Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Xavi6

BolBill wrote: »

I thought I did.

Then there's no need to post about it on the thread as well. It only leads to off topic thread spoiling.

Thanks for reporting it, we'll deal with it.

Mr Alan

I'm done with this thread. Boggles, i'll PM you my password & you can use my account from now on, you're just putting words in my mouth anyway.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm done with this thread. Boggles, i'll PM you my password & you can use my account from now on, you're just putting words in my mouth anyway.

I have your password

iloveboggles right?

Oh and their your words Al, not mine.

Bet you'll be back though.

flahavaj

He'll be back the day Liverpool beat Fiorentina 3-0 to qualify for the last 16 of the champions league with a Voronin diving header getting the all important third goal.

BolBill

flahavaj wrote: »

He'll be back the day Liverpool beat Fiorentina 3-0 to qualify for the last 16 of the champions league with a Voronin diving header getting the all important third goal.

He wont be back so.

SlickRic

BolBill wrote: »

He wont be back so.

nope.

because it'll be lucas who gets it.

Dave!

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm done with this thread. Boggles, i'll PM you my password & you can use my account from now on, you're just putting words in my mouth anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2D3-FkoXNU

Al ! Al ! Al ! Al ! Al ! Al ! No, he's not seen me...

The Muppet

Where's AL gone? I miss him already.

Headshot

The Muppet wrote: »

Where's AL gone? I miss him already.

I pmmed him asking for his password

im going to be the new Mr. Alan

faster, stronger and actually talk sense

Dub13

Lads can we get this back on topic please.

starbelgrade

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

FA Cup in 1992, 2001 & 2006
League Cup in 1995, 2001 & 2003
Champions League in 2005
Uefa Cup in 2001

Not as succesful as they would want to be but a lot more succesful than 2 major trophies in two decades and am not counting Charity Shields (2001 & 2006) or Uefa Super Cups (2001 & 2005). By any other club this would not be a bad run, just compared to the previous two decades it pales into comparison.

Also it does not help when your biggest rivals have had their most succesful two decades in that same time period.

FA Cups, Charity Shields, Supercups or even World Club Cups are hardly major trophies. And I'd hardly see Man Utd as Liverpool's greatest rivals - Arsenal or Chelsea, yes.. in league terms, United are way ahead of the pack - Arsenal & Chelsea are always within shouting distance, but Liverpool in the last 20 years are just "also rans", chasing the pack.

themont85

starbelgrade wrote: »

FA Cups, Charity Shields, Supercups or even World Club Cups are hardly major trophies. And I'd hardly see Man Utd as Liverpool's greatest rivals - Arsenal or Chelsea, yes.. in league terms, United are way ahead of the pack - Arsenal & Chelsea are always within shouting distance, but Liverpool in the last 20 years are just "also rans", chasing the pack.

Yet Man United would have had us believe it was last year!

I'd be genuinely worried as a Pool, I think they need to ear mark 4th place as the target this year for the club's future. We can talk about the past titles and signings all we like but Liverpool are in a flux at the moment in ownership and debt and need to just steady the ship. Sacking Benitez will screw the club up even more financially and personnel wise with several players futures intertwined with him imo.

raven136

All this talk of Pool barely hanging on to 4th place is abit premature.if the result at the weekend is Chelsea beat United and Liverpool beat Birmimgham then their will be a massive 4 points between United and Pool.If its that close how can anyone say Pool are done?
Lot of points still to play for.

themont85

raven136 wrote: »

All this talk of Pool barely hanging on to 4th place is abit premature.if the result at the weekend is Chelsea beat United and Liverpool beat Birmimgham then their will be a massive 4 points between United and Pool.If its that close how can anyone say Pool are done?
Lot of points still to play for.

True, Liverpool have always come good under Benitiez post Christmas IIRC too.

Too many defeats though early has cost them though any hope at the title imo.

starbelgrade

themont85 wrote: »

True, Liverpool have always come good under Benitiez post Christmas IIRC too.

Too many defeats though early has cost them though any hope at the title imo.

It's not just Benitez's problem - the pool haven't won a league title in 19 odd years. That's a long, long time. There's a LOT more to it than the current manager.

thomond2006

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

They're just deflated at the moment. They'll bounce back.

Your theory is a load of hot air tbh.

Not so much now.

Dickerty

raven136 wrote: »

All this talk of Pool barely hanging on to 4th place is abit premature.if the result at the weekend is Chelsea beat United and Liverpool beat Birmimgham then their will be a massive 4 points between United and Pool.If its that close how can anyone say Pool are done?
Lot of points still to play for.

Exactly. And remember that is losing more games, we are also drawing less, so not that far off. Get through the Birmingham game with a win, all the injured players have basically 2 weeks to recover. Aquilani should be ready for a start, if we can get Gerrard, Torres and Benni in the same attack, we could start to thrash teams again. We can easily put together a run of wins like we had early this year.

mirwillbeback

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not so much now.

you do know his post was a piss take ( after the Sunderland game )

Mitch Connor

themont85 wrote: »

Yet Man United would have had us believe it was last year!

Thats just a freaking lie.

No United fan said, seriously, that it was a big trophy to win. Everyone felt it was nice to win it - winning any trophy you are in for is nice, but no one would feel it is up there with the PL, CL or FA Cup. I would say most would rate the League Cup higher!

The one thing the WCC has going for it though, is that it is the most difficult competition in football to qualify for, so being in it is an achievement in itself. The level of opposition you face when you are in it is comparatively weak, but thats just how it is.

Boggles

raven136 wrote: »

All this talk of Pool barely hanging on to 4th place is abit premature.if the result at the weekend is Chelsea beat United and Liverpool beat Birmimgham then their will be a massive 4 points between United and Pool.If its that close how can anyone say Pool are done?
Lot of points still to play for.

Reminds me of last May.

All ifs and buts.

If United beat Chelsea
If City beat Liverpool

You could be 7 points off the CL places, never mind looking at United or the top of table.

There is 10 league games between now and the end of the year for the Scouse.

Including games against City, Everton, Arsenal, Villa.

What is an acceptable points tally for Rafa?

Personally I think he needs 27/28 out of the 30.

Can it be done, yes!

Will it be done, doubtful.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Reminds me of last May.

All ifs and buts.

If United beat Chelsea
If City beat Liverpool

You could be 7 points off the CL places, never mind looking at United or the top of table.

There is 10 league games between now and the end of the year for the Scouse.

Including games against City, Everton, Arsenal, Villa.

What is an acceptable points tally for Rafa?

Personally I think he needs 27/28 out of the 30.

Can it be done, yes!

Will it be done, doubtful.

at least 3 more than United or Chelsea

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

at least 3 more than United or Chelsea

Based on what you have seen so far can Liverpool realistically over the next 10 games out perform United and Chelsea?

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Based on what you have seen so far can Liverpool realistically over the next 10 games out perform United and Chelsea?

Of course they can. Liverpool have been notoriously patchy (though never this patchy) every season under Rafa.
I wouldn’t bet a single cent on us getting more points than Chelsea over the next 10 games. But it’s possible.
As someone else said when everyone is fit and most importantly, if everyone is firing then we have a very dangerous team with lots of goals in it.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Of course they can. Liverpool have been notoriously patchy (though never this patchy) every season under Rafa.
I wouldn’t bet a single cent on us getting more points than Chelsea over the next 10 games. But it’s possible.
As someone else said when everyone is fit and most importantly, if everyone is firing then we have a very dangerous team with lots of goals in it.

9 points off the top at the moment.

8 points worse off than last year.

Your main competition this season is Arsenal, City and Spurs. IMO.

All 3 are ahead of Liverpool, 2 have games in hand.

Fortunately you have to play all 3 of them in the next 11 games. Those 3 games are the season definers there for the Scouse, the league will be a 2 horse race.

I said from the start Liverpool would struggle for a CL place, I sided on them scraping it though, looking at whats happening and whats coming up, I'm not too sure anymore.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

9 points off the top at the moment.

8 points worse off than last year.

Your main competition this season is Arsenal, City and Spurs. IMO.

All 3 are ahead of Liverpool, 2 have games in hand.

Fortunately you have to play all 3 of them in the next 11 games. Those 3 games are the season definers there for the Scouse, the league will be a 2 horse race.

I said from the start Liverpool would struggle for a CL place, I sided on them scraping it though, looking at whats happening and whats coming up, I'm not too sure anymore.

I think Arsenal are looking more likely than United at the moment, there is no sign of them falling away.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

I think Arsenal are looking more likely than United at the moment, there is no sign of them falling away.

Which means United will finish 3rd or 4th?

Can't see it.

Vanbis

Boggles wrote: »

Which means United will finish 3rd or 4th?

Can't see it.

Of course you can't Boggles its only November .

I agree with you about Liverpool for 4th spot. I thought they overachieved towards the end of last season and with Alonso gone and one striker in Torres i said they would struggle for 4th spot because i believe Man City, Aston Villa and Spurs would push them close for 4th spot.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Which means United will finish 3rd or 4th?

Can't see it.

I could easily see it. I think they’ll finish second personally. Probably on in or around 80 points. I think Arsenal could easily get something similar. Chelsea on around 85/86
Liverpool would need 62 points from 27 games to match that 80 points tally. 20 wins out of 27. Unlikely but not impossible.

I don’t think United have really played well in a stretch of games for about 8 or 9 months now. But fair play to them they keep on winning. I think there are big question marks over them if Rooney gets injured. Tevez and Ronaldo dug them out of many holes last year, Rooney too. Without those three there aren’t many left you could rely on to do that. Like Liverpool when they lose Gerrard and Torres. We’re relying on Benayoun for creativity.

jesus_thats_gre

At the moment, I reckon it is going to end up:

Chelsea
Arsenal
United
Liverpool
City
Villa
Tottenham
Everton
Sunderland


United have a stronger squad that Liverpool on paper but those players really need to start asserting themselves - as individuals, large numbers of that United team are either underperforming or not living up to expectations and their transfer fee.

Arsenal have the best squad of attacking players in the league.

Boggles

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

United have a stronger squad that Liverpool on paper but those players really need to start asserting themselves - as individuals, large numbers of that United team are either underperforming or not living up to expectations and their transfer fee.

Odd, How is it only a stronger squad on paper?

As for United not playing well, this is true. More worryingly though for the teams around them they can top the table this week, and this is by not playing well.

Headshot

Boggles wrote: »

Odd, How is it only a stronger squad on paper?

As for United not playing well, this is true. More worryingly though for the teams around them they can top the table next week, and this is by not playing well.

and we usually play better after christmas too

CHD

Arsenal' kids don't like the cold when it comes about though.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Odd, How is it only a stronger squad on paper?

As for United not playing well, this is true. More worryingly though for the teams around them they can top the table next week, and this is by not playing well.

There’s a couple of ways of looking at it.

Worrying for other teams that United are getting results and not playing well – as they have done for the majority of 2009
Worrying for United that sooner or later will come a bad run of results. Indeed that could have been the case at the end of last season but Ronaldo, Tevez and even Macheda dug them out of difficult situations.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

There’s a couple of ways of looking at it.

Worrying for other teams that United are getting results and not playing well – as they have done for the majority of 2009
Worrying for United that sooner or later will come a bad run of results. Indeed that could have been the case at the end of last season but Ronaldo, Tevez and even Macheda dug them out of difficult situations.

Well there is another way of looking at it aswell.

More points already than last year, more goals already than last year.

Qualified for the next round of the CL faster than last year.

2 senior players in Brown and Hargreaves back shortly. The Asian George Best back in a couple of weeks aswell.

The cup is certainly 3 quarters full at the angle I'm viewing it.

flahavaj

In fairness Rooney did his fair share to "dig United trouble" at the end of last season too. Certainly as much as Ronaldo and infinitely more than Tevez. Like the Spurs match, he basically beat them on his own (aided by the ref of course;) )

And its good to know we have Macheda's matchwining qualities to call on as well should they be required.

Okay, given I'm a United fan and I actually do regard Rafa as a pretty average manager, I shouldn't do this but I feel I should. I will admit that I love seeing him fail repeatedly. Reason being (besides being a United fan and Liverpool being our bitter enemies) is that one of the main things I hate seeing is Pool fans, with a straight face, arguing that Rafa is better than Fergie, I find it incredibly disrespectful to Sir Alex who has worked his whole career to be regarded among the greats (IMO the best ever), so Rafas constant failings serve as a nice reminder of this. I certainly view him as much less than the messiah that most Pool fans regard him as, but I do feel that it is appropriate right now to seek a bit of perspective:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/dec/08/match.manchesterunited

There will be a reckoning that takes place in private and it is likely to see Sir Alex Ferguson's tenure at Manchester United terminated at the close of the season. The murmuring of rich men over the current balance sheet and the future prospects can be deadly, but no ruthlessness by the Glazer family will cause such heartache as failure on a football field does.

This night at the home of Benfica will be the image of Ferguson's end.

The immediate financial loss inflicted by this defeat is impossible to reckon since United, for all we know, might have been eliminated in the last 16, but the trend is all wrong for the Glazers if they intend to raise turnover from £161m to £245m by 2010. Dispensing with Ferguson might be an easy decision, but the owners will have to dig painfully deep if they are to acquire the footballers who can restore United and boost the profit margin.

Liverpool aren't out yet, and it'd be just like them to get out of their group (I hope they don't). And as the above article shows, things can change very quickly. 18 months after this disaster, United were champions again. 30 months later they were champions of England AND Europe. You see where I'm going here. I've never been a fan of sacking managers after a bad run of games tbh.

SlickRic

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate seeing is Pool fans, with a straight face, arguing that Rafa is better than Fergie.

i don't know what sort of wind up merchants you've been hanging out with.

i, as an avid Liverpool fan, couldn't do that with a straight face, unless i was really deseprate to get a rise out of someone.

in terms of how Rafa should be treated, you're spot on really.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

And as the above article shows, things can change very quickly. 18 months after this disaster, United were champions again.

What that articles shows Neil is the guy that wrote it was an idiot.

Fortunately the Glaziers arn't.

gucci

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't know what sort of wind up merchants you've been hanging out with.

i, as an avid Liverpool fan, couldn't do that with a straight face, unless i was really deseprate to get a rise out of someone.

in terms of how Rafa should be treated, you're spot on really.

+1 exactly what he said on both counts.

I dont what fans of any club or manager could dismiss Ferguson ability/record/achievement.

SlickRic

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't know what sort of wind up merchants you've been hanging out with.

I used to work with Mr Alan!

The Muppet

Deleted User wrote: »

And as the above article shows, things can change very quickly. 18 months after this disaster, United were champions again. 30 months later they were champions of England AND Europe. You see where I'm going here. I've never been a fan of sacking managers after a bad run of games tbh.

There is a pretty obvious difference between Fergie and Rafa, When United had their lean spell Fegie's teams had dominate English soccer for a decade, he had earned the trust respect and admiration of United fans.

He was a proven successful manager and you don't suddenly become a bad manager overnight . Fergi took his eye off the ball for a few seasons but he put it right as many expected him to do.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

He was a proven successful manager and you don't suddenly become a bad manager overnight

So is Rafa. Nowhere near Fergie’s level, but still one of the most successful in Europe. He hasn’t become a bad manager overnight.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

but still one of the most successful in Europe.

Is he though. If you listed all the managers now still plying their trade and their achievements, would he even be in the top 10?

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

So is Rafa. Nowhere near Fergie’s level, but still one of the most successful in Europe. He hasn’t become a bad manager overnight.

I disagree, Four years isn't overnight, one FA cup in that time isn't what I would call successful either.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

I disagree, Four years isn't overnight, one FA cup in that time isn't what I would call successful either.

he hasn't been managing us badly for 4 years ffs.

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

he hasn't been managing us badly for 4 years ffs.

How long has it been then ?;)

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Is he though. If you listed all the managers now still plying their trade and their achievements, would he even be in the top 10?

yes

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

How long has it been then ?;)

this season has been the first sign of a real blip. every other season has seen progression.

ask me again come the end of the season..

Handsome Bob

The Muppet wrote: »

I disagree, Four years isn't overnight, one FA cup in that time isn't what I would call successful either.

Really?

What about all the stockings that Gerard Houllier bought? The good players he bought...Hyypia, Hamann.....that's all I've got. The man bought Diouf for £11m ffs. Say what you want about Rafa but at least he has signed a few world class players (Reina, Alonso, Torres etc etc).

Rafa is also the man who has gotten the best out of players that Houllier couldn't. Besides for the fact he's made Carragher and Gerrard the players they are today, let's not also forget that for the most part he dragged Houllier's misfits to the CL finish line.

We have a genuinely world beating team when they are all fit, we never had that under Houllier.

To say he's done nothing in 4 years is just being deliberately inflammatory tbh.

themont85

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Thats just a freaking lie.

No United fan said, seriously, that it was a big trophy to win. Everyone felt it was nice to win it - winning any trophy you are in for is nice, but no one would feel it is up there with the PL, CL or FA Cup. I would say most would rate the League Cup higher!

The one thing the WCC has going for it though, is that it is the most difficult competition in football to qualify for, so being in it is an achievement in itself. The level of opposition you face when you are in it is comparatively weak, but thats just how it is.

Wasn't talking about the fans, badges on the arms though says United thought it was a big enough deal, certainly they never have those for winning League Cups.