FG will cut 20 TDs and abolish Senate, says Kenny

Jim236

squonk wrote: »

I read a while back that the UK has about 650 MP's for a population of 50-60 Million, we have 166 for 4.5 million. You can do the maths yourselves! By that token we do seem overly represented.

In fairness though Wales, Scotland and NI also have assemblies, so you're not really comparing like-with-like. If anything the UK probably has more representation than Ireland when all institutions are taken into account, i.e. not just the House of Commons.

Eutow

New Zealand are a similar sized country to us with a population of just over 4 million. They manage better than us with 120 members in their parliament and have no upper house. I see no purpose for the Seanad to exist. We should be concentrating on making the Dail more democratic rather than worrying about the Seanad. Instead local councillors should be given more power, councillors should be representing local people, leaving the Dail to look after legislation/the country.

The amount of TD's should be reduced to around 100 - 120, though in order for this to happen, the Constitution has to be changed, therefore a referendum has to be held. Edna Kenny's idea to reduce TD's by 20 would require a referendum. I think the Constitution states that there must be one TD for every 20,000 - 30,000 people.

Permabear

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Eutow

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yeah, I was too lazy to do the maths. I had a feeling a cut of 20 TD's would still be within the parameters.

Diogenes

Eutow wrote: »

Yeah, I was too lazy to do the maths. I had a feeling a cut of 20 TD's would still be within the parameters.

I think we can agree that we can cut a sizeable quantity of TDs, the question is now, how many, and what about the Seanad.

Sand

Kennys plan is a good idea worthy of support - its only one facet of an overall solution to the mess that is Irish politics, but its a good start.

I note some have said the Senate is valuable in that its the only place where anything approach debate occurs, but then the solution is to move that debate to the decision making chamber and rid ourselves of the costly talking shop.

Taxipete29

There have been 14 reports on reform of the Seanad. The last one I believe was in 2004. Nothing from these reports has ever been implimented. I believe that real reform should be at least attempted before the blunt instrument of abolition is even considered.

From another perspective I believe FG will face real opposition from their likely partners in Government. I dont believe that Labour will support the elimination of the Seanad. I have a funny feeling Enda might have to do an eventual climb down on this one.

marcsignal

Sand wrote: »

Kennys plan is a good idea worthy of support - its only one facet of an overall solution to the mess that is Irish politics, but its a good start.

I note some have said the Senate is valuable in that its the only place where anything approach debate occurs, but then the solution is to move that debate to the decision making chamber and rid ourselves of the costly talking shop.

well said sand.

It's nothing more than a boys club for the 'pseudoilluminati'

good riddance

Sulmac

I fully support the plan, the Seanad is pointless and a waste of money.

My ideal Oireachtas would have one chamber of 100 TDs, elected by a national list system - a party gets 1% of the vote = 1 seat. Have a very strong committee system (like in the US) to make up for no second chamber.

This is a definite step in the right direction to get rid of parochial politics at a national level in Ireland.

jmayo

Taxipete29 wrote: »

There have been 14 reports on reform of the Seanad. The last one I believe was in 2004. Nothing from these reports has ever been implimented. I believe that real reform should be at least attempted before the blunt instrument of abolition is even considered.

From another perspective I believe FG will face real opposition from their likely partners in Government. I dont believe that Labour will support the elimination of the Seanad. I have a funny feeling Enda might have to do an eventual climb down on this one.

FG will face major opposition to everything from Labour.
Labour will try and oppose all cuts, want to raise taxes and won't want ot eliminate anything public.
Ideally if FG got overall majority and actualy got to cut loose we might see some real reform.
Then again Kenny might get a dagger in the back from Deasy and his buddies and that would be the end of that.

Gilmore comes across to majority of people as the great talker and thus best leader, but as of yet what has he actaully proposed and where will he stand when the very hard decisions will have to be made on cuts that will affect his union friends. ?

Deise Tom

donegalfella wrote: »

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What a bafoon that man is. Its not that long go he was saying the reverse. He's like the wind, changes his mind every so often, and hope that those that cannot see through him will vote for him at the next general election. What a mistake it would be to put Enda and Eamon in power after the next election. We would be better off with Podge and Rodge, or Zig and Zag that to have Enda and Eamon in power.

Come to think about it. we might not. They all have one think in common. They are all Puppets. And we all know what you have to do get a puppet to talk.

LK_Dave

Abolish, remember Senator Dan Boyles election to the Senate! Argument proved.

If we are to reform anything then we should look at the office of President and it’s Council of State.

jonsnow

Taxipete29 wrote: »

There have been 14 reports on reform of the Seanad. The last one I believe was in 2004. Nothing from these reports has ever been implimented. .

This just sums it up for me why the Seanad should be abolished.14 reports.14.Imagine the amount of money and effort and time wasted-and what was the end result!!Nothing happened.Its a useless expensive retirement home/launch pad for rejected politicians.The good senators like norris,shane ross and quinn are famous for what they do outside of the seanad not what they do in it.Fair play to Kenny some real reform at last.This one will pass with flying colours in a referendum.

FlutterinBantam

High time this outdated refuge for failed Dail candidates and party hacks to be disbanded.

Fair enough there were some high profile and effective senators ,but with no mandate from the voting populace, however the cost was enormous and unsustainable so let's get it on.

Chop that system forthwith.

marcsignal

Discussion on that here already guys

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055713318

for the record, I couldn't agree more

sceptre

Single post added to existing thread / threads merged.

Overheal

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

High time this outdated refuge for failed Dail candidates and party hacks to be disbanded.

Fair enough there were some high profile and effective senators ,but with no mandate from the voting populace, however the cost was enormous and unsustainable so let's get it on.

Chop that system forthwith.

Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer than a photo of Emperor Palpatine, but while I think its great to see political activism, I dont think blithely disassembling a major kernel of your political system is really the way to go.

Now maybe I just slept through CSPE but is it anything like the US Senate or House of Reps? I'd be deeply concerned if one of those was suddenly just Not There anymore. they play integral roles.

Sand

Now maybe I just slept through CSPE but is it anything like the US Senate or House of Reps? I'd be deeply concerned if one of those was suddenly just Not There anymore. they play integral roles.

Its nothing like either. Essentially the original idea was that it would be nice if some urbane, sophisticated, Protestant types could get a bit of an opportunity to at least offer an opinion on laws made by the Dail where statesmen of the calibre that earn names like "The Bull" live.

Whilst the American system deliberately looked to create conflicts to balance power in the system, DeValera wanted a heavily centralised state. All the power is in the Dail, the Seanad has no power whatsoever - its just to give some sort of representation to people with a degree or some civic duty/activity plus more lately for failed TDs rejected by the people.

Anything the Seanad offers should be part of the Dail, not dumped in a powerless sideline.

@Sulmac

My ideal Oireachtas would have one chamber of 100 TDs, elected by a national list system - a party gets 1% of the vote = 1 seat. Have a very strong committee system (like in the US) to make up for no second chamber.

Id agree with something along those lines, but go even further in some aspects

- Do we even need 100 TDs? Couldnt we get by with less if local government was relaunched and responsibilities moved out of the Dail to those bodies.
- National list system I totally agree with: We have been badly served by the personalised parish pump politics of Ireland: Liam Lawlor, re-elected. Bev Cooper Flynn: Re-elected, Michael Lowry: Re-elected, John O Donughue: Will be re-elected. He is the one FF TD who can be 100% certain he will be re-elected. Safest seat in Ireland.
- Ministers dont need to be elected imo: They should simply be experts in their field with the confidence of the government to form and guide policy. This isnt all that revolutionary: All the quangos are ministers recognising they know next to nothing about their briefs and sub contracting them out to an expert instead. Why not just cut out the middle man and appoint an expert in the first place?
- Under the above, any sitting TD who is appointed minister should surrender his seat.
- Local government needs a real overhaul: abandon the county council model: A properly funded, regional local government with appropriate competencies will give statesmen of the likes of "The Bull" something to do whilst others deal with national issues in the Dail.

nesf

Long Onion wrote: »

In relation to your questioning why employers may want a say on anything other than employment law and taxation, I would point to the submissions from IBEC, urging the government to reform the teaching of maths to ensure students are better placed for the future.

You're not getting my point, in this instance IBEC is still only dealing within its narrow field of interest. There is nothing wrong with this, such groups exist to represent these fields of interest, but this doesn't mean that they would be useful as national arbiters on general policy.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Long Onion

nesf wrote: »

You're not getting my point, in this instance IBEC is still only dealing within its narrow field of interest. There is nothing wrong with this, such groups exist to represent these fields of interest, but this doesn't mean that they would be useful as national arbiters on general policy.

The current 43 seanad mambers elected from the 900 ex & current politico's are nominated from such panels already, this is provided for in the constitution. The problem is that political motives of the voters means that they will only elect those with an ethos which fits with that of the major parties - this means that you never get the partisan views that were envisaged.

Keep the panels and find a more reflective way of appointing the members.

Taxipete29

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yeah your spot on. They would have to redraw some constituency boundaries to insure that the correct ratio is maintained. These cannot take effect during the lifetime of the Dail which inacts it.

Another point is that if during that time the population were to grow to just short of 5million then it would require a constitutional ammendment to reduce the numbers of TDs.

murphaph

I consider political change to be at the heart of what Ireland needs to really sort itself out. If Kenny and FG are seriously looking at NZ and intend to mirror it I will vote for them. I don't agree with everything they say and they have been guilty of overdoing the expenses too, and Kenny is so hard to take seriously, but I will still vote for this as I feel so strongly about it. Top down reform of politics in Ireland is long overdue-Leinster house is as good a place to start as any, followed by regional local governments, the county councils are too small and too much is replicated, costing a lot of money in the process.

I like the committees replacing tribunals too-much more like the UK in that regard.

Permabear

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Taxipete29

donegalfella wrote: »

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Agreed. This would be under the provision that the powers of local government were increased. Let the councillors fight to see who can fix the most potholes and let TDs actually do what they are paid to do which is legislate. Remove the burden of their constituency work and that would also make it easier to reduce their pay. Less work= Less money

Deise Tom

donegalfella wrote: »

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If Fine Gael and Labour with Enda Kenny and Eamonn Gilmore get into power after the next General Election, i perdict here that you will not have to wait till 2017 or five years after whenever the election takes place, because they will have the county fcked up more than it is now in 15 months or less.

Deise Tom

Enda Kenny or any other polition can call all they want for the Senate etc to be banned, but it will not happen, as the politions, senators or councillors will not vote for it.

The only way it will happen is if it is put to the people of Ireland. Which polition is going to vote for it because they could be the one that will loose out come election next time round.

On upthedeise.com when McCarthy recommended that town and city councils be merged with county councils, i said it was a good idea. However some people who i suspect may be a councillor on such a committee was toltally against it and gave a sermon on how much good they do.

If the person as i suspect is a member of the Fine Gael Party, i wonder how they greated Enda Kenny's statement.

Taxipete29

Deise Tom wrote: »

If Fine Gael and Labour with Enda Kenny and Eamonn Gilmore get into power after the next General Election, i perdict here that you will not have to wait till 2017 or five years after whenever the election takes place, because they will have the county fcked up more than it is now in 15 months or less.

Spoken like a true FF man.

Permabear

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