Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Mr Alan

raido9 wrote: »

Just an example of decent full backs, and their transfer fees this summer.

not really like for like though is it?
Arbeloa only had a year on his contract & only wanted to go to one club.

Johnson had just signed a new deal & a host of top clubs were in for him.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

or buy the one of the best right back in the league? who is still only 23 & English. which we did.

i'm confused as to why this is being discussed? off all the failings of Liverpool this season, Glen Johnson is not one of them.

He is nowhere near one of the best right backs in the league Al, stop fooling yourself.

The point was instead of spunking the bones of 20 mill on a full back get one cheaper and invest where the squad and team are lacking.

Prufrock

If Liverpool want to take heart from anything then the should look at their opponents from last night. Lyon had better players. Lyon have spent

Bafetimbi Gomis from Saint-Etienne for a fee of €13m;
Defender Aly Cissokho from Porto for a fee of €15m;
Brazilian defender Michel Bastos from Lille for a fee of €18m;
Argentinean forward Lisandro Lopez from Porto for a fee of €24m

Total: €70m

They've done this in 1 season and rebuilt the spine of their team. Liverpool have less rebuilding to do than Lyon did. Also for the over inflated market some of the above aren't bad buys at all.

Now Liverpool

Greek defender Sotirios Kyrgiakos from AEK Athens for a fee of €2m;
Italian midfielder Alberto Aquilani from Roma for a fee of €23m;
French defender Chris Mavinga from Paris St. Germain €?m;
Defender Glen Johnson from Portsmouth for a fee of €20.5m.

Total: €45.5 for sure (maby €50.5-€55.5 when you add in Mavinga?)

Only Johnson has played regular football this season. Aquilani should perform when he gets into the team. I'd say that Lyon got better bang for their buck though. I know resources are ment to be tight at Liverpool but if they really want to win the league and do well in the CL they need more quality up frount.

Keane was a good attacking option. Leto was different but couldn't make the team. Torres is world class. Ngog needs experience.....Voronin.....moving on. Babel might as well be a non entity on the bench.

Oh and Insua.....I haven't seen enough of him but Govou ran rings around him last night.

raido9

Prufrock wrote: »

If Liverpool want to take heart from anything then the should look at their opponents from last night. Lyon had better players. Lyon have spent

Bafetimbi Gomis from Saint-Etienne for a fee of €13m;
Defender Aly Cissokho from Porto for a fee of €15m;
Brazilian defender Michel Bastos from Lille for a fee of €18m;
Argentinean forward Lisandro Lopez from Porto for a fee of €24m

Total: €70m

They've done this in 1 season and rebuilt the spine of their team. Liverpool have less rebuilding to do than Lyon did. Also for the over inflated market some of the above aren't bad buys at all.

Now Liverpool

Greek defender Sotirios Kyrgiakos from AEK Athens for a fee of €2m;
Italian midfielder Alberto Aquilani from Roma for a fee of €23m;
French defender Chris Mavinga from Paris St. Germain €?m;
Defender Glen Johnson from Portsmouth for a fee of €20.5m.

Total: €45.5 for sure (maby €50.5-€55.5 when you add in Mavinga?)

Only Johnson has played regular football this season. Aquilani should perform when he gets into the team. I'd say that Lyon got better bang for their buck though. I know resources are ment to be tight at Liverpool but if they really want to win the league and do well in the CL they need more quality up frount.

Keane was a good attacking option. Leto was different but couldn't make the team. Torres is world class. Ngog needs experience.....Voronin.....moving on. Babel might as well be a non entity on the bench.

Oh and Insua.....I haven't seen enough of him but Govou ran rings around him last night.

Do you want to mention the players Lyon have lost, and their fees too?

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

He is nowhere near one of the best right backs in the league Al, stop fooling yourself.

The point was instead of spunking the bones of 20 mill on a full back get one cheaper and invest where the squad and team are lacking.

the team were lacking a good attacking RB. we needed a right back. if we had of gone out & bought cheaply & Johnson had gone to City or Chelsea, i 10000% assure you that you'd be on here saying how we should have bought quality & got Johnson.

you just like putting the boot into Liverpool, there's no issue with that, but don't pretend to be some calm voice of reason.

and he was in the team of the season last year & is in most peoples opinions, one of the best RB in the league this year so far, so yea, i'd say he is one of the best RBs around.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

the team were lacking a good attacking RB. we needed a right back. if we had of gone out & bought cheaply & Johnson had gone to City or Chelsea, i 10000% assure you that you'd be on here saying how we should have bought quality & got Johnson.

Not exactly Al.

What I said in the summer before ye were linked with Johnson was he combined with Barry and a 10m pound striker would be excellent signings.

Johnson at nearly 20 mill was not part of my package. I was thinking more 10, 10 & 10 on 3 players.

Rafa burnt his bridges with Barry, over paid for Johnson and spunked another 20 million on an unknown injured midfielder.

That is not good business whichever way you look at it.

Mr Alan wrote: »

you just like putting the boot into Liverpool, there's no issue with that, but don't pretend to be some calm voice of reason.

Where exactly am I putting the boot in?

Any signings I suggested seem fair and resonable, and importantly I'm not stating it after the fact.

raido9

Mr Alan wrote: »

the team were lacking a good attacking RB. we needed a right back. if we had of gone out & bought cheaply & Johnson had gone to City or Chelsea, i 10000% assure you that you'd be on here saying how we should have bought quality & got Johnson.

you just like putting the boot into Liverpool, there's no issue with that, but don't pretend to be some calm voice of reason.

and he was in the team of the season last year & is in most peoples opinions, one of the best RB in the league this year so far, so yea, i'd say he is one of the best RBs around.

Why are we still talking about Johnson. He is and always has been a very good right back in the premiership.

All the big teams (except Arsenal maybe) have overpaid for top English defenders.


I don't think the problem is Johnson. Its the lack of depth when Torres or Gerrard are out. There's not many players who have the ability to step up. Benayoun seems to raise his game when its needed and Kuyt will always give it socks but thats about it from what I can see.

Prufrock

raido9 wrote: »

Do you want to mention the players Lyon have lost, and their fees too?

Lyon lost

Sandy Paillot (undisclosed, Grenoble)
Karim Benzema (€35m, Real Madrid)
Abdulkader Keita (€10m, Galatasaray)
Juninho(Free, Al Gharafa)

raido9

Prufrock wrote: »

Juninho(Free, Al Gharafa)

Sorry, this is off topic but I cant get over the Juninho transfer? Free to Al Gharafa, crazy!

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Not exactly Al.

What I said in the summer before ye were linked with Johnson was he combined with Barry and a 10m pound striker would be excellent signings.

Johnson at nearly 20 mill was not part of my package. I was thinking more 10, 10 & 10 on 3 players.

Rafa burnt his bridges with Barry, over paid for Johnson and spunked another 20 million on an unknown injured midfielder.

That is not good business whichever way you look at it.

Edit: I'm going for lunch now. No more discussion for 40 minutes.

Until Aquilani settles into the team we won't know.

But there's every chance that Aquilani+Johnson = Alonso+Arbeloa.
And there's always some chance that they'll be better.

BTW Johnson was 17m and so was Aquilani at the exchange rates at the time.
If Barry had been a little more patient and waited a few weeks he might be a liverpool player now. But then again, maybe City is the better place to be right now.

Mr Alan

Johnson for 17m has been a great buy, especially when you view other players that cost similar amounts of money over the last few years.

the fact that you seem unable to agree with something so blindingly obvious is funny.

10m for replacement for Alonso? ha ha Barry cost 12 & there'd only ever have been one winner in a bidding war with us & City.

wat 10m striker would you have bought who'd be happy to sit on the bench?

i wanted a stiker too, but if you accept that our budget for this season was wat we spent this summer, & that the guts of 20m was always gonna be spent on Alonsos replacement, you'd have been looking at a RB & striker for 10m. (with an additional 7 available over a few years).

imo the additional monies is not really much use as that 7m would make up the majority of the money in the deal, when have you ever heard of a players being bought for 3, rising to 10m?

clubs dont like the majority of a payment being done in stages, for obvious reasons.

Prufrock

raido9 wrote: »

Sorry, this is off topic but I cant get over the Juninho transfer? Free to Al Gharafa, crazy!

His contract is worth like 2.5m.

But to get it back on topic Lyon have spent heavily to replace any players they lost and have lost once in all competitions this year. They spent a good 20.5m(maby less) more than Liverpool to rebuild. Can Liverpool not match the spending power of Lyon?

raido9

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat 10m striker would you have bought who'd be happy to sit on the bench?

Michael Owen. And 10m change.

Paleface

Mr Alan wrote: »

Johnson for 17m has been a great buy, especially when you view other players that cost similar amounts of money over the last few years.

What other right backs cost 17m?

Prufrock

Mr Alan wrote: »

Johnson for 17m has been a great buy, especially when you view other players that cost similar amounts of money over the last few years.

Johnson is a good buy if nothing else he offers an option down the right. Against weaker teams he can be a nightmare cause they can't expose the space he leaves behind when he charges forward. Just has to learn not to do it as often against good passing teams. Considering Liverpool struggled to beat weaker teams last season it was a smart buy.

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat 10m striker would you have bought who'd be happy to sit on the bench?

Bafetimbi Gomis was 13m...came off the bench last night. :pac:

raven136

Paleface wrote: »

What other right backs cost 17m?

Dani Alves,Ramos,Thuram.Would you say that he defends worse than Ramos or Alves?

Chelsea paid 17m for a left back despite having a great left back already and not a peep about it

Mr Alan

Paleface wrote: »

What other right backs cost 17m?

Dani Alves cost €34m-people don't seem to piss & moan about him being a such a good attacker.

Bosingwa was £16.5m, i'd certainly rate Johnson higher than him (so would Ancellotti too seen as he tried to purchase Johnson)

Wayne Bridge, a chelsea back up player, cost 14m, again Johnson is a far superior player.

Zhirkov-17m wasn't he?

Paleface

Mr Alan wrote: »

Dani Alves cost €34m-people don't seem to piss & moan about him being a such a good attacker.

Bosingwa was £16.5m, i'd certainly rate Johnson higher than him (so would Ancellotti too seen as he tried to purchase Johnson)

Wayne Bridge, a chelsea back up player, cost 14m, again Johnson is a far superior player.

Zhirkov-17m wasn't he?

You can't compare the prices Chelsea pay for players with Liverpool. Chelsea pay over the odds for everyone because they can. Liverpool can't and Rafa should have thought about that when he spent the money.

Prufrock

Mr Alan wrote: »

Zhirkov-17m wasn't he?

18m.

Mr Alan

Paleface wrote: »

You can't compare the prices Chelsea pay for players with Liverpool. Chelsea pay over the odds for everyone because they can. Liverpool can't and Rafa should have thought about that when he spent the money.

i'd imagine he did, he thought, ****-i've to get a top class RB & i have 10m to spend?! oh wait, pompey over us 1.5m a year for the next few! that johnson lad is pretty class! Ding Ding!

also, tis funny how people say you can't compare our ability to spend to Chelseas!.....em why not? people have no problem comparing our return & expect us to be able to beat Chelsea in the league!?

Johner

Zhirkov is equally effective as a left winger so it was hardly 18million on cover for Ashley Cole to be honest.

Mr Alan

Johner wrote: »

Zhirkov is equally effective as a left winger so it was hardly 18million on cover for Ashley Cole to be honest.

Johnson is a pretty nifty right winger as well.

Johner

For what its worth I think Johnson is one of the best right backs in the league and has been one of ur best players this season.

Paleface

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd imagine he did, he thought, ****-i've to get a top class RB & i have 10m to spend?! oh wait, pompey over us 1.5m a year for the next few! that johnson lad is pretty class! Ding Ding!

also, tis funny how people say you can't compare our ability to spend to Chelseas!.....em why not? people have no problem comparing our return & expect us to be able to beat Chelsea in the league!?

I think a second striker would have been better use of the money. Just cause Pompey owed them the money doesn't mean he had to spend it with them!

And Liverpool are not owned by a billionaire who throws money at his club when ever they ask for it!

Mr Alan

Paleface wrote: »

I think a second striker would have been better use of the money. Just cause Pompey owed them the money doesn't mean he had to spend it with them!

And Liverpool are not owned by a billionaire who throws money at his club when ever they ask for it!

it does however mean that if he wanted access to that money this season, he had to spend it with them, luckily enough the best english attacking RB in the league was with them.

i don't really get your point about wanting a striker instead, does that mean you'd have just had no RB?

Paleface

Mr Alan wrote: »

it does however mean that if he wanted access to that money this season, he had to spend it with them, luckily enough the best english attacking RB in the league was with them.

i don't really get your point about wanting a striker instead, does that mean you'd have just had no RB?

I just think it was a bad managerial decision to spend that amount of money on a right back in Liverpool's situation. They rely on Gerrard and Torres so heavily for goals that if neither of them are available then Liverpool are going to find it harder to score. Kuyt and Benayoun get the odd goal but no more than the norm from their positions.

No right back is going to fill that void either.

Mr Alan

you're totally missing the point that we HAD to buy a RB in the summer.

Kuyt & Yossi get the odd goal? didn't they get 30 odd between them last season in all comps?

of course Liverpool are gonna find it harder to score without Torres & Gerrard, they are two of the best attacking players in the world.

Iago

Liverpool have 22 goals in the league this year so far.

Torres has 7
gerrard has 3

they seem to be doing ok at the minute on that front. I think they're a little light up front, but there's no shortage of players who can score goals in the team.

Villain

I think the point is Johnson isn't the only RB in the world, and they could have spent 5m-8m on a RB and 10m on a striker and the affect may have better than buying Johnson and relying on Ngog and Voronin.

I said last night that one it went 1-1 Liverpool were fecked because Ngog and Voronin weren't going to get the goal needed.

TBH the problem is funds, Rafa has bought plenty of players of the past years and sold plenty but he has never been able to add or keep quality in dept due to funds lacking. If he had money to build a squad he may well have challenged for the title this year, but its a bit like Villa last year when they lost Laursen, the difference between Liverpool and Utd and Chelsea is Utd and Chelsea can take big player injuries and still challenge, if the Pool lose big players they can't

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

you're totally missing the point that we HAD to buy a RB in the summer.

FFS - do you not get it - you did not have to spend 18M on one

kida

Villain wrote: »

I think the point is Johnson isn't the only RB in the world, and they could have spent 5m-8m on a RB and 10m on a striker and the affect may have better than buying Johnson and relying on Ngog and Voronin.

They even had one playing last night that looked like he could do a decent job. Buy a cheap experienced one with Kelly and problem solved.

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

FFS - do you not get it - you did not have to spend 18M on one

17m.

7 of which was not available to us with any club apart from Portsmouth due to monies they owe us.

so realistically, you'd have been looking at buying a RB & back up striker for 10m. unless you could find a club that was willing to allow the vast majority of a transfer fee to be paid in installments over a number of years.

SteM

Iago wrote: »

Liverpool have 22 goals in the league this year so far.

Torres has 7
gerrard has 3

they seem to be doing ok at the minute on that front. I think they're a little light up front, but there's no shortage of players who can score goals in the team.

They're interesting stats. Any idea what sort of assists either provided for the other 12 goals, or the assists for each others goals?

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

17m.

7 of which was not available to us with any club apart from Portsmouth due to monies they owe us.

so realistically, you'd have been looking at buying a RB & back up striker for 10m. unless you could find a club that was willing to allow the vast majority of a transfer fee to be paid in installments over a number of years.

thats not the way transfers work and you know it

Paleface

Mr Alan wrote: »

you're totally missing the point that we HAD to buy a RB in the summer.

Kuyt & Yossi get the odd goal? didn't they get 30 odd between them last season in all comps?

of course Liverpool are gonna find it harder to score without Torres & Gerrard, they are two of the best attacking players in the world.

OK so they HAD to buy a right back. Why not go out and then and spend as much money as possible on one I suppose!

I don't know how many goals they scored between them last season. I do know that Benayoun scored last night and was then taken off. Why did Rafa do that??? He was booed at the time for doing so aswell! Surely you keep the players who score you goals on the pitch.

You need a good squad to win anything these days. Liverpool have too much mediocrity on the bench in terms of attack. Voronin is a prime example of that!

Mr Alan

would have kept benayoun on myself.

Iago

SteM wrote: »

They're interesting stats. Any idea what sort of assists either provided for the other 12 goals, or the assists for each others goals?

Actually looks like Torres has 8 goals not 7.

It also looks like neither of them have an assist in the league this year, not sure if that's right or not.

This is a great site for information purposes http://premiersoccerstats.com/Records.cfm

Quandary

Rafa seriously doesnt do his case any favors by making decisions like taking Yossi off when a goal is needed, but maybe he's trying to save him for Utd at the weekend? Gerrard could well be out for that match too, any word on him?

~Rebel~

Paleface wrote: »

OK so they HAD to buy a right back. Why not go out and then and spend as much money as possible on one I suppose!

I don't know how many goals they scored between them last season. I do know that Benayoun scored last night and was then taken off. Why did Rafa do that??? He was booed at the time for doing so aswell! Surely you keep the players who score you goals on the pitch.

You need a good squad to win anything these days. Liverpool have too much mediocrity on the bench in terms of attack. Voronin is a prime example of that!

I would have kept Yossi on too, but it doesn't take too much thought to see why he was taken off, 84minutes were gone, pool looked to have the draw, and we NEED Yossi fit for Sunday, Rafa obviously weighed up the risks, decided (incorrectly) that pool could hold the draw for 6 minutes and took him off.

whatawaster

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I would have kept Yossi on too, but it doesn't take too much thought to see why he was taken off, 84minutes were gone, pool looked to have the draw, and we NEED Yossi fit for Sunday, Rafa obviously weighed up the risks, decided (incorrectly) that pool could hold the draw for 6 minutes and took him off.

a draw was no good to us yesterday. It looked good after 93 minutes maybe, but it was no good.
It was a crazy decision to take Benayoun off, but all managers are prone to such madness.

drkpower

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I would have kept Yossi on too, but it doesn't take too much thought to see why he was taken off, 84minutes were gone, pool looked to have the draw, and we NEED Yossi fit for Sunday, Rafa obviously weighed up the risks, decided (incorrectly) that pool could hold the draw for 6 minutes and took him off.

Yes; because the 6 or 7 minutes was going to make a massive difference to his condition come Saturday!

'Saving players for the next game' usually involves leaving someone out in a home game v wolves or taking someone off after 60 minutes when you are 3-0 up. You dont take your best player on the night off in a 1-1 draw with 6 minutes left for the purposes of the next game. Or if you do, you are losing it....

Paleface

drkpower wrote: »

Yes; because the 6 or 7 minutes was going to make a massive difference to his condition come Saturday!

'Saving players for the next game' usually involves leaving someone out in a home game v wolves or taking someone off after 60 minutes when you are 3-0 up. You dont take your best player on the night off in a 1-1 draw with 6 minutes left for the purposes of the next game. Or if you do, you are losing it....

The only time I think a substitution like that is acceptable is when your trying to wind down the clock. But it was a bit early even for that last night!

RasTa

..

The Spaniard also explained the decision to take off Yossi Benayoun and send on Andriy Voronin in the closing stages against Lyon - a choice that was booed by the Kop.

"The fans know Yossi is a good player, but I felt he was getting a little tired and I wanted to use some fresh legs. We needed to change something, to put a fresher man on, and it was a chance worth taking," concluded Benitez.

~Rebel~

drkpower wrote: »

Yes; because the 6 or 7 minutes was going to make a massive difference to his condition come Saturday!

'Saving players for the next game' usually involves leaving someone out in a home game v wolves or taking someone off after 60 minutes when you are 3-0 up. You dont take your best player on the night off in a 1-1 draw with 6 minutes left for the purposes of the next game. Or if you do, you are losing it....

not that he was going to be a little more tired on Sunday, but to be sure he wasn't going to get injured when on already tired legs going into final minutes. We're already likely to be without Torres and Gerrard as it is. Yes those 6 or 7 minutes he was unlikely to get an injury, but at that point with little time left to lose the game, Rafa was probably happy with the status quo and took him off.

Or fine, if you want we can just say it was a completely irrational stupid decision and Rafa's an idiot, I prefer to think he had a reason and logic behind it and am putting forward suggestions.

Headshot

RasTa wrote: »

..

how Voronin came on instead of babel, ill never understand that

drkpower

~Rebel~ wrote: »

not that he was going to be a little more tired on Sunday, but to be sure he wasn't going to get injured when on already tired legs going into final minutes. We're already likely to be without Torres and Gerrard as it is. Yes those 6 or 7 minutes he was unlikely to get an injury, but at that point with little time left to lose the game, Rafa was probably happy with the status quo and took him off.

Or fine, if you want we can just say it was a completely irrational stupid decision and Rafa's an idiot, I prefer to think he had a reason and logic behind it and am putting forward suggestions.

As you say, another 6 or 7 minutes was highly unliklley to contribute to an injury so that doesnt add up.
If he wanted to maintain the status quo, bringing on voronin for yossi was an unusual choice.
The only reason (and the reason he gave) was that Yossi was tired; perhaps, but on the evidence on the night, he didnt appear to be any more tired than a number of other l'pool players (and clearly about 50,000 fans felt the same).
Rafa is not an idiot, but he is prone to the occasional idiotic decision.

Mr Alan

Headshot wrote: »

how Voronin came on instead of babel, ill never understand that

Voronin keeps posession better than Babel tbh.

I didn't think Yossi should have come of, but if i was bringing on someone, it would have been Voronin.

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

Voronin keeps posession better than Babel tbh.

I didn't think Yossi should have come of, but if i was bringing on someone, it would have been Voronin.

jebus you must of not seen Voronin last night then

he couldnt even complete a simple pass out to insua i think it was

Mr Alan

yea, i remember that alright, but i am talking about in general.

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

Voronin keeps posession better than Babel tbh.

I didn't think Yossi should have come of, but if i was bringing on someone, it would have been Voronin.

But i know who's more likely to pop up with an equaliser/winner