Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Whether he goes or stays depends on the yanks true feelings about him. If they see him as a manager that will move the club forward he will stay. If on the other hand they have been biding their time since the Klinsman incident for the right time to get rid of him he will go and go soon. Opinion amoung the general liverpool fans is divided if results improve, those wavering may get fully behind him again and make it difficult for them to get rid. If he is going to be sacked I'd say it will be before the new year, He's aleady recieved the vote of confidence from the owners.

I don't care whether he stays or goes. He's very good in some aspects of his management and and very poor in others IMO as I said previously a flawed genius.

If they’d been biding their time since the Klinsmann incident he would not have had a new contract last season. Since then Rafa’s relationship with Hicks in particular has supposedly been very good.
It looks like Gillett wants a way out, and whether or not that leaves Hicks as the main man I don’t know.
But I think Hicks is smart enough to realize that Liverpool finishing top 4 each season will keep the money coming in, keep the loans paid and keep the clubs value up. I genuinely don’t think it really bothers him if we win the league or not, because to get to that stage the increase in sponsorship, merchandise etc would probably be offset by the transfer spend needed to get there.

I’m still very confident we’ll get 4th. We’re on our worst run in years and none of City/Villa/Spurs have been able to open up a gap on us. We’re still big favourites to come at least 4th.
We know when all our players are fit we’re better than those teams and are capable of runs of wins they are simply not.
Unless we are dropped by City/Spurs/Villa and it stays that way after Christmas – I, every sensible Liverpool fan and the board will surely see Rafa as our best hope of finishing in the CL places. And that is SO crucial for the future of the club.

Headshot

whatawaster wrote: »

Can I ask why?

Is it because you assume anyone half-competent who comes in will be able to win the league with no money to spend?

because he's doing a good job at liverpool

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

because he's doing a good job at liverpool

A good job in your opinion to what end?

I mean, I think Ferguson is doing an excellent job at United. But I’d love for him to walk into the training ground in the morning to find the locks have been changed and his parking space filled.

BolBill

ntlbell wrote: »

But, but, who's better?

Your signature is hilarious mate. Tevez isn't playing in the Champions League this season but when Owen scores 7 Champions League goals United then he will have surpassed young Carlos in the goals stakes in Europe while playing for Man U..

Calling Owen a legend is also laughable then to add insult to injury you quote Eamonn Dunphy who back in 2005 said he'd retire if Liverpool won the Champions League !!!!.

You have no clue and I find your signature both inaccurate and offensive to Liverpool fans and call on the Mods to ask you to leave this thread.

Mitch Connor

BolBill wrote: »

You have no clue and I find your signature both inaccurate and offensive to Liverpool fans and call on the Mods to ask you to leave this thread.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHA

Boggles

BolBill wrote: »

You have no clue and I find your signature both inaccurate and offensive to Liverpool fans and call on the Mods to ask you to leave this thread.

Lolz, fooking hilarious.

How do I get coffee stains off the monitor? :pac:

Prufrock

kida wrote: »

apparently it would only cost 5M to sack him

Really? Still a waste of 5 mill you could invest in something else.

Boggles wrote:

Heard that too, he could also do the honourable thing and resign.

He'd never leave that kind of money behind.

The real acid test for Liverpool will be Man City. They have to prove they're a top 4 team against the best of the rest. Also they can't let the gap between them and ManC get any bigger in terms of points. It will be a big game for Rafa and Liverpool.

Obviously this is assuming that Liverpool manage to get 3 points on Monday. :pac:

BolBill wrote:

You have no clue and I find your signature both inaccurate and offensive to Liverpool fans and call on the Mods to ask you to leave this thread.

lmao

Mitch Connor

Ithink Liverpool and Rafa's future is linked with Real Madrid. If they get rid of Pelligrini (or whatever the guys name actually is) I would imagine that Rafa will be a front runner. Would Liverpool let him go there for no compo? Seems unlikely on the face of it, but if the Yanks wanted to sack him, they could save themselves money (and make Rafa more appealing to Real) by not asking for compensation.

spockety

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Ithink Liverpool and Rafa's future is linked with Real Madrid. If they get rid of Pelligrini (or whatever the guys name actually is) I would imagine that Rafa will be a front runner. Would Liverpool let him go there for no compo? Seems unlikely on the face of it, but if the Yanks wanted to sack him, they could save themselves money (and make Rafa more appealing to Real) by not asking for compensation.

Benitez to Real Madrid? This idea , yet again?

Well at least I suppose if he went there it would mean Alonso would come on the market and we can take him back.

whatawaster

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Ithink Liverpool and Rafa's future is linked with Real Madrid. If they get rid of Pelligrini (or whatever the guys name actually is) I would imagine that Rafa will be a front runner. Would Liverpool let him go there for no compo? Seems unlikely on the face of it, but if the Yanks wanted to sack him, they could save themselves money (and make Rafa more appealing to Real) by not asking for compensation.

Never give Real Madrid anything for free; they’ll eventually pay for it.
Can’t see it to be honest. Perez wouldn’t like Rafa and Rafa wouldn’t like Perez.

Mitch Connor

spockety wrote: »

Benitez to Real Madrid? This idea , yet again?

Well at least I suppose if he went there it would mean Alonso would come on the market and we can take him back.

Is it not something that has been rumoured? I'm not syaing it would def happen, but if Real sack the current coach, I think there is a chance they could go for Rafa, especially if he doesn't cost much in terms of compensation. They could only replace the current manager with an unattached manager, or someone currently managing a foreign team - they couldn't hire a manager currently managing a team in spain (think that is the case, remember reading that was the rule in Spain when they hired Ramos last season)

BolBill

BolBill wrote: »

You have no clue and I find your signature both inaccurate and offensive to Liverpool fans and call on the Mods to ask you to leave this thread.

Ahahahahahaha! Maybe you should "call for" a vote of no confidence in him! Post of the day!

kida

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahahahahahaha! Maybe you should "call for" a vote of no confidence in him! Post of the day!

FYP - Post of the year!

Warper

I honestly cant see why Madrid would want him. Pellegrini should be given time to prove himself and surely Wenger is their dream ticket. I mean during Rafa's reign at Liverpool, if you take out that poxy year where they won the cup treble with fairydust, what have they won?? They are further behind the top teams in the League now than when he took over and thats a fact.

whatawaster

Warper wrote: »

I honestly cant see why Madrid would want him. Pellegrini should be given time to prove himself and surely Wenger is their dream ticket. I mean during Rafa's reign at Liverpool, if you take out that poxy year where they won the cup treble with fairydust, what have they won?? They are further behind the top teams in the League now than when he took over and thats a fact.

Under Houllier they averaged 67 points in the league.
Under Rafa its 76, 78 if you discount the first season (shambles of a squad, huge injury crisis, Rafa’s first season in England)
78 points won Wenger his first league title.
So why post something you’re clearly uninformed on?

Last season we finished 4 points behind United, and if United weren’t so mentally strong they might have crumbled such was the pressure we put on them.
You can’t then turn around and say at the start of November of the next season that we are further behind than when he took over. It’s nonsense.

jank

This all reminds me of the last daya of a certain French man at Liverpool. Fans backing him to the hilt even though he had brought the club as far as he could.
Instead of 4 points behind United and that CL we had treble in 2001 as "proof" that Liverpool are on the way back..


Sorry but there is NO way back for Rafa now. He will be gone either during this season or at the end of the season. No doubt names will start being put forward very soon and the press will start leaking info on what Hicks and Gillet want to do with him. This will all play out like a Shakespearian tragedy. At least wake up to the fact guys.

Lose against Man City and it could happen then. They will beat Birmingham easily enough.

kida

whatawaster wrote: »

Under Houllier they averaged 67 points in the league.
Under Rafa its 76, 78 if you discount the first season (shambles of a squad, huge injury crisis, Rafa’s first season in England)
78 points won Wenger his first league title.
So why post something you’re clearly uninformed on?

Last season we finished 4 points behind United, and if United weren’t so mentally strong they might have crumbled such was the pressure we put on them.
You can’t then turn around and say at the start of November of the next season that we are further behind than when he took over. It’s nonsense.

stop living in the past - this season has been a disaster thus far ans has shown no sign of impoving - the past counts for zip

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

stop living in the past - this season has been a disaster thus far ans has shown no sign of impoving - the past counts for zip

Maybe not but I’d rather we made decisions on the clubs future based on the past 5 years (where it has been mostly progress, sometimes slow, but mostly progress nonetheless) rather than the past 5 weeks.

kida

jank wrote: »

They will beat Birmingham easily enough.

you mean they should beat Birmingham easily enough.
This team seems determined to mess up as much as possible. Can easily see a 0-0 especially as I can see Torres not playing again until the city game.

kida

whatawaster wrote: »

Maybe not but I’d rather we made decisions on the clubs future based on the past 5 years (where it has been mostly progress, sometimes slow, but mostly progress nonetheless) rather than the past 5 weeks.

So if they keep losing its ok becuase they were better in the last few seasons

whatawaster

jank wrote: »

This all reminds me of the last daya of a certain French man at Liverpool. Fans backing him to the hilt even though he had brought the club as far as he could.
Instead of 4 points behind United and that CL we had treble in 2001 as "proof" that Liverpool are on the way back..

Doesn’t remind me of the Houllier days at all. I was very fond of GH, he did a lot of good for the club, but long before he was sacked I’d given up on him. I remember the first game I ever went to at Anfield was against Arsenal around 2002/2003 I think. We were destroyed – played off the park, only for Heskey to score a last minute equalizer. I didn’t leave the ground that day relieved, happy or hopeful. I was completely dejected, pessimistic and fed up.

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

So if they keep losing its ok becuase they were better in the last few seasons

Obviously not, there will obviously be a breaking point. If it’s unlikely we’re going to get 4th I can see something being done. But to be honest, in the wake of some appalling Liverpool results City (who I think are most likely to get 4th if we don’t) have not been able to stand up and be counted (with easy enough fixtures I’d add).

Berti Vogts

kida wrote: »

So if they keep losing its ok becuase they were better in the last few seasons

No, because some people are able to look over a longer time span than a 10 match stretch when there is an injury crisis!

kida

Possibilities wrote: »

No, because some people are able to look over a longer time span than a 10 match stretch when there is an injury crisis!

after over 5 years in charge the squad should be good enough to get thru an injury crisis
BTW
Gerrard and Johnson were all you were missing last night that have b een first choice this season (don't mention aguaJesus)

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

after over 5 years in charge the squad should be good enough to get thru an injury crisis
BTW
Gerrard and Johnson were all you were missing last night that have b een first choice this season (don't mention aguaJesus)

And last night we were by far the better team, created the most chances and should have won the match.
After 5 years our first XI is as good as anyone’s in the league in my opinion, and many people, including United fans have said as much here.
That was unthinkable 5 years ago.
The rest of our squad is too thin. It requires imo 20m in investment on a central defender, a central midfielder and a striker. All as backup. That’s investment that should have come in the last two seasons, but didn’t.
Then a policy of buying one or two first 11 players a season going forward.

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

Under Houllier they averaged 67 points in the league.
Under Rafa its 76, 78 if you discount the first season (shambles of a squad, huge injury crisis, Rafa’s first season in England)
78 points won Wenger his first league title.
So why post something you’re clearly uninformed on?

Last season we finished 4 points behind United, and if United weren’t so mentally strong they might have crumbled such was the pressure we put on them.
You can’t then turn around and say at the start of November of the next season that we are further behind than when he took over. It’s nonsense.

I thought Warper was being sarcastic - one of us has taken that post up wrong. Wonder who it is!

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

And last night we were by far the better team, created the most chances and should have won the match.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

Liverpool needed to win. Lyon played for the draw. Lyon won out, end of.

Europa league ITV 4 Thursdays.

Freq 10.758 V 22000

Tune it in and get over it.

whatawaster wrote: »

After 5 years our first XI is as good as anyone’s in the league in my opinion, and many people, including United fans have said as much here.

Nah, too many average hot and cold limited players.

kida

whatawaster wrote: »

And last night we were by far the better team, created the most chances and should have won the match.
After 5 years our first XI is as good as anyone’s in the league in my opinion, and many people, including United fans have said as much here.
That was unthinkable 5 years ago.
The rest of our squad is too thin. It requires imo 20m in investment on a central defender, a central midfielder and a striker. All as backup. That’s investment that should have come in the last two seasons, but didn’t.
Then a policy of buying one or two first 11 players a season going forward.

guess what - you didn't win
not going into the squad crap again

eZe^

Off Topic, but - I still find it funny that Man Utd fans are the ones that constantly harp on about how Rooney is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than just goals, he does everything for the team. But when comparing Owen to Tevez (a player who prides himself JUST as much as Rooney on his work rate, etc) the only thing you use to back up the argument is goals. Wreaks of hypocrisy... Nice one lads.


Liverpool are in possibly their biggest predicament since Rafa arrived at the club, it'll be interesting to see if they can band together and go back to their 'giant killing' ways.

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

Gerrard and Johnson were all you were missing last night that have b een first choice this season (don't mention aguaJesus)

it's no excuse, but just as a point of fact, we were also missing skrtel and aurelio.

aquilani also is first choice, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

also a fully fit torres (as anyone could see).

again, our squad should've been enough to cope, i won't argue that.

BolBill

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahahahahahaha! Maybe you should "call for" a vote of no confidence in him! Post of the day!

Great example to be setting there Mr.Moderator ......

Kingdom

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

I still don't get your point though? O'Shea, Fletch (almost forgot him), Brown, Gibson and Evans have several hundred appearances between them. They're massive part of our squad.

As regards the others - All teams buy players at 15/16/17 from the continent and elsewhere to bring into their academy. Liverpool have Pacheco, Valle, Nemeth, who are all from other sides. The question was whether Liverpool had players coming through the ranks and the answer is that they haven't had. Things are looking brighter of course but there hasn't been anything for years.

I don't post much here but enjoying your posts UI.

Xavi6

BolBill wrote: »

Great example to be setting there Mr.Moderator ......

He's not a moderator of this forum so is the same as your good self.

If you have a problem with a post or posters behaviour then report it.

daveyboy_1ie

eZe^ wrote: »

Wreaks of hypocrisy... Nice one lads.

Not at all. Tevez, for the two seasons he was at united cost us £15M+ (£5M on loan fee and £10M wages) and scored 19 league goals in those two seasons, playing in 63 games. This works out at nearly £800,000 per goal, which is hardly value for money. This is why Owen will always make more sense financially.

Owen will score as many goals as Tevez if we play him, the problem is we hardly will and he accepts that as a challenge (one 90 minute game all season so far). Tevez would not and had already made up his mind halfway through last season to go to City.

Then he started the proaganda machine (claims of not being treated well, never signing for Liverpool as he loves us fans so much etc.) and when it came down to it was exposed as at the very least being 'economical with the truth'. If he was honest it would not have alientated himself from united fans and we would have said 'fair enough'. But his carry on has hardly been classy and so we see him for what he is, a mercenary. Maybe they all are, just better at playing the game?

But when it comes right down to it, for the price Owen cost (nothing) and the wages we pay him compared to other strikers on offer then he is better option than Tevez who would have cost £60 million over the next five years, wheras at most Owen will cost £3 million for every yeat plus whatever his goal bonus is, so far he scored 4 for us which is hardly blistering form but its not unlike Tezez last season by any means.

eZe^

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Not at all. Tevez, for the two seasons he was at united cost us £15M+ (£5M on loan fee and £10M wages) and scored 19 league goals in those two seasons, playing in 63 games. This works out at nearly £800,000 per goal, which is hardly value for money. This is why Owen will always make more sense financially.

Owen will score as many goals as Tevez if we play him, the problem is we hardly will and he accepts that as a challenge (one 90 minute game all season so far). Tevez would not and had already made up his mind halfway through last season to go to City.

Then he started the proaganda machine (claims of not being treated well, never signing for Liverpool as he loves us fans so much etc.) and when it came down to it was exposed as at the very least being 'economical with the truth'. If he was honest it would not have alientated himself from united fans and we would have said 'fair enough'. But his carry on has hardly been classy and so we see him for what he is, a mercenary. Maybe they all are, just better at playing the game?

But when it comes right down to it, for the price Owen cost (nothing) and the wages we pay him compared to other strikers on offer then he is better option than Tevez who would have cost £60 million over the next five years, wheras at most Owen will cost £3 million for every yeat plus whatever his goal bonus is, so far he scored 4 for us which is hardly blistering form but its not unlike Tezez last season by any means.

Here, have you even read my post? The ONLY argument you have used there to back up Owen vs Tevez is goals. And all I'm saying is, that's well and good if you are consistent in your analysis of players. But it's completely hypocritical to do that, while saying things like 'Rooney is much more than just a goal scorer, he works so hard for the team', when infact, Tevez does the exact same thing, he is a striker that is about more than just goals.


So either analyse every striker on just goals, or when getting into a debate about Owen vs Tevez, try taking into account the other facets of play that Tevez contributes to outside of goal scoring. It's unbelievably how hypocritical United fans become on this issue, going as far as putting goal scoring banners in their signature (Tevez vs Owen), and then saying Rooney is the best striker in the world because he does things OTHER than score goals, it's pathetic.

Anyway, it's completely off topic and I apologise to people looking for Liverpool replies. If you want to continue the argument you can PM me.

PHB

Rooney offers lots to the team. Tevez didn't. Chasing down a ball constantly isn't as great a thing when half the time its lost because of your first touch. Running after everything isn't offering lots to the team. Rooney doesn't just offer chasing down. He offers assists, movement, quick intricate passing, drive, and so much more. To compare what he offers to a team to what Tevez offers is just laughable.

Tevez is a striker who does defence from the front. Great. But Rooney does that, and about a billion more things. So when Rooney doesn't score goals, I can go, well he's the heartbeat of the team. But when Tevez doesn't score goals, he offers very little. Hell, in terms of build up play, I think I prefer Owen, which is saying something, as I think they are both poor at it.

---

I think Liverpool's season is now over. They are out of the CL, out of the league cup. They are too far behind in the league to win it. If there was one team, maybe they'd make up the points, but they are 9 points behind the leaders, and 7 points behind second and third. Even if Liverpool turned it around, and there is absolutely no indication that they will, they'd have to go straight to being a top class team and put together a huge run of wins. Personaly, I think it aint gona happen.

As for what happens to Rafa, I don't know what G&H are going to do, but I'd imagine their confidence is fairly shaky with him now. Personally, I'm happy for him to stay since I don't think he's ever going to win them the league.

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

As for what happens to Rafa, I don't know what G&H are going to do, but I'd imagine their confidence is fairly shaky with him now. Personally, I'm happy for him to stay since I don't think he's ever going to win them the league.

Do you think anyone could/should win the league with Liverpool, given that we spend less than Villa, Spurs, City and Chelsea, are competing with two manager who are amongst the half dozen best in English football history and we are a mess both structurally and financially.

rossie1977

Warper wrote: »

They are further behind the top teams in the League now than when he took over and thats a fact.

what??

2003/04 season
arsenal pld:38 Pts: 90
chelsea pld:38 Pts:79
man utd pld:38 Pts:75
liverpool pld:38 Pts:58

thats 32 points they finished behind arsenal in 2004 before he arrived, stop talking rubbish

Mitch Connor

eZe^ wrote: »

Off Topic, but - I still find it funny that Man Utd fans are the ones that constantly harp on about how Rooney is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than just goals, he does everything for the team. But when comparing Owen to Tevez (a player who prides himself JUST as much as Rooney on his work rate, etc) the only thing you use to back up the argument is goals. Wreaks of hypocrisy... Nice one lads.

EDIT: What PHB said, to be honest.

Bandit12

kida wrote: »

stop living in the past - this season has been a disaster thus far ans has shown no sign of impoving - the past counts for zip

So by that thinking Wenger should also be sacked. He's done diddly squat over the last five years.

kida

Bandit12 wrote: »

So by that thinking Wenger should also be sacked. He's done diddly squat over the last five years.

What logic did you use to work that out? Have Arsenal this season been a disaster?
Defend your own mess on its merits, not by comparisons

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

What logic did you use to work that out? Have Arsenal this season been a disaster?
Defend your own mess on its merits, not by comparisons

well, to be fair to that comparison, if you think Rafa should be sacked on the basis of the last 5 years not winning the league, then you should think Wenger should be sacked on the same basis.

just to say, i believe wenger should never ever be sacked.

kida

SlickRic wrote: »

well, to be fair to that comparison, if you think Rafa should be sacked on the basis of the last 5 years not winning the league, then you should think Wenger should be sacked on the same basis.

just to say, i believe wenger should never ever be sacked.

I think he should be sacked based on this season, his record over the last few seasons has no bearings on this season.

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

I think he should be sacked based on this season, his record over the last few seasons has no bearings on this season.

attitudes like that are disgraceful & sum up whats wrong with football. undoing 5 years good work because of 5 or 6 games. Ridiculous.

Utd fan right? presuming you think Ferguson should have been sacked after a few years in the job too.

lpool2k05

kida wrote: »

I think he should be sacked based on this season, his record over the last few seasons has no bearings on this season.

So the answer is to sack him??Then everything will be back to normal and we will start to win more games?

Every manager goes through a bad patch like wenger last year!!

Why do people dislike Rafa so much?

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

I think he should be sacked based on this season, his record over the last few seasons has no bearings on this season.

fine so.

lots of managers would be out of a job in that world.

including Fergie. i mean he went 3 years without winning anything recently enough.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

attitudes like that are disgraceful & sum up whats wrong with football. undoing 5 years good work because of 5 or 6 games. Ridiculous.

Utd fan right? presuming you think Ferguson should have been sacked after a few years in the job too.

Discuss on its own merits, Liverpool themselves have undone any good work from previous seasons.

Lets see what the owners think, IMO Rafa will not be manager of pool come 1 Jan 2010.

kida

SlickRic wrote: »

fine so.

lots of managers would be out of a job in that world.

including Fergie. i mean he went 3 years without winning anything recently enough.

Has he ever had such a bad run?

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

Discuss on its own merits, Liverpool themselves have undone any good work from previous seasons.

what unbelievable nonsense.

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

Discuss on its own merits, Liverpool themselves have undone any good work from previous seasons.

Lets see what the owners think, IMO Rafa will not be manager of pool come 1 Jan 2010.

this just doesn't hold up in any shape or form.

if the owners think he should go, that doesn't make it right or justify your opinion.

fergie should have been sacked if you use the criteria you're using. as should wenger. perfectly apt to say that to try and illustrate how misplaced your point is.