Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

ntlbell

K-9 wrote: »

For Spurs.

He isn't a top 4 First team starter.

He doesn't want to be a squad player.

Ironically, Keane is proof of a bad Rafa (debatable) buy. You arguing otherwise tells me a lot.

do spurs not play in the same league as liverpool? is he scoring them against teams liverpool dont play?

you asked who can manage him, someone obviously has, as his record suggests.

why would a player of keane's quality want to be a squad player? why pay 20 mil for a squad player|

my sides are splitting.

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

when you play one of the best strikers in the league in a team full of mediocrity

you probably get frustrated.

stevie g has never let roar for stupid passes.

given his team mates a mouthful

and moaned constantly about being played in the wrong position publicly in the press

this shirt looks creased

nonsense keane is actually a negative influence on the game,
There's no issue with a player especially your captain turning around when you do something wrong the odd time.

At least gerrard has that balls to come out to admit he was wrong and that playing where rafa says for the team is the right thing to do.

Keane just ran about drifted out of position and tossed about with the ball, one of the best strikers in the league? He blows hot and cold sure he'll grab a hat-trick and then not score for 7 games, but overall I'm actually arguing against myself here because I just don't believe he should of been at the club his best position is Steven Gerrard's current position and he's not a patch on Steven Gerrard.

whatawaster

kryogen wrote: »

i dont fully agree with that statement, i think Keane could do a job for a top four team, i mean if United had Berba and Keane together (very hypothetical) do you not think their great partnership at Spurs would continue to flourish?

Oddly enough i remember how many pool fans at the time were raving about how they got the better striker! now he isnt good enough to be a top 4 striker?

he wasnt right for the system Rafa uses, and this makes a pretty excellent arguement of why he should never have been bought and was a bad buy of course But if he was in a team who actually provided a strike partner for him and gave them time to gel there is no reason why he wouldnt be good enough for a top 4 team

he is definitely good enough for a top 4 squad, just not good enough to start for pool with Gerrard and Torres in the team. And we can't afford 19m luxurys on the bench

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

goal every 2.4 games over 8 seasons?

i guess no manager has cracked it yet :rolleyes:

And he regularly goes on goal droughts, Torres doesn't.

Keane works when playing of a supplier, which was why Rafa wanted Barry.

ntlbell

K-9 wrote: »

And he regularly goes on goal droughts, Torres doesn't.

then why buy him :rolleyes:

K-9 wrote: »

Keane works when playing of a supplier, which was why Rafa wanted Barry.

then why buy him :rolleyes:

this is really too easy

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

And he regularly goes on goal droughts, Torres doesn't.

Keane works when playing of a supplier, which was why Rafa wanted Barry.

depends on your definiton of drought i guess, has Torres not gone a few games without a goal at some point in his liverpool career? ill check if needs be, just pretty sure i remember a little streak where he didnt score for a few games

not having a pop, just saying nobodys perfect!

pretty much all strikers work off a supplier in one way or another man, Torres is excellent, and can often make goals himself out of nothing, but without the supply from Benayoun or Gerrard or *insert name here* he wouldnt get as many goals as he does

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

he is definitely good enough for a top 4 squad, just not good enough to start for pool with Gerrard and Torres in the team. And we can't afford 19m luxurys on the bench

yet vorinin is?

lucas is?

......

I could go on....lol

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

then why buy him :rolleyes:


then why buy him :rolleyes:

this is really too easy

He didn't want to.

ntlbell

kryogen wrote: »

depends on your definiton of drought i guess, has Torres not gone a few games without a goal at some point in his liverpool career? ill check if needs be, just pretty sure i remember a little streak where he didnt score for a few games

not having a pop, just saying nobodys perfect!

pretty much all strikers work off a supplier in one way or another man, Torres is excellent, and can often make goals himself out of nothing, but without the supply from Benayoun or Gerrard or *insert name here* he wouldnt get as many goals as he does

he's gone 6 games without scoring.

i don't think keane has in a totenham shirt

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

when you play one of the best strikers in the league in a team full of mediocrity

you probably get frustrated.

stevie g has never let roar for stupid passes.

given his team mates a mouthful

and moaned constantly about being played in the wrong position publicly in the press

this shirt looks creased

Stevie G has let roar, he has more class than Keane! :eek:

Kryogen wrote:

i dont fully agree with that statement, i think Keane could do a job for a top four team, i mean if United had Berba and Keane together (very hypothetical) do you not think their great partnership at Spurs would continue to flourish?

I agree. Pool didn't have a Berba! We could have had Barry!

We could ave been a contenda, we where!
Without Keane!

Look, he could have worked out, he could have been here this season and it still wouldn't have worked out!

ntlbell

mayordenis wrote: »

He didn't want to.

link?

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

yet vorinin is?

No but at 20million cheaper we have little choice

ntlbell wrote: »

lucas is?

yes

ntlbell wrote: »

I could go on....lol

please god don't

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

link?

No problem.

kryogen

mayordenis wrote: »

He didn't want to.

now im sorry, but is he the manager or isnt he?

how can you give him credit when he signs good players, Torres, and let him off the hook when they dont work out, Keane

He is on the record when he signed Keane talking him up and being very happy to have signed him

Too many excuses are made for Rafa and thats what makes him such an easy target for people

He isnt the best manager in the world, he isnt he worst.....all managers make bad decisions and signings but you have to let them own them!

mayordenis

kryogen wrote: »

now im sorry, but is he the manager or isnt he?

how can you give him credit when he signs good players, Torres, and let him off the hook when they dont work out, Keane

He is on the record when he signed Keane talking him up and being very happy to have signed him

Too many excuses are made for Rafa and thats what makes him such an easy target for people

He isnt the best manager in the world, he isnt he worst.....all managers make bad decisions and signings but you have to let them own them!

Seriously I don't think I'll bother continueing this,
It's so well known that rafa had a first choice and Parry and others went above his head on this one.

He is the manager and he had to deal with idiots.

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

do spurs not play in the same league as liverpool? is he scoring them against teams liverpool dont play?

you asked who can manage him, someone obviously has, as his record suggests.

why would a player of keane's quality want to be a squad player? why pay 20 mil for a squad player|

my sides are splitting.

Torres?

Nah, Spurs don't play in the same League.
Nah, he doesn't play against teams Liverpool play against.

Well, those who sign him, i.e. managers, manage. Is there a bigger waste of money over a career?

You moan about €20 Million and the moan about no back up this year!

ntlbell wrote: »

then why buy him :rolleyes:


then why buy him :rolleyes:

this is really too easy

You don't read anything, do you?
I said already I never agreed with his signing.



Why am I not surprised you ignored that?

Why do the likes of you pay so much attention to a small clubs thread?

whatawaster

Rafa wanted Keane. He was at the bottom of his wanted list though and he
didn't want to blow his whole budget on him

ntlbell

mayordenis wrote: »

Seriously I don't think I'll bother continueing this,
It's so well known that rafa had a first choice and Parry and others went above his head on this one.

He is the manager and he had to deal with idiots.

ah, cant get hold of that link?

lmfao

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

he's gone 6 games without scoring.

i don't think keane has in a totenham shirt

Who?

ntlbell

K-9 wrote: »

Torres?

Nah, Spurs don't play in the same League.
Nah, he doesn't play against teams Liverpool play against.

Well, those who sign him, i.e. managers, manage. Is there a bigger waste of money over a career?

You moan about €20 Million and the moan about no back up this year!




You don't read anything, do you?
I said already I never agreed with his signing.



Why am I not surprised you ignored that?

Why do the likes of you pay so much attention to a small clubs thread?

some nicer ninja edit

so you, a mere mortal, with no mangement exp.

prob no prof football exp

can make better calls than rafa.

i think i see were your going

kryogen

mayordenis wrote: »

Seriously I don't think I'll bother continueing this,
It's so well known that rafa had a first choice and Parry and others went above his head on this one.

He is the manager and he had to deal with idiots.

I know the arguements pool fans make on this subject, i just dont understand the reasoning!

Do you believe that Rafa is a weak manager? do you believe that he would not walk if a player was brought in over his head?

do you think that Rafa had not identified him as a tranfer target?

He wasnt his number one choice?? so what!!!! you dont always get your number one choice! he was still his choice!

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

ah, cant get hold of that link?

lmfao

I said no problem in the hope you would just leave.

leninbenjamin

I'm just going to weigh in on the Keane thing. He was not a Rafa buy. End of.

It's pretty well documented everywhere that Parry was the main man behind the purchase of Keane. Considering how large the Irish diaspora it made economic sense. If you can't read between the lines to figure this out you shouldn't really be broaching the subject. It became pretty obvious about 6 weeks in that Benitez had no intention of accommodating Keane.

ntlbell

K-9 wrote: »

Who?

T - O - R - E - S

L I V E R P O O L S N U M B E R N I N E

mayordenis

kryogen wrote: »

I know the arguements pool fans make on this subject, i just dont understand the reasoning!

Do you believe that Rafa is a weak manager? do you believe that he would not walk if a player was brought in over his head?

do you think that Rafa had not identified him as a tranfer target?

He wasnt his number one choice?? so what!!!! you dont always get your number one choice! he was still his choice!

His first choice would of cost less, the issue was the financial controllers decided they knew best.
He's not a weak manager and it's a fairly stupid comment to make, he's attached to the club and in the end he won that little battle by getting rid of Keane and Parry? True or not?

ntlbell

mayordenis wrote: »

I said no problem in the hope you would just leave.

i see you meant no i cant get a link because there is no such link rafa never said he didn't want him and ntl you got me again

but i'll continue to try and deflect it with my very poor attempt at humour and hope i just get thanked

it's ok, you put the words together and join in the fun here.

ntlbell

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I'm just going to weigh in on the Keane thing. He was not a Rafa buy. End of.

It's pretty well documented everywhere that Parry was the main man behind the purchase of Keane. Considering how large the Irish diaspora it made economic sense. If you can't read between the lines to figure this out you shouldn't really be broaching the subject. It became pretty obvious about 6 weeks in that Benitez had no intention of accommodating Keane.

link?

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

i see you meant no i cant get a link because there is no such link rafa never said he didn't want him and ntl you got me again

but i'll continue to try and deflect it with my very poor attempt at humour and hope i just get thanked

it's ok, you put the words together and join in the fun here.

This above makes no sense.

Of course there is no link saying that, Rafa has a bit more class than most has tried to not take things into a public forum where possible.

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

link?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/feb/02/spurs-bid-for-robbie-keane

K-9

Are people defending the same player who even Dunphy said should have been dragged of at half time for a flick at a good chance.

Keane was given a last chance by Rafa. Keane wasted it. Nobody else.

He's very talented, no doubt, but he should be in Knock.

ntlbell

mayordenis wrote: »

This above makes no sense.

Of course there is no link saying that, Rafa has a bit more class than most has tried to not take things into a public forum where possible.

so you were in the board room?

or are you just making up stories?

where did you read it?

toilet door in the kop?

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

T - O - R - E - S

L I V E R P O O L S N U M B E R N I N E

Worst attempt ever Ntl.

mayordenis

ntlbell wrote: »

so you were in the board room?

or are you just making up stories?

where did you read it?

toilet door in the kop?

Here it's no my fault if your blind. If you can't see that him moving out the door with Parry as slightly circumspect then, well it's on you.

ntlbell

K-9 wrote: »

Worst attempt ever Ntl.

nope it was 6 straight games of poor attempts by nando

but sure, keane missed a flick of a chance.

begone!

laughable

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

some nicer ninja edit

so you, a mere mortal, with no mangement exp.

prob no prof football exp

can make better calls than rafa.

i think i see were your going

Keane was a disaster Ntl. Said so myself.

You know better than Rafa though!

A CL Winner, UEFA Cup, a 2 time La Liga winner!

:eek:

How was that knock on the head? How's the Amnesia?

kryogen

mayordenis wrote: »

His first choice would of cost less, the issue was the financial controllers decided they knew best.
He's not a weak manager and it's a fairly stupid comment to make, he's attached to the club and in the end he won that little battle by getting rid of Keane and Parry? True or not?

wasnt a comment, was a question.....if you think someone can be brought in over a managers head and the manager just accepts it, he is weak

Rafa got rid of Parry? like that is why Parry is no longer at the club? hmmm......

Yes it was a great victory with Keane, he really showed who is boss and made a loss on a player while the club are in financial difficulty

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

nope it was 6 straight games of poor attempts by nando

but sure, keane missed a flick of a chance.

begone!

laughable

:rolleyes:

ntlbell

K-9 wrote: »

Keane was a disaster Ntl. Said so myself.

You know better than Rafa though!

A CL Winner, UEFA Cup, a 2 time La Liga winner!

:eek:

How was that knock on the head? How's the Amnesia?

It was a 6ft framed photograph of roy keane holding up another league trophy.

ouch.

you said you didn't agree with him buying keane.

so you had better innsight than a manager of his stature?

sad really isn't it

mayordenis

kryogen wrote: »

wasnt a comment, was a question.....if you think someone can be brought in over a managers head and the manager just accepts it, he is weak

He didn't just accept it, he sold him at the next oppurtunity.

kryogen wrote: »

Rafa got rid of Parry? like that is why Parry is no longer at the club? hmmm......

Parry has been replaced by Christian Purslow.

kryogen wrote: »

Yes it was a great victory with Keane, he really showed who is boss and made a loss on a player while the club are in financial difficulty

He keeps Keane for longer he sacrifices more poor performances and loosing more money down the line, cut your (in this case someone elses) loses.

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

It was a 6ft framed photograph of roy keane holding up another league trophy.

ouch.

you said you didn't agree with him buying keane.

so you had better innsight than a manager of his stature?

sad really isn't it

It's early on a Saturday morning.

I'll give you that!

Stop arguing with yourself.

noodler

I always try and stay somewhere in between the die hards and the trolls when it comes to the Liverpool forum.

I have defended Rafa and the team plenty over the last few weeks but he can't be absolved of the Keane incident. Keane was NOT given every chance K-9. He was given 6 monthes. A handful of games he was left in the bench to stew whilst far more inexperienced and ineffectual players were brought on in his place.

There was a contribution, 7 goals and plenty of contributions - setting up Torres for the winner against against Everton at Goodison?

Now we can easily qualify all the above by saying we had to sell in January to get our money back, and thats fine, but if Rafa made a choice to sell for money last January then something should have been done to replace Keane. I for one feel Keane would have been perfectly happy to stay here given Liverpool are regulars in four competitions AND if the manager actually told him he was wanted.

Even if Keane was forced on Rafa, the right thing to do would have been to quit his position as a matter of principle rather than take it out on the player. Hell even keeping stum and using the player when Torres or Gerrard were injured over the last 12 monthes (far too often) would have sufficed. No, instead we took 15 million back and did nothing with the money in an attacking sense.

Even a Robbie Keane not playing terrifically at Spurs atm would be a better option than Voronin or N'Gog when it comes to getting on the ball in the final third and leading some kind of build-up.

Anyway, rant over.

K-9

I accept your well argued points Noodler. Well argued points.

Personally, I think you have to balance what happened after Keane left with what may have happened if he stayed.

Think everybody would prefer he was still there as back up, I'd love Crouch personally.

But was it realistic?

kryogen

mayordenis wrote: »

He didn't just accept it, he sold him at the next oppurtunity.



Parry has been replaced by Christian Purslow.



He keeps Keane for longer he sacrifices more poor performances and loosing more money down the line, cut your (in this case someone elses) loses.

Yeah, im aware Parry is gone just find it amusing that you honestly believe that Parry is gone cause Rafa said so

You can make the arguement that if he had kept Keane longer he would have got less money, you can also make the arguement if he kept Keane longer and then sold him he would have made more money.... bit of a moot point.

Thought Keane was a bad signing for ye when it happened, quite happy it failed miserably and hopeful Rafa makes many more signings like that tbh

What else would you expect from a united fan

leninbenjamin

ntlbell wrote: »

link?

here you go:

It is difficult to escape the conclusion that Keane's particular treatment from Benítez stems from the manager's attempt to secure control over Liverpool's transfer policy as part of his next contract with the club.

The Liverpool manager wanted Keane in place only after Gareth Barry had been acquired from Aston Villa last summer, with Xabi Alonso sacrificed to raise the additional funds, only to be overruled by the club's American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, and the chief executive, Rick Parry. Keane, it seems, is the one paying the price.

from the Guardian

kryogen

leninbenjamin wrote: »

here you go:



from the Guardian

Eh, should i point out to you that thats an opinion by the writer of the article and not a fact? or do you realise this yourself?

ntlbell

leninbenjamin wrote: »

here you go:



from the Guardian

no, not from some journalist.

show me where rafa said he didn't want him

show me where the board or someone else said they did and bought him anyway

not opinions

some hard facts

kryogen

noodler wrote: »

I always try and stay somewhere in between the die hards and the trolls when it comes to the Liverpool forum.

I have defended Rafa and the team plenty over the last few weeks but he can't be absolved of the Keane incident. Keane was NOT given every chance K-9. He was given 6 monthes. A handful of games he was left in the bench to stew whilst far more inexperienced and ineffectual players were brought on in his place.

There was a contribution, 7 goals and plenty of contributions - setting up Torres for the winner against against Everton at Goodison?

Now we can easily qualify all the above by saying we had to sell in January to get our money back, and thats fine, but if Rafa made a choice to sell for money last January then something should have been done to replace Keane. I for one feel Keane would have been perfectly happy to stay here given Liverpool are regulars in four competitions AND if the manager actually told him he was wanted.

Even if Keane was forced on Rafa, the right thing to do would have been to quit his position as a matter of principle rather than take it out on the player. Hell even keeping stum and using the player when Torres or Gerrard were injured over the last 12 monthes (far too often) would have sufficed. No, instead we took 15 million back and did nothing with the money in an attacking sense.

Even a Robbie Keane not playing terrifically at Spurs atm would be a better option than Voronin or N'Gog when it comes to getting on the ball in the final third and leading some kind of build-up.

Anyway, rant over.

This is an excellent post and gives me renewed hope that there are level headed Liverpool fans out there

Thank you

UnitedIrishman

There are two sides to every story and to be honest if Rafa came out and said Keane was a Liverpool hating crack addict, 99% of Pool fans seem willing to believe it. Sure Parry isn't there anymore but you have to seperate the truth from what you want to believe. For example, today Fergie came out and said that Kuszcak was laughing when he was talking to MUTV about VDS. Now unless I saw that interview, I wouldn't believe it for a second.

Whether or not it's true Benitez made a balls of the situation.

K-9

Keane's attitude was the problem.

No Top 4 manager would put up with it. He was basically doing a Tevez or a Berbatov.
It isn't the Liverpool way.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

Hamann-Mascherano
Finnan-Johnson
Baros-Torres
Henchoz-Agger
Hyypia-Skrtel
Dudek-Reina
Riise-Aurelio
Kewell-Babel
McAllister-Alonso
Barmby-Aquilani
Litmanen-Benayoun

i've incl Aquilani & Johnson there despite the early stages of their Liverpool careers. Particularly in the case of Johson, i think he has already shown that he will quite easily surpass Finnan. & in regards to Aquilani, well, i just put him in for the sake of it, could have have been Sissoko or Kuyt & there is numerous other very good buys that could have been incl.

I think Rafa beats him everywhere convincingly, except centre halves. and even there its arguable for Henchoz/Agger & both lads are young & will no doubt improve.

We've also won the Champions League, a comp we couldnt even dream about winning under Houllier, and set numerous club records for points totals in the league.

I know you don't particularly like tha man, but come on, to say their reigns are more similar than people make out is laughable.

Johnson has already shown he will surpass Finnan? I thoroughly and wholeheartedly disagree. He has yet to surpass Arbeloa in a defensive sense tbh.

The main point of my post was to all those who said Houllier was an awful manager for us. However the comparisons with Rafa are not quite as distinct as you would like to believe. There is always the European Cup when it comes to Honours but Houllier won a few other trophies by the same token.

Don't tell me I don't like the man either, use your 'arguing' words but don't resort to that just because you are struggling for points. Plenty of your own comparisons there are just that - extremely comparable.

Kewell probably contributed more in his first 6 months here than Babel has in total to be perfectly honest in terms of tangible goals and assists - I would grant you that Babel would have started less games but you are the one using him as a comparison.

Litmanen or Benayoun? Benayoun has been excellent over the past 12 months but was an extremely mixed bag before that. Litmanen was fairly consistent for most of his time here - I certainly wouldn't rule that one as an instant Yossi win.

Riise or Aurelio? Now Riise was here alot longer so this isn't even fair but how can you say Aurelio has contribute more than him? The man has been fit probably less than 50% of the time he has been here.

After all that I will cede that Rafa's team would have the edge on Houllier's but by the same token, nearly every team in the prem has improved their squads over the the same period.

My initial argument was in league placings and trophies won. What is it? A Uefa cup, FA cup and two league cups against a CL and an FA cup? I know which I would prefer but I would dispute any claims of a chasm there.

Right now, we are struggling to finish for fourth. That is where Houllier left us as well. I have been defending Rafa and the team for weeks, I can't believe you would go for the "you don't like the man" crap as an argument.