no college education who are 100% better.

Do you live in an irony-free zone?

dan_d

Spell deplorable with an e.;)

It's a good point. We do need to introduce some sort of system whereby people repay the education costs. Timing is bad though - it needs to be well-thought out, planned in advance, and people need to be well warned of it. And honestly now is not really the right time...we've got far bigger problems that need fixing more urgently.

As an engineer, I'm not sure I appreciate the OP's focusing on engineers as a profession that skips the country, once graduated...however I'll take it in good faith, and assume it was a personal case, someone the OP knows, and therefore the first example they thought of.

Amhran Nua

realcam wrote: »

we don't really have the labor market in Ireland to absorb all these engineers and academics and allow them to 'pay back' if you like by advancing our economy or simply paying taxes here.

80% of personal income taxes in Ireland are paid by higher earners, who for the most part have third level education. Where are they coming from if not Ireland? Another oft raised point is the high dropout rates in first year in universities - the cost per student in first year is miniscule because of class sizes that can reach many hundreds in size.

Free education is a good thing, although our education system needs a good working over to make it more relevant and effective.

Diarmuid

Nottoosure wrote: »

Education should be free for everyone.

You do realise that that's an impossibility unless you can get lecturers to teach for free (and provide the facilities etc) ? Someone has to pay for it, the question is who.

dlofnep

Education should be accessible by everyone, regardless of their financial circumstances. Anyone who thinks otherwise is content with living in an unequal society that supports the continued existence of inequality. 2 of the people in my class have dropped out this year alone from the raise in registration fees - on account of not being able to afford it. The impact is certainly visible.

Boskowski

Ok,
like I said I was playing devils advocate rather than expressing my opinion. I'm from a working class family myself who could not have afforded my college/university education had it not been (more or less) free.

The point I was raising was merely about people with 3rd level degrees who can't get a job in Ireland and are leaving the country. Is this a failure of the education system, is it that we provide 'too much' education? And should we recover some of the money from people who leave the country after obtaining their degree?

Amhran Nua

realcam wrote: »

Is this a failure of the education system, is it that we provide 'too much' education? And should we recover some of the money from people who leave the country after obtaining their degree?

I wouldn't say so, many people who leave the country send money home anyway should they find gainful employment. We need to provide a fertile innovative ground for entrepreneurship in Ireland with strong export led industries so that there is little incentive for young people, our greatest assets, to go abroad.

AlekSmart

I'm tired, for 10 years now, of listening to & reading this right wing stuff (I'm rich, I deserve an education). This country became a petulant & selfish lot in the past 10 years. hopefully a recession (of which I have gone through already in the 80's) will make you all wake up & smell the sour milk..

Nottosure,I`m very sure that your observations are true.
The past week has been one of my worst ever for direct hands on experience of this years intake of students into UCD,DCU and St Patricks.

If what I`ve witnessed on three nights last week is a guide then this country is finished....full stop.

I`m estimating a birth year of 1989/90/91,and wonder was there a secret exposure to gamma- radiation or some brain-rotting gas as the HUNDREDS of students,who ran riot all along the Stillorgan Road from Foxrock Church to the City Centre and similarly from Goatstown to the City and along the Drumcondra Road,appeared to have advanced Brain Rot as they slobbered down as much cheap rotgut at the roadside before their wild journey into town to drink yet more student-night special offer cheap-shots etc etc....

If we are to believe the Government line,these "Lads" (their own description) represent the very pinnacle of Irish Second Level education.

These people have secured x hundred points in the leaving and are now fully committed to acheiving even higher grades in their 3rd Level institutions.....Yes well...perhaps some are....

As far as I can tell from close observation we have a significant number of young students with some VERY serious social,medical and most worringly,physchological problems which they are only too happy to demonstrate to anybody who crosses their path.

There is no gender distinction here any longer.
Your drunken,loud,incapable student is just as likely to be female and perhaps even more so.

I feel that Mary Harney`s concerns about the cancer vaccination of young girls may be premature as most of them will have succumbed to diseases of the liver and various alcohol related malaises long before cervical cancer gets a hold.

It is as if a gigantic chunk of our young "knowledge based" society has decided to Go-Native and investigate Darwins theories to the Nth degree.

I very much doubt that any troupe of barbary apes,chimpanzees or gorillas could leave behind such a comprehensive trail of half- empty cans,empty or broken bottles,plastic bags,cardboard boxes and the ever present indestructible plastic rings as these itinerant groups of wandering ginnets manage to.

A generation of youthful self-aggrandized half-wits,each one more certain of their own standing and full sure that they will,in time,dominate their chosen field....but whilst they endure the necessary wait they will make themselves as obnoxious as possible to anybody unfortunate enough to cross their path.

A VERY strong indication to me that the introduction of Tuition Fees may not be the negative factor that many regard it as.
It comes down to valuing what we have and learning to be mindful of the greater good rather than squealing for somebody to give me more !!!!!

daithicarr

It has to be paid for in some manner,
either through fees or higher taxation. but some how people want neither and keep free education.

i wouldnt mind paying more taxation for education and health in general, but i understand the point that as its free, young people don't always appreciate the value of it and waste their time somewhat.
Perhaps students could pay half their fee and the state could facilitate, low interest, long term loans for this. With means testing for family's which cant afford it or have a large number of children etc.

invincibleirish

We live in a two tier society. Health, education and even transport are dictated by your income, Its unjust that joe public subsidises students from wealthy background in fee paying secondary schools and then into college. Let the wealthy pay the full costs for their kids education.

Amhran Nua

invincibleirish wrote: »

Let the wealthy pay the full costs for their kids education.

The wealthy already pay 80% of the taxes in the country.

Its fairly simple folks, high earners and third level graduates are to a great extent the same people. In terms of investment it would take around €12,000 to €30,000 to pay for a university student's full degree. They will have that paid off within five or six years, and the rest is pure exchequer benefit. Thats a 16% to 20% return on your investment; show me a similar return and I'll show you my life savings.

Ah but what about all those who drop out after first year? First year is a low cost year since the resources are spread out among hundreds of students per class - the actual real cost is probably in the high hundreds or low thousands per student. And those arts students or others who might not have immediately productive careers (which is not to say they are valueless)? Again the cost for "soft skills" is considerably less than for resource intensive engineering or science courses.

Factoring in emigration which we need to put a stop to post haste, you're still looking at minimum a 12% to 14% return on the money put in.

Basically free education is the best investment any government can make.

invincibleirish

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The wealthy already pay 80% of the taxes in the country.

So? we are still in a position where the wealthys kids are subsidised through secondary and third level by workers on low to average wages.

amacachi

Anyone who is in favour of fees has to be a loaded right-winger yes?:rolleyes:

I come from a low-income family and I think the introduction of fees similar to the British system was the way forward. "Not being able to afford" fees in that system is just a total cop-out.

Amhran Nua

invincibleirish wrote: »

So? we are still in a position where the wealthys kids are subsidised through secondary and third level by workers on low to average wages.

That would be the other way round. To be honest there seems to be a fair streak of general dislike for students in the thread fuelling the "fees for education" side of the camp. Having lived through a shower of the worst of them last year living next door, believe me I can empathise, but lets not undercut the entire future economy just to punish a few bad eggs whose mammies and daddies would cover their expenses anyway.

Diarmuid

invincibleirish wrote: »

So? we are still in a position where the wealthys kids are subsidised through secondary and third level by workers on low to average wages.

Are you joking or just not aware of the facts?

I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of the situation but it's an undeniable fact that the wealthy subsidise all education/welfare/health in the state. It's a direct consequence of a small few paying most of the tax in the country.

number10a

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nottosure,I`m very sure that your observations are true.
The past week has been one of my worst ever for direct hands on experience of this years intake of students into UCD,DCU and St Patricks.

If what I`ve witnessed on three nights last week is a guide then this country is finished....full stop.

I`m estimating a birth year of 1989/90/91,and wonder was there a secret exposure to gamma- radiation or some brain-rotting gas as the HUNDREDS of students,who ran riot all along the Stillorgan Road from Foxrock Church to the City Centre and similarly from Goatstown to the City and along the Drumcondra Road,appeared to have advanced Brain Rot as they slobbered down as much cheap rotgut at the roadside before their wild journey into town to drink yet more student-night special offer cheap-shots etc etc....

If we are to believe the Government line,these "Lads" (their own description) represent the very pinnacle of Irish Second Level education.

These people have secured x hundred points in the leaving and are now fully committed to acheiving even higher grades in their 3rd Level institutions.....Yes well...perhaps some are....

As far as I can tell from close observation we have a significant number of young students with some VERY serious social,medical and most worringly,physchological problems which they are only too happy to demonstrate to anybody who crosses their path.

There is no gender distinction here any longer.
Your drunken,loud,incapable student is just as likely to be female and perhaps even more so.

I feel that Mary Harney`s concerns about the cancer vaccination of young girls may be premature as most of them will have succumbed to diseases of the liver and various alcohol related malaises long before cervical cancer gets a hold.

It is as if a gigantic chunk of our young "knowledge based" society has decided to Go-Native and investigate Darwins theories to the Nth degree.

I very much doubt that any troupe of barbary apes,chimpanzees or gorillas could leave behind such a comprehensive trail of half- empty cans,empty or broken bottles,plastic bags,cardboard boxes and the ever present indestructible plastic rings as these itinerant groups of wandering ginnets manage to.

A generation of youthful self-aggrandized half-wits,each one more certain of their own standing and full sure that they will,in time,dominate their chosen field....but whilst they endure the necessary wait they will make themselves as obnoxious as possible to anybody unfortunate enough to cross their path.

A VERY strong indication to me that the introduction of Tuition Fees may not be the negative factor that many regard it as.
It comes down to valuing what we have and learning to be mindful of the greater good rather than squealing for somebody to give me more !!!!!

But sure of course that makes loads of sense. Stop all the louts from going to college. That way, we're guaranteed that their mammies will keep them at home until they're 27/28 and lovely and sensible and ready to be subservients to the rich upper classes who were able to afford an education. Why not ring Batt O'Keefe right now and tell him we've found a solution to the fees problem, the anti-social behaviour problem and Dublin City Council's clean up budget over-run all in one go!!!! It may even ensure that we keep the lower classes under control by not educating them - may result in less protests on the street if people aren't educated to know any better or think for themselves. Why not prevent anyone with an income under €70,000 from going to secondary school while we're at it. The lads and lassies around the Cabinet table are going to love this one. Go on AlekSmart, I'll let you take the credit.

edit: For the record, I do not condone the behaviour referred to by AlekSmart. It's inexcusible, but it's no basis for saying that college fees should be re-introduced.

Amhran Nua

amacachi wrote: »

I come from a low-income family and I think the introduction of fees similar to the British system was the way forward.

We might wait until they have their own system sorted out before we try copying them.

Or even better, lets not copy them at all.

invincibleirish

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That would be the other way round.

No it wouldn't. low paid workers subsidise kids in fee paying schools, and they subsidise the kids from these schools who go to college. Why is it that these people who are not in a position to pay for their kids to go to these fee paying schools or afford college fees and costs do so for the wealthy? a quick glance at the annual league tables shows that private schools send a disproportionate amount of their kids to colleges in comparison to the rest of the schools the state supports.

Diarmuid wrote: »

Are you joking or just not aware of the facts?

I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of the situation but it's an undeniable fact that the wealthy subsidise all education/welfare/health in the state. It's a direct consequence of a small few paying most of the tax in the country.

Whats your point exactly? because the wealthy subsidise education/welfare/health then its ok that the Irish system of subsidies to fee paying schools is acceptable?

Amhran Nua

invincibleirish wrote: »

No it wouldn't. low paid workers subsidise kids in fee paying schools, and they subsidise the kids from these schools who go to college. Why is it that these people who are not in a position to pay for their kids to go to these fee paying schools or afford college fees and costs do so for the wealthy?

Ah wait, fee paying schools are a very different kettle of fish to third level education, which is what I was referring to. So you would remove all state subsidies to fee paying schools?

invincibleirish wrote: »

a quick glance at the annual league tables shows that private schools send a disproportionate amount of their kids to colleges in comparison to the rest of the schools the state supports.

Have you got a link handy to this league table, I wouldn't mind a look.

Diarmuid

invincibleirish wrote: »

Whats your point exactly? because the wealthy subsidise education/welfare/health then its ok that the Irish system of subsidies to fee paying schools is acceptable?

My point is that your statement is wrong. And please don't twist it into something else. You made a very simple statement, just admit it is wrong.

irish_bob

invincibleirish wrote: »

We live in a two tier society. Health, education and even transport are dictated by your income, Its unjust that joe public subsidises students from wealthy background in fee paying secondary schools and then into college. Let the wealthy pay the full costs for their kids education.

cliched baseless nonsense

invincibleirish

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Ah wait, fee paying schools are a very different kettle of fish to third level education, which is what I was referring to. So you would remove all state subsidies to fee paying schools?

Yes, i would remove all state subsidies to fee paying schools, including religious ones. The link with 3rd level education is a key one, if a parent can afford to send their kids to a fee paying school (or a grind school, who are not subsidised by the state afaik) then it gives them an unfair advantage in access to University.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Have you got a link handy to this league table, I wouldn't mind a look.

I do not have a link to hand, my best suggestion would be use the the Irish broadsheets online archive to find such documents. Published around September time in years gone by i believe.