Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

mirwillbeback

Mr Alan wrote: »

Will we finish in the top 4? almost certainly.

fancy a wager ?
:eek:

grenache

Gerrard is the driving force behind Liverpool. Torres is the main goalscorer. Take either of them out and they're half a side, take both out and their nothing better than Villa or Everton. And that's the truth of it.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

this must be the fifth or sixth similar thread about liverpool in the last couple of seasons.

simple answer is: no.

Liverpool as a club, are ****ing broke. This is the reason we are struggling, i'd imagine at a guess that we've spent less than 95% of the teams in the league this year, far less than the teams around us, as well as the teams that are hoping to break into the top 4 in the main. Yet people think its title or bust for Liverpool. Foolish. We have one of the best managers in Europe & some of the top players in the world, so personally, i think, despite the poor form at the minute, we'll pull it together & push on this season.

Will we win the league? probably not.
Will we finish in the top 4? almost certainly.

Is Rafa finished, my answer to this would be simple, if there is any top manager in the world who'd be happy to come in, work with our incompetent owners & have no money to spend, please name them.....

or again, since some people seem to think our squad is ****e & we have to have torres & gerrard to be anyway decent(who had about 14 games together last season & Torres missed long chunks), if there is anyone who with that squad, could set points totals records for 2nd place team and challenge for a leage title, again name the manager...

personally, i still think Rafa is doing a great job with the scant resources available to him, and losing to Villa(who we're led to believe are top 4 contenders), Chelsea (strongest team in the league), Sunderland (form team in the league who drew with Utd last week & were shocking unlucky no win) & Spurs away (again top 4 contenders), is not gonna make me think any different.

Personally i think all the top 4 are gonna struggle at times this season because the league has become far more competitive, this is already evidenced by Utd struggling at times & losing to Burnley & Chelsea losing to Wigan & Villa.

80 points will be there or there abouts for the league title this year imo, and that's of 114 that are available, would work out at losing 10 games & drawing 2, or losing 7 games & drawing 5 or something.

is it possible that Liverpool will lose another 3 games this season & draw 3 & still be in with a shout for the title? yes. imo, it is.

but, things need to get better fast.

Was it wise then to spend nearly £18m on Glen Johnson?

kryogen

OPENROAD wrote: »

Was it wise then to spend nearly £18m on Glen Johnson?

no! boom next question!!

ah to be fair, the end of the season is the only time that can be fairly judged, but i was delighted when they did buy him cause i had a feeling it would make their defence less solid!

Mr Alan

OPENROAD wrote: »

Was it wise then to spend nearly £18m on Glen Johnson?

absolutely, been about our best player so far this year. outstanding buy.

wat happened to your other question?! i was off hunting for figures?

OPENROAD

kryogen wrote: »

no! boom next question!!

ah to be fair, the end of the season is the only time that can be fairly judged, but i was delighted when they did buy him cause i had a feeling it would make their defence less solid!

Thats the thing I don't think you can say Liverpool are broke, they just possibly have not spent the money in a prudent manner, as you say you can't judge the guy until the end of the season, but looking at some of Liverpools signings over the last few years they certainly have spent well on transfers(not a sign of a club that are broke) if not very prudently.


Just looking at Arsenal over the last two years, we have generated nearly
£40m actually our figures over the last six years make some reading :eek:

Nulty

Winning is 90% psychological and Liverpool are the perfect example of that!

Chelsea got Mourinho and won the league that year. Sure they bought new players but those players aren't that much better than liverpools (with a couple of exceptions)

Rafa's got his chance and he wont be able to change Liverpools mindset now. He should give the opportunity tosomeone else.

I layed Liverpool heavily pre-season and I laugh!:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

absolutely, been about our best player so far this year. outstanding buy.

wat happened to your other question?! i was off hunting for figures?

Just found it

http://transferleague.co.uk/

Liam O

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is the reason we are struggling, i'd imagine at a guess that we've spent less than 95% of the teams in the league this year, far less than the teams around us

false. So Liverpool have spent far less than United, Chelsea and Arsenal? Not going to go get the facts but I'm fairly sure they have spent around the same as all those on players.

Oh wait, you mean the teams around them yeah probably spent less than Sunderland. Wouldn't be so sure about Stoke and Burnley though...

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

absolutely, been about our best player so far this year. outstanding buy.

wat happened to your other question?! i was off hunting for figures?

do you really think he has been your best player? and an outstanding buy? he was ever so slightly over priced dont you think? i mean does he really improve the team as a whole? he is very suspect defensively, this isnt just about today, this is about his whole career! defending isnt what he is known for. not having a go particularly, dont get overly defensive


but to say he was an outstanding buy is just wrong

the right back position was hardly the priority position this summer for your lot! Could have kept the adequate Arbeloa and spent that 18 million on another position, such as striker? right winger? left winger?

Nulty

OPENROAD wrote: »

Just found it

http://transferleague.co.uk/

So West Ham have made a million in profit in the transfer market for every year since 92'....thats good.....thats Harry 'Del Boy' Redknapp

Mr Alan

ok, well those figures are slightly wrong, its actually a profit this year, but you still get the idea and the Keane fee from last season was between 14 & 16, the higher end being paid if they stayed up, which they did.

so in the last couple of seasons Rafa has a net spend of about 4m or so.

Mr Alan

kryogen wrote: »

the right back position was hardly the priority position this summer for your lot! Could have kept the adequate Arbeloa and spent that 18 million on another position, such as striker? right winger? left winger?

actually, it was priority considering Arbeloa wanted to leave. a new RB had to be bought.

this Johnson is ****e defensively stuff is nonsense, he hasnt put a foot wrong for us.

18m is over-priced, but when you consider the figures being paid for other players, it doesn't seem it tbh.

don't think you'd find a single Liverpool fan who would say he has been anything other than outstanding for us.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

actually, it was priority considering Arbeloa wanted to leave. a new RB had to be bought.

this Johnson is ****e defensively stuff is nonsense, he hasnt put a foot wrong for us.

18m is over-priced, but when you consider the figures being paid for other players, it doesn't seem it tbh.

don't think you'd find a single Liverpool fan who would say he has been anything other than outstanding for us.

ok, you saying he has not put a foot wrong for you this season has shown that you cant or wont be objective about it so i wont pursue this about johnson any more

just so we are clear, never said he was ****e so dont put words in my mouth!

Mr Alan

you said he is very suspect defensively. he really hasn't made a bad mistake this season for us that comes into my mind, if you can think of one, please fill me in, if he has it still wouldnt negate my point, as a buy for us this season, he has been exceptional, find me a Liverpool fan that disagrees.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

you said he is very suspect defensively.

since he has been at Liverpool, he hasn't been. simples.

so without making me go look for written proof of this would you refuse to concede that Johnson being out of position due to him being forward and attacking, has forced Carragher or whoever over to try cover for him and in doing so leaving holes in the centre of defence that other teams have managed to exploit?

and is it a totally unrelated matter that the liverpool defence which has been so hard to break down since Benitez arrival is now showing signs of frailty? is this absolutely in no way connected to Johnson coming in and unbalancing the defence by pushing forward so much?

EDIT: nice post edit, must have been quick too!! your new position is much easier to defend

bUILDERtHEbOB

There are no problems,we'll probably still finish fourth this season and have an Arabian prince to buy a load of players next summer, or we'll come fifth and expectations will drop and some 'fans' will give up and support City or someone.

You could argue though that over the next couple of weeks our team will improve MASSIVELY since Lucas and Carra are championship players who have as much use as a birds nest in a bowl of soup and Aquilani and Agger are at least UEFA cup team standard, so with a UEFA cup team plus a two man team we could turn into some kind of champions league team.

Without trying to sound like some kind of paranoid conspiracy theorist everyone seems to want Rafa to fail, including some Liverpool fans. Over his tenure as manager he's consistently been almost like the number one target to pundits and journalists, whether it be to do with zonal marking or rotation or whatever and that type of **** seeps through to fans who start believing this rubbish even if it's proved to the contrary by facts that prove them wrong, which become unbelievably frustrating for some Liverpool fans, which in turn makes them easy targets for WUMS, so stuff become even more ridiculous and sensationalist and we get threads like this, calling for his head after nine games, 9.

Mr Alan

i actually disagree that the reason we've been poor defensively this season (Chelsea at SB were the first goals we've conceded from open play this season iirc) is that they've been covering for Johnson, in fact defensively only-he's been our best defender.

the problem with us defensively has been that Carragher has been very poor & skrtel & agger have been injured.

Mr Alan

bUILDERtHEbOB wrote: »

calling for his head after nine games, 9.

5 of which were won.

3 of them coming in at 14-1 to Liverpool.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

i actually disagree that the reason we've been poor defensively this season (Chelsea at SB were the first goals we've conceded from open play this season iirc) is that they've been covering for Johnson, in fact defensively only-he's been our best defender.

the problem with us defensively has been that Carragher has been very poor & skrtel & agger have been injured.

i forgot how hard this was.....

if you want to believe he is flawless then fair enough. he doesnt ever do anything wrong, is never caught out of position, doesnt ever give the ball away etc..... im off to bed!

best of luck!

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

5 of which were won.

3 of them coming in at 14-1 to Liverpool.

oh jesus. before i go tell me you are not now going to take the position that liverpools start to the season is a good one? is it ok to have lost 4 out of 9 cause you ave won 5? ffs

and again...night!

Mr Alan

you say he is poor defensively.

i inform you that has been very good for us defensively.

you say no, he keeps getting caught out of position.

i point out that all our goals up until last week were conceded from set pieces.

yet somehow, you still think you're right?

Johnson may well be caught out defensively (in fact, think there was a CL goal when he was too narrow), but in the league, so far, he has been spot on.

Mr Alan

mirwillbeback wrote: »

fancy a wager ?
:eek:

yep.

pm me when you're sober.

jank

Liverpool will NOT win the title and will struggle to come in the top 4. Man City look very very good this year and they are my tip for a top 4 position.

ElaElaElano

LZ5by5 wrote: »

How do you reckon Man City would handle losing Adebayor, Bellamy, Ireland, and Robinho?

We go third if we win later today, Adebayor has missed three games, Robinho has missed five, Ireland has missed two and been off colour all season, I'll give you Bellamy. If they were all out at once, Santa Cruz, Petrov, de Jong and Weiss would come in.

So pretty well I reckon!

As for Benítez, silly as it may sound I question how much desire he has to win the league. There have been occasions where he'd rest players at the weekend to ensure their fitness for a European game and obviously one Champions League title plus one final versus no league titles would add some credence to the idea. Overall I think he's a cup manager. Exceptional tactically over two legs, as he's proved time and time again but over the course of a season he finds it harder.

I certainly wouldn't be sacking him even at that- £30million to buy two quality backup players for Torres and Gerrard in January would be a better idea.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd imagine at a guess that we've spent less than 95% of the teams in the league this year, far less than the teams around us

of the teams not riddled with undiscloseds:

Man City Net Spend this year: £96,000,000
Aston Villa Net Spend this year: £24,450,000
Birmingham City Net Spend this year: £18,000,000
Chelsea Net Spend this year: £13,500,000
Sunderland Net Spend this year: £5,750,000
Spurs Net Spend this year: -£3,500,000
West Ham Net Spend this year: £3,000,000
Liverpool Net Spend this year: £950,000
Everton Net Spend this year: -£2,000,000
Blackburn Rovers Net Spend this year: -£15,548,000
Portsmouth Net Spend this year: -£25,500,000
Arsenal Net Spend this year: -£31,000,000
Man Utd Net Spend this year: -£66,000,000

The Muppet

Liverpool are not dead an buried yet but they can not afford to lose any more games particulaly against the other title hopefuls. United , Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Villa.

Rafa IMO is a flawed genius. He can get a team to perform well above teh quality of their sum parts as he did in the title run in last year, but he is too stubborn to admit when he is wrong and make appropriate changes.

I believe the yanks are just waiting for their chance to get rid of him and another trophyless season will give them the excuse to do so. IMO the reason for their lack of transfer activity in the last two seasons is that the yanks have lost faith in his transfer dealings and they are holding onto thier cash to fund a new manager. Someone has a sig a quote from tomkins valuing the liverpool team at 78 million in a recent match. For me that demonstrates the flaw in Rafa's liverpool when you consider the money he has spent over the last five years.

That's unlikely to be very popular here but I think it's pretty spot on.

200motels

Rafa out I say, he's a joke and this is not a knee jerk reaction I've been saying this for the past few years, we'll never win the league under him, he's bought too many bad players, and any manager that says Lucas is a good player needs there head examined as he's the worst player I've ever seen.

Bandit12

200motels wrote: »

Rafa out I say, he's a joke and this is not a knee jerk reaction I've been saying this for the past few years, we'll never win the league under him, he's bought too many bad players, and any manager that says Lucas is a good player needs there head examined as he's the worst player I've ever seen.

Yes your right he is "the worst player you've ever seen"... Sweet jesus :rolleyes:

Headshot

Krap

Next week should be fun !

Johnny Utah

As Dunphy once said; "Benitez is a clown, Bill." I concur.

mike65

Johnny Utah wrote: »

As Dunphy once said; "Benitez is a clown, Bill." I concur.

As Benitez didn't say once but shirley would have if he only knew he existed - "Dunphy is a clown, Gary"

Thanx 4 The Fish

What Benitez actually would have said, had he known Dunphy even existed was

"Dunphy, isn;t that the lad who hasn't got the courgae of his convictions. So much so that when he said he would quit if Liverpool won the CL and Liverpool kept their side of the bargain, he welched."

mormank

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Personally, I think if they lose any more games that aren't against a top side, Rafa will be sacked and deservedly so.

Liverpools problem over the last who knows how many seasons has been dropping points against weaker sides and they're still doing it.

They need someone new in charge to change how they play.

ok im gonna quote this so i can show you that you were wrong later..easier than arguing.

mormank

200motels wrote: »

Rafa out I say, he's a joke and this is not a knee jerk reaction I've been saying this for the past few years, we'll never win the league under him, he's bought too many bad players, and any manager that says Lucas is a good player needs there head examined as he's the worst player I've ever seen.

i think i will quote this one as an example of the utter tripe and sensationalism that is constantly on this site!

i think personally people are reading too much into the four losses. would people think that we were still in the title race if we just lost one but drew 3. but then think that we were out of it if we lost to utd next week?? as if we beat utd next week we will have the same amount of points as in the example just given with 3 draws and a win...

Kirnsy

raven136 wrote: »

Come seasons end we will probably have the top scorer in the league in Torres

Drogba will beat him I reckon. Drogba's scored consistently so far while Torres has been in bursts, sure for Spain he's not scored in their qualifying.

raven136 wrote: »

and the most effective wide player in Kuyt,

i think arshavin might have something to say about that along with giggs, young and even johnson is a more effective winger

raven136 wrote: »

the best attacking midfielder

again arshavin could take change that. gerrard has started off slowly this season(along with the rest of liverpool) and may find it difficult to establish the same kind of relationship with aquiliani and lucas as he did with alonso[/QUOTE]

raven136 wrote: »

the usual defence once Carra finds form and Agger full fitness.

its more a matter of time before agger and skrtl find form and fitness. carragher is struggling big time this season.

raven136 wrote: »

an awful long way to go and we are about 2 points less well off the United at the same time last year.

you're no manchester utd

(who had berbatov, rooney, ronaldo, giggs, tevez, ferdinand, vidic....etc)

massive difference.

kryogen

Helix wrote: »

of the teams not riddled with undiscloseds:

Man City Net Spend this year: £96,000,000
Aston Villa Net Spend this year: £24,450,000
Birmingham City Net Spend this year: £18,000,000
Chelsea Net Spend this year: £13,500,000
Sunderland Net Spend this year: £5,750,000
Spurs Net Spend this year: -£3,500,000
West Ham Net Spend this year: £3,000,000
Liverpool Net Spend this year: £950,000
Everton Net Spend this year: -£2,000,000
Blackburn Rovers Net Spend this year: -£15,548,000
Portsmouth Net Spend this year: -£25,500,000
Arsenal Net Spend this year: -£31,000,000
Man Utd Net Spend this year: -£66,000,000

fair to say they have spent more then 5% of the teams then

Mr Alan

that figure is wrong. also its leaving out quite a lot of teams, the likes of stoke etc. who spent considerably more than us.

Players Out
Alonso £30m
Arbeloa £3.5m
Leto £3m
Hammill £500k
Hobbs £300k (Received £400k but there was a sell-on clause)
Anderson £250k
Hyypia 0
Pennant 0
Total In £37.55m

Players In
Johnson £17m
Aquilani £17m
Kyrgiakos £2m
Chris Mavinga - minimal training compensation
Aaron King - minimal training compensation
Jesus Fernandez - minimal training compensation
Total out £36m

Net Profit £1.55m

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

that figure is wrong. also its leaving out quite a lot of teams, the likes of stoke etc. who spent considerably more than us.

regardless, your original statement was incorrect pal!

Mr Alan

the statement was just a rough idea to put across a point.

that the investment has not been forthcoming from our owners, in fact, its been non-existant.

kryogen

thats a fair enough point, but your not the only club in this situation!

i dont want to get into a debate about the prudence or lact there of in terms of Benitez signings so i will take my leave of this thread now!

Melion

Benitez and his billions spent again. Never gets old, this rubbish

fkt

To the OP,

How do you think we managed to beat Man Utd at home last season with our two man team missing? How did we beat Chelsea away with one of our two man team missing?

How can you decide after nine games how the league will finish? Do you not think that's very knee-jerk considering we still have who could be a key player to come in(Aquilani).

If Liverpool are a two man team, what are Man Utd? Have they been setting the world alight this season? Who are their Gerrard and Torres? And who scores for them beyond that? Are you telling me Ryan Giggs is better than Yossi Benayoun? And I don't care what he achieved last century. There incredibley poor standard will show come February/March.

Liverpool are going through a bad patch at the moment. Doesn't every team?

fkt

Did you all right off Mr.Ferguson after five years of failure with Man Utd?

Oh wait you probably didn't follow "soccer" back then. Soccer AM hadn't started then. New breed sheep really piss me off.

The Sparrow

Ok. Here we go.

fkt wrote: »

To the OP,

How do you think we managed to beat Man Utd at home last season with our two man team missing? How did we beat Chelsea away with one of our two man team missing?

You had a big three outfield players last year. Gerard, Torres and Alonso. So if Gerard or Torres were missing then you still had Alonso pulling the strings. And Mascherano was a much better player with Alonso beside him. Plus Carragher wasn't the problem that he is this year. And sometimes poorer teams just beat better teams such as Burnley beating Man Utd this year. Doesn't mean anything and if a Burnley fan was trying to big up his team it wouldn't make much sense to say "How did we beat Man Utd then?" because they just did and it means nothing in the long run.

fkt wrote: »

How can you decide after nine games how the league will finish? Do you not think that's very knee-jerk considering we still have who could be a key player to come in(Aquilani).

Well you obviously can't know for sure. But you have to look at the indicators and at the moment all the indicators are that Liverpool are unlikely to win the title this year.

fkt wrote: »

If Liverpool are a two man team, what are Man Utd? Have they been setting the world alight this season? Who are their Gerrard and Torres? And who scores for them beyond that? Are you telling me Ryan Giggs is better than Yossi Benayoun? And I don't care what he achieved last century. There incredibley poor standard will show come February/March.

Just like Man Utd's "incredibly poor standard" becomes evident every Feb/ March? Bottom line is that Man Utd are on top of the table and have lost one game. Liverpool have lost four and they will be in freefall unless they beat Utd on Sunday. Giggs is better than Benayoun this year. No question.

And as for who are Utd's Gerard and Torres? Utd don't have a Gerard or Torres because they don't just rely on a couple of players. Unlike Liverpool they also have more than one good striker.

fkt wrote: »

Liverpool are going through a bad patch at the moment. Doesn't every team?

Yes. And they get criticised for it. Just like Liverpool are getting criticised for having a terrible start to the season now. What's the problem??

fkt wrote: »

Oh wait you probably didn't follow "soccer" back then. Soccer AM hadn't started then. New breed sheep really piss me off.

Bla, Bla, Bla. Get over yourself. New or old breed sheep who don't have a grasp of reality piss me off.

Otis Driftwood

Irregardless of Liverpool's ropey start they will still be there or there abouts come the end of the season.

However Ive said it before and I will say it again,I do not believe they will ever win the league while Benitez is at the helm.

Last season was their big chance and they couldnt do it so this year will be,IMO,no different,but for anyone to write them off and resign them to a 6th or 7th place finish is wholly naive.

stevoslice

if anybody on here thinks that Villa, Spurs, Sunderland and Chelsea will not take points off the other title challengers then they are extremely mistaken.
I don't have to argue the case for chelsea, obviously, sunderland have now won 4 of 9 points against the big 4, villa have 6pts from 6, or 7 from 9 including citeh, and spurs will compete this year. there is another 29 games to go, and at the end of that i expect it will be a very close league.

Don't get me wrong, things aren't great at the moment, and benitez does have to bear the responsibility, but i honestly believe we can still win the league this year, although saying that if we don't, then maybe it might be time for him to move on.

stevoslice

The Sparrow wrote: »

You had a big three outfield players last year.

Correction, we only had a 2 man team, alonso was never any good till we sold him to real, then he was the one player that would have won us the league this year

The Sparrow wrote: »

And as for who are Utd's Gerard and Torres? Utd don't have a Gerard or Torres because they don't just rely on a couple of players. Unlike Liverpool they also have more than one good striker.

and tell me if you didn't have rooney and carrick vs sunderland, would ye have got the draw? (probably as youse didn't have to play against a balloon.)

The Sparrow

thebhoy wrote: »

Correction, we only had a 2 man team, alonso was never any good till we sold him to real, then he was the one player that would have won us the league this year



and tell me if you didn't have rooney and carrick vs sunderland, would ye have got the draw? (probably as youse didn't have to play against a balloon.)

You don't think that Alonso was good for Liverpool last year?? Seriously??:eek:

And yeah Man Utd have proven that they are not reliant on one or two players.