Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

K-9

spockety wrote: »

Centre we have Agger/Skrtl/Carra as 1st/2nd choice quality, we have also brought in Krygiakos but I haven't seen enough to judge whether or not he is good enough to be in the 22 man first team squad.


So we are missing a very good striker happy to sit on the bench, a very good central midfielder, a very good centre back, and a very good right winger. All who will be happy to play 2nd fiddle.

That's my opinion.

So I make it that through injury, we played tonight with only 6 players who I would say are of good enough quality to be automatic 1st team starters. Put Johnson, Gerrard, Torres, Aquilani (presumably), and Aurelio in there to start and I think you have a different complexion on a match like tonight.

Krygiakos got fecking injured. Out to Xmas last I heard. Typical.

I think most would accept how difficult it is to get a good striker, central midfielder, centre back and right winger, ALL prepared to sit on the bench on our budget.

THIS sums up our situation. We don't have the money to compete on a Long Term basis for the title.

People are forgetting 4 Quality players are out.

spockety

Iago wrote: »

that's a great post spockety

Thanks! The one thing I would say though is that by "above average" I am presuming a cost of at least 10m per player. So that's a 40m+ hole. Liverpool don't currently have the wonga to plug a 40m hole without a very generous investor/owner.

Can Liverpool cope without Gerrard and Torres? Yes, we can, we did last season.

Can we cope without Gerrard and Torres at the same time as losing quality like Johnson, Aurelio (I can only presume he is still not 10000% or maybe Rafa sees Insua as a starter ahead of him), Riera (would have been good to have on the bench tonight ), and a top quality central midfielder? It would appear not.

The Sparrow

mayordenis wrote: »

If in 2 weeks time we can have this team start...
then I think all 30 pages of this can be deleted.

Unless of course Rafa is gone by then. Maybe that will be Kenny Daglish's first team as Liverpool manager???

Mental Mickey

Jeez, Spockety, you're good.

K-9

mayordenis wrote: »

If in 2 weeks time we can have this team start

Reina

Johnson
Agger
Skrtel/Carra
Aurelio

Kuyt
Aquilani
Masherano
Benayoun

Gerrard
Torres

then I think all 30 pages of this can be deleted.

Yes and Carra/Skyrtel, Insua, Lucas, Babel and Kelly as back up.

Mental Mickey

The Sparrow wrote: »

Unless of course Rafa is gone by then. Maybe that will be Kenny Daglish's first team as Liverpool manager???

Personally, I think it would be a step backwards to employ Kenny. Maybe someone like Rijkaard?

builttospill

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Personally, I think it would be a step backwards to employ Kenny. Maybe someone like Rijkaard?

What about Phil Babb?

mayordenis

mayordenis wrote: »

If in 2 weeks time we can have this team start

Reina

Johnson
Agger
Skrtel/Carra
Aurelio

Kuyt
Aquilani
Masherano
Benayoun

Gerrard
Torres

then I think all 30 pages of this can be deleted.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I'd swap Benny for Gerrard in midfield and put Babel up front. Will Aquilani be fit in time(presuming he doesn't get injured in his reserves appearance)?

No reason to believe he'll get injured.

I would love to agree, right now I wouldn't though I think Torres and Gerrard together is what we need.

The Muppet wrote: »

It's a squad game.

You are completely correct, see below (although it's not the exact bench I'd have.

K-9 wrote: »

Yes and Agger, Insua, Lucas, Babel and Kelly as back up.

The Sparrow wrote: »

Unless of course Rafa is gone by then. Maybe that will be Kenny Daglish's first team as Liverpool manager???

Really don't believe that will happen, could be wrong of course, but don't see it right now.

spockety

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Jeez, Spockety, you're good.

Nobody takes any of this into account though, they just see "4 losses, RAFA OUT!".

I understand and feel the pain, but I don't think that 10 minutes after the final whistle blows on the 4th consecutive defeat is necessarily the right time to make a call on the future of our manager.

We have a pretty damn excellent 1st team. For the most part, we have above average backup. We are missing 4 or 5 above average squad players. This shouldn't be a problem usually, but when you reach a point where you are missing 5 first team players through injury, it means you are more than likely putting at least some below average (in some cases useless) players into the first team. Coming up against teams in form and full of confidence, you are going to find yourself on the receiving end of bad results.

I absolutely cannot wait to see what happens if Liverpool get a long run of games with a full strength first 11 available. I hope we cut a load of teams to shreds.

Mental Mickey

spockety wrote: »

Nobody takes any of this into account though, they just see "4 losses, RAFA OUT!".

I understand and feel the pain, but I don't think that 10 minutes after the final whistle blows on the 4th consecutive defeat is necessarily the right time to make a call on the future of our manager.

We have a pretty damn excellent 1st team. For the most part, we have above average backup. We are missing 4 or 5 above average squad players. This shouldn't be a problem usually, but when you reach a point where you are missing 5 first team players through injury, it means you are more than likely putting at least some below average (in some cases useless) players into the first team. Coming up against teams in form and full of confidence, you are going to find yourself on the receiving end of bad results.

I absolutely cannot wait to see what happens if Liverpool get a long run of games with a full strength first 11 available. I hope we cut a load of teams to shreds.

I personally don't think our backup is good enough - apart from a couple of players. IMO, we have a fairly average squad.

spockety

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I personally don't think our backup is good enough - apart from a couple of players. IMO, we have a fairly average squad.

Well as I said, I make it that the following backup players are good enough as backup:

Cavalieri (rarely called upon)
Kelly
Insua
Lucas (4th choice central midfield)
Ngog (4th choice striker backup)
Riera

Would you disagree with any of those?
I mean, I presume you would take issue with Lucas or Ngog for example, but imagine if you had someone like Cattermole as 3rd choice midfielder, would it then really bother you that Lucas was in there as 4th choice?

Or if we had someone like Michael Owen or Teddy Sheringham in his early 30's as a 3rd choice striker, would it bother you that much that Ngog made the squad as 4th choice? ETc. etc.

I think the fact that we are missing good backup in certain positions makes people think that what should be the backup to the backup are not actually good enough for the club at all, which is wrong, in my opinion.

Mental Mickey

spockety wrote: »

Well as I said, I make it that the following backup players are good enough as backup:

Cavalieri (rarely called upon)
Kelly
Insua
Lucas (4th choice central midfield)
Ngog (4th choice striker backup)
Riera

Would you disagree with any of those?
I mean, I presume you would take issue with Lucas or Ngog for example, but imagine if you had someone like Cattermole as 3rd choice midfielder, would it then really bother you that Lucas was in there as 4th choice?

Or if we had someone like Michael Owen or Teddy Sheringham in his early 30's as a 3rd choice striker, would it bother you that much that Ngog made the squad as 4th choice? ETc. etc.

I think the fact that we are missing good backup in certain positions makes people think that what should be the backup to the backup are not actually good enough for the club at all, which is wrong, in my opinion.

Lucas & Ngog I would forget about completely. I just don't rate them. You're also forgetting Voronin - that is one awful footballer.

spockety

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Lucas & Ngog I would forget about completely. I just don't rate them. You're also forgetting Voronin - that is one awful footballer.

I already said that Voronin should be sold on, he hasn't worked out.

As it stands, our striker list in order of preference is:

Torres
Gerrard
Ngog
Voronin

That should be

Torres
Gerrard
???????
Ngog

Our central midfield order of picking is:

Mascherano
Aquilani
Lucas
Spearing

That should be:

Mascherano
Aquilani
????????
Lucas


Etc.
These players (particularly Lucas and Ngog) are good enough to be 4th choice. They would get cup runs, cameo appearances for 20 mins at the end of a league victory, and only be called upon to start matches if we are truly injury ravaged.

K-9

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Lucas & Ngog I would forget about completely. I just don't rate them. You're also forgetting Voronin - that is one awful footballer.

Which is assuming we had £8/10 Million to spare on a 2nd choice Striker.

Keane was tried and look how that worked out.

Mental Mickey

spockety wrote: »

I already said that Voronin should be sold on, he hasn't worked out.

As it stands, our striker list in order of preference is:

Torres
Gerrard
Ngog
Voronin

That should be

Torres
Gerrard
???????
Ngog

Our central midfield order of picking is:

Mascherano
Aquilani
Lucas
Plessis

That should be:

Mascherano
Aquilani
????????
Lucas


Etc.
These players (particularly Lucas and Ngog) are good enough to be 4th choice. They would get cup runs, cameo appearances for 20 mins at the end of a league victory, and only be called upon to start matches if we are truly injury ravaged.

I would revert Gerrard into the midfield role, and I would like to see Plessis a lot more. I would like to see Babel used as a second striker alongside Torres. He's a player I like, and I think he is waaaaaaaaaaay short of confidence.

Mental Mickey

K-9 wrote: »

Which is assuming we had £8/10 Million to spare on a 2nd choice Striker.

Keane was tried and look how that worked out.

I've said earlier in this thread that I think Keane was used as a pawn in Rafa's battle to get rid of Parry. And we all know who won that one.

Keane and Torres would've been an incredible partnership had they been given the chance to gel.

K-9

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I've said earlier in this thread that I think Keane was used as a pawn in Rafa's battle to get rid of Parry. And we all know who won that one.

Keane and Torres would've been an incredible partnership had they been given the chance to gel.

As against Gerrard and Torres?

everdead.ie

Lucas seems pretty anonymous in midfield based on tonights performance he's simply not good enough to play for a team that aspires to win the league look at Kranjcar a snip at under 3 million can play right across the midfield great range of passing and can take corners that get past the first man all qualities lucas lacks. The only bonus he'd have over him is that he'd track back better.

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

Which is assuming we had £8/10 Million to spare on a 2nd choice Striker.

Keane was tried and look how that worked out.

Yeah, all Keane's fault that one....

mayordenis

noodler wrote: »

Yeah, all Keane's fault that one....

I don't think he said anything like that.

But having someone of the quality of Keane as mostly a bench player will cause disharmony in the squad.

noodler

mayordenis wrote: »

I don't think he said anything like that.

But having someone of the quality of Keane as mostly a bench player will cause disharmony in the squad.

Unfortunately, we are missing one of the two or both far, far too often.

I would see it as a pick two of three situation rather than having some poor sod sit on the bench for 80% of the season.

Regardless, he badly needs to find someone in between the quality of Keane and N'Gog who will sit on the bench.

invincibleirish

Keane was a strange one alright, he was there for what 120 days? whatever the politics involved he's better then Ngog.

K-9

mayordenis wrote: »

I don't think he said anything like that.

Nope. You are correct.

K-9

noodler wrote: »

Regardless, he badly needs to find someone in between the quality of Keane and N'Gog who will sit on the bench.

Within the Budget.

Bubs101

noodler wrote: »

Unfortunately, we are missing one of the two or both far, far too often.

I would see it as a pick two of three situation rather than having some poor sod sit on the bench for 80% of the season.

Regardless, he badly needs to find someone in between the quality of Keane and N'Gog who will sit on the bench.

Luca Toni is better than Keane and would be glad to get out of Bayern where he's fallen out of favour. he's available on loan as well

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

Within the Budget.

Although I won't call for Rafa to be sacked, I am a bit sick of the excuses made for him budgetwise.

There are around 10-15 PL strikers who could have done the job for less than Keane.

Defoe? Santa Cruz? Hell Bellamy (I'd allow for the team disruption/untenable return factor here though).

Carew? Modric (ss anyway)?

K-9

noodler wrote: »

Although I won't call for Rafa to be sacked, I am a bit sick of the excuses made for him budgetwise.

There are around 10-15 PL strikers who could have done the job for less than Keane.

Defoe? Santa Cruz? Hell Bellamy (I'd allow for the team disruption/untenable return factor here though).

Carew? Modric (ss anyway)?

Which ignores Barry was first choice buy, Keane second. Think we all know how that came about.

noodler

Bubs101 wrote: »

Luca Toni is better than Keane and would be glad to get out of Bayern where he's fallen out of favour. he's available on loan as well

One of those who has rarely impressed me when I get a chance to see him live but has a record you can hardly dispute.

Worry he would be a little slow for the PL but if he came on loan then that would be great.

What age is he anyway?

Bubs101

noodler wrote: »

One of those who has rarely impressed me when I get a chance to see him live but has a record you can hardly dispute.

Worry he would be a little slow for the PL but if he came on loan then that would be great.

What age is he anyway?

He's getting pretty old now. Probably about 33-35 but on loan there's little to no risk and he's a world above Ngog and Vorinin and one of the few strikers with a better record than Torres. Haven't seen much of him in germany so it's possible he's declined but in Serie A this guy was the best striker in a league with a good few great ones.

According to wiki he's 32 and scored a goal every one and a half games last year so I'd take him anyday

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

Which ignores Barry was first choice buy, Keane second. Think we all know how that came about.

Ugh...that is beside the point. Get off Rafa's arse for a moment - I have been defending him in the match thread but lets look at this with a degree of impartiality.

He still wanted/need a striker?

We are going to go around 2.5 years ( bar a brief 6 month period inbetween when Keane was here but many would say he wasn't good enough anyway) without anybody of any note to replace Torres when he is fit.

Crouch and Bellamy have left and an unproven French kid has been given the mammoth responsibility of leading the line when El Nino was out.

This is the crux of my point and doesn't really involve Gareth Barry.

K-9

noodler wrote: »

Crouch and Bellamy have left .

Why?

I'd love if they where still there and Alonso!

nullzero

It's hard to see this bad run continuing for Liverpool.
I would have to say that even without Gerrard and Torres they will manage to beat United this weekend, even if they don't deserve it, they're that type of team and that type of club.
They've been really poor lately, but they always seem to pull themselves together for the really big games and they don't come any bigger than United as far as Liverpool are concerned.
As a United fan Liverpool's recent ban spell is nearly the worst thing I could have hoped for before heading to Anfield. I can see it now, 1-0 to Liverpool thanks to a tap in after four deflections from the one and only, Yossi "Jammy" Benayoun, that or a defensive blunder from Rio:(

magma69

nullzero wrote: »

It's hard to see this bad run continuing for Liverpool.
I would have to say that even without Gerrard and Torres they will manage to beat United this weekend, even if they don't deserve it, they're that type of team and that type of club.
They've been really poor lately, but they always seem to pull themselves together for the really big games and they don't come any bigger than United as far as Liverpool are concerned.
As a United fan Liverpool's recent ban spell is nearly the worst thing I could have hoped for before heading to Anfield. I can see it now, 1-0 to Liverpool thanks to a tap in after four deflections from the one and only, Yossi "Jammy" Benayoun, that or a defensive blunder from Rio:(

The chance of Liverpool beating United without Torres and Gerrard are slim to none. If they are missing the best result Liverpool could realistically could hope for is a draw. A win is possible, Burnley beat United, but extremely unlikely. We are that reliant on both players.

nullzero

magma69 wrote: »

The chance of Liverpool beating United without Torres and Gerrard are slim to none. If they are missing the best result Liverpool could realistically could hope for is a draw. A win is possible, Burnley beat United, but extremely unlikely. We are that reliant on both players.

United aren't free of injuries at the moment either.
There's question marks over the likes of Rooney, Giggs, Vidic, Evra and Park.
It's hard to see either team fielding a full first team on sunday.
Liverpool could react like a wounded animal on Sunday and from past expeience I'd say that is a strong possibility.
I'd like to think United could arrive at Anfield on Sunday and take some measure of revenge for the two defeats last season, but of all the teams in the Premier League, this current Liverpool side can cause United the most problems from shear work rate alone.
I still believe that United are a better side overall than Liverpool, a fact that isn't done any harm by the fact that we have the best manager in club football pulling the strings, but Liverpool will be out to prove a point and a win against United would erase the memories of four defeats in one afternoon, such is the way at Anfield. Rafa would once again be a heroic figure on merseyside, the real problem for Liverpool is getting a good run going, which is really hard to imagine right now.

Liam O

nullzero wrote: »

United aren't free of injuries at the moment either.
There's question marks over the likes of Rooney, Giggs, Vidic, Evra and Park.
It's hard to see either team fielding a full first team on sunday.
Liverpool could react like a wounded animal on Sunday and from past expeience I'd say that is a strong possibility.
I'd like to think United could arrive at Anfield on Sunday and take some measure of revenge for the two defeats last season, but of all the teams in the Premier League, this current Liverpool side can cause United the most problems from shear work rate alone.
I still believe that United are a better side overall than Liverpool, a fact that isn't done any harm by the fact that we have the best manager in club football pulling the strings, but Liverpool will be out to prove a point and a win against United would erase the memories of four defeats in one afternoon, such is the way at Anfield. Rafa would once again be a heroic figure on merseyside, the real problem for Liverpool is getting a good run going, which is really hard to imagine right now.

what and you think the United players are going to still be ok with what happened last season? United will be as desperate to win if not moreso than Liverpool and while I hope it's a win United, I really want to just see a great game...

Jesus Wept

builttospill wrote: »

What about Phil Babb?

A man after my own Phil Babb.

Neil3030

'Cos there's some of us that need to use the bathroom aswell you know!

B'DUM TSSSSSSSSSSSS

<gets coat>

Helix

just looking at liverpools next 10 games...

Liverpool vs Man Utd (PL)
Arsenal vs Liverpool (CC)
Fulham vs Liverpool (PL)
Lyon vs Liverpool (CL)
Liverpool vs Birmingham (PL)
Liverpool vs Man City (PL)
Debrecen vs Liverpool (CL)
Everton vs Liverpool (PL)
Blackburn vs Liverpool (PL)
Liverpool vs Fiorentina (CL)
Liverpool vs Arsenal (PL)

if benitez makes it through them he'll be there til he decides to leave of his own accord imo. its a horrible run of a games and despite hating the phrase "this run will define their season" it really will. it might even define their mid term future

raven136

Helix wrote: »

just looking at liverpools next 10 games...

Liverpool vs Man Utd (PL)
Arsenal vs Liverpool (CC)
Fulham vs Liverpool (PL)
Lyon vs Liverpool (CL)
Liverpool vs Birmingham (PL)
Liverpool vs Man City (PL)
Debrecen vs Liverpool (CL)
Everton vs Liverpool (PL)
Blackburn vs Liverpool (PL)
Liverpool vs Fiorentina (CL)
Liverpool vs Arsenal (PL)

if benitez makes it through them he'll be there til he decides to leave of his own accord imo. its a horrible run of a games and despite hating the phrase "this run will define their season" it really will. it might even define their mid term future

win all the champions league games and 4 of the league games and its back on track.Hard run of games all the same though

Helix

raven136 wrote: »

win all the champions league games and 4 of the league games and its back on track

no doubt about it

serious pressure on for those 10 games anyway

a loss to united and going out of the league cup and its 6 losses in a row... its got to be a long long time since thats happened. now of course football being football, theyre likely to beat united, but still the fact that its being discussed as a possibility speaks volumes about their fortunes of late

daveyboy_1ie

As much as I never like to compliment Liverpool, genuinly I thinkt one thigs is being overlooked about last night. Lyon would have given anyone a run for their money on that display and were streets ahead of 'pool in overall play.

We have to give them credit as they deserved the win and I am glad it was not United playing them. Its not like they were beaten by a team like Barca did (Rubin???) i their home ground???

Jesus Wept

magma69 wrote: »

The chance of Liverpool beating United without Torres and Gerrard are slim to none.

Even if every other squad member were fit?

Bandit12

Many of us had painfully accepted that the longer the Americans continue to cling on to us like grim death, the faster the melt down for the club. Predicting it is one thing, but actually living through it now hurts like hell.

Bandit12

noodler wrote: »

Although I won't call for Rafa to be sacked, I am a bit sick of the excuses made for him budgetwise.

There are around 10-15 PL strikers who could have done the job for less than Keane.

Defoe? Santa Cruz? Hell Bellamy (I'd allow for the team disruption/untenable return factor here though).

Carew? Modric (ss anyway)?

People are continually asking the wrong questions.

The question isn't why are Voronin or NGog playing, the question is why are our two back up strikers free agents and 1 million pound worth of 19 year old? In fact what other top European club continually "buys" free agents and players under the five million mark?

We've been outspent by Manchester United, Chelsea, Manchester City, Arsenal, Sunderland and Tottenham Hotspurs. Our budget in terms of NET SPEND has been 14,000,000 a season since Benitez came which is no better than your midtable clubs. Why? Why in the summer market after pushing for the league were we on a Sell To Buy transfer policy?

I'll give yer a hint; The buck doesnt stop at Rafa

Happy Monday

Did anyone else notice Stevie in the 2nd half last night on the bench?

Disconsolate is the world I would use.

He knows that the the attitude, dominance, swagger, belief that would have been there 12 months ago is gone down river.

Rafa on his salary has to be held accountable for this mess.

Like the poster said above 10 games to Christmas for Rafa to save his credibility and his job.

kida

One of the main reasons Rafa is still there is given the contract extension they cannot afford to sack him. The other school of thought is that the owners do not trust him anymore and hence this is why he didn't get the amount of money he required in the summer.

Losing to United will be a big test of what happens him.

Serious question for pool fans, what over the next few months would warrant getting rid of him?

short term
Losing to Utd
Not making knock out stages of CL
More league defeats

Longer term
Not putting in a decent challenge but scrape into top 4
Not making top 4

mada999

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I'd swap Benny for Gerrard in midfield and put Babel up front. Will Aquilani be fit in time(presuming he doesn't get injured in his reserves appearance)?

again with the Babel loving....... He is not good enough.....he's got plenty of chances...prances around like Bambi and has no touch.....doesn't track back and is afraid to head the ball so always ducks out of the way.... he;s more interested in twitter and his rap career...

rap over...

i think these players are good enough

Reina
Gerrard
Torres
Johnson
Masc
Skrtyl (sp?)
Benny
Aurelio (as a left back)
Agger
carra (although hasn't been playin well this season)
Kuyt

Squad players

Ngog
Lucas
Kelly
Voronin


Players i don't rate and should be sold to buy players with pace

Reira
Babel

kida

Bandit12 wrote: »

People are continually asking the wrong questions.

The question isn't why are Voronin or NGog playing, the question is why are our two back up strikers free agents and 1 million pound worth of 19 year old? In fact what other top European club continually "buys" free agents and players under the five million mark?

We've been outspent by Manchester United, Chelsea, Manchester City, Arsenal, Sunderland and Tottenham Hotspurs. Our budget in terms of NET SPEND has been 14,000,000 a season since Benitez came which is no better than your midtable clubs. Why? Why in the summer market after pushing for the league were we on a Sell To Buy transfer policy?

I'll give yer a hint; The buck doesnt stop at Rafa

partly true - he may not have been backed fully this year but IMO he didn't spend what he did sensibly.

Nearly 20M for a RB is criminal regardless of how good hes been - this is fine if the squad is good enough but 7M max should have spent on a RB or looking at Kelly last night get an experienced older one and trusting Kelly and him to do a job

JoeyJJ

Carra looks like a lost man, I have no trust in him at all and he is slow and has no confidence at all.

Hank Scorpio

Sorry but why are liverpool likely to beat utd?