Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

slingerz

Benitez spent £20 million on a player who is injured until november. He has no right to moan about lack of transfer fees when he goes and does something like that.

mirwillbeback

Thread starter here!!

Gotta say, for me I believe Rafa has to go. All very well, and indeed noble supporting him as most of my Liverpool supporting friends do, but after 5 years, 60 odd purchases and do not be fooled, a hell of a lot of money spent I would argue that ONLY Gerrard / Torres would be first choice at the other " big three ", along with maybe Reina, Mascherano and ( imo the much overrated ) Glen Johnson. Add to that, most of the remainder of your team wouldn't be first choice for Villa, Man City, Spurs and even dare I say it Everton.
And after 5.5 years I think that is madness at that level - I actually feel for your two main players as they deserve a hell of a lot more and I wouldn't be surprised if the current car crash continues, that BOTH could well look to move ( particularly Stevie G who is running out of time ) to a team who can win them a big European League winners medal.
Lastly, for all the talk of challenging last season, when did Liverpool really look like winning it - from what I recall, it was always a long shot, that they were there in case Man U slipped up, and Man U never really looked like throwing that lead away.

gucci

slingerz wrote: »

Benitez spent £20 million on a player who is injured until november. He has no right to moan about lack of transfer fees when he goes and does something like that.

So he would he have been better off spending £20m on a player who might have been fit, but not as good or he believed not to be as good?

thomond2006

Very simple: No Zonal Marking!

The Muppet

Bandit12 wrote: »

We've been outspent by Manchester United, Chelsea, Manchester City, Arsenal, Sunderland and Tottenham Hotspurs. Our budget in terms of NET SPEND has been 14,000,000 a season since Benitez came which is no better than your midtable clubs. Why? Why in the summer market after pushing for the league were we on a Sell To Buy transfer policy?

I'll give yer a hint; The buck doesnt stop at Rafa

Thats just not true he has been outspent by only Chelsea and City , none of the other teams you mention have a higher net spend over the last five years. Arsenal ??? Cmon you can't be serious.


Not wishing to turn this into another spending debate but the truth is the truth, lets stick to that.

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

One of the main reasons Rafa is still there is given the contract extension they cannot afford to sack him. The other school of thought is that the owners do not trust him anymore and hence this is why he didn't get the amount of money he required in the summer.

Losing to United will be a big test of what happens him.

Serious question for pool fans, what over the next few months would warrant getting rid of him?

short term
Losing to Utd
Not making knock out stages of CL
More league defeats

Longer term
Not putting in a decent challenge but scrape into top 4
Not making top 4

Losing to Utd - wouldn't warrant getting rid imo, but it would, rightly or wrongly, make his position extremely difficult and would turn many more against him.
Not making out of group stages, would be forgiveable if by that time we were within 3 or 4 points of league leaders
More league defeats are inevitable, hopefully not too soon though

Scraping into top 4 - i'd have to think about that.
Not making top 4 - is just unthinkable. I don't see how he could continue after that

Now enough of the doomsday scenarios



Here’s my opinion:

Awful season so far.
The players are partly to blame – Carragher has been woeful, Skrtel has been shakey to say the least, Mascherano has been off-kilter (crucial, since he’s there to cover our new attacking full-backs), Gerrard has been very average, Lucas has been overwhelmed starting every game, and overworked. Riera has been shocking when he’s played.
Rafa is partly to blame. Poor selection, poor tactics (Sunderland) and some poor substitutions.
Injuries, luck, beach-balls etc haven’t helped at all.

However, I think we have nearly an excellent squad.

GK – Reina and Cavalieri – I think we’re covered in this department.

RB – Johnson and Kelly (and Degen/Darby/Carra if necessary) – since the start of the season I’ve called for Kelly to be our second choice RB. He did well last night and I think he’ll be reliable if called upon
LB – Insua, Aurelio and Dossena – covered here, imo
CB – Agger, Skrtel, Carragher (and Kyriakos) – we’re definitely one man short here

CM – Mascherano, Aquilani, ?????, and Lucas – Key weakness here

AM – Gerrard, Benayoun, Kuyt, Riera, Babel – I definitely feel we could do with one more name here

CF – Torres, ?????, N’Gog, Voronin – definitely missing someone here.

In summary, I think if in the summer Rafa had been given 20m net on transfers instead of nothing we could have a much stronger squad.
Cover for defense. Cover for Central midfield and a Striker/Winger would have been much welcome and wouldn’t have had to break the bank.

Oh, how I wish we hadn’t needed to get rid of Crouch, Bellamy and Sissoko to fund better purchases. What great backup for Mascherano Momo would be. And Crouch for Torres. It makes me sad.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Thats just not true he has been outspent by only Chelsea and City , none of the other teams you mention have a higher net spend over the last five years. Arsenal ??? Cmon you can't be serious.


Not wishing to turn this into another spending debate but the truth is the truth, lets stick to that.

Spurs, Chelsea, City and Villa as far as i know. United before the Ronaldo sale as well.
Certainly not Arsenal though

grames_bond

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Lastly, for all the talk of challenging last season, when did Liverpool really look like winning it - from what I recall, it was always a long shot, that they were there in case Man U slipped up, and Man U never really looked like throwing that lead away.

at one stage iirc liverpool were 4 points clear at the top! they were in the thick of it for a long time and werent just there "incase utd slipped up"...this season i dont know what has gone wrong atm, the team just cant gel, the next few games are vital to them!

Boggles

grames_bond wrote: »

at one stage iirc liverpool were 4 points clear at the top!

What stage was that?

jank

Why are people going on about transfers. Rafa has spent the guts of 38 million on 2 players. He has no right no moan about money or lack there of.

kida

jank wrote: »

Why are people going on about transfers. Rafa has spent the guts of 38 million on 2 players. He has no right no moan about money or lack there of.

exactly - given the weakness in the squad it was crazy to spend that amount on 2 players

invincibleirish

Hansen said in the Telegraph on Monday that Benitez's major flaw has been poor signings in the 1-9 million pound bracket as opposed to splashing the CL cash on the big money signings. Anyone disagree? Still think it'd be knee jerk to get rid of him now, although t'would be entertaining for the neutral.

whatawaster

Yes but not strengthening the squad.

Xabi Alonso leaves. He needs to be replaced. Aquilani comes in.
Alvaro Arbeloa leaves. He needs to be replaced. Glen Johnson comes in.

Nowhere is Benitez given money to strengthen his squad. Merely to repair it.

whatawaster

invincibleirish wrote: »

Hansen said in the Telegraph on Monday that Benitez's major flaw has been poor signings in the 1-9 million pound bracket as opposed to splashing the CL cash on the big money signings. Anyone disagree? Still think it'd be knee jerk to get rid of him now, although t'would be entertaining for the neutral.

I think that’s a fair enough argument. Or it would have been a few years ago. I think Riera, Skrtel, Agger, Reina, Insua, Benayoun are evidence to the contrary
Though to be fair to Benitez his tendency to buy cheaper players was mostly back when he needed to makes major changes to the squad and buy 5/6 players a summer.
Since then he’s tended towards the bigger signings.

NabyLadistheman

jank wrote: »

Why are people going on about transfers. Rafa has spent the guts of 38 million on 2 players. He has no right no moan about money or lack there of.

Who else would you buy so for 38 mill considering we needed to replace a right-back & central midfielder?? You'd be doing well to have much change left out of that for quality players. Especially when you consider how inflated the market was the past transfer window. If he goes for quantidy over quality all people would be saying is that there's no quality, like they are now. FFS he had 1 mill to spend on a centre back? Damned if you do and damned if ya don't.

And for the record if Rafa goes god help this club.

kida

whatawaster wrote: »

Yes but not strengthening the squad.

Xabi Alonso leaves. He needs to be replaced. Aquilani comes in.
Alvaro Arbeloa leaves. He needs to be replaced. Glen Johnson comes in.

Nowhere is Benitez given money to strengthen his squad. Merely to repair it.

spend 5M-7M on a full back so and maybe 10M on a midfielder

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

Though to be fair to Benitez his tendency to buy cheaper players was mostly back when he needed to makes major changes to the squad and buy 5/6 players a summer.
Since then he’s tended towards the bigger signings.

This comment always makes me laugh, you would think that he inherited a relegation threatened team. He didn't he inherited a top 4 team the guts of which won the Champions league in 2005.

Rafa has purchased over 50 players, just how many players can he have in his squad? How many right backs did he buy in the last five years?

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

spend 5M-7M on a full back so and maybe 10M on a midfielder

What quality full-back would you get for 5-7m?
Nobody in Johnson’s class certainly.
It also seems certain that Johnson was bought before Rafa knew about his financial restrictions (ie: before the refinancing of the loans) because we seemed to be in to buy Tevez as well this summer.
So when the restrictions were known to him he had spent 17m on a RB. Then Alonso left, as he knew he would and he was replaced with Aquilani, who we’re all hoping will be of Alonso’s quality. Time will tell.
I think it’s fair to say that Rafa thought he’d have the money to buy Johnson and Aquilani to replace his outgoings and still have 20 million to fill holes in the squad – namely backup defender, backup central midfielder and a backup forward player. Our squad would look much stronger had this reasonable assumption have been true.

Headshot

whatawaster wrote: »

What quality full-back would you get for 5-7m?
Nobody in Johnson’s class certainly.
It also seems certain that Johnson was bought before Rafa knew about his financial restrictions (ie: before the refinancing of the loans) because we seemed to be in to buy Tevez as well this summer.
So when the restrictions were known to him he had spent 17m on a RB. Then Alonso left, as he knew he would and he was replaced with Aquilani, who we’re all hoping will be of Alonso’s quality. Time will tell.
I think it’s fair to say that Rafa thought he’d have the money to buy Johnson and Aquilani to replace his outgoings and still have 20 million to fill holes in the squad – namely backup defender, backup central midfielder and a backup forward player. Our squad would look much stronger had this reasonable assumption have been true.

utd got evra for around 5-7m

NabyLadistheman

Headshot wrote: »

utd got evra for around 5-7m

3 or 4 years ago? What full back this summer would you have bought for that?

thorbarry

Headshot wrote: »

utd got evra for around 5-7m

Not to mention how cheap arsenals full backs have been

altho sagna was about 9/10 million

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

utd got evra for around 5-7m

That’s neither here nor there. Would you have sold him to us in the summer for 5-7m?
Johnson, so far, looks like money well spent. I wouldn’t change the fact we bought him for a second.

whatawaster

thorbarry wrote: »

Not to mention how cheap arsenals full backs have been

Yes, and Insua was similarly cheap.

But quality, cheap players like that don’t grow on trees. In fact they’re bloody difficult to find. I can’t think of many right backs in football who would give us near what Johnson gives us for even half his price. Certainly, the only right backs in England like that are Bosingwa and Sagna I think.

thorbarry

whatawaster wrote: »

But quality, cheap players like that don’t grow on trees. In fact they’re bloody difficult to find. I can’t think of many right backs in football who would give us near what Johnson gives us for even half his price. Certainly, the only right backs in England like that are Bosingwa and Sagna I think.

indeed, very hard to find a good fullback to come in at 5-7m and be your number one choice. Johnson is very good, even if he was a bit pricey

Xavi6

torresistheman wrote: »

3 or 4 years ago? What full back this summer would you have bought for that?

Stephen Warnock for £8 million

NabyLadistheman

Xavi6 wrote: »

Stephen Warnock for £8 million

He's a left back - someone cheaper than Johnson we were supposed to get

Warper

torresistheman wrote: »

3 or 4 years ago? What full back this summer would you have bought for that?

Barca got Maxwell for around €3m, Juve got Grosso for less.

Benitez has signed around 67 players in 5 years and still they are no closer to winning the title than when he took over. They have 4 world-class players in Reina, Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano. They have no decent striker apart from Torres as Kuyt is now more of a winger. The likes of Keane, Vorinin, Ngog have been disasters. All you need to do is look at Liverpool's bench last night to see their quality - there is no strength in depth compared to Utd or Chelsea.

raven136

didnt liverpool not have full back issues,last season we were told they were attacking enough.Isnt Johnson better value performance wise than Valencia at United?

Warper

thorbarry wrote: »

indeed, very hard to find a good fullback to come in at 5-7m and be your number one choice. Johnson is very good, even if he was a bit pricey

Johnson is a very average defender - he is great going forward but makes some horrendous defensive mistakes. Liverpool paid way over the odds for him. He would never make it in one of the top sides hence why Chelsea sold him.

_blank_

raven136 wrote: »

didnt liverpool not have full back issues,last season we were told they were attacking enough.Isnt Johnson better value performance wise than Valencia at United?

It's not about United.

Why do Liverpool fans always do this?

"Yeah well, yer man at United is shíte, so how dare you criticise Liverpool".

Makes little sense.

NabyLadistheman

Warper wrote: »

Johnson is a very average defender - he is great going forward but makes some horrendous defensive mistakes. Liverpool paid way over the odds for him. He would never make it in one of the top sides hence why Chelsea sold him.

He hasn't done anything wrong so far? FFS Chelsea tried to sign him this summer but he chose Liverpool instead. He left Chelsea because Morinho brought in Ferreira & pushed him out.

invincibleirish

Warper wrote: »

Benitez has signed around 67 players in 5 years and still they are no closer to winning the title than when he took over.

Surely this unrealistic expectation is the problem Benitez faces? Pool haven't been able to match the resources of Man Utd or Chelsea during his time in charge of Pool and yet he's done very well to keep them in the CL places but to expect him to consistently challenge for the PL whilst having financial constraints put on him is a bit pie in the sky tbh.

NabyLadistheman

Des wrote: »

It's not about United.

Why do Liverpool fans always do this?

"Yeah well, yer man at United is shíte, so how dare you criticise Liverpool".

Makes little sense.

In fairness Des the majority in here that have a say on Liverpool are United fan's. Is it wrong to try an compare using your team as an example?

Xavi6

torresistheman wrote: »

He's a left back - someone cheaper than Johnson we were supposed to get

Well I would have shipped out Aurelio myself as well, but if we're going on right backs alone then Heitenga would have been a solid purchase to play at right back and also cover in the centre.

Also should've gone for Bassong btw.

whatawaster

Xavi6 wrote: »

Well I would have shipped out Aurelio myself as well, but if we're going on right backs alone then Heitenga would have been a solid purchase to play at right back and also cover in the centre.

Also should've gone for Bassong btw.

1. Our problem was we needed more attacking Full-backs, Heitinga is not that. He would have been a similar player to Arbeloa, but more expensive
2. Where would we have got the money for Bassong? That's the problem

Xavi6

whatawaster wrote: »

1. Our problem was we needed more attacking Full-backs, Heitinga is not that. He would have been a similar player to Arbeloa, but more expensive

Why do you need more attacking full backs if it means you're going to lose out at the back?

Sounds very Kevin Keegan to me.

2. Where would we have got the money for Bassong? That's the problem

Spend less on a right back....

whatawaster

Xavi6 wrote: »

Why do you need more attacking full backs if it means you're going to lose out at the back?

Sounds very Kevin Keegan to me.



Spend less on a right back....

Lack of penetration from full-back was very costly to us last season. That position is where Chelsea, Arsenal and United were particularly far ahead of us.
Rafa can’t win, he’s been slaughtered for years for not having rampaging FB’s. He’s finally got them. The balance of the side isn’t quite right, but imo that’s far more down to poor form of players.

We have lost out defensively this year mainly because of the poor form of Carra and Skrtel, as well as Mascherano’s patchy form and being in and out of the side.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Lack of penetration from full-back was very costly to us last season. That position is where Chelsea, Arsenal and United were particularly far ahead of us.

They are all excellent defenders first though. Not excellent attackers that can defend.

Mr Alan

the money owed for Crouch (about 7m was written off the johnson fee). so if Johnson cost 17m, there was actually only 10m cash available to Rafa to spend. which is about what the other players mentioned here would cost, none of whom are near as good as johnson.

johnson has been a brilliant buy, i am at a loss as to why that is even being discussed?!

defensively he has been very good, with the exception of one of the fiorentina goals, he hasn't put a foot wrong and has been our best "defender" so far this season, as well as the attacking option he gives.

Bandit12

The fact is Rafa brought Liverpool to within 4 points of the title last season and even a fool could see he needed to be backed by the owners in bringing in the extra quality to win it this year.They did'nt back him and now we are seeing the results. Look at Stevie's and Carra's body language this season. They know the quality was'nt brought in and they are without a doubt disheartend. I've said it for going on three seasons now that Hicks and Gillete will bring the club to it's knees.

Xavi6

whatawaster wrote: »

Lack of penetration from full-back was very costly to us last season. That position is where Chelsea, Arsenal and United were particularly far ahead of us.
Rafa can’t win, he’s been slaughtered for years for not having rampaging FB’s. He’s finally got them. The balance of the side isn’t quite right, but imo that’s far more down to poor form of players.

The primary role of a full back is to defend. If they can't do that efficiently then they aren't worth a shite.

The three other teams you mentioned have got attacking fullbacks, but they are also very good defenders at the same time and that's the fundamental difference.

We have lost out defensively this year mainly because of the poor form of Carra and Skrtel, as well as Mascherano’s patchy form and being in and out of the side.

And I believe that the form of Carragher and Skrtel can be somewhat attributed to the extra work they have to do to cover the space left by this penetrating full back.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

They are all excellent defenders first though. Not excellent attackers that can defend.

I certainly wouldn’t call them all excellent defenders. All excellent players, and all at least good defenders.
Johnson has been a good defender so far for Liverpool imo. And excellent going forward. I don’t think he’s been to blame for much of our defensive woes this season – it’s been poor defending of set-plays and crosses mainly.
Insua has been patchy. Mostly decent defensively, but a couple of dodgy displays lately. But he’s young and learning.
I still think Aurelio is a more solid all-round full back

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

the money owed for Crouch (about 7m was written off the johnson fee). so if Johnson cost 17m, there was actually only 10m cash available to Rafa to spend. which is about what the other players mentioned here would cost, none of whom are near as good as johnson.

Put Pompey still owed 7 million, if ye went elsewhere this debt wouldn't have been forgiven, it was still millions that was owed.

whatawaster

Xavi6 wrote: »

The primary role of a full back is to defend. If they can't do that efficiently then they aren't worth a shite.

The three other teams you mentioned have got attacking fullbacks, but they are also very good defenders at the same time and that's the fundamental difference.


And I believe that the form of Carragher and Skrtel can be somewhat attributed to the extra work they have to do to cover the space left by this penetrating full back.

If the full-back’s vacate space it’s the job of Mascherano or Lucas to fill it, not Carra or Skrtel.
Arbeloa was constantly getting forward last season and leaving gaps. He just wasn’t great at beating players and delivering crosses. But Masch and Alonso coped with it and our defending didn’t suffer

raido9

torresistheman wrote: »

3 or 4 years ago? What full back this summer would you have bought for that?

Arbeloa for €4M

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Put Pompey still owed 7 million, if ye went elsewhere this debt wouldn't have been forgiven, it was still millions that was owed.

over a few seasons.

Mr Alan

raido9 wrote: »

Arbeloa for €4M

wanted to go to Spain & Real Madrid in particular.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

over a few seasons.

Isn't that how most transfers are done these days anyways?

Buy 7 million pound full back over a staggered payment, pay it back with the Pompey money.

raido9

Mr Alan wrote: »

wanted to go to Spain & Real Madrid in particular.

Just an example of decent full backs, and their transfer fees this summer.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Isn't that how most transfers are done these days anyways?

Buy 7 million pound full back over a staggered payment, pay it back with the Pompey money.

or buy the one of the best right back in the league? who is still only 23 & English. which we did.

i'm confused as to why this is being discussed? off all the failings of Liverpool this season, Glen Johnson is not one of them.