Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

mirwillbeback

Villa fan here, not looking at opening a Man U / Liverpool debate. But - whats your opinions on Liverpool's current situation? I personally believe 1) they ARE a 2 man team 2) they have overperformed the past 2 seasons 3 ) Rafa is too stubborn and is a key reason they are where they are now and 4) they will be 6th this year. So far already Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Sunderland have beat them, and the challengers to the big 4 already have points and arguably the more difficult games behind them. What dya reckon?

Royale with Cheese

Yeah, I reckon after an entire 9 games of the Premier League season it's safe to say they'll probably be relegated.

Diabhal Beag

They are really ballooned this year :pac: Bad start but they always make a bad start. They could still do it with a lot of luck

Jesus Wept

I think you are talking out of the wrong orifice.

CHD

Depends on how many balloons line up against them this year

OPENROAD

If City are to break into the top four, I always felt it could be at Liverpools expense especially with the squad they have but after only nine games still too early, as for the title, can't see Liverpool doing it.

kryogen

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Yeah, I reckon after an entire 9 games of the Premier League season it's safe to say they'll probably be relegated.

not the most helpful reply in fairness, why bother replying at all if you have such contempt for the question, comments like this is only flame the situation. whats the point like?

To answer the OP, Liverpool were always going to be longshots for the premier league this season due to a lack of strength in depth, same as every season! but they are not out of the league yet this year, a win for them next week and everyone will be tipping them for the title again

As usual the knee jerk reactions of people come out after a match, but look at it objectively, are they too far behind in the title race to win the league at this point?

of course not, but they need to learn how to win games, and actually play well, without Gerrard.....They have not performed well again today and while teams like united and chelsea can often peform poorly and get the result, Liverpool just dont it consistently

they were doing it last year and thats what got them close. they need to find a way to do it again

Excuses only go so far in football and it will ultimately be the owners of liverpool who decide when it is the end for rafa, or maybe he himself will walk away, but things would have to get pretty bad on the pitch for that to happen imo

Bandit12

Yes yes they are done.:rolleyes:

Bobalicious93

They're just deflated at the moment. They'll bounce back.

Your theory is a load of hot air tbh.

curry-muff

Love the way pool fans are just ignoring the fact that they are in trouble, it shows they are good fans that will stick by their team but deep down they have to know that they actually are in trouble and are going to have to strengthen some way in janurary and hope for a bit of luck with gerrard and torres fitness, and also going to need aquilani to gel immediately with the liverpool team, because a team with lucas starting will never win the premiership

kinaldo

All I know is that red balloons are better than luft balons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQYQTFudrqc

mike65

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Villa fan here, not looking at opening a Man U / Liverpool debate. But - whats your opinions on Liverpool's current situation? I personally believe 1) they ARE a 2 man team 2) they have overperformed the past 2 seasons 3 ) Rafa is too stubborn and is a key reason they are where they are now and 4) they will be 6th this year. So far already Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Sunderland have beat them, and the challengers to the big 4 already have points and arguably the more difficult games behind them. What dya reckon?

No team is a two man team (or a one man team before Torres joined!), last year Liverpool beat top sides with out Torres and or Gerrard.

Overperforming? They won the points they won with the players availible. So that was the level of performance. Logic really.

Rafa is stubborn only a fool would say otherwise. Like most charactaristics this can be both good and bad. Today it was bad as he wouldn't get Masch on at half time when it was clear he was needed. Other times his persistance has worked in his favour - such as playing Kuyt wide right. For a while it seemed like madness (I was a critic) but he and Kuyt made it work. (and before anyone spouts crap about Kuyt not scoring or getting assists or defending from out wide - check the stats).

I dunno where they will finish this year (though I will suggest not top) as all the "Big 4" teams will find 09/10 much tougher than recent seasons.

ps kryogen, Royale with Cheese was being sarcastic I suspect.

smoochie06

Not done just yet. A win over utd next week and we are capable of going on a good run. Im placing a lot on next weeks game though

DU.LLAHAN

mirwillbeback wrote: »

whats your opinions on Liverpool's current situation? I personally believe 1) they ARE a 2 man team

I dont see the point in sayin they are a two man team when the so called big two where both playin when spurs and villa bet them. Last year they didnt play all the games together and nearly won the league, Rafa is abit of a tool on match of the day tonight he said there was a problem with the team and they have to sort it out. He wont take any responsabilty for his mistakes, he played 3 at the back today WHY ?

Handsome Bob

The soccer forum, forever fostering the sensationalist and populist thinking of the gutter media.

mayordenis

Everyone watch - Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story so I can say


You're washed up, you're never gonna make it.

mayordenis

LZ5by5 wrote: »

The soccer forum, forever fostering the sensationalist and populist thinking of the gutter media.

It's a petri dish of tabloid journalism.

kryogen

LZ5by5 wrote: »

The soccer forum, forever fostering the sensationalist and populist thinking of the gutter media.

eh....what? chap has stated his own opinion in the OP no? not anything from the media

OPENROAD

kryogen wrote: »

eh....what? chap has stated his own opinion in the OP no? not anything from the media

+1

Handsome Bob

kryogen wrote: »

eh....what? chap has stated his own opinion in the OP no? not anything from the media

It's nothing that I haven't seen Ronnie Whelan, Paul Merson or Tony Cascarino say before, and their opinions have been easily picked a part. But it's ignored because Liverpool fans are the ones who pick a part their arguments and their biased right?

The Sparrow

Liverpool's problem is that if you take out Torres, Gerrard and Reina they are not much better than Sunderland and the like.

I doubt many people will believe this but even at the start of the season when ppl were saying that Arsenal would drop out of the top four for City, I was arguing that Liverpool would more likely make way if City could put it together.

Most Liverpool players wouldn't be regulars in a top four team. So no I can't see them being near the title this year. They went on a great run last year but that was with Alonso pulling the strings and even then it was masking the dependencies that they have on a small amount of players.

Handsome Bob

The Sparrow wrote: »

Liverpool's problem is that if you take out Torres, Gerrard and Reina they are not much better than Sunderland and the like.

Liverpool defeated a full strength Man U side at Anfield last year without Gerrard or Torres in their starting line up.

The Sparrow

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Liverpool defeated a full strength Man U side at Anfield last year without Gerrard or Torres in their starting line up.

Burnlley beat Man Utd this year. Doesn't mean they are gonna win the title!

Handsome Bob

The Sparrow wrote: »

Burnlley beat Man Utd this year. Doesn't mean they are gonna win the title!

Exactly, **** happens, regardless of how good a team is. Liverpool were written off last season after they lost against Boro yet two games later the opinion of the tabloid media changed dramatically. I suggest you cool your jets mate.

Kirnsy

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Liverpool defeated a full strength Man U side at Anfield last year without Gerrard or Torres in their starting line up.

according to liverpool fans, a balloon beat liverpool today (albeit without torres and gerrard) .... how high do you think it'll rise up the table?

OPENROAD

The Sparrow wrote: »

Liverpool's problem is that if you take out Torres, Gerrard and Reina they are not much better than Sunderland and the like.

I doubt many people will believe this but even at the start of the season when ppl were saying that Arsenal would drop out of the top four for City, I was arguing that Liverpool would more likely make way if City could put it together.
Most Liverpool players wouldn't be regulars in a top four team. So no I can't see them being near the title this year. They went on a great run last year but that was with Alonso pulling the strings and even then it was masking the dependencies that they have on a small amount of players.

+1

The Sparrow

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Exactly, **** happens, regardless of how good a team is. Liverpool were written off last season after they lost against Boro yet two games later the opinion of the tabloid media changed dramatically. I suggest you cool your jets mate.

I couldn't care less what the tabloid media write. I have my own opinion and it is that Liverpool are too reliant on three or four players and if a couple of them get injured they are in trouble. Even moreso this year without Alonso. And I have been consistent with that opinion since before the season.

You know we don't all need the media to form an opinion.;)

anplaya

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Exactly, **** happens, regardless of how good a team is. Liverpool were written off last season after they lost against Boro yet two games later the opinion of the tabloid media changed dramatically. I suggest you cool your jets mate.

mate lol.load of bollix. tis was a bad result regardless,4 games lost so far this season,hardly title challengers .

The Sparrow

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Exactly, **** happens, regardless of how good a team is. Liverpool were written off last season after they lost against Boro yet two games later the opinion of the tabloid media changed dramatically. I suggest you cool your jets mate.

And no matter how much Liverpool fans don't like it, the ppl who wrote Liverpool off last year were right. After all Liverpool didn't win anything.

Handsome Bob

The Sparrow wrote: »

I couldn't care less what the tabloid media write. I have my own opinion and it is that Liverpool are too reliant on three or four players and if a couple of them get injured they are in trouble. Even moreso this year without Alonso. And I have been consistent with that opinion since before the season.

You know we don't all need the media to form an opinion.;)

How do you reckon Man U would handle losing Rooney, Berbatov, Vidic, and Giggs?

How do you reckon Arsenal would handle losing Arshavin, Frabregas, Van Persie and Vermaelan?

How do you reckon Chelsea would handles losing Lampard, Terry, Drogba and Essien?

How do you reckon Man City would handle losing Adebayor, Bellamy, Ireland, and Robinho?

How do you reckon Spurs would handle losing Keane, Defoe, Lennon, and Modric?

How do you reckon Villa would handle losing Agbonlahor, Young, Carew and Petrov?

I could go on. Every team has their core group of 3/4 players that make them tick, but it's been a long standing rule in the media that this rule doesn't apply to Liverpool.

SlickRic

The Sparrow wrote: »

And no matter how much Liverpool fans don't like it, the ppl who wrote Liverpool off last year were right. After all Liverpool didn't win anything.

i'm a liverpool fan, and much of what you said was decent, and we are struggling big time.

but the above is utter garbage mate.

so whoever comes second in the league should have technically been written off at the start of the season, no matter how hard they pushed?

nice one.

Firetrap

It's been a bad start to the season for Liverpool and to be honest I can't see things getting much better. They're missing Alonso, the defence is looking shaky and when Torres or Gerrard aren't playing, it's hard to see who's an adequate replacement. The freak beachball goal today sums up their season so far really :rolleyes: Personally I think they'll struggle to finish in the top four this year.

The Sparrow

SlickRic wrote: »

i'm a liverpool fan, and much of what you said was decent, and we are struggling big time.

but the above is utter garbage mate.

so whoever comes second in the league should have technically been written off at the start of the season, no matter how hard they pushed?

nice one.

Well if ppl write a team off as title challengers and that team fails to win the title surely those ppl are correct?

I said earlier in the thread Liverpool went on a fantastic run last year. But the fact remains that they came up short.

SlickRic

it's brilliant, we haven't had to put off with the 'writing Liverpool off' stuff for close on a year now.

you'd think people would at least wait until after the United game before completely consigning us to the wayside.

if we lose that, i'll be tempted to join you. but not before then.

since we'll definitely have Stevie and Nando back, and Aquilani will be in the team come November.

Zatman

I dont buy this Liverpool are a 2 man team with Torres and Gerrard in the team they have lost to Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Fiorentina already.
Also Carragher has never been good enough for a top club and is getting exposed a lot these days and is costing Liverpool big time.

I dont think anybody including Rafa realised they would miss Alonso so badly

SlickRic

The Sparrow wrote: »

Well if ppl write a team off as title challengers and that team fails to win the title surely those ppl are correct?

are you serious?

the people who wrote them off are not correct because that team challenged and came second. 'writing off' means 'no chance'. and that is not true for a team who comes second in a competition.

The Sparrow

SlickRic wrote: »

are you serious?

the people who wrote them off are not correct because that team challenged and came second. 'writing off' means 'no chance'. and that is not true for a team who comes second in a competition.

I'm talking about writing them off as title challengers. I can't speak for others who wrote Liverpool off full stop. I think they are the most likely candidate to drop out of the top four but I certainly wouldn't write them off as a top four team.

SlickRic

Zatman wrote: »

I dont think anybody including Rafa realised they would miss Alonso so badly

we haven't missed him as much as people would like to believe.

more so, we've missed a fit and hungry Masch far more.

i'm not belittling Alonso's influence on our team in previous years, but his absence is not a main reason for our struggles thus far this.

The Sparrow

SlickRic wrote: »

more so, we've missed a fit and hungry Masch far more.

Do you not think that Alonso allowed Mascherano to concentrate on what he does best? And this year he has more responsibility and is therefore struggling without a player of Alonso's quality beside him?

That's my theory anyway!

parker kent

I hear what people are saying about it being too soon, but 7 points is a lot to be giving up this early. It will be hard to make up over the rest of the season. It is not as if they are sitting in second place with just United ahead. They have Arsenal and Chelsea to contend with for the title and then City, Spurs etc are not going to just disappear either.For me, that is just too many teams in the way for them to win the league. Will still finish in the top 4 I think but if this spell goes on for much longer, it could be a tough enough fight.

The Sparrow

parker kent wrote: »

I hear what people are saying about it being too soon, but 7 points is a lot to be giving up this early. It will be hard to make up over the rest of the season. It is not as if they are sitting in second place with just United ahead. They have Arsenal and Chelsea to contend with for the title and then City, Spurs etc are not going to just disappear either.For me, that is just too many teams in the way for them to win the league. Will still finish in the top 4 I think but if this spell goes on for much longer, it could be a tough enough fight.

Fair point. Although the flipside of that is more teams will be taking points off each other so therefore losing that many points probably won't be as catastrophic as it would have been in previous years.

Jackobyte

Simple answer. Rafa-Yes. Liverpool-No.

mirwillbeback

Lads, give me respect on making up my own mind, I don't need to listen to the pundits to decide. Facts are, Liverpool, one of the biggest teams in England, nay the world, have lost 4 of their first nine games. They still have Man U, Arsenal, Villa and Man City away, and the other top 3 at home.
I'm all for supporting your club, but jesus, most Liverpool fans cannot take any criticism at all. All I said, and I stand by it 100% is that for a so called regular side of the top 4, the top 1/5 of the richest league in the world, that the team looks woefully imbalanced towards two players.
I mean, I would argue that Villa with Agbonlahor, Carew, Heskey have a stronger forward line than Torres, Ngog and Voronin - that's just an example - Torres obviously an outstanding striker, but surely a big team would need to take account of what happens if he is not there, which is 99% likely to happen at some stage of the season.
I'm all for being loyal, but does there not come a time when you have to face facts and see is 1) the manager or 2) the players just not good enough to represent your team?

chopperbyrne

Personally, I think if they lose any more games that aren't against a top side, Rafa will be sacked and deservedly so.

Liverpools problem over the last who knows how many seasons has been dropping points against weaker sides and they're still doing it.

They need someone new in charge to change how they play.

kryogen

losing 4 out of the first 9 is not good form and the team is rightly going to be shot at, you cant expect not to be! 8th in the table is hardly where the fans demand their team be right now is it?

the goalkeeper is the same, very reliable

the defence is in decline imo and the addition of Johnson, although benefitting the attacking play, has unbalanced the team, and made the defence more vulnerable by exposing the rear guard more often. also, carragher although he has been a fantastic servant to the club, has had his best years behind him and is not the force he once was

the midfield is also in decline as there is very little creativity there atm, yes Gerrard creates but the loss of Alonso hasnt been remedied yet, maybe Aquilani will add to it, maybe he wont. nobody knows just yet. others have not stepped up so far

the attack is great while Torres is fit but without him it struggles as would be expected... Probably should have addressed that problem properly oer the last 2 years but hasnt

this is not a typical "try to tear liverpool down" post. i am giving my honest evaluation of the club

please take it in that way and if you disagree just say so in a civil way

SlickRic

The Sparrow wrote: »

Do you not think that Alonso allowed Mascherano to concentrate on what he does best? And this year he has more responsibility and is therefore struggling without a player of Alonso's quality beside him?

That's my theory anyway!

i think it takes a while to get used to a partner on a consistent basis. Masch and Alonso were our two for quite a while. i'm sure they forged an understanding.

at the start of this season, we've barely had Masch and Lucas play together for 2 games straight. when they do, they've generally been fine.

Lucas is a different player to Xabi. he's a pass & move kind of player, whereas Alonso is an 'incisive through ball' kind of player. he found Gerrard in a split second instantly.

i believe the team is getting used to playing without Alonso, and Lucas has to fill a gap in the system that he isn't 100% suited to.

plus he's not yet as good as Alonso.

there are good signs though. for instance, our Chelsea defeat was not the midfield's fault; in fact we were on top for decent portions of that game, and created many more chances than last year.

so lack of xabi is part of the problem, but it's not that simplistic. our defence has been pretty woeful in comparison to previous seasons too, plus we've genuinely had very little luck so far this season.

anplaya

SlickRic wrote: »

are you serious?

the people who wrote them off are not correct because that team challenged and came second. 'writing off' means 'no chance'. and that is not true for a team who comes second in a competition.

ye but thats last year.this is a totally different season.what position did newcastle finish in the year after they came 2nd?

raven136

Come seasons end we will probably have the top scorer in the league in Torres and the most effective wide player in Kuyt,arguably the best attacking midfielder and the usual defence once Carra finds form and Agger full fitness.
Its an awful long way to go and we are about 2 points less well off the United at the same time last year.

We are losing games but not drawing and hence we still are in the hunt.Still in around the top scorers and still have our new player to come in(Not saying the lad changes everything or wishing to add pressure).

A win on tuesday and against United and the perception again changes.Come december if we are still playing the same way then i will say we are done,as of now we are imo still in it.

Simply put any team that fields Gerrard and Torres backed up by any amount of good to very good(Kuyt,Yossi,Riena,Johnson,Agger,Masch)cant be ruled out after 9 games.
Also playing Villa,Chelsea,Spurs,United,Sunderland all within the first ten games means that this could distorte the picture.All those teams will finish top 8 and there will be a point in the season where Pool will play Hull,Birmingham,Everton,Stoke,Wolves in a short period and on the evidence so far,hammer them.

kryogen

raven136 wrote: »

We are losing games but not drawing and hence we still are in the hunt.

how did this sound good in your head?

actually this expresses it better

d22ontour

SlickRic wrote: »

Lucas is a different player to Xabi.
plus he's not yet as good as Alonso.

Seriously, Alonso is a world class player, you think Lucas can potentially be as good as him ? :eek:

SlickRic wrote: »

there are good signs though. for instance, our Chelsea defeat was not the midfield's fault; in fact we were on top for decent portions of that game.

True,that game could have went either way but one good performance resulting in a loss doesn't cover over the underlying problem you are facing this season.

SlickRic wrote: »

so lack of xabi is part of the problem, but it's not that simplistic. our defence has been pretty woeful in comparison to previous seasons too, plus we've genuinely had very little luck so far this season.

Alonso is gone, no point dwelling on the subject, he was a good servant to yis but is in the past now.United have lost Ronaldo but you won't see much reference to him from fans because you have to move forward regardless.

The defending is were the problem lies imo and it's a worrying sign considering how strong Pool have been in recent times at it.

Mr Alan

this must be the fifth or sixth similar thread about liverpool in the last couple of seasons.

simple answer is: no.

Liverpool as a club, are ****ing broke. This is the reason we are struggling, i'd imagine at a guess that we've spent less than 95% of the teams in the league this year, far less than the teams around us, as well as the teams that are hoping to break into the top 4 in the main. Yet people think its title or bust for Liverpool. Foolish. We have one of the best managers in Europe & some of the top players in the world, so personally, i think, despite the poor form at the minute, we'll pull it together & push on this season.

Will we win the league? probably not.
Will we finish in the top 4? almost certainly.

Is Rafa finished, my answer to this would be simple, if there is any top manager in the world who'd be happy to come in, work with our incompetent owners & have no money to spend, please name them.....

or again, since some people seem to think our squad is ****e & we have to have torres & gerrard to be anyway decent(who had about 14 games together last season & Torres missed long chunks), if there is anyone who with that squad, could set points totals records for 2nd place team and challenge for a leage title, again name the manager...

personally, i still think Rafa is doing a great job with the scant resources available to him, and losing to Villa(who we're led to believe are top 4 contenders), Chelsea (strongest team in the league), Sunderland (form team in the league who drew with Utd last week & were shocking unlucky no win) & Spurs away (again top 4 contenders), is not gonna make me think any different.

Personally i think all the top 4 are gonna struggle at times this season because the league has become far more competitive, this is already evidenced by Utd struggling at times & losing to Burnley & Chelsea losing to Wigan & Villa.

80 points will be there or there abouts for the league title this year imo, and that's of 114 that are available, would work out at losing 10 games & drawing 2, or losing 7 games & drawing 5 or something.

is it possible that Liverpool will lose another 3 games this season & draw 3 & still be in with a shout for the title? yes. imo, it is.

but, things need to get better fast.