Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

midget lord

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Really?

What about all the stockings that Gerard Houllier bought? The good players he bought...Hyypia, Hamann.....that's all I've got. The man bought Diouf for £11m ffs. Say what you want about Rafa but at least he has signed a few world class players (Reina, Alonso, Torres etc etc).

Rafa is also the man who has gotten the best out of players that Houllier couldn't. Besides for the fact he's made Carragher and Gerrard the players they are today, let's not also forget that for the most part he dragged Houllier's misfits to the CL finish line.

We have a genuinely world beating team when they are all fit, we never had that under Houllier.

To say he's done nothing in 4 years is just being deliberately inflammatory tbh.

Thats unfair on Ged. Other good signigs:

Stephen Henchoz
Vlad Smicer
Markus Babbel
Gary McAllister (Genius signing)

Bear in mind he was also responsible for helping the academy development which is still a WIP under Rafa.

midget lord

themont85 wrote: »

Wasn't talking about the fans, badges on the arms though says United thought it was a big enough deal, certainly they never have those for winning League Cups.

Badges on the chest of the jersey say even more...

SlickRic

i certainly don't understand a lot criticism of Houllier. he was great for us.

what i will say is that Rafa definitely took us to the next level; quality and consistency-wise.

Handsome Bob

midget lord wrote: »

Thats unfair on Ged. Other good signigs:

Stephen Henchoz
Vlad Smicer
Markus Babbel
Gary McAllister (Genius signing)

Bear in mind he was also responsible for helping the academy development which is still a WIP under Rafa.

Henchoz is a man who benefited greatly from having either Sami or Carra beside him.

Smicer was a good player, not a consistent one though. I think we signed him for about £4.5m, compare that to Benayoun at £5m.

Babbel was a good player, but a man who never really got to build a could good career for us thanks to his illness.

Gary Mc I'll give you, I forgot about Finnan too.

Have we've seen any quality players come out of the academy in the last five years? Scratch that, besides for Gerrard since Houllier was there?

midget lord

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Henchoz is a man who benefited greatly from having either Sami or Carra beside him.

Smicer was a good player, not a consistent one though. I think we signed him for about £4.5m, compare that to Benayoun at £5m.

Babbel was a good player, but a man who never really got to build a could good career for us thanks to his illness.

Gary Mc I'll give you, I forgot about Finnan too.

Have we've seen any quality players come out of the academy in the last five years? Scratch that, besides for Gerrard since Houllier was there?

You are right about Finnan too.

You are judging him by very high and unfair standards. Every signing a manager makes is not going to be a success, but some of the ones mentioned above were pivitol in bringing about the success LFC have enjoyed this decade. Henchoz and Hyypia, IMO were the reason we were so successful in 2001, so too Gary Mac.

Valdi had a poor time of it with us, but I will always hold him in high regard for his goal in Istanbul.

Comparing Benny to Vladi at similar prices is a little unfair also. That signing has proven to be a masterstroke from Rafa, but not everybody thought so at the time.

For instance, Berbatov was a squllion euro and he has not scored in a CL final....

Chucky the tree

Houiller started out great for us, but there's no doubt he left the club in a huge mess with no players coming through and with alot of players hitting the down side of their careers. The problem rafa has is people think Liverpool are still a big club that should be challenging for titles because we used to do it religious 20 years ago.

Handsome Bob

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Houiller started out great for us, but there's no doubt he left the club in a huge mess with no players coming through and with alot of players hitting the down side of their careers. The problem rafa has is people think Liverpool are still a big club that should be challenging for titles because we used to do it religious 20 years ago.

We're not?

Chucky the tree

LZ5by5 wrote: »

We're not?

We'll this will come down to everyone's own definition of big club is etc. In my eyes we are not, to be a big club you have to be continuously battling for a league title. Don't really know how Liverpool can be considered a big club when we have only finished 2nd in 7 odd years and in those other years we've had a 5th place finish and been 37 points behind the winners, a 4th place finish 30points behind the winners, 3rd place 9 points behind the winners and 3rd place 21 points behind the winners.

Mitch Connor

themont85 wrote: »

Wasn't talking about the fans, badges on the arms though says United thought it was a big enough deal, certainly they never have those for winning League Cups.

midget lord wrote: »

Badges on the chest of the jersey say even more...

They HAVE to wear the badges - it is required of them. Note that they don't wear them on the kits in the PL, FA Cup or League Cup, any of the tops we have a choice on.

midget lord

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We'll this will come down to everyone's own definition of big club is etc. In my eyes we are not, to be a big club you have to be continuously battling for a league title. Don't really know how Liverpool can be considered a big club when we have only finished 2nd in 7 odd years and in those other years we've had a 5th place finish and been 37 points behind the winners, a 4th place finish 30points behind the winners, 3rd place 9 points behind the winners and 3rd place 21 points behind the winners.

You are disgrace and dont deserve the right to call yourself a red.

LFC and the mancs and far and away the biggest clubs in the UK in every discernable measure.

Frankly, I am totally sickened by your remarks.

Handsome Bob

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We'll this will come down to everyone's own definition of big club is etc. In my eyes we are not, to be a big club you have to be continuously battling for a league title. Don't really know how Liverpool can be considered a big club when we have only finished 2nd in 7 odd years and in those other years we've had a 5th place finish and been 37 points behind the winners, a 4th place finish 30points behind the winners, 3rd place 9 points behind the winners and 3rd place 21 points behind the winners.

Well when you look at who Rafa has finished behind (excluding that freak first season) the only team he hasn't had a genuine excuse for finishing behind is Arsenal. In those first years we couldn't compete financially with Man U or Chelsea (and still can't).

We've also dominated the final stages of the CL since Rafa has come along as well as with the other english teams so really, I don't see why we're not a big club. Just because we're struggling to knock a 20 year leagacy off its' ****ing perch (;)) doesn't mean we're not a big club.

midget lord

Mitch Connor wrote: »

They HAVE to wear the badges - it is required of them. Note that they don't wear them on the kits in the PL, FA Cup or League Cup, any of the tops we have a choice on.

Like LFC are forced to wear the 5 times crest on the sleeve. Not bad for a small club.

Mitch Connor

midget lord wrote: »

Like LFC are forced to wear the 5 times crest on the sleeve. Not bad for a small club.

eh - what are you on about.

1. I don't think Liverpool are forced to do anything of the sort.
2. I haven't called them a small club, and I don't consider them a small club.
3. United do actually HAVE to wear the World Cup crest on the kit, up until January, when the next team to win it will have to wear it.

Kess73

The Muppet wrote: »

I disagree, Four years isn't overnight, one FA cup in that time isn't what I would call successful either.

:D:D:D

Ah Muppet you really are quite the comic. You and Boggles were quick to try and shoot down my comments about Wenger yesterday, what with him having only won the FA cup since the 2004/2005 season. In Wengers case not winning silverware is just a sign of transition, yet when Rafa has not won a cup since 2005/06 it is a sign of being unsuccessful.

So going years without winning a trophy only counts if it is Rafa?


I guess the arguements you use change to suit the reactions you want to get.

midget lord

Mitch Connor wrote: »

eh - what are you on about.

1. I don't think Liverpool are forced to do anything of the sort.
2. I haven't called them a small club, and I don't consider them a small club.
3. United do actually HAVE to wear the World Cup crest on the kit, up until January, when the next team to win it will have to wear it.

Its not all about you mate. Chucky the Tree has said LFC are not a big club.

Mitch Connor

midget lord wrote: »

Its not all about you mate. Chucky the Tree has said LFC are not a big club.

you replied directly to what I said, quoting me.

Chucky the tree

midget lord wrote: »

You are disgrace and dont deserve the right to call yourself a red.

LFC and the mancs and far and away the biggest clubs in the UK in every discernable measure.

Frankly, I am totally sickened by your remarks.

lol. I am not even going to waste my time. Tbh Liverpool would be in a far better position if people accepted Liverpool aren't a big club and actually gave Rafa a chance to build a team rather then forcing him to spend his money on one off big players because expectation to win is so high.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Well when you look at who Rafa has finished behind (excluding that freak first season) the only team he hasn't had a genuine excuse for finishing behind is Arsenal. In those first years we couldn't compete financially with Man U or Chelsea (and still can't).

We've also dominated the final stages of the CL since Rafa has come along as well as with the other english teams so really, I don't see why we're not a big club. Just because we're struggling to knock a 20 year leagacy off its' ****ing perch (;)) doesn't mean we're not a big club.

How can a club who cant compete financially with the top clubs be considered a big club? How can a club who can't(won't?) compete for trophies(even FA or carling cups) on a continuous basis be considered a big club? While we have done extremely well in the CL you don't win trophies for semi-finals. As a great man once said “If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.”

Prufrock

LZ5by5 wrote: »

We've also dominated the final stages of the CL since Rafa has come along as well as with the other english teams so really, I don't see why we're not a big club.

Liverpools European form alone could make them a big club. Being in the top 4 of the PL makes you a big club. Rafa wouldn't be under the pressure he's under if he wasn't managing a big club. "Liverpool aren't a big club" is a nonsense statement.

Being a successful club is different. By the standards that Liverpool set for themselves their trophy return has been poor for years. Rafa is just continuing the trend of failing to win things consistently.

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol. I am not even going to waste my time. Tbh Liverpool would be in a far better position if people accepted Liverpool aren't a big club and actually gave Rafa a chance to build a team rather then forcing up to spend his money on one off big players because expectation to win is so high.





How can a club who cant compete financially with the top clubs be considered a big club? How can a club who can't(won't?) compete for trophies(even FA or carling cups) on a continuous basis be considered a big club? While we have done extremely well in the CL you don't win trophies for semi-finals. As a great man once said “If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.”

So the big clubs in England are Man City, Chelsea, and Man Utd then. They are the three that can compete in terms of finance.


And if you are basing on terms of major trophies won in recent years, then it is down to Chelsea and Man utd.

Dont be at yourself

Houllier, overall, had a positive impact on the club. He gets a lot of undeserved stick, but the club came on leaps and bounds under him.

midget lord

Mitch Connor wrote: »

you replied directly to what I said, quoting me.

Because you had responded directly to my post. Get over it.

Just to clarify Chucky the Tree, if you cannot compete financially you are not a big club. Does that mean Man City are now bigger than both Liverpool and Arsenal?

Chucky the tree

Prufrock wrote: »

Liverpools European form alone could make them a big club. Being in the top 4 of the PL makes you a big club. Rafa wouldn't be under the pressure he's under if he wasn't managing a big club. "Liverpool aren't a big club" is a nonsense statement.

Being a successful club is different. By the standards that Liverpool set for themselves their trophy return has been poor for years. Rafa is just continuing the trend of failing to win things consistently.

Good point here, I should of said Liverpool shouldn't be considered a big club.

Kess73 wrote: »

So the big clubs in England are Man City, Chelsea, and Man Utd then. They are the three that can compete in terms of finance.


And if you are basing on terms of major trophies won in recent years, then it is down to Chelsea and Man utd.

Well I said in my first post that to be a big club you have to be consistantly batting for league titles so you are right that I only considered United and chelsea to be the big clubs in England.

SlickRic

wow.

now Liverpool fans are comparing mickey sizes with each other, never mind the rival clubs' supporters.

what are we becoming lads?

Chucky the tree

midget lord wrote: »

Because you had responded directly to my post. Get over it.

Just to clarify Chucky the Tree, if you cannot compete financially you are not a big club. Does that mean Man City are now bigger than both Liverpool and Arsenal?

When was the last time City challenged for a league title? If you cannot compete financially and/or challenge for league titles then your not a big club. The fact City havent won a major trophy since they won the first division I still think Liverpool are a bigger club then Man city, but not a big club.

midget lord

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When was the last time City challenged for a league title? If you cannot compete financially and/or challenge for league titles then your not a big club. The fact City havent won a major trophy since they won the first division I still think Liverpool are a bigger club then Man city, but not a big club.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How can a club who cant compete financially with the top clubs be considered a big club?

You are contradicting yourself.

You have already stated that you dont think Liverpool are a big club because they cannot compete financially with the top clubs. This is total nonsense and unless you retract that statement I can only assume you are a WUM.

Handsome Bob

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How can a club who cant compete financially with the top clubs be considered a big club?

We've wonn 18 league titles and five european cups. Compared to the likes N'Castle (no offence intended) we are well within our rights to call ourselves a big club. Also, we're not a team who dropped off terribly after a successful period. We haven't, like Leeds, totally imploded and ended up relegated. That has never happened and we have always been there abouts within the top four. Add that to what Rafa has achieved (CL, a better squad full of genuinely class players etc etc) we are definitely a big club. If we weren't how did we attract the likes of Torres and Aquilani, and manage to keep Gerrard?

How can a club who can't(won't?) compete for trophies(even FA or carling cups) on a continuous basis be considered a big club? While we have done extremely well in the CL you don't win trophies for semi-finals. As a great man once said“If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.”

Just because we are a big club that doesn't give us the divine right to be continuously competing. If only football was as kind as that.

Prufrock wrote: »

Liverpools European form alone could make them a big club. Being in the top 4 of the PL makes you a big club. Rafa wouldn't be under the pressure he's under if he wasn't managing a big club. "Liverpool aren't a big club" is a nonsense statement.

Agreed. I really don't understand it, we're a team full of quality players, why would these guys want to be here if we weren't a big club?

Being a successful club is different. By the standards that Liverpool set for themselves their trophy return has been poor for years. Rafa is just continuing the trend of failing to win things consistently.

Winning things consistently is a perk oh so few managers have been able to indulge themselves in.

SlickRic wrote: »

wow.

now Liverpool fans are comparing mickey sizes with each other, never mind the rival clubs' supporters.

what are we becoming lads?

Jesus mate;

1. It's a discussion forum

2. Merely defending my team against questionable claims.

Chucky the tree

midget lord wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself.

You have already stated that you dont think Liverpool are a big club because they cannot compete financially with the top clubs. This is total nonsense and unless you retract that statement I can only assume you are a WUM.

Well I had a follow up question directly after the fincially question which I thought would of made it pretty obvious I felt both of them were linked together. Clearly I thought wrong. So I will issue a knew statement. Unless a team can compete financially with big clubs and compete consistently for league titles then they are not a big rule. The expectation to the rule would be a team who might not be able to compete financially but consistently compete for league titles would be granted entrance into my big club criteria, however that's unlikely to happen.

Chucky the tree

LZ5by5 wrote: »

We've wonn 18 league titles and five european cups. Compared to the likes N'Castle (no offence intended) we are well within our rights to call ourselves a big club. Also, we're not a team who dropped off terribly after a successful period. We haven't, like Leeds, totally imploded and ended up relegated. That has never happened and we have always been there abouts within the top four. Add that to what Rafa has achieved (CL, a better squad full of genuinely class players etc etc) we are definitely a big club. If we weren't how did we attract the likes of Torres and Aquilani, and manage to keep Gerrard?

Sorry attract the likes of aquilani? what other clubs were in for Aquilani at the time? he has 11 international caps since 2006, he's averaged 20 games a season in the last 7 years, I seriously doubt he was at the top of Barcalonas, chelsea, Uniteds, Madrid's and inters shopping list and we managed to beat them all off. As I said peoples definition of "big club" will differ, Ajax have won 4 champions league trophies but I wouldn't consider them a big club either. Torres played for a club who could not guarentee CL football so of course Liverpool was a big step up for him still. Again I don't remember many other clubs dying for his signature as his goal ratio for Madrid was quite poor and even the at the time was questioned by a huge amount of liverpool fans. Gerrard I'll give you, but we all know it wasn't a forgone conclusion he would stay. We won a champions league trophy that year and our club captain comes very close to leaving? This summer we couldn't keep hold of Alonso and big rumours of Masch wanting to leave as well.

Just because we are a big club that doesn't give us the divine right to be continuously competing. If only football was as kind as that.

Of all the teams that you think are big clubs have any of them gone as long as Liverpool without a league title?

Agreed. I really don't understand it, we're a team full of quality players, why would these guys want to be here if we weren't a big club?

No every great player can play for a big club, simply not enough space for them. Also some players are happy at clubs were they won't win things, then again I'm sure most Liverpool players are just around the corners from winning a league title. I mean I'm sure Gerrard felt that was a possibility when he signed he stayed in 2004.

SlickRic

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Of all the teams that you think are big clubs have any of them gone as long as Liverpool without a league title?

all i'll say...

big equal winning the league recently, necessarily.

our history and fanbase ensures we remain a big club, as does our recent successes in Europe.

i don't know why the term 'big' is so important though.

Prufrock

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Winning things consistently is a perk oh so few managers have been able to indulge themselves in.

It's whats needed to be successful. Teams like Liverpool, United, Chelsea, Aresnal, Real Madrid, Barca, AC, Inter....ect all need to win things. It's in the clubs DNA. If the manager doesn't deliver then he'll be under pressure. If he goes on a run like Rafas done then he needs to fix it fast or he's gone. Not because he's a bad manager because these clubs need to be successful. They don't know any other way.

midget lord

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Torres played for a club who could not guarentee CL football so of course Liverpool was a big step up for him still. Again I don't remember many other clubs dying for his signature as his goal ratio for Madrid was quite poor and even the at the time was questioned by a huge amount of liverpool fans.

The season before Torres signed for LFC he was linked with the mancs.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Of all the teams that you think are big clubs have any of them gone as long as Liverpool without a league title?

The mancs went 25 years without winning the league.

Chelsea went 49 years without winning the league.

I use the latter as you consider them to be a big club.

Handsome Bob

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Sorry attract the likes of aquilani? what other clubs were in for Aquilani at the time? he has 11 international caps since 2006, he's averaged 20 games a season in the last 7 years, I seriously doubt he was at the top of Barcalonas, chelsea, Uniteds, Madrid's and inters shopping list and we managed to beat them all off.

Yes, Aquilani, a man who loves Roma as much as Gerrard loves Liverpool. I imagine it took a lot for him to want to leave Roma, what else other than a top team could have enticed him?

I believe Wenger said a few weeks ago that he had his eye on Aquilani.

As I said peoples definition of "big club" will differ, Ajax have won 4 champions league trophies but I wouldn't consider them a big club either.

The Dutch league no longer carries that much prestige, so that coupled with their failure to do anything worth of note in recent memory in the CL is the reason why they are no longer a "big club".

Torres played for a club who could not guarentee CL football so of course Liverpool was a big step up for him still. Again I don't remember many other clubs dying for his signature as his goal ratio for Madrid was quite poor and even the at the time was questioned by a huge amount of liverpool fans.

I believe Man U attempted to sign him on more than one occasion. Also, you are right in a way, but now that he has proven himself, he could go to any other big club he wanted. Yet he's not being a petulant brat and he's perfectly happy at Liverpool.

Gerrard I'll give you, but we all know it wasn't a forgone conclusion he would stay. We won a champions league trophy that year and our club captain comes very close to leaving?

He was still a youngish man at the time, unhappy at the "cold" and "distant" manager he had who never given him a pat on the back. His head was turned by the "warm" Mourinho, but he saw sense soon enough.

This summer we couldn't keep hold of Alonso and big rumours of Masch wanting to leave as well.

Alonso always wanted to go back to Spain. He had given us five seasons as well as having a wife and new child so whatever. Mascherano is perhaps also a man influenced by the girlfriend too.

Of all the teams that you think are big clubs have any of them gone as long as Liverpool without a league title?

I don't know. What I do know is that it is a incredibly difficult league where so many obstacles have a rose such as Man U's rise to prominence, Abramovich's millions, Man U's resurgence and now perhaps even the millions of City. Give us an arab to rival City and we'll see how Rafa does then.

No every great player can play for a big club, simply not enough space for them. Also some players are happy at clubs were they won't win things, then again I'm sure most Liverpool players are just around the corners from winning a league title. I mean I'm sure Gerrard felt that was a possibility when he signed he stayed in 2004.

Quality players wouldn't stick around if they thought that was the case, especially players who could easily ply their trade in Spain with Barca or Real. And yes, maybe they do think a league title is around the corner, nothing wrong with that. Would you prefer a defeatist attitude?

Ardent

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Houllier, overall, had a positive impact on the club. He gets a lot of undeserved stick, but the club came on leaps and bounds under him.

Really?

If that's true then I wonder why:

- We almost lost Steven Gerrard in addition to Michael Owen, our two best players?
- Other than those two, we had assembled a squad full of turkeys?
- There was graffitti on the walls of the training ground?
- The fans were booing Houllier at home games?
- Houllier was attacking fans in press conferences?
- Houllier barring former Liverpool legends from Anfield?
- Finishing in the top 4 had become an annual ambition of the club?
- We were broke after Houllier's £10M payoff and the purchase of turkeys mentioned above?
- Our players wanted out of the club?

Pull the other one mate.

The Muppet

Ardent wrote: »

Really?

If that's true then I wonder why:

- We almost lost Steven Gerrard in addition to Michael Owen, our two best players?
- Other than those two, we had assembled a squad full of turkeys?
- There was graffitti on the walls of the training ground?
- The fans were booing Houllier at home games?
- Houllier was attacking fans in press conferences?
- Houllier barring former Liverpool legends from Anfield?
- Finishing in the top 4 had become an annual ambition of the club?
- Our players wanted out of the club?

Pull the other one mate.

Didn't Rafa Sell Owen?
Houlier made some good signings too, Anelka, Finnian, Risse, Dudek were turkeys were they?
The Fans booed Rafa only a a few weeks ago.
Would Ronnie Whelan be welcome at Anfield these days?

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Didn't Rafa Sell Owen?
Houlier made some good signings too, Anelka, Finnian, Risse, Dudek were turkeys were they?
The Fans booed Rafa only a a few weeks ago.
Would Ronnie Whelan be welcome at Anfield these days?

Anelka can hardly be put in Houllier’s “good” column. After all he passed up the chance to sign him and went for Diouf instead.

Dont be at yourself

Really?

If that's true then I wonder why:

- We almost lost Steven Gerrard in addition to Michael Owen, our two best players?
- Other than those two, we had assembled a squad full of turkeys?
- There was graffitti on the walls of the training ground?
- The fans were booing Houllier at home games?
- Houllier was attacking fans in press conferences?
- Houllier barring former Liverpool legends from Anfield?
- Finishing in the top 4 had become an annual ambition of the club?
- Our players wanted out of the club?

Pull the other one mate.

Listen, Houllier was far from perfect, but you can't ignore the good he did for the club. He signed some real gems in Hyppia and Henchoz, Hamann and Smicer. He overhauled Melwood, the youth system, the scouting network and went a long way to modernising the club, dragging out from the shadow of the boot room.

He also won Liverpool's only major trophies in years - giving younger Liverpool fans a taste of success that they'd previously only read, heard or dreamed about. In 2000-2001, they won every single knock-out cup they entered - that's a monumental achievement. They beat some of Europe's finest teams along the way. The fact that the team couldn't build on that should take nothing away from those achievements.

midget lord

The Muppet wrote: »

Didn't Rafa Sell Owen?
Houlier made some good signings too, Anelka, Finnian, Risse, Dudek were turkeys were they?
The Fans booed Rafa only a a few weeks ago.
Would Ronnie Whelan be welcome at Anfield these days?

Rafa did sell Owen but he had decided to leave before Rafa even arrived.


There is no doubt that Houllier was never the same after his operation, but before that he was doing a pretty decent job. I for one will always remain thankful for 2001. Picking up trophies in May is what LFC is all about and GH reminded us of that.

Ronnie Whelan has been hanging around with Eamonn Dunphy too much. He is no longer a pundit but a sensationalist journo.

whatawaster

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Listen, Houllier was far from perfect, but you can't ignore the good he did for the club. He signed some real gems in Hyppia and Henchoz, Hamann and Smicer. He overhauled Melwood, the youth system, the scouting network and went a long way to modernising the club, dragging out from the shadow of the boot room.

He also won Liverpool's only major trophies in years - giving younger Liverpool fans a taste of success that they'd previously only read, heard or dreamed about. In 2000-2001, they won every single knock-out cup they entered - that's a monumental achievement. They beat some of Europe's finest teams along the way. The fact that the team couldn't build on that should take nothing away from those achievements.

now here . . . Istanbul was great and all, but Smicer was a very average player

midget lord

whatawaster wrote: »

now here . . . Istanbul was great and all, but Smicer was a very average player

Who scored in the CL final.

Mental Mickey

midget lord wrote: »

Who scored in the CL final.

One game doesn't turn an average player into a great one. Smicer was an average player.

whatawaster

midget lord wrote: »

Who scored in the CL final.

Smicer

Ardent

What's happening now with Whelan and co sniping at the manager is exactly what was happening during the last, dark days of Houllier's reign.

I don't begrudge Whelan or any other former Liverpool legend airing their views on Liverpool FC - they care about the club passionately and they've earned their right to comment on the state of it. Did you hear Whelan on TV the other night talking about "our club" and comparing it to others in the Premiership?

Chucky the tree

midget lord wrote: »

The season before Torres signed for LFC he was linked with the mancs.




The mancs went 25 years without winning the league.

Chelsea went 49 years without winning the league.

I use the latter as you consider them to be a big club.

Yes, consider. If you asked me about united in the 80's my answer would be different,same with chelsea before there recent success.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Yes, Aquilani, a man who loves Roma as much as Gerrard loves Liverpool. I imagine it took a lot for him to want to leave Roma, what else other than a top team could have enticed him?

I believe Wenger said a few weeks ago that he had his eye on Aquilani.

Champions league football I'm sure played a huge part in it. As I said, I believe no big club was in for Aquilani at the time, Arsenal are not a big club either.

The Dutch league no longer carries that much prestige, so that coupled with their failure to do anything worth of note in recent memory in the CL is the reason why they are no longer a "big club".

I still think winning a Dutch league title is better then finishing 3rd or 4th in the PL.

I believe Man U attempted to sign him on more than one occasion. Also, you are right in a way, but now that he has proven himself, he could go to any other big club he wanted. Yet he's not being a petulant brat and he's perfectly happy at Liverpool.

He was perfectly happy at Madrid for years when they won nothing, he seems like that type of players to be honest. It will be interesting to see what will happen to Gerrard, torres, Masch etc if we miss out on CL this year or continue to miss out on the league title.

He was still a youngish man at the time, unhappy at the "cold" and "distant" manager he had who never given him a pat on the back. His head was turned by the "warm" Mourinho, but he saw sense soon enough.

Saw sense? He might look at his medal cabinet and disagree. Gerrard will only be happy winning trophies, he's not being doing that recently at Liverpool.

Alonso always wanted to go back to Spain. He had given us five seasons as well as having a wife and new child so whatever. Mascherano is perhaps also a man influenced by the girlfriend too.

Or maybe there just two players influenced by success and trophies?

I don't know. What I do know is that it is a incredibly difficult league where so many obstacles have a rose such as Man U's rise to prominence, Abramovich's millions, Man U's resurgence and now perhaps even the millions of City. Give us an arab to rival City and we'll see how Rafa does then.

But this isn't just recently. What did we do in the mid 90's when chelsea had nothing and the only rival was United? Houllier didn't crack the league either.

Quality players wouldn't stick around if they thought that was the case, especially players who could easily ply their trade in Spain with Barca or Real. And yes, maybe they do think a league title is around the corner, nothing wrong with that. Would you prefer a defeatist attitude?

Gerrard has been here 5 years since 2004 and we haven't won anything, how long will Masch and torres have to wait? So you think this guys will be happyto stay at liverpool if they win no major trophies simply because they can play for a "big club"?

noodler

Hamann, Finnan, Baros, Henchoz, Hyypia, Dudek, Riise, Kewell (not his fault he turned out crap - loads of competition for him), McAllister, Barmby, Litmanen, did he sign Murphy or was he from the youths?

The Houllier reign, IMO, wasn't quite as different to the Rafa one as some make out.

However, you had a faltering Newcastle rather than billionaire Chelsea as competition to go along with Arsenal and Chelsea.

Boggles

midget lord

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes, consider. If you asked me about united in the 80's my answer would be different,same with chelsea before there recent success.

So your list of big clubs changes consistently? Where is the cut-off? For instance, lets say the mancs go 5 years without winning the leage, do they fall off your list?

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Champions league football I'm sure played a huge part in it. As I said, I believe no big club was in for Aquilani at the time, Arsenal are not a big club either.

And so the list becomes even smaller. At this stage we are probably down to maybe 6 teams in all of Europe. Surely you realise that that is simply not the case.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He was perfectly happy at Madrid for years when they won nothing, he seems like that type of players to be honest. It will be interesting to see what will happen to Gerrard, torres, Masch etc if we miss out on CL this year or continue to miss out on the league title.

Not only have you said that, LFC, the team you 'support' are no longer a big club, you now say that Torres is happy not to win trophies. I post quite a lot on LFC fora but never have I had the misfortune of virtually meeting a person such as you. You have absolutely no comprehension of what it means to be a fan or what it means to truly support a team. I find your posts to be insulting and massively uninformed.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Saw sense? He might look at his medal cabinet and disagree. Gerrard will only be happy winning trophies, he's not being doing that recently at Liverpool.

If Gerrard wins the league with LFC before he retires, he will have won every medal available to him. Plus he captained his hometown club to win the European cup.



I would like to finish off this post by saying that I cant reply any further as I have to head off to Muse (its a hard life).

If you actually do call yourself a support of LFC, I really think you need to re-evaluate what it means to be so.

Mr Alan

noodler wrote: »

Hamann, Finnan, Baros, Henchoz, Hyypia, Dudek, Riise, Kewell (not his fault he turned out crap - loads of competition for him), McAllister, Barmby, Litmanen, did he sign Murphy or was he from the youths?

The Houllier reign, IMO, wasn't quite as different to the Rafa one as some make out.

Hamann-Mascherano
Finnan-Johnson
Baros-Torres
Henchoz-Agger
Hyypia-Skrtel
Dudek-Reina
Riise-Aurelio
Kewell-Babel
McAllister-Alonso
Barmby-Aquilani
Litmanen-Benayoun

i've incl Aquilani & Johnson there despite the early stages of their Liverpool careers. Particularly in the case of Johson, i think he has already shown that he will quite easily surpass Finnan. & in regards to Aquilani, well, i just put him in for the sake of it, could have have been Sissoko or Kuyt & there is numerous other very good buys that could have been incl.

I think Rafa beats him everywhere convincingly, except centre halves. and even there its arguable for Henchoz/Agger & both lads are young & will no doubt improve.

We've also won the Champions League, a comp we couldnt even dream about winning under Houllier, and set numerous club records for points totals in the league.

I know you don't particularly like tha man, but come on, to say their reigns are more similar than people make out is laughable.

Headshot

Alan did you finally hear Dave calling ya

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

We've also won the Champions League, a comp we couldnt even dream about winning under Houllier, and set numerous club records for points totals in the league.

Funny that you think Houllier had so little to do with the Champions League win considering it was basically his squad of players, that he assembled, that won it

Also, Rafa has yet to do any better in the league then Houllier who also came runner up.

Club records for point totals actually count for **** all Alan. if there is no title at the end of it who really gives a ****?

SlickRic

kryogen wrote: »

Club records for point totals actually count for **** all Alan. if there is no title at the end of it who really gives a ****?

in terms of the record books, nobody could give a f***. absolutely.

in terms of how we've progressed over the last few years, it means a decent amount though.

remember utd have been spoilt with success, so there's no need for you to look towards those sorts of stats for signs of progress.

it is relevant for a club building towards getting to that position.