Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

mayordenis

FearDark wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry, do you want me to work out the actual percentage for you, Im not paddy ****ing power work it out for yourself heres the table
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/standings/index.html
and im sure youve got a ****ing calculator.

Not really just thought your post was fairly useless.

x in the city

Alex Ferguson is sitting back sipping the finest wines now admiring Livepools demise I think.

Back to back wins over Man U means fluck all, Im sure at the start of the season Pool fans hoped for more bragging rights than that.....

At the end of the day, from a neutrals point of view. The squad at Pool is weak...

Ngog
El Zhar
Veronin

that guy with the long hair who looked like a porn star...

all useless

Mascherano is also gone down the drain since Alonso left IMO.

ntlbell

spockety wrote: »

According to what Liverpool fans? A laughable summary! But I expect no less, good man

it wasn't a summary.

it's why he's still there.

starbelgrade

FearDark wrote: »

With Man Utd stuttering in the prem so far i believe their in a bit of a false position there and its gotta be down to ourselves (Arsenal) and Chelsea.

Utd have stuttered through many a season & still came out on top.

FearDark

mayordenis wrote: »

Not really just thought your post was fairly useless.

Of course youd think that, your sore because your team just lost and are on the brink of falling apart. Seasons over for you mate.

spockety

ntlbell wrote: »

it wasn't a summary.

it's why he's still there.

He's still there for reasons that are far more complex than 90% of internet warriors would appear to understand. You are in that 90%.

ntlbell

spockety wrote: »

He's still there for reasons that are far more complex than 90% of internet warriors would appear to understand. You are in that 90%.

you're just to cool for school.

I'm off to read the guardian

kingshankly

off course rafa is to blame for shocking defending

ntlbell

kingshankly wrote: »

off course rafa is to blame for shocking defending

when it's 7 from 8 games?

does he not buy them?

train them?

pick them?

bring on an attacker when 1-0 up minutes to go away in the cl?

your right.

it's dem blasted defenders!

spockety

kingshankly wrote: »

off course rafa is to blame for shocking defending

Perhaps, perhaps not.

But is Rafael Benitez not also to be given credit for Liverpool's outstanding defensive record in general since he arrived at the club? How many golden gloves has Reina got at this stage?

mayordenis

I think even the most level headed fan, and I'm a huge rafa fan - I'll back him to the hilt has to say that some of the blame for the recent form is down to him,
plain and simple,
the recent form however is far from entirely his fault and his job should still be secure.

Mental Mickey

spockety wrote: »

Perhaps, perhaps not.

But is Rafael Benitez not also to be given credit for Liverpool's outstanding defensive record in general since he arrived at the club? How many golden gloves has Reina got at this stage?

How many trophies have we won since he's arrived? Have we won the Premiership since he arrived?? He's spent God knows how much money since he came, and has one very lucky win in the Champions League and a League Cup to show for it. Fair enough, he had to weed out some of Houllier's leftovers, but he's also brought in enough of his own choice of players.............a lot of whom have not been up to the task. He can use the fact that some of the team are ill and that they have injuries, but our back up players simply aren't good enough.

I think he'll be gone at the end of the season.

kingshankly

ntlbell wrote: »

when it's 7 from 8 games?

does he not buy them?

train them?

pick them?

bring on an attacker when 1-0 up minutes to go away in the cl?

your right.

it's dem blasted defenders!

if it wasnt for that particular bit of defending tonight we wouldnt be having this conversation,
i think rafa was right bringing on an attacker because we were looking comfortable and another goal would of put us ahead of lyon in the head to heads

ntlbell

kingshankly wrote: »

if it wasnt for that particular bit of defending tonight we wouldnt be having this conversation,
i think rafa was right bringing on an attacker because we were looking comfortable and another goal would of put us ahead of lyon in the head to heads

if reina hand't been hit by the ball, you might have lost 2-1

if that shot that went just wide didn't we wouldn't be talking about it

if if if if if if if

mayordenis

Mental Mickey wrote: »

How many trophies have we won since he's arrived? Have we won the Premiership since he arrived?? He's spent God knows how much money since he came, and has one very lucky win in the Champions League and a League Cup to show for it. Fair enough, he had to weed out some of Houllier's leftovers, but he's also brought in enough of his own choice of players.............a lot of whom have not been up to the task. He can use the fact that some of the team are ill and that they have injuries, but our back up players simply aren't good enough.

I think he'll be gone at the end of the season.

Luck me bollox.

And it was an FA cup, do you honestly consider yourself a liverpool fan?

ntlbell

Mental Mickey wrote: »

How many trophies have we won since he's arrived? Have we won the Premiership since he arrived?? He's spent God knows how much money since he came, and has one very lucky win in the Champions League and a League Cup to show for it. Fair enough, he had to weed out some of Houllier's leftovers, but he's also brought in enough of his own choice of players.............a lot of whom have not been up to the task. He can use the fact that some of the team are ill and that they have injuries, but our back up players simply aren't good enough.

I think he'll be gone at the end of the season.

who wants pl team titles when your keeper is winning golden gloves?

the 10% of non internet keyboard warriors.

starbelgrade

ntlbell wrote: »

if reina hand't been hit by the ball, you might have lost 2-1

if that shot that went just wide didn't we wouldn't be talking about it

if if if if if if if

If Liverpool had scored more goals, they'd have won!

spockety

Mental Mickey wrote: »

How many trophies have we won since he's arrived? Have we won the Premiership since he arrived?? He's spent God knows how much money since he came, and has one very lucky win in the Champions League and a League Cup to show for it. Fair enough, he had to weed out some of Houllier's leftovers, but he's also brought in enough of his own choice of players.............a lot of whom have not been up to the task. He can use the fact that some of the team are ill and that they have injuries, but our back up players simply aren't good enough.

I think he'll be gone at the end of the season.

Just like I'm sure Stephen Hawking would get incredibly frustrated and bored with me trying to debate aspects of Astrophysics with him, I am not going to bother my hole any more trying to take on people who don't understand why Rafa belongs at Liverpool and should be safe in his position. Anyone who does the research (transfers, wage bill, actual achievements, expected achievements, etc.) can only come to the conclusion that Rafa belongs. I believe that anyone who thinks differently, while entitled to an opinion, are not entitled to enter a debate with the truly enlightened who have gone to the trouble of researching.

I mean, for God's sake man, you claim that one of Rafa's achievements is a League Cup!

Hang your head, for you are in the same 90% as ntlbell.

Mental Mickey

ntlbell wrote: »

who wants pl team titles when your keeper is winning golden gloves?

the 10% of non internet keyboard warriors.

I think the majority of Liverpool fans would like us to win the Premiership soon

kingshankly

i agree rafa has made mistakes but jesus everything is going against us at the moment with injurys, late goals and beach balls etc,
looking at utd last night when a ball hits a fellas ass and goes in wish we could get some of that

ntlbell

spockety wrote: »

Just like I'm sure Stephen Hawking would get incredibly frustrated and bored with me trying to debate aspects of Astrophysics with him, I am not going to bother my hole any more trying to take on people who don't understand why Rafa belongs at Liverpool and should be safe in his position. Anyone who does the research (transfers, wage bill, actual achievements, expected achievements, etc.) can only come to the conclusion that Rafa belongs. I believe that anyone who thinks differently, while entitled to an opinion, are not entitled to enter a debate with the truly enlightened who have gone to the trouble of researching.

I mean, for God's sake man, you claim that one of Rafa's achievements in a League Cup!

Hang your head, for you are in the same 10% as ntlbell.

i'm in the 10% :eek:

i thought i was in the majority!

ntlbell

kingshankly wrote: »

i agree rafa has made mistakes but jesus everything is going against us at the moment with injurys, late goals and beach balls etc,
looking at utd last night when a ball hits a fellas ass and goes in wish we could get some of that

and robbed of two penos and hit thr bar.


just to even out the luck

the year is long, squads have to be able to deal with these things.

ntlbell

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I think the majority of Liverpool fans would like us to win the Premiership soon

not according to 90% of the fans

golden gloves are enough

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

not according to 90% of the fans

golden gloves are enough

What are you talking about? you're having this crazy little conversation with yourself.

Mental Mickey

ntlbell wrote: »

not according to 90% of the fans

golden gloves are enough

So you'd rather win golden glove awards rather than the Premiership?? That's the single funniest/dumbest thing I've read on this board - and that includes some of my posts!!!!

mada999

kingshankly wrote: »

i agree rafa has made mistakes but jesus everything is going against us at the moment with injurys, late goals and beach balls etc,
looking at utd last night when a ball hits a fellas ass and goes in wish we could get some of that

too true man.... as someone else said .... when it goes against ya it goes against ya!

Boggles

To answer the thread title question.

YES.

The Muppet

Mental Mickey wrote: »

So you'd rather win golden glove awards rather than the Premiership?? That's the single funniest/dumbest thing I've read on this board - and that includes some of my posts!!!!

You should read more of your own posts;)

I feel ntlbells sarcasm is a little lost on some here. I appreciate it though,

on Topic rafa is not done just quite yet.

Chucky the tree

I'm still shocked people actually bother replying to ntlbell. 90% of people seem to have figured out by now you just ignore but there's always 10% who just cant help it. Didn't want to leave out the %'s people had going there.

mayordenis

The Muppet wrote: »

You should read more of your own posts;)

I feel ntlbells sarcasm is a little lost on some here. I appreciate it though,

on Topic rafa is not done just quite yet.

No the sarcasm did not go over my head and I would say most others, but it's got to be delivered with a certain wit, it wasn't so it falls flat on it's face.

Outkast_IRE

I think just about everything that could go against us this season has gone against us !!!!
I dont want to see rafa gone not in the middle of a season , he deserves to finish out the season and see where we are at the end of it then make a well thought out decision about his future .
What im hoping is that we got our share of the bad luck early and will bounce back stronger from it and have a very strong second half of the season its early days yet.

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

No the sarcasm did not go over my head and I would say most others, but it's got to be delivered with a certain wit, it wasn't so it falls flat on it's face.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62853305&postcount=867

I lolled

Prufrock

Theres no point in sacking Rafa when he has that much time left on his contract. £20 mill to make him leave? Thats a lot of cash to throw down the drain.

But the main thing is to rest Torres. Let him get back to 100% and don't risk the long term health of your best striker for short term gain. If hes injured then he's injured and the other lads in your squad, reguardless of quality, will have to try and do the job.

flahavaj

The Muppet wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62853305&postcount=867

I lolled

Perfectly delivered with no little wit to boot.:pac:

everdead.ie

Luck is unreliable in football you have to make your own luck.

What let you down today was Kyrgiakos he isn't up to sctrach and whats more worrying is liverpool said they couldn't afford to buy Turner he was only 4 million!!!!

spockety

everdead.ie wrote: »

Luck is unreliable in football you have to make your own luck.

What let you down today was Kyrgiakos he isn't up to sctrach and whats more worrying is liverpool said they couldn't afford to buy Turner he was only 4 million!!!!

Yet Rafa takes the flak.

I can't believe how the owners get away with it in the opinion stakes. They should be crucified on a regular basis if people thought for half a second about what is really wrong at Liverpool.

Chucky the tree

everdead.ie wrote: »

Luck is unreliable in football you have to make your own luck.

What let you down today was Kyrgiakos he isn't up to sctrach and whats more worrying is liverpool said they couldn't afford to buy Turner he was only 4 million!!!!

£4m from the chest down maybe, sunderland paid a lot more then £4m for the full version.

everdead.ie

I dunno the ex-chairman says that he was 4 million with 1.2 million going to his former clubs this is possibly without add ons tho

The Muppet

spockety wrote: »

Yet Rafa takes the flak.

I can't believe how the owners get away with it in the opinion stakes. They should be crucified on a regular basis if people thought for half a second about what is really wrong at Liverpool.

what is wrong at liverpool is thet the squad is nowhere near as good as it should be . It depends where you lay the blame for that. I don't see how it's the owners fault tbh.

flahavaj

spockety wrote: »

Yet Rafa takes the flak.

I can't believe how the owners get away with it in the opinion stakes. They should be crucified on a regular basis if people thought for half a second about what is really wrong at Liverpool.

In fairness all you ever hear is Liverpool fans complaining about their owners.

Villain

I thought Whelan made one good point this evening but not sure if its true, were only 2 players of the team that won the Champions league 5 years ago Rafa signings?

Say what you like about the owners now but Rafa has bought plenty of players just a lot are were not to the standard of Liverpool

The Muppet

Villain wrote: »

I thought Whelan made one good point this evening but not sure if its true, were only 2 players of the team that won the Champions league 5 years ago Rafa signings?

Say what you like about the owners now but Rafa has bought plenty of players just a lot are were not to the standard of Liverpool

Garcia and alonso started, josemi was on the bench

jank

Rafa should stay... as the latest run of bad results are just comical and fans that back him to the hilt even more so.

UnitedIrishman

kingshankly wrote: »

i agree rafa has made mistakes but jesus everything is going against us at the moment with injurys, late goals and beach balls etc,
looking at utd last night when a ball hits a fellas ass and goes in wish we could get some of that

In fairness, CSKA should have had two men sent off (Aldonin's tackle on Scholes was shocking), a penalty or two (for the tackle on Fletcher and a handball by the fullback), and all in all we weren't getting the rub of the green last night bar the late goal.

As someone earlier said, you make your own luck. You can eliminate the chance of bad luck happening by how you set yourselves. What I can't understand is why Liverpool didn't shut up shop, drop bodies back and take the 1-0? It's the CL; you need the win; you have one defender who is as slow as a turtle and another on a yellow. Drop 10 men behind the ball and let Lyon bomb balls into the penalty area if they want. Kyrgiakos, Agger and Carragher would be well able to deal with that for five minutes. When Lyon scored it was if Liverpool were stretched out the pitch. That shouldn't happen.

whatawaster

i've asked this time and time again and i've yet to get a satisfactory answer:

Could someone put forward someone as a possible replacement for Rafa, who meets the following criterium:

1. Would be a realistic appointment
2. Would be affordable
3. Has a proven track record of winning major trophies
4. Has a proven track record of winning trophies on a very limited budget
5. You think it's likely they'll turn Liverpool into title challengers/winners on that budget.

Someone give me a name.

Hiddink/Capello/Ferguson/Wenger are all out on point 1.
Mourinho on 2.
O'Neill certainly doesn't come in under number 5 or imo on 3 or 4 either

Whatever you think about whether Rafa fulfulls 5, unless you are sure his replacement will there is Zero point in getting rid. Essentially paying off millions in the hope that his successor will be a miracle worker (very unlikely)

Anyone got some names?

UnitedIrishman

whatawaster wrote: »

i've asked this time and time again and i've yet to get a satisfactory answer:

Could someone put forward someone as a possible replacement for Rafa, who meets the following criterium:

1. Would be a realistic appointment
2. Would be affordable
3. Has a proven track record of winning major trophies
4. Has a proven track record of winning trophies on a very limited budget
5. You think it's likely they'll turn Liverpool into title challengers/winners on that budget.

Someone give me a name.

Hiddink/Capello/Ferguson/Wenger are all out on point 1.
Mourinho on 2.
O'Neill certainly doesn't come in under number 5 or imo on 3 or 4 either

Whatever you think about whether Rafa fulfulls 5, unless you are sure his replacement will there is Zero point in getting rid. Essentially paying off millions in the hope that his successor will be a miracle worker (very unlikely)

Anyone got some names?

1) Why does it always have to be a manager at the top of the ladder? 2) Rafa isn't exactly cheap either 3) Barca, Arsenal, Juventus, Milan, are all clubs with managers who had little or no proven track record arriving into the club.

I'm not starting an argument or trying to rise Liverpool fans, but it seems unless Jesus Christ himself floats down from heaven and takes charge of the club - they think nobody is big enough to manage their club or wouldn't bring something different to the fold?

Rafa did a good job and definitely 100% should remain as manager until the end of the season, but there has to be an evaluation and deep thought into where things are going next summer. Liverpool fans surely won't settle for being second (or fourth best) year on end.

whatawaster

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

1) Why does it always have to be a manager at the top of the ladder? 2) Rafa isn't exactly cheap either 3) Barca, Arsenal, Juventus, Milan, are all clubs with managers who had little or no proven track record arriving into the club.

I'm not starting an argument or trying to rise Liverpool fans, but it seems unless Jesus Christ himself floats down from heaven and takes charge of the club - they think nobody is big enough to manage their club or wouldn't bring something different to the fold?

Rafa did a good job and definitely 100% should remain as manager until the end of the season, but there has to be an evaluation and deep thought into where things are going next summer. Liverpool fans surely won't settle for being second (or fourth best) year on end.

because if we want to go from being a top 4 club to a title winning one in the hardest league to win in world football then we'll need someone special.
Rafa isn't cheap, but he is where he is and if he's replaced it will cost however much to terminate his contract (up to 20m) and possibly buy his replacement out of theirs.

I don't want to settle for being 2nd, 4th or 20th. Of course i want to win the league.
But for people to expect, nay demand, that Liverpool win the league with the 5th most expensive squad and 5th highest wage bill is tough on the manager
Hell, even last years challenge looks like an overachievement in those terms.
It's simply Liverpool's history and reputation that's creating expectations that our current standing/situation can't match

starbelgrade

whatawaster wrote: »

i've asked this time and time again and i've yet to get a satisfactory answer:

Could someone put forward someone as a possible replacement for Rafa, who meets the following criterium:

1. Would be a realistic appointment
2. Would be affordable
3. Has a proven track record of winning major trophies
4. Has a proven track record of winning trophies on a very limited budget
5. You think it's likely they'll turn Liverpool into title challengers/winners on that budget.

I'm sick of hearing the BS about Rafa not having the money to spend on players - in his 5 year tenure, he has spent €224 million on players, bought a stupid amount of them & only a handful were of any use.

His problem is that he doesn't invest in quality.

OK, he's recieved €109 million in fees, but that's still a net spend of €115 million. In the same period, Ferguson's net spend was €104 million, so you simply CAN'T blame a lack of funds for his failures.

Blame what you like, but NOT lack of funding for transfers.

So, I will exlude 4 & 5 in my answer as they are pointless criteria & go for Ottmar Hitzfeld, Otto Rehhagel (as a short term gap filler) or Avram Grant (budget option).

flahavaj

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

1) Why does it always have to be a manager at the top of the ladder? 2) Rafa isn't exactly cheap either 3) Barca, Arsenal, Juventus, Milan, are all clubs with managers who had little or no proven track record arriving into the club.

Hows that working out for Milan especially and Juve?:pac:;)

whatawaster

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm sick of hearing the BS about Rafa not having the money to spend on players - in his 5 year tenure, he has spent €224 million on players, bought a stupid amount of them & only a handful were of any use.

His problem is that he doesn't invest in quality.

OK, he's recieved €109 million in fees, but that's still a net spend of €115 million. In the same period, Ferguson's net spend was €104 million, so you simply CAN'T blame a lack of funds for his failures.

Blame what you like, but NOT lack of funding for transfers.

So, I will exlude 4 & 5 in my answer as they are pointless criteria & go for Ottmar Hitzfeld, Otto Rehhagel (as a short term gap filler) or Avram Grant (budget option).

His net spend in 6 summers is 85 million, or 14 million a year.
Less than Martin O'Neill in 4 years. Less than Spurs in that time. Less than City and Chelsea. Not much more than Sunderland.
The net spend was slightly less than Ferguson's in the same period until they sold Ronaldo