Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

Keane's attitude was the problem.

No Top 4 manager would put up with it. He was basically doing a Tevez or a Berbatov.

Woah woah woah! no need for a bit of Berba Bashing!

he has not put a foot wrong in that sense since he came to a top 4 club



Edit: Noodles.......i think i love you......its refreshing to see someone who can see things objectively in football terms..... i wish i could do it more myself

im having a pretty gay day today i think

leninbenjamin

ntlbell wrote: »

no, not from some journalist.

show me where rafa said he didn't want him

show me where the board or someone else said they did and bought him anyway

not opinions

some hard facts

kryogen wrote: »

Eh, should i point out to you that thats an opinion by the writer of the article and not a fact? or do you realise this yourself?

eh, read the article maybe? it mentions the most obvious facts lads?

Rafa's favourite formation, going back all the way to when he made his name with real madrid B's I believe, is 4-2-3-1. Can any of you, ever, point to a time when Keane has been successful as a lone front man to fit such a formation? I can't, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree with me when I say that's a role that doesn't suit him.

Those are two pretty conflicting facts right there if you were to believe Benitez initiated the transfer lads. Open your goggles a wee bit.

Btw, that's not to say i don't agree with Noodler's opinion on the matter. I agree with everything he says there. But that doesn't exclude the obvious, that Benitez didn't want Keane as a purchase.

K-9

noodler wrote: »

Johnson has already shown he will surpass Finnan?

The main point of my post was to all those who said Houllier was an awful manager for us. However the comparisons with Rafa are not quite as distinct as you would like to believe. There is always the European Cup when it comes to Honours but Houllier won a few other trophies by the same token.

Don't tell me I don't like the man either, use your 'arguing' words but don't resort to that just because you are struggling for points. Plenty of your own comparisons there are just that - extremely comparable.

Kewell probably contributed more in his first 6 monthes here than Babel has in total to be perfectly honest in terms of tangible goals and asissts - I would grant you that Babel would have started less games but you are the one using him as a comparison.

Litmanen or Benayoun? Benayoun has been excellent over the past 12 monthes but was an extremely mixed bag before that. Litmanen was fairly consistent for most of his time here - I certainly wouldn't rule that one as an instant Yossi win.

Riise or Aurelio? Now Riise was here alot longer so this isn't even fair but how can you say Aurelio has contribute more than him? The man has been fit probably less than 50% of the time he has been here.

After all that I will cede that Rafa's team would have the edge on Houllier's but by the same token, nearly every team in the prem has improved their squads over the the same period.

My initial argument was in league placings and trophies won. What is it? A Uefa cup, FA cup and two league cups against a CL and an FA cup? I know which I would prefer but I would dispute any claims of a chasm there.

Right now, we are struggling to finish for fourth. That is where Houllier left us as well. I have been defending Rafa and the team for weeks, I can't believe you would go for the "you don't like the man" crap as an argument.

Overall I think the first team is better.

Comparing the squad players would be fairer. Johnson is too early, Arbeloa maybe a better comparison at the current moment, even though he's gone!

K-9

kryogen wrote: »

Woah woah woah! no need for a bit of Berba Bashing!

he has not put a foot wrong in that sense since he came to a top 4 club

Should of left it at Tevez, shouldn't I?

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

Keane's attitude was the problem.

No Top 4 manager would put up with it. He was basically doing a Tevez or a Berbatov.
It isn't the Liverpool way.

Keane, whatever we think of him as an upstart, has been unbelievably professional since leaving Liverpool. Other players would have taken all sorts of potshots at the manager and in-depth interviews into his shunnings etc.

One public display of dissatisfaction is hardly representative of his attitude.

Jesus by the logic, we could say it is Rafa's attitude that is th problem when it comes to dealing with his players but I wouldn't feel that way personally.

kryogen

leninbenjamin wrote: »

eh, read the article maybe? it mentions the most obvious facts lads?

Rafa's favourite formation, going back all the way to when he made his name with real madrid B's I believe, is 4-2-3-1. Can any of you, ever, point to a time when Keane has been successful as a lone front man to fit such a formation? I can't, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree with me when I say that's a role that doesn't suit him.

Those are two pretty conflicting facts right there if you were to believe Benitez initiated the transfer lads. Open your goggles a wee bit.

Btw, that's not to say i don't agree with Noodler's opinion on the matter. I agree with everything he says there. But that doesn't exclude the obvious, that Benitez didn't want Keane as a purchase.

Read the article, still an opinion, if you think Rafa didnt want to sign Keane its you who need the goggles opened a bit bud

Ok, so tell me this, and just this. please dont get side tracked, direct question!

Why did Rafa Benitez put Robbie Keanes name on a list of players that he wanted to sign when he was not going to fit into his plans?

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

Should of left it at Tevez, shouldn't I?

Of course! bash away at him all you want! i may even join in! although that would be some form of Liverpool-United alliance.....and that dont even look right on paper

UnitedIrishman

leninbenjamin wrote: »

eh, read the article maybe? it mentions the most obvious facts lads?

Rafa's favourite formation, going back all the way to when he made his name with real madrid B's I believe, is 4-2-3-1. Can any of you, ever, point to a time when Keane has been successful as a lone front man to fit such a formation? I can't, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree with me when I say that's a role that doesn't suit him.

Those are two pretty conflicting facts right there if you were to believe Benitez initiated the transfer lads. Open your goggles a wee bit.

Btw, that's not to say i don't agree with Noodler's opinion on the matter. I agree with everything he says there. But that doesn't exclude the obvious, that Benitez didn't want Keane as a purchase.

That's a very conspiracy theory way of coming to a conclusion on something. Add parts of a theory together and get a definitive answer - except for there are parts missing. It's like adding in "Benitez had a falling out with an Irishman in an unfortunate incident in Spain some years ago, so therefore he could not have possibly wanted Keane in."

I dunno, I'm tired of debating about this because it looks like no matter what Rafa does - he can do no wrong. But yet, wait for the vultures and the critics tear him apart when he eventually leave and hail the new messiah (whoever it may be).

K-9

noodler wrote: »

Keane, whatever we think of him as an upstart, has been unbelievably professional since leaving Liverpool. Other players would have taken all sorts of potshots at the manager and in-depth interviews into his shunnings etc.

One public display of dissatisfaction is hardly representative of his attitude.

Jesus by the logic, we could say it is Rafa's attitude that is th problem when it comes to dealing with his players but I wouldn't feel that way personally.

He might have had one dig, but again that was the meejia! Died
a death anyway.

Anyway, his behaviour since leaving Pool is hardly relevant. Who cares? Sorry!

Liverpool was a good move for the Missus though!

K-9

kryogen wrote: »

Of course! bash away at him all you want! i may even join in! although that would be some form of Liverpool-United alliance.....and that dont even look right on paper

LOL. it all comes down to opinion.

I'd prefer a Tevez than a Keane!

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

LOL. it all comes down to opinion.

I'd prefer a Tevez than a Keane!

Depends on the system i guess

Both of them are assests to the right team and system

K-9

kryogen wrote: »

Depends on the system i guess

Both of them are assests to the right team and system

Yep, both are fantastic players, just didn't work out for various reasons.

Stargate

noodler wrote: »

I always try and stay somewhere in between the die hards and the trolls when it comes to the Liverpool forum.

I have defended Rafa and the team plenty over the last few weeks but he can't be absolved of the Keane incident. Keane was NOT given every chance K-9. He was given 6 monthes. A handful of games he was left in the bench to stew whilst far more inexperienced and ineffectual players were brought on in his place.

There was a contribution, 7 goals and plenty of contributions - setting up Torres for the winner against against Everton at Goodison?

Now we can easily qualify all the above by saying we had to sell in January to get our money back, and thats fine, but if Rafa made a choice to sell for money last January then something should have been done to replace Keane. I for one feel Keane would have been perfectly happy to stay here given Liverpool are regulars in four competitions AND if the manager actually told him he was wanted.

Even if Keane was forced on Rafa, the right thing to do would have been to quit his position as a matter of principle rather than take it out on the player. Hell even keeping stum and using the player when Torres or Gerrard were injured over the last 12 monthes (far too often) would have sufficed. No, instead we took 15 million back and did nothing with the money in an attacking sense.

Even a Robbie Keane not playing terrifically at Spurs atm would be a better option than Voronin or N'Gog when it comes to getting on the ball in the final third and leading some kind of build-up.

Anyway, rant over.

Agree totally with everything said !!!!! Round of applause for that !!

CHD

Some United fans seem more concerned about Pool than Pool fans. Strange that.This thread makes me laugh! Bookmarked!

For Liverpool Rafa is the man.

PHB

What pisses me off about the whole Keane debate is that everyone talks about whether or not Rafa was right to sell off Keane and such, but everybody ignores the fact that he was utterly stupid to buy him in the first place.

Torres was the front man, Gerrard was behind. Keane could only fit into one of those roles. The wings were very very weak, and yet Benetiz instead of spending 20 million on a winger spent 20 million on a striker. I don't care if Benetiz wanted Barry first, his second choice was a bad one. Should bought somebody who could advance the team. To accomodate Keane full-time, he had to split up Gerrard and Torres, and when he couldn't do that, he passed him on. It was just a stupid stupid stupid transfer.

~Rebel~

jesus christ, last night in here was a fukin train wreck.

On Keane, i think the potential plan was to move Gerrard back into attacking CM and play Keane off Torres. Keane turned out not to be able to fulfill this role sufficiently and was sold on. A bad buy, rectified quickly.

I saw at one point here, ntlbell arguing that Keane never got a proper run in the team... ... ...up to december last season the only person who started more then Keane was Carra

SlickRic

the whole keane thing was a bit of a debacle.

he shouldn't have come.

this is the main issue.

but rafa's handling of keane was not great. anyone can patently see that. people who talk about keane's attitude are clutching at straws.

1) it wasn't bad, apart from flailing arms every so often. that's hardly a damning verdict on the man.

2) either way, Rafa is paid to handle personalities like him.

i believe he would have stayed if he'd felt wanted. that doesn't take away from the fact he shouldn't have been signed in the first place. and his refusal to buy further back up has been shown up a year later. yes we went on a run; but that doesn't fully take away from the fact we are now light in that area.

crouch, i believe, he handled correctly. it's just a pity he didn't stay. and now he's ended up in the same position he was here, at Spurs.

KevIRL

This whole thread being replicated on Soccer Saturday at the mo..

Headshot

KevIRL wrote: »

This whole thread being replicated on Soccer Saturday at the mo..

cheers

ill get the popcorn

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

He might have had one dig, but again that was the meejia! Died
a death anyway.

Anyway, his behaviour since leaving Pool is hardly relevant. Who cares? Sorry!

Liverpool was a good move for the Missus though!

You said Keane's attitude was the problem!

I assumed you meant some sort of public display of bing pissed at being subbed.

blackbetty69

as fairclough said, we would only be going backwards if we sacked rafa.. if a new man came in, more than likely everything would be changed aroud to suit his management style so this could take a while.. its not rafas fault imo, jus was unlucky with injuries. we wil pick it up im sure

eZe^

It's a bit ridiculous that people are saying you can truly estimate a players worth to a team within his first six months of playing for them. Each player should be given at least 12 months to prove their worth, and imo Rafa was too afraid to take the risk of enduring a financial hit on Keane. I think that's a strong indication of Rafa's general approach to management.

Mr Alan

eZe^ wrote: »

I think that's a strong indication of Rafa's general approach to management.

I think its more an indication to how tight the finances at the club are.

If Keane hadn't have been sold, that'd be 15m odd less that would presumably have been available in the summer transfer window.

Considering out net spend this summer was somewhere between a small profit or a couple of million spent, thats terrifying & a clearer picture of why when the team has 10+ first team regs injured, the squad looks paper thin & performs very poorly.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think its more an indication to how tight the finances at the club are.

If Keane hadn't have been sold, that'd be 15m odd less that would presumably have been available in the summer transfer window.

Considering out net spend this summer was somewhere between a small profit or a couple of million spent, thats terrifying & a clearer picture of why when the team has 10+ first team regs injured, the squad looks paper thin & performs very poorly.

I don't get your logic here (btw if it is going to come back to financial year/calendar year crap then we can leave it)

But, Keane was bought in Summer 08. The money got back for him in Winter 09 would still have been left over transfer funds.

Since we broke even (pretty much) in the summer just gone - why would not selling Keane have impacted on the summer's dealings? How would the Alonso/Arbeloa money have been hidden away?


Its a very round about kind of argument you are using, he should have spent the (separate) 15m on another forward player or kept Keane in my book then we would have been stronger on paper. You are saying that he had to sell Keane to finance the deals from the summer just gone which sounds like BS to me.

MrMatisse

Rafa isnt done but i wish those two american cnuts were.

Pool have a much smaller stadium than the other big 4, are hamstrung by huge debts and owners who thought they could make a fast buck.

Rafa has done well to keep them competitive given he has been at such a huge financial disadvantage.

whatawaster

noodler wrote: »

I don't get your logic here (btw if it is going to come back to financial year/calendar year crap then we can leave it)

But, Keane was bought in Summer 08. The money got back for him in Winter 09 would still have been left over transfer funds.

Since we broke even (pretty much) in the summer just gone - why would not selling Keane have impacted on the summer's dealings? How would the Alonso/Arbeloa money have been hidden away?


Its a very round about kind of argument you are using, he should have spent the (separate) 15m on another forward player or kept Keane in my book then we would have been stronger on paper. You are saying that he had to sell Keane to finance the deals from the summer just gone which sounds like BS to me.

If we hadn't sold Keane we would have had 15m less to spend this summer, obviously, otherwise Rafa either a)wouldn't have sold him, or b) replaced him in Jan if it wouldn't affect our Jan budget

ntlbell

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I saw at one point here, ntlbell arguing that Keane never got a proper run in the team... ... ...up to december last season the only person who started more then Keane was Carra

regardless of how many he started half a season is not giving a player time to settle in

especially when your the cause of him not settling

e.g. when on the bench bringing on muck instead of keane

dropping him after games he scored in

the list is endless

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

regardless of how many he started half a season is not giving a player time to settle in

especially when your the cause of him not settling

e.g. when on the bench bringing on muck instead of keane

dropping him after games he scored in

the list is endless

keane was rubbish, looked like a headless chicken running around tbh.

Parrys signing and a bad one.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think its more an indication to how tight the finances at the club are.

If Keane hadn't have been sold, that'd be 15m odd less that would presumably have been available in the summer transfer window.

Considering out net spend this summer was somewhere between a small profit or a couple of million spent, thats terrifying & a clearer picture of why when the team has 10+ first team regs injured, the squad looks paper thin & performs very poorly.

then why bleedin buy him!!!

it doesn't matter what way you try to spin if it was right or wrong.

the whole thing was an abundance of bad management decisions

this whole thread feels like a conversation with my daughter.

but she learns quicker

ntlbell

rarnes1 wrote: »

keane was rubbish, looked like a headless chicken running around tbh.

Parrys signing and a bad one.

7 goals x amount of assists

he's a goal every 2.4 games in the prem

1 in 2 since going back to spurs.

yes a headless chicken he was.

i'll ask it again, do you a link to anything from parry or rafa on who signed him?

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

7 goals x amount of assists

he's a goal every 2.4 games in the prem

1 in 2 since going back to spurs.

yes a headless chicken he was.

i'll ask it again, do you a link to anything from parry or rafa on who signed him?

yeah, I'll pm you it :rolleyes:

Do you think rafa treated him like he wanted him there?

Hasn't this been done to death ffs

Boggles

Jesus lads this one is not Rocket Surgery.

Rafa used Keane as a pawn to prove a point to the Owners and Parry.

Now it wasn't just any player, it was Robbie Keane, Captain of our national side. If Spurs didn't take Keane back, Benitiez realistically could have wrecked his career, just to prove a fooking point. It was a petty and pretty evil fooking thing to do, but not surpising.

What is surprising is Irish people on here backing a Spaniard to the hilt over something he blatantly did to one of our own so to speak.

People on here would get alot more respect if they stopped this Rafa walk on water bollix and admit at least in this incident he was completely in the wrong.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus lads this one is not Rocket Surgery.

Rafa used Keane as a pawn to prove a point to the Owners and Parry.

Now it wasn't just any player, it was Robbie Keane, Captain of our national side. If Spurs didn't take Keane back, Benitiez realistically could have wrecked his career, just to prove a fooking point. It was a petty and pretty evil fooking thing to do, but not surpising.

What is surprising is Irish people on here backing a Spaniard to the hilt over something he blatantly did to one of our own so to speak.

People on here would get alot more respect if they stopped this Rafa walk on water bollix and admit at least in this incident he was completely in the wrong.

Who cares what nationality Keane is, Rafa is one of our own.

Fromvert

But Rafa does walk on water. How can you not see this?

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus lads this one is not Rocket Surgery.

Rafa used Keane as a pawn to prove a point to the Owners and Parry.

Now it wasn't just any player, it was Robbie Keane, Captain of our national side. If Spurs didn't take Keane back, Benitiez realistically could have wrecked his career, just to prove a fooking point. It was a petty and pretty evil fooking thing to do, but not surpising.

What is surprising is Irish people on here backing a Spaniard to the hilt over something he blatantly did to one of our own so to speak.

People on here would get alot more respect if they stopped this Rafa walk on water bollix and admit at least in this incident he was completely in the wrong.

unfortunately true.

probably don't need the character assassination of Rafa and his supporters thrown in tbh though

ntlbell

rarnes1 wrote: »

yeah, I'll pm you it :rolleyes:

Do you think rafa treated him like he wanted him there?

Hasn't this been done to death ffs

so you don't have a link or any proof? you're just assuming?

you know what assumptions lead to right?

rafa treated him like an old sock.

him wanting him or not wanting him is NO excuse for a professional to treat another professional an international captain like dirt.

it was disgusting.

SlickRic

ntlbell wrote: »

it was disgusting.

don't pretend it was disgusting.

he was rafa's last choice for a transfer that summer.

once he was there, yes, rafa proceeded to use him in the boardroom battle.

but the disgusting thing wudv been having him rot in the reserves for the rest of his contract.

he didn't.

he sold him off.

now while it was bad man management, and the treatment of Keane wasn't ideal in terms of his career with liverpool, it was not disgusting or evil (as Boggles suggested).

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

but the disgusting thing wudv been having him rot in the reserves for the rest of his contract.

Amm, no he couldn't have, concrete laws in place to prevent anything like that from happening.

What he did was pretty fooking evil, putting his own interests at the detrement to another professional is evil in my book.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote:

putting his own interests at the detrement to another professional is evil in my book

do you think Alex Ferguson is evil?

Fromvert

Boggles wrote: »

Amm, no he couldn't have, concrete laws in place to prevent anything like that from happening.

What he did was pretty fooking evil, putting his own interests at the detrement to another professional is evil in my book.

He didn't want him so he sold him on after six months. In this time he started more then any other player except for Carragher.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Amm, no he couldn't have, concrete laws in place to prevent anything like that from happening.

What he did was pretty fooking evil, putting his own interests at the detrement to another professional is evil in my book.

fair enough if that's your actual definition of evil.

if keane had worked, he would have kept him. he didn't see him as a good signing in the end, then used the boardroom thing to help get rid of him at a loss.

not evil. just very unfortunate and dodgy man management.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Amm, no he couldn't have, concrete laws in place to prevent anything like that from happening.

What he did was pretty fooking evil, putting his own interests at the detrement to another professional is evil in my book.

he made a mistake in buying him, probably his biggest transfer mistake so far.
He then decided that Keane wasn't good enough for our starting 11, given that Gerrard and Torres are an outstanding forward partnership.
Therefore, as a saleable asset, he had to be sold and as soon as possible. For both Keane's sake and for Liverpool's sake.
You do not know the ins and outs of it. Rafa seen keane everyday in training.

Evil? Moronic assertion. An absolute insult to a manager who doesn't come out and criticise players for no reason, has not come out and done so re: Keane. Keane's nationality has nothing to do with anything.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

he made a mistake in buing him, probably his biggest transfer mistake so far.
He then decided that Keane wasn't good enough for our starting 11, given that Gerrard and Torres are an outstanding forward partnership.
Therefore, as a saleable asset, he had to be sold and as soon as possible. For both Keane's sake and for Liverpool's sake.
You do not know the ins and outs of it. Rafa seen keane everyday in training.

Evil? Moronic assertion. An absolute insult to a manager who doesn't come out and criticise players for no reason, has not come out and done so re: Keane. Keane's nationality has nothing to do with anything.

See this is why arguing with some people is like trying to push a rope.

You have completely turned it around and you are now making out Saint Rafa had Keanes best interests at heart and selling him after 5-6 months was for the players benefit and also Liverpools.

I pity you seriously if you thing that 100%.

Kess73

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus lads this one is not Rocket Surgery.

Rafa used Keane as a pawn to prove a point to the Owners and Parry.

Now it wasn't just any player, it was Robbie Keane, Captain of our national side. If Spurs didn't take Keane back, Benitiez realistically could have wrecked his career, just to prove a fooking point. It was a petty and pretty evil fooking thing to do, but not surpising.

What is surprising is Irish people on here backing a Spaniard to the hilt over something he blatantly did to one of our own so to speak.

People on here would get alot more respect if they stopped this Rafa walk on water bollix and admit at least in this incident he was completely in the wrong.

What the hell has nationalities have to do with it? In a later post you even call the act of selling Keane and how it was done as "pretty fooking evil"

Have you a problem with other nationalities, because the way you are throwing things about like "What is surprising is Irish people on here backing a Spaniard to the hilt over something he blatantly did to one of our own so to speak." and "captain of our national team" suggests you have some reason for highlighting the nationalities involved.

You could have made a similar point without bringing nationalities into it. Simply by leaving out your middle two paragraphs.

Poor form in my opinion, never thought you were the type to play on where people are from to try and elicite a response or to make a point.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Boggles

Kess73 wrote: »

What the hell has nationalities have to do with it? In a later post you even call the act of selling Keane and how it was done as "pretty fooking evil"

Have you a problem with other nationalities, because the way you are throwing things about like "What is surprising is Irish people on here backing a Spaniard to the hilt over something he blatantly did to one of our own so to speak." and "captain of our national team" suggests you have some reason for highlighting the nationalities involved.

You could have made a similar point without bringing nationalities into it.

Poor form in my opinion, never thought you were the type to play on where people are from to try and elicite a response or to make a point.

WTF are you on about?

Tis pretty simple.

I'm Irish, the vast majority in here are Irish, the vast majority of them support the Irish national team, Robbie Keane is the Irish team Captain and quite possibly our most important player.

I couldn't give a fook if Rafa was a Pakistani Postman.

Fromvert

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't, someone posted a page or so back, so I took it as golden. Yeah Reina obviously started more.

Edit: Just had a look there, havn't a breeze where I read that. I'm going crazy.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

See this is why arguing with some people is like trying to push a rope.

You have completely turned it around and you are now making out Saint Rafa had Keanes best interests at heart and selling him after 5-6 months was for the players benefit and also Liverpools.

I pity you seriously if you thing that 100%.

I've no doubt Keane wanted to succeed at Liverpool and his "best interest" was to do so.

But hey, who am i kidding. I don't give a crap about Robbie Keane. I care about Liverpool. A club who cannot afford a 20m signing warming the bench.
Therefore, what was done in the summer was done and couldn't be undone and selling Keane in january was the right thing to do. Keane was treated perfectly fine

By the way, in response to your earlier comment - i value the actions/opinions/rights/whatever of a Spaniard equal to that of any Irishman. The fact that you obviously don't says more about you

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Mr Alan

Boggles, why did you ignore my question?

Do you think Alex Ferguson is evil?