Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

fine so.

lots of managers would be out of a job in that world.

including Fergie. i mean he went 3 years without winning anything recently enough.

When was that? Sometime in the 1980's?

2004/05 is the only season recently where we ended up with nothing.

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

When was that?

to be honest i've not researched it, but i read the other day on a forum (i can't remember which) that there were 3 years he went without winning.

maybe i'm wrong.

i did say it flippantly in response.

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

Has he ever had such a bad run?

he did finish in 11th the season after finishing 2nd and spending record sums of money in the transfer market in his first few seasons.

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

to be honest i've not researched it, but i read the other day on a forum (i can't remember which) that there were 3 years he went without winning.

maybe i'm wrong.

i did say it flippantly in response.

There were 3 seasons that weren't up to standard.

In 2004 we only won the FA Cup, 2005 won nothing and 2006 just the League Cup.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

what unbelievable nonsense.

Whats unbelievable about it - you are as good as out of all tropies on the 5th Nov

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

There were 3 seasons that weren't up to standard.

In 2004 we only won the FA Cup, 2005 won nothing and 2006 just the League Cup.

was genuinely just about to post that up.

fair enough.

i swore it was a utd fan who said it too!

the wenger comparison holds though

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

Whats unbelievable about it - you are as good as out of all tropies on the 5th Nov

that's not what's unbelievable.

the fact you would sack someone on the basis of one bad run of games, in the midst of an injury crisis, with no recent investment from the owners, is what's unbelievable.

Rockee

I think Rafa is off to the happy house. The paragraph below is from rte.ie after last nights match.


Asked about his own feelings and the pressure he is under, Benitez said: 'It is simple for me to keep my head high, and that is by watching the players on the pitch and seeing their performances, hearing the fans singing after the game because they know that we are improving and getting better.'

:eek:

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

that's not what's unbelievable.

the fact you would sack someone on the basis of one bad run of games, in the midst of an injury crisis, with no recent investment from the owners, is what's unbelievable.

Who are all these injured players?

According to PhysioRoom.....(http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php?SKEY=3b03b20f65af9b15bdf953ff58262af5) Liverpool have less injured players than Arsenal, who are doing pretty well. (also, United have just one less - and United have received no investment from the owners either)

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch Connor
There were 3 seasons that weren't up to standard.

In 2004 we only won the FA Cup, 2005 won nothing and 2006 just the League Cup.

was genuinely just about to post that up.

fair enough.

i swore it was a utd fan who said it too!

the wenger comparison holds though

We had a very average squad around that time, Bellion, kleberson. DjembaX2 to name a few that were not MU quality.


Interestingly enough that's the time Rafa took over at Pool, if you insist on making comparisons, compare the progression of each club since that time.

Mental Mickey

Rockee wrote: »

I think Rafa is off to the happy house. The paragraph below is from rte.ie after last nights match.


Asked about his own feelings and the pressure he is under, Benitez said: 'It is simple for me to keep my head high, and that is by watching the players on the pitch and seeing their performances, hearing the fans singing after the game because they know that we are improving and getting better.'

:eek:

And trying to quote YNWA to gee up the fans smacks of desperation imo.

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

Whats unbelievable about it - you are as good as out of all tropies on the 5th Nov

FA cup hasn't even started yet?

If we do get knocked out of the CL..... Uefa Cup?

Hardly ideal alright, but in fairness. when a club hasn't won in the league for 20 years, its hardly league title or bust. Nor when a manager & team as proven in Europe as Rafas Liverpool underperform in one season in the tournament is it to be classed as a sacking offence.

Also worth noting, if we win on Monday night in Anfield against Birmingham & Utd lose to Chelsea, there is 4 points between the two sides. With 26 odd games left of the season, incl a game against eachother.

Spud83

kida wrote: »

Whats unbelievable about it - you are as good as out of all tropies on the 5th Nov

Ah now the FA Cup hasn't even started for the Premier League clubs yet :mad:

Spud83

Mr Alan wrote: »

FA cup hasn't even started yet?

If we do get knocked out of the CL..... Uefa Cup?

Hardly ideal alright, but in fairness. when a club hasn't won in the league for 20 years, its hardly league title or bust. Nor when a manager & team as proven in Europe as Rafas Liverpool underperform in one season in the tournament is it to be classed as a sacking offence.

Also worth noting, if we win on Monday night in Anfield against Birmingham & Utd lose to Chelsea, there is 4 points between the two sides. With 26 odd games left of the season, incl a game against eachother.

Why are you worried about the points difference to United? Surely you should be worried about the points difference to the league leaders?

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

FA cup hasn't even started yet?

If we do get knocked out of the CL..... Uefa Cup?

Hardly ideal alright, but in fairness. when a club hasn't won in the league for 20 years, its hardly league title or bust. Nor when a manager & team as proven in Europe as Rafas Liverpool underperform in one season in the tournament is it to be classed as a sacking offence.

Also worth noting, if we win on Monday night in Anfield against Birmingham & Utd lose to Chelsea, there is 4 points between the two sides. With 26 odd games left of the season, incl a game against eachother.

And if United win and Liverpool lose there'll be 10 points between us after just 12 or so games. Maths is fun. (though your scenario is more likely, and Fergie would be given more slack based on 3 back to back titles and two CL final appearances in the last two seasons)

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Who are all these injured players?

According to PhysioRoom.....(http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php?SKEY=3b03b20f65af9b15bdf953ff58262af5) Liverpool have less injured players than Arsenal, who are doing pretty well. (also, United have just one less)

how many are key players for arsenal? Cesc, VP, Gallas, Arshavin and Vermaelen, they're key players, are all fit.

believe it or not, i made that point yesterday about arsenal's injury crisis being worse than ours and that our squad should be able to cope. i do agree with this to an extent.

but at the end of the day we've an injured Stevie, half-fit Torres, injured Johnson, Skrtel, half-fit Agger, injured Riera, half-fit Aquilani. so there is an injury 'crisis' (for want of a better word).

now is not the time to sack him.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

We had a very average squad around that time, Bellion, kleberson. DjembaX2 to name a few that were not MU quality.


Interestingly enough that's the time Rafa took over at Pool, if you insist on making comparisons, compare the progression of each club since that time.

Well that season (03/04) you finished 17 points ahead of Liverpool.
You were 4 ahead at the end of last season.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

And trying to quote YNWA to gee up the fans smacks of desperation imo.

He doesn't need to gee up the fans. Despite the fact we've all recognised the mistakes he's made this season, he still has the support of the overwhelming majority of Liverpool fans who still sing his name loudly at every game, recognise the progress over the last 5 years (which can't just be undone in a bad couple of months) and realise there is no better managerial alternative out there.

Mr Alan

i'm talking to a Utd fan, who presumably thinks his side are favourites for the title, just pointing out despite the massive slump we're going through, the teams ahead haven't pulled away to the extent people seem to think.

CHD

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm talking to a Utd fan, who presumably thinks his side are favourites for the title, just pointing out despite the massive slump we're going through, the teams ahead haven't pulled away to the extent people seem to think.

Yous will get 3 points back on them this weekend, I promise.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

Interestingly enough that's the time Rafa took over at Pool, if you insist on making comparisons, compare the progression of each club since that time.

Utd have done awesomely.

but that doesn't downplay the progression under Rafa. this season is the first time there's looked like a blip in that progression.

i'm all for taking stock at the end of the season though, which is what i've said should happen all along.

Mr Alan

Thank you CHD!

a draw would be preferable though! see if we can't get back into this title race

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

how many are key players for arsenal? Cesc, VP, Gallas, Arshavin and Vermaelen, they're key players, are all fit.

believe it or not, i made that point yesterday about arsenal's injury crisis being worse than ours and that our squad should be able to cope. i do agree with this to an extent.

but at the end of the day we've an injured Stevie, half-fit Torres, injured Johnson, Skrtel, half-fit Agger, injured Riera, half-fit Aquilani. so there is an injury 'crisis' (for want of a better word).

Torres, Mascherano, Carragher, Reina, Kuyt are key players for Liverpool and fit. I think the respective injuries are comparable.

3 senior squad defenders, important central midfielder, important striker, important striker/winger, second choice keeper, backup striker and a promising midfielder - describers arsenals injury list I think.

Spud83

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm talking to a Utd fan, who presumably thinks his side are favourites for the title, just pointing out despite the massive slump we're going through, the teams ahead haven't pulled away to the extent people seem to think.

Yes they have. You are nine points behind the league leaders, seven points behind second, 4 points off third (who have a game in hand), 1 point off fourth who have a game in hand.

That is falling behind Al, and there is no point bringing Ifs and buts into it.

whatawaster

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Yes they have. You are nine points behind the league leaders, seven points behind second, 4 points off third (who have a game in hand), 1 point off fourth who have a game in hand.

That is falling behind Al, and there is no point bringing Ifs and buts into it.

nothing a ten game winning streak won't fix!

Mr Alan

oh it is falling behind, i never said it wasn't, i simply said thats its not as far behind as people seem to think.

this thread was set up with the op stating we were collapsing & wouldnt finish in the top 4 this year.

despite our horrendous run,injuries,horrid luck,players underperforming,manager making mistakes etc. we're 1pt from the top 4.

Spud83

whatawaster wrote: »

nothing a ten game winning streak won't fix!

Won't make a blind bit of difference if Chelsea or United put together the same streak.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

oh it is falling behind, i never said it wasn't, i simply said thats its not as far behind as people seem to think.

Well, I disagree, you are falling behind as people are saying. Comparing possible points differences with United on Tuesday morning is completely irrelevant.

United are also falling behind a bit too imo - we are not as good this season as last season.

Why compare yourselves to United, the benchmark should be the team in 1st.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

this thread was set up with the op stating we were collapsing & wouldnt finish in the top 4 this year.

To be fair to the Op he aired his views almost 3 weeks ago.

Not many could argue with him now.

Spud83

Mr Alan wrote: »

despite our horrendous run,injuries,horrid luck,players underperforming,manager making mistakes etc. we're 1pt from the top 4.

Possibly four, the City game is gonna be massive for both clubs.

whatawaster

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Won't make a blind bit of difference if Chelsea or United put together the same streak.

It’s based on the reasonable assumption that they’ll get 24/25 points each in the same run. Which is more than they got in their first 10 game so it’s reasonable.
It’s DEFINITELY gonna happen.

Spud83

whatawaster wrote: »

It’s based on the reasonable assumption that they’ll get 24/25 points each in the same run. Which is more than they got in their first 10 game so it’s reasonable.
It’s DEFINITELY gonna happen.

How the **** is it reasonable to say Liverpool will go on a ten game winning streak yet the two clubs at the front aren't capable of doing it.

Seriously none of them will probably do it. After Birmingham, Liverpool have City, and Everton in the league. Neither are walk overs. I'd be surprised if they muster a two game winning streak, and ****ing shocked if they manage a run of three wins right now.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

To be fair to the Op he aired his views almost 3 weeks ago.

Not many could argue with him now.

I'd argue with him, he claimed we "overperformed" for 2 years straight. what unbelievable nonsense.

He also said Liverpool will finish outside the top 4, which i think he is very wrong on again.

kida

whatawaster wrote: »

nothing a ten game winning streak won't fix!

yeah and Liverpool look like doing this now 2 matches would be an imporvement - you play City,Everton and Arsenal over the upcoming matches. Difficult at the best of times.

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'd argue with him, he claimed we "overperformed" for 2 years straight. what unbelievable nonsense.

He also said Liverpool will finish outside the top 4, which i think he is very wrong on again.

city game coming up soon, that will prove alot

btw I hope ye do get a CL slot

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

btw I hope ye do get a CL slot

for what reason?

i presume because it equals rafa definitely staying.

CHD

Headshot wrote: »

city game coming up soon, that will prove alot

btw I hope ye do get a CL slot

How will one game prove alot when he is talking about what will happen over a season?

Headshot

SlickRic wrote: »

for what reason?

i presume because it equals rafa definitely staying.

no if city get that CL spot we're all screwed

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'd argue with him, he claimed we "overperformed" for 2 years straight. what unbelievable nonsense.

Why? Many people me included think Liverpool have overperformed, especially last year in the league. Massively helped by being out of all other competitions early, while Arsenal, Chelsea and United were still heavily involved.

Mr Alan wrote: »

He also said Liverpool will finish outside the top 4, which i think he is very wrong on again.

He was actually more specific he said 6th. Can't argue with him. From what I have seen so far that will be an achievement.

whatawaster

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

How the **** is it reasonable to say Liverpool will go on a ten game winning streak yet the two clubs at the front aren't capable of doing it.

Seriously none of them will probably do it. After Birmingham, Liverpool have City, and Everton in the league. Neither are walk overs. I'd be surprised if they muster a two game winning streak, and ****ing shocked if they manage a run of three wins right now.

kida wrote: »

yeah and Liverpool look like doing this now 2 matches would be an imporvement - you play City,Everton and Arsenal over the upcoming matches. Difficult at the best of times.

There’s something wrong with the pair of you if you thought I was being serious.
F*cking hell

Bubs101

Deleted User wrote: »

Wasn't the first of Mancini's 3 in a row a default after Juve were stripped of the title? I know it counts on paper but he never had to deal with the pressures of going to the wire. And the second was a one horse race with teams either in Serie B or docked so many points that it would be impossible to compete. Even last year I think Inter are still riding that tide. I mean they picked up the key available players from Juve's Championship winning side and then rode the coattails for 2 years. I'm not saying Mancini isn't a competent manager, I just have a bit of an issue with his "3 in a row" being used in any way to prove that he's a good manager

His first title was indeed a joke title but he still improved on the league position that Zacheronni got and then like I said, he went on a 17 game winning streak in the league one season and the next topped the league from start to finish and went unbeaten until March. He doesn't get the credit he deserve

Spud83

CHD wrote: »

How will one game prove alot when he is talking about what will happen over a season?

I think prove is the wrong word. But it seems like every game for Liverpool over the next while is going to involve massive pressure. The CL games, the City game will carry pressure with it, then there is the local derby, its just going to crank up every game.

Off course if they win these and get through to the CL stages then the club and squad will be an a massive up.

Its an very interesting month for Liverpool football club.

whatawaster wrote: »

There’s something wrong with the pair of you if you thought I was being serious.
F*cking hell

Its hard to tell around here some times.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Why? Many people me included think Liverpool have overperformed, especially last year in the league. Massively helped by being out of all other competitions early, while Arsenal, Chelsea and United were still heavily involved.

Did arsenal & chelsea have one/two more games in the CL than us?!

a team "overperforms" for 2 years.....surely you see how crazy a sentence that is. if a team plays that way for 2 years. that is their level.

i have money on with the OP re:Liverpool finishing in the top 4...would you like to get in on it too?

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Did arsenal & chelsea have one/two more games in the CL than us?!

FA Cup, Carling cup, it all adds up. More game time, more prep time, more chances of injury, etc.

Mr Alan wrote: »

a team "overperforms" for 2 years.....surely you see how crazy a sentence that is. if a team plays that way for 2 years. that is their level.

Don't think it is crazy at all. I'm not going to do a Pighead on it, but you yourself on numerous occasions have said Rafa has the team and club over preforming since he arrived, citing the owners, he only has had 80p to spend, and everyone is at him, etc...

Now what is the difference between you saying that and the OPs opinion?

Mr Alan wrote: »

i have money on with the OP re:Liverpool finishing in the top 4...would you like to get in on it too?

I have a feeling the scouse will SCRAPE 4th.

Al to be fair, you don't have a great track record of gambling, this is your 4th year in a row tipping Chelsea for the title.

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Now what is the difference between you saying that and the OPs opinion?

coz the op is saying it in a way that makes it seem bad ill wager :P

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Don't think it is crazy at all. I'm not going to do a Pighead on it, but you yourself on numerous occasions have said Rafa has the team and club over preforming since he arrived, citing the owners, he only has had 80p to spend, and everyone is at him, etc...Now what is the difference between you saying that and the OPs opinion?

I've said Rafa has overperformed since the americans have come in, building a team that is better than the resources he has had available to him.

saying a team performances on the pitch over 2 entire league campaigns (25 odd players) have been far better than they actually are for the whole time is crazy.....and surely would make Rafa about the best manager in the world?!

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

I've said Rafa has overperformed since the americans have come in, building a team that is better than the resources he has had available to him.

Well yeah, thats what I said above. They have been here the past 2 years havn't they??

So you agree Liverpool have overperformed the past 2 years.

But thats what the OP said.

So you agree with him, yes / no?

Mr Alan

the op said the players in the team have been playing better than they actually are. this is what he meant, there is no doubt.

i've said the team & Rafa have done very well in spite of the americans at the helm.

totally different things.

Spud83

Boggles wrote: »

Well yeah, thats what I said above. They have been here the past 2 years havn't they??

So you agree Liverpool have overperformed the past 2 years.

But thats what the OP said.

So you agree with him, yes / no?

No he is saying Rafa has over performed by building a team/squad that performed to the level they have the last two years.

The team did not over perform, Rafa did in building it with the limited funds.

None of the above is my position, just trying to provide clarity

Boggles

2) they have overperformed the past 2 seasons

Thats exactly what the OP said.

Which I and Mr.Alan (having explained himself again twice) agree on.

BolBill

Xavi6 wrote: »

He's not a moderator of this forum so is the same as your good self.

If you have a problem with a post or posters behaviour then report it.

I thought I did.