Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

OPENROAD

Dave! wrote: »

I think this thread has ceased to be about the match and so no longer serves its purpose.

This is not the match thread though

JPA

Why has this thread become about fees and net spend and BS again?
There is a complete thread for that already made, http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500815&page=25

Headshot

Fromvert wrote: »

Well you know your self that Utd rarely disclose their fees (not a PLC so don't have to) so no I don't have an official link and you know that already.

But it was reported in a good few papers (yeah I know) that a fee was paid for the Tevez loan. What you read in the papers was good enough for you the last time I asked you for a link so that will have to be good enough for you now. :P

Well it depends on what papers you choose to believe (generally the ones that will suit your argument;)).

So for this one I choose to believe The Guardian, which says the initial outlay for both Anderson and Nani was £15m which could rise to £35m. So who knows what activates the add ons and whether or not they have been paid.

End of third paragraph

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/may/31/newsstory.sport10


Flimsy I know.

lol you know me well

I dont believe the news papers these days, just have a look at stats of the liverpool v man utd match total bs

need to take the newspapers with a pinch of salt

Fromvert

JPA wrote: »

Why has this thread become about fees and net spend and BS again?
There is a complete thread for that already made, http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500815&page=25

Every Liverpool thread seems to.

Headshot wrote: »

lol you know me well

I dont believe the news papers these days, just have a look at stats of the liverpool v man utd match total bs

need to take the newspapers with a pinch of salt

True those stats just didn't look right at all.

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

Progress ! The club given him whatever money he has had to buy whatever players he has purchased . Now all you have to accept is that only Chelsea and Man City have given their manager more money over the last six seasons and we're there.

Man United where up there until Ronaldo went.

How much did SAF spend this year?

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

well for example this year....

Players Out
Alonso £30m
Arbeloa £3.5m
Leto £3m
Hammill £500k
Hobbs £300k
Anderson £250k
Hyypia 0
Pennant 0
Total In £37.55m

Players In
Johnson £17m
Aquilani £17m
Kyrgiakos £1.5m

Total out £35.5m

profit of £2.05m

I wish you stop shifting from thread to thread ,
Heres my full list for the last three years in the proper spending thread, .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62712330&postcount=370

Liam O

K-9 wrote: »

Man United where up there until Ronaldo went.

How much did SAF spend this year?

17m odd on Valencia and 3m odd on Obertan. In January spent between 10 and 17m (depending on who you believe) on Tosic and Ljajic.

what's your point?

Dave!

OPENROAD wrote: »

This is not the match thread though

Touché

Damn multiple tabs

K-9

Liam O wrote: »

17m odd on Valencia and 3m odd on Obertan. In January spent between 10 and 17m (depending on who you believe) on Tosic and Ljajic.

what's your point?

So he has spent £30/37 Million. Fair enough.

builttospill

Yeah he definitely has to go after that performance :pac:

ntlbell

builttospill wrote: »

Yeah he definitely has to go after that performance :pac:

THERE IS NO CRISIS AT ANFIELD, WHAT CRISIS, YNWA

mike65

Give it a rest.

Kingdom

He put out a team comprised mainly of backups, backups that most on here have said weren't good enough. They were beaten, so nothing changes!
What LFC fans learned is that there's promise in Degen, Insua, Plessis, Ngog and Krygiakos (all of whom are still getting used to English football - no different to the Arsenal wunderkinds) and that Voronin, Spearing, and Babel will, more than likely never be good enough.

Whats going to have a major say on Rafa in my opinion, if he has that long, is what happens with the crop that are bubbling under, as I reckon he needs a high percentage of them, in relative terms, to break through to the first team.

The Muppet

Calm Down Calm Down.

The carling cup will be ours.

Thats a Fhact.

mike65

Fromvert

ntlbell wrote: »

THERE IS NO CRISIS AT ANFIELD, WHAT CRISIS, YNWA

The Muppet wrote: »

Calm Down Calm Down.

The carling cup will be ours.

Thats a Fhact.

Thats embarrassing.

Dave!

Funny, too

K-9

Dave! wrote: »

Funny, too

Funny and sad. Don't know who I'm laughing at more!

Sizzler

I think he should stay. His ability to rouse his team for one off games against bitter rivals and then lose to mid table mediocrity is unrivaled.

Keep at it Rafa, feck the doubters:)

Villain

Looks bad for him now, not only a bad result and some bans coming but he might be loosing the dressing room, Torres and Benayoun didn't look happy at all at been subbed. It looked to me like he put the champions league game ahead of today and the team don't agree

Mr Alan

losing the dressing room?! if he leaves, half the talent in the dressing won't be far off following him.

PHB

If Liverpool lose to Lyon, all they really imo realistically will have left is the FA Cup. If that's the case, I'd be amazed at the owners giving him another season, let alone any money to spend.

Mr Alan

becuase the americans have been pumping money in the last 2 seasons :rolleyes:

x in the city

I think the pool are being found out this season....!:rolleyes:

Chelsea will walk the title this year, as I predicted a few months ago.

PHB

Mr Alan wrote: »

becuase the americans have been pumping money in the last 2 seasons :rolleyes:

Yeh I was the one who was telling you all that they wouldn't when they first bloody took over the club.

Benetiz will get some money to spend next season, whether it be from imput from the owners or from player sales. Either way, somebody will be buying new players next summer. If things don't turn around quick, quick, it won't be Rafa.

TheDoc

I have to say what exactly is keeping him in the job, or making him such a legend. He won a champions league and another final. OK Now outside of that.

Has come close to a premier league title once?

Consistently throwing any chance away usually within the first half of the season due to just piss poor tactical errors.

Has a very poor and weak squad, not near contending level.

I can pick possibly 3-4 players from the liverpool team who would get into rival top4 teams. Torres, Gerrard, Reina, Yossi.

You go through the liverpool starting lineup and there is some weak and poor players...you go through the bench and fringe and you just hold your mouth open wide.

He is there 5 years now and has pretty much brought in nothing to improve the squad overall, buying players to use for 12-18 to selling them on at a loss.


He is clearly more motivated by the champions league. Evident by the substitution of Torres, Yossi and Kuyt on Saturday.

I'm sorry but a Champions league doesn't give you the right to being untouchable. Especially in the circumstances they won it.

It might actually be for the best that he leaves sooner rather then later, but I just dont know what manager would be put in his place. And they definitely wouldnt want his squad. : /

Handsome Bob

TheDoc wrote: »

He is there 5 years now and has pretty much brought in nothing to improve the squad overall, buying players to use for 12-18 to selling them on at a loss.

That for the most part is a lie, I'm not even going to bother.

~Rebel~

TheDoc wrote: »

Has a very poor and weak squad, not near contending level.

Virtually the same squad (Aqui for Alonso, Johnson for Arbeloa) that contended last year.

I can pick possibly 3-4 players from the liverpool team who would get into rival top4 teams. Torres, Gerrard, Reina, Yossi.

In terms of starting 11's, those guys plus Mascherano would be the picks alright. Not that bad a thing where half our starting team would replace a competitors, that indicates parity. also possibly Skrtel or Agger for Arsenal (though would be debatable)

In terms of squad, yes ours is probably the weakest of the top 4, but lets not get carried away, there would still easily be 10 or more players who would be in any of their squads.

He is there 5 years now and has pretty much brought in nothing to improve the squad overall, buying players to use for 12-18 to selling them on at a loss.

Ah come on...Keane falls into that bracket...I can't think of a single other player who does.

He is clearly more motivated by the champions league. Evident by the substitution of Torres, Yossi and Kuyt on Saturday.

I was absolutely gutted by Yossi being taken off. In the cold light of day i do however think we need to accept that we dont know the circumstances of whats going on at the club. We don't know how much may be riding on the club getting the money from reaching the knockout stages. For all we know, that money may be the only way of signing up the likes of Reina and Mascherano to new deals, or of being able to afford Torres and Gerrards wages. We are all aware the club is in dire straits financially so imo a little bit of leniency and understanding is required. Its a very tough job and there is pressure far beyond that just happens on the pitch on rafa's shoulders. We're in a position where decisions he makes affect the continuing viability of the club being able to at least try to keep up with the big boys.

It might actually be for the best that he leaves sooner rather then later, but I just dont know what manager would be put in his place. And they definitely wouldnt want his squad. : /

tbh under the broader circumstances of the moment, he is actually the exact man i'd want at the club. Someone who has a broader understanding of what LFC is all about and someone who only has the clubs best interests at heart. Someone who is willing to look like a bad guy because he makes the tough decisions in the interests of what he believes to be the greater good for the club. He may be wrong sometimes, but i would far prefer that to someone who could throw everything at short term success but with detrimental long term effects.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

losing the dressing room?! if he leaves, half the talent in the dressing won't be far off following him.

Like what happened when Ged left. Like what happened when Jose left Chelsea. Like when Sven left City.

Oh wait it didn't happen. In fact I would struggle to think of any top level manager whose sacking or quitting caused players to leave enmasse afterwards.


Torres went on record at the start of the season saying that managers and players come and go, and that he joined LFC for the club and not for any person, even his manager.

Gerrard used to call Ged the best manager he played under up until the last year or so, and he did not leave because Ged left.

Carragher was another that praised Ged to the heavens, so did Sami and neither of them left.

If Rafa goes, those players at the club now, on their big contracts will not be rushing out the door after him.

With any luck Rafa will turn things around and the whole arguement will be made moot.

TheDoc

Gulacsi - Loan (MTK)
Poloskei - Loan (MTK)
Degen - Free (Dortmund)
Dossena - 7m (Udinese)
Cavalieri - 3m (Palmeriras)
Weijl - Nominal (AZ)
Mascherano - 18m (West Ham / Shady Businessmen)
Ngog - 1.5m (PSG)
Keane - 20m (Spurs)
Skrtel - 6.5m (Zenit)
Mendy - Free (Murcia)
Insua - £1m (Boca)
Saric - £2m (Helfolge)
Buchtmann - Nominal (Dortmund

40m spent in 2008

Now most of them are not big signings, possibly squad players ( most of them young and probably have alot of "potential" )


There are some big money signings that went wayward.

Keane - 20m ( lasted less then a year?)
Morientes 6.3m ( lasted around the year mark if memory serves)
Vorinan ( dont know fee, but looks like Rafa wants him out asap) still plays him funnily enough
Babel 12m ( wont be there end of season)
Pennant 7m ( lasted about a year then went on loan)
Dossena 7m ( will be gone january or summer)

Now all are off the top of my head but I can picture the faces of many more.

Luis Garcia springs to mind, made famous for 2-3 high profile goals, but other then that did nothing but put on average performances. Left after 18 months I think.

The right back that came with him, played a handful of games to be shown the door.

That centre half they signed, lasted about a year.


He has spent big big money, and has little to show for it, expect for some average fringe players that may have potential.

You only have to look at the bench liverpool had at Fulham on Saturday and compare it with the benches of Arsenal Chelsea and united.

So instead of trying to be whippy and smart, why don't you bother, and try justify why what greatness this man has done for your club, in 5 years.

Top 4 fans are some of the most annoying and grinding people to have football related conversations with.

I'm open to correction and admitting I'm wrong, but atleast make an effort...

TheDoc

Rebel nice post.

I would however only ask as to what are your feelings as to why your squad similar to last year is not performing this year.

I am one for blaming players before managers oddly enough. But in liverpools case I can only put explanation down to the manager.

Kess73

TheDoc wrote: »

I have to say what exactly is keeping him in the job, or making him such a legend. He won a champions league and another final. OK Now outside of that.

Has come close to a premier league title once?

Consistently throwing any chance away usually within the first half of the season due to just piss poor tactical errors.

Has a very poor and weak squad, not near contending level.

I can pick possibly 3-4 players from the liverpool team who would get into rival top4 teams. Torres, Gerrard, Reina, Yossi.

You go through the liverpool starting lineup and there is some weak and poor players...you go through the bench and fringe and you just hold your mouth open wide.

He is there 5 years now and has pretty much brought in nothing to improve the squad overall, buying players to use for 12-18 to selling them on at a loss.


He is clearly more motivated by the champions league. Evident by the substitution of Torres, Yossi and Kuyt on Saturday.

I'm sorry but a Champions league doesn't give you the right to being untouchable. Especially in the circumstances they won it.

It might actually be for the best that he leaves sooner rather then later, but I just dont know what manager would be put in his place. And they definitely wouldnt want his squad. : /

Selling on players at a loss? That is something that can rarely be levelled against him. Since coming to the club he has a very good record of making a profit on players that he sold on after buying them. If you took a list of all the players he bought and then went on to sell, I guarantee that the net figure will show that he has made a sizeable profit.


As for having brought in nothing to improve the squad. Are you aware of what our squad was like in the five years before he came in? Back when even getting 70 points in a season was something we only did once in five years.

TheDoc

Kess73 wrote: »

Selling on players at a loss? That is something that can rarely be levelled against him. Since coming to the club he has a very good record of making a profit on players that he sold on after buying them. If you took a list of all the players he bought and then went on to sell, I guarantee that the net figure will show that he has made a sizeable profit.


As for having brought in nothing to improve the squad. Are you aware of what our squad was like in the five years before he came in? Back when even getting 70 points in a season was something we only did once in five years.

The loss part may have been exageration on my part, as I was thinking of the big moeny signigns that departed for alot less, however I do believe ( after some quick research) that he has been more then manageable with transfers in some cases.

Still baffled as to how he hasnt got the best from his big money signings ( besides Torres) yet gets great stuff from mid priced players

( Reina, Riera, etc)

I'm also waiting to see if Kuyt will ever play alongside Torres, and Benitez give one last dieing shot to Babel to start on a wing.

He was a hot Dutch prospect, whose confidence must be toilet bound now. Riera looks a solid enough player, and Yossi has great ability to tear in from the wings to be creative.

I'd love to see Kuyt playing a mroe central role, I was and still am a big fan of Dutch football, and he was a serious player up front. Wasnt a prolific goal scorer, but his worth ethic just got him knockdowns and assists, combined with a finisher like Torres, I'd only see a better output then kuyt currently on the right wing.

Kess73

TheDoc wrote: »

Gulacsi - Loan (MTK)
Poloskei - Loan (MTK)
Degen - Free (Dortmund)
Dossena - 7m (Udinese)
Cavalieri - 3m (Palmeriras)
Weijl - Nominal (AZ)
Mascherano - 18m (West Ham / Shady Businessmen)
Ngog - 1.5m (PSG)
Keane - 20m (Spurs)
Skrtel - 6.5m (Zenit)
Mendy - Free (Murcia)
Insua - £1m (Boca)
Saric - £2m (Helfolge)
Buchtmann - Nominal (Dortmund

40m spent in 2008

Now most of them are not big signings, possibly squad players ( most of them young and probably have alot of "potential" )


There are some big money signings that went wayward.

Keane - 20m ( lasted less then a year?)
Morientes 6.3m ( lasted around the year mark if memory serves)
Vorinan ( dont know fee, but looks like Rafa wants him out asap) still plays him funnily enoughBabel 12m ( wont be there end of season)
Pennant 7m ( lasted about a year then went on loan)
Dossena 7m ( will be gone january or summer)

Now all are off the top of my head but I can picture the faces of many more.

Luis Garcia springs to mind, made famous for 2-3 high profile goals, but other then that did nothing but put on average performances. Left after 18 months I think.
The right back that came with him, played a handful of games to be shown the door.

That centre half they signed, lasted about a year.


He has spent big big money, and has little to show for it, expect for some average fringe players that may have potential.

You only have to look at the bench liverpool had at Fulham on Saturday and compare it with the benches of Arsenal Chelsea and united.

So instead of trying to be whippy and smart, why don't you bother, and try justify why what greatness this man has done for your club, in 5 years.

Top 4 fans are some of the most annoying and grinding people to have football related conversations with.

I'm open to correction and admitting I'm wrong, but atleast make an effort...

Voronin was got on a free.

Garcia was with the club from 2004 to 2007, not 18 months and left because he had issues with his family being unable to settle. He went to Atletico in a deal that was linked with Torres coming the other way to us. Not a bad bit of business there.

Also Garcia was not just known for a few goals. Over the three seasons he was at the club, he maintained a ratio of a goal every four games. Pretty good for a player who played mostly out wide.


The centre back that only lasted a year or so? I presume you mean Mauricio Pellegrino who moved onto our coaching staff after he retired.

Or maybe you mean Gabriel Paletta who was bought for 2 million, did not settle and we sold on for 3.5 million.

The Muppet

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ah come on...Keane falls into that bracket...I can't think of a single other player who does.

Garcia, Morientas, Gonzales, Pennant, Kromkamp, (Not in the 12 to 18 mill bracket but Rafa signings that were sold at a loss)

Cisse is ?

~Rebel~

TheDoc wrote: »

Rebel nice post.

I would however only ask as to what are your feelings as to why your squad similar to last year is not performing this year.

I am one for blaming players before managers oddly enough. But in liverpools case I can only put explanation down to the manager.

No doubt about it they have been seriously underperforming at various times this season. I think there are a lot of reasons for this, the biggest being the uncertainty around the club.

Everyone at the club must have been one a massive high at the end of last season, being so very close to getting there. I can only assume they were all thinking this was the year, this was the summer the team would climb that final step. Instead we got uncertainty about our two starting midfielders and early optimism about the targets we were looking at (Lavezzi, Suarez, Silva), players that would add something special on top of the positions that needed natural replacements (CM and RB), only to see that we would in fact only be able to replace those leaving directly and add nothing whatsoever to kick on with.

Now, i don't think thats all there is, the continuing messing from the owners as well as the club appearing to be hawked around the middle east cant help either.

I don't think Rafa is infallible by any means, but nor do I think that replacing him would be the solution, and he definately does always have the best long terms interests of pool at heart.

TBH while the club remains in this intermediate state of limbo with the owners, I see it as being unlikely that everyone at the club can get together in solidarity and push towards the same goal. We don't need billionaire kingpins coming in throwing money around, we need a solid foundation, sound long term planning and for everyone involved at the club to be working in the best interests for the club rather then their own personal bank accounts.

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

Garcia, Morientas, Gonzales, Pennant, Kromkamp, (Not in the 12 to 18 mill bracket though) Cisse ?

that was kind of my point, that Keane is the only on in that bracket.

Cisse was estimated at between 9 and 11million, but I dont think it would be fair to include him anyway even if he was one of them. I dont have a problem with including him in a list of incoming and outgoings of Rafa's, but he was not picked as a purchase he wanted, nor did he have any input into the price paid.

Kess73

TheDoc wrote: »

The loss part may have been exageration on my part, as I was thinking of the big moeny signigns that departed for alot less, however I do believe ( after some quick research) that he has been more then manageable with transfers in some cases.

Still baffled as to how he hasnt got the best from his big money signings ( besides Torres) yet gets great stuff from mid priced players

( Reina, Riera, etc)

I'm also waiting to see if Kuyt will ever play alongside Torres, and Benitez give one last dieing shot to Babel to start on a wing.

He was a hot Dutch prospect, whose confidence must be toilet bound now. Riera looks a solid enough player, and Yossi has great ability to tear in from the wings to be creative.

I'd love to see Kuyt playing a mroe central role, I was and still am a big fan of Dutch football, and he was a serious player up front. Wasnt a prolific goal scorer, but his worth ethic just got him knockdowns and assists, combined with a finisher like Torres, I'd only see a better output then kuyt currently on the right wing.

More from Kuyt? The only winger that outscored him last season was Ronaldo.

Kuyt got 12 goals in the league and had a similar number of assists to his name in the league. Not bad for a player that you would like to see help out with assists.

And he was not prolific in Holland? 83 goals in 122 games says you did not pay much attention despite being a big fan of the Eredivisie.


Kuyt gave a much better return last year than any wide man at Chelsea or Arsenal, and did far better than the near 30 million pound Rooney.


Kuyt is very underated, and most of what he does seems to go unnoticed.


This season he is already on a good ratio of goals per games for a winger and the same for assists.

TheDoc

When i referred to better output from Kuyt, I'd hope to see it bring greater output to the team overall rather, not him specifically.

I'm not someone who can spout facts of the top of my head and I dont go search for them every 5 seconds. Statistics are fact though, but there is other things aswell.

For me liverpool dont look threatening enough when they go forward. Kuyt although a workhorse and probably statistically has a good return, does not operate like the new modern day winger. Using more muscle and power then clever penetrative movement to the bi line.

I'd also wonder where he scored his goals from last season. I'd imagine from set plays or from being in a central position.

He doesn't score free kicks and i doubt many of his goals were contributed to dashing runs or cutting inside and long range efforts.

Making me wonder why isn't he just played in a more central role. It what he did in Holland, its why he was bought and its what he is good at. There is alot more in Dirk Kuyt liverpool arnt exploiting.

Over 270 apperances in Hollands top league, had him in a central role scoring over 120 goals.

His over 100 or so appearances for liverpool hes scored something along the lines of 30.

Theres no doubting that is a good return. But we can only speculate what he could be getting playing in a more central role.

Kess73

TheDoc wrote: »

When i referred to better output from Kuyt, I'd hope to see it bring greater output to the team overall rather, not him specifically.

I'm not someone who can spout facts of the top of my head and I dont go search for them every 5 seconds. Statistics are fact though, but there is other things aswell.

For me liverpool dont look threatening enough when they go forward. Kuyt although a workhorse and probably statistically has a good return, does not operate like the new modern day winger. Using more muscle and power then clever penetrative movement to the bi line.

I'd also wonder where he scored his goals from last season. I'd imagine from set plays or from being in a central position.

He doesn't score free kicks and i doubt many of his goals were contributed to dashing runs or cutting inside and long range efforts.

Making me wonder why isn't he just played in a more central role. It what he did in Holland, its why he was bought and its what he is good at. There is alot more in Dirk Kuyt liverpool arnt exploiting.

Over 270 apperances in Hollands top league, had him in a central role scoring over 120 goals.

His over 100 or so appearances for liverpool hes scored something along the lines of 30.

Theres no doubting that is a good return. But we can only speculate what he could be getting playing in a more central role.

You don't watch Liverpool much if you think we score many goals from set plays.


Liverpool must be one of, if not the worst team in the premiership for scoring from set pieces, be it from corners or free kicks.

~Rebel~

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd also wonder where he scored his goals from last season. I'd imagine from set plays or from being in a central position.

This is where the beauty of Dirk is for me. Because of his workrate, he effectively does the job of nearly two men. When the ball is central or wide right, Kuyt will be out there as a winger, tacking back, making himself available, putting in crosses (and he does have a very good eye for a cross to be fair).

But when the ball is on the left side, Kuyt comes in center and plays as a striker. This causes hassle for both the CB's and the LB, the cb's have a new problem to worry about so Torres gets a little more room, while the LB is unsure of whether to track inside with him. If he does, it keeps Kuyt and Torres covered, but this allows Johnson and Gerrard to use the space vacated out wide. Not many players can do this much moving around but thanks to his engine he manages it.

K-9

TheDoc wrote: »

Gulacsi - Loan (MTK)
Poloskei - Loan (MTK)
Degen - Free (Dortmund)
Dossena - 7m (Udinese)
Cavalieri - 3m (Palmeriras)
Weijl - Nominal (AZ)
Mascherano - 18m (West Ham / Shady Businessmen)
Ngog - 1.5m (PSG)
Keane - 20m (Spurs)
Skrtel - 6.5m (Zenit)
Mendy - Free (Murcia)
Insua - £1m (Boca)
Saric - £2m (Helfolge)
Buchtmann - Nominal (Dortmund

40m spent in 2008

Now most of them are not big signings, possibly squad players ( most of them young and probably have alot of "potential" )


There are some big money signings that went wayward.

Keane - 20m ( lasted less then a year?)
Morientes 6.3m ( lasted around the year mark if memory serves)
Vorinan ( dont know fee, but looks like Rafa wants him out asap) still plays him funnily enough
Babel 12m ( wont be there end of season)
Pennant 7m ( lasted about a year then went on loan)
Dossena 7m ( will be gone january or summer)

Now all are off the top of my head but I can picture the faces of many more.

Luis Garcia springs to mind, made famous for 2-3 high profile goals, but other then that did nothing but put on average performances. Left after 18 months I think.

The right back that came with him, played a handful of games to be shown the door.

That centre half they signed, lasted about a year.


He has spent big big money, and has little to show for it, expect for some average fringe players that may have potential.

You only have to look at the bench liverpool had at Fulham on Saturday and compare it with the benches of Arsenal Chelsea and united.

So instead of trying to be whippy and smart, why don't you bother, and try justify why what greatness this man has done for your club, in 5 years.

Top 4 fans are some of the most annoying and grinding people to have football related conversations with.

I'm open to correction and admitting I'm wrong, but atleast make an effort...

Again, you'd need to compare that to other Top 4 managers. No point putting up those figures alone.

Torres, Mascherano and Johnson (early yet) where big money signings and have worked.

Benny, Alonso and Agger worked for medium sized money.

He's has had frees and small money transfers that have done well.

K-9

TheDoc wrote: »

You only have to look at the bench liverpool had at Fulham on Saturday and compare it with the benches of Arsenal Chelsea and united.

Just to quote this separately because it's important, it makes no sense comparing that bench with other Top 4 teams. That's what Ronnie Whelan did.

Take 11 first team and squad players out and then compare.

blackbetty69

Kess73 wrote: »

Voronin was got on a free.

Garcia was with the club from 2004 to 2007, not 18 months and left because he had issues with his family being unable to settle. He went to Atletico in a deal that was linked with Torres coming the other way to us. Not a bad bit of business there.

Also Garcia was not just known for a few goals. Over the three seasons he was at the club, he maintained a ratio of a goal every four games. Pretty good for a player who played mostly out wide.

couldnt agree more.. i can think of about 10 goals off the top of my head that he scored in crucial games like european games and a cracker in the merseyside derby in the 06/07 season

as for rafa, his days are numbered if he prioritises one competition over another. europe and the league are both as important as each other, but we want to see a league title more than a euro cup, so pressures on him on wednesday because of the substitutions he made on saturday to 'rest' the players

x in the city

Flogging, Alonso was a epic fail on Raffa's part. Although he did want to leave I believe.. but still.

They will struggle to finish 4th I reckon.

Massive gulf between Chelsea, United and surprisingly it has to be said, Arsenal and Liverpool at this stage.

Chelsea brushed aside Bolton at the weekend, I don't think they will get hammered by that score at home again this season.

Boggles

Kess73 wrote: »

More from Kuyt? The only winger that outscored him last season was Ronaldo.

He started 15 league games up front. It's informative just to call him a winger and gives the wrong impression.

I will repeat what I said a couple of months ago though, Kuyt was Liverpools best player last season.

SlickRic

x in the city wrote: »

Massive gulf between Chelsea, United and surprisingly it has to be said, Arsenal and Liverpool at this stage.

just to say, there is no 'gulf' between Arsenal and the other 2 at the moment. they'll be close.

Liverpool is another story at this moment in time, i'll agree with that.

Kev_ps3

x in the city wrote: »

Massive gulf between Chelsea, United and surprisingly it has to be said, Arsenal and Liverpool at this stage.

I disagree. Chelsea and Arsenal are the 2 in form teams at the moment. Utd are still playing poor and Pool are worse.

kida

Henry Winters take on it - spot on IMO

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/6480911/Henry-Winter-Rafael-Benitez-will-blame-everyone-but-himself-for-Liverpools-plight.html

"Virtually no one.'' This was a short sentence that sounded like a death sentence.

Of all the millions of words screamed and scribbled about Liverpool's present plight, these three from the stand-in captain, a loyal servant of the club, carry the most significance.

A keen student of the game and genuine managerial prospect one day, Carragher believes his team are lightweight upfront without Torres.

His verdict is partly a compliment to Liverpool's exceptional No 9, but also an implicit indictment of the understudies assembled by Rafael Benítez.

Blaming such individuals for being too poor (Andrei Voronin) or too raw (Ryan Babel, David Ngog) is pointless; culpability rests with Benítez for recruiting them while ignoring prodigal sons such as Emile Heskey and Michael Owen.

Following defeat to a Fulham side expertly organised and motivated by Roy Hodgson, Liverpool are now besieged by headlines shrieking that their title dream is in tatters, but this is no sudden development.

In August, few people outside Anfield considered Liverpool to have a squad comparable to those at Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge.

Benítez, as usual, will divert attention elsewhere. He will bemoan refereeing decisions, injuries, tardiness in the transfer market and the comic capers of the American co-owners.

He will even criticise "senior players'' such as Carragher and Steven Gerrard following the early-season loss to Aston Villa. One constant: Benítez never accepts responsibility himself.

That is why some people tire of the self-absorbed Spaniard. We've heard all the excuses before. We've seen the utter reliance on Gerrard, Torres and, for all his recent woes, Carragher.

Yet it is quite possible that Benítez, so good at the chess of the Champions League rather than the rollerball of the Premier League, can conjure up a victory over Lyons. But there will be another reverse, another storm. The occasional ray of sunshine piercing the gloom is not enough.

Liverpool can afford to sack Benítez. Compensation would be less than £5 million under the "mitigating the loss'' principle if he found employment, but no desire can be detected within the club for a regime change.

Besides, the two managers who would fit the Anfield bill, Fabio Capello and Jose Mourinho, are not available.

The impressive managing director, Christian Purslow, is not the type for knee-jerk reactions. But it is known around Anfield that Purslow has talked to Benítez about his style of management, notably his cold detachment from the players.

Sensible businesses plan for succession and any defenestration of Benítez should take place only in the close-season. Who knows? Benítez might win the FA Cup.

interesting he reckons it will only cost 5M to sack him

kida

at this stage
What would a succesful season for pool be?
What would need to happen for Rafa to be sacked? Talk of 3 more games.