Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Kess73

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus I have been accused of many things but a BNP Sun reader.

Tis a first.

I take back bringing Nationalities into it though, and I apologise Kess.

I said if English you could speak for the BNP or write for the Sun.

Although you may not be a great candidate for the latter, as you tend to spell correctly.

You just bugged me with the nationality thing, and moreso because I did not expect it from you.

But I had my little bite back at you and you have taken back the nationality bit, so as far as I am concerned there are no hard feelings on it.

Funnily enough the actual point you were trying to make I would have agreed with, before you added the extra spice.

noodler

We challenged last season in the best manner we ever had in the PL.

This season I doubt we have a hope (felt that way after the Spurs game), people keep going on about the loss of Ronaldo but we are the ones really suffering from Madrid's FF spree in the summer.

It is an azming cycle, we wait years for a proper challenge, build up to nearly getting there and then the next season we are back to struggling for the top 4.

Its still early, teams will drop more points than last season but we'd be relying on Aquaman and Agger to fit right back in, for Carra to improve and for Gerrard and Torres to remain fit. We also need Aurelio back, Insua has really fallen from grace in the last 4 or 5 games, to the extent I wish Dossena was being given a chance quite frankly.

Anyway when you have the likes of City dropping points at home to Burnley it does give you hope for the season.

builttospill

Bump!

LOL :pac:

Villain

I think they need to look at the training methods or something, two more muscles pulled for Reira and Yossi. Can't see the fans supporting him much longer

Royale with Cheese

That bump took longer than I expected.

Headshot

so are liverpool done now ?

Nalz

Man City, Everton away, Blackburn away and then Arsenal.

Tough enough games following this poor run.

Dont be at yourself

I think they need to look at the training methods or something, two more muscles pulled for Reira and Yossi. Can't see the fans supporting him much longer

It's not as if the team has been playing particularly badly, though. We had 10 corners, 25 shots on goal, and they scored two goals against the run of play. We've also had a lot of injuries, and not all of these can be blamed on the training (Agger's back, Aquilani's ankle, Gerrard & Torres' injuries from the international sides).

If we're playing badly, not getting results and sending out our strongest side, there'll definitely be questions to be asked. But we're not at that stage yet.

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

so are liverpool done now ?

yes.

of course they are.

bar something monumental and defying all logic.

do you need to ask?

only the horrendously staunch could claim we have any hope.

SlickRic

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's not as if the team has been playing particularly badly, though. We had 10 corners, 25 shots on goal, and they scored two goals against the run of play.

hart barely made a save.

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

so are liverpool done now ?

No chance of the league for us.

Chelsea look unstoppable in fairness. Evens to win it is the bet of the year.

DM_7

Confidence, consistency and momentum are low at Pool now.

I don't see how Rafa going would help. Liverpool need to work through it as a group and if he is allowed to try and do it they may come out of it a stronger unit.

Villain

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's not as if the team has been playing particularly badly, though. We had 10 corners, 25 shots on goal, and they scored two goals against the run of play. We've also had a lot of injuries, and not all of these can be blamed on the training (Agger's back, Aquilani's ankle, Gerrard & Torres' injuries from the international sides).

If we're playing badly, not getting results and sending out our strongest side, there'll definitely be questions to be asked. But we're not at that stage yet.

I would have thought Rafa's transfers would take some blame, he left himself very short up front for the season and signed an injured replacment for Alonso.

Injuries happen title winners have enough to cover imo

Mr Alan

Headshot wrote: »

so are liverpool done now ?

done with, done in the title race? at the moment, its some hell of a mountain to climb & unless we go on a MONSTER run & Chelsea have serious serious problems i cant see us getting back 11 points., so yes title looks done at the moment.

done in the top 4?
ha ha, no. 3 points off 4th going through our worst run of results in a long long time. but performances have picked up last couple of games, so i don't think it'll be an issue.

rafa done at liverpool?
no. course not. sacking managers due to poor runs despite great work previous to that is not how succesful clubs should be run.

Mr Alan

Villain wrote: »

Injuries happen title winners have enough to cover imo

if we're judging us as title winners, i get your point, but we haven't won a league in 20 years?!

Mr Alan

DM-ICE wrote: »

Confidence, consistency and momentum are low at Pool now.

I don't see how Rafa going would help. Liverpool need to work through it as a group and if he is allowed to try and do it they may come out of it a stronger unit.

correct answer.

Villain

Mr Alan wrote: »

if we're judging us as title winners, i get your point, but we haven't won a league in 20 years?!

Well every pre-season Plenty of Pool fans seem to think so

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

hart barely made a save.

he made a few in fairness, thats without mentioning numerous goal mouth scrambles, players flinging themselves in front of the ball on the six yard line etc.

tonight was a very good performance imo.

spockety

Liverpool's hopes of winning the league would appear to be shot. It ain't over until it's over, but I wouldn't even bet a tenner on them winning the league now.

It's been such an awful start to the season, really disappointing, gutting actually, but that's football. You have to take the lows with the highs. (cue derision from people not worth debating with about something like "lolz there are no highs with Rafa!!!", etc.).

So from that perspective, no, Rafa is not done. I feel for him, the pressure must be immense.

Where to from here? Liverpool need to get everyone back fit, they need to click, and they need to demolish some poor team and go on a run. The fans need to stick by the team, stick by Rafa, and stick by each other.

Sneaking into the last 16 of the Champions League would be lovely, but being utterly honest, if I had to choose between winning the Europa League, or going through to the last 16 of the Champions League and progressing no further, I'd probably pick the trophy for this season. The FA Cup is still up for grabs and it would also be a nice piece off silverware to pick up. It goes without saying that 4th place simply has to be cemented, it would be unthinkable not to have CL football at Liverpool.

Having said that, we are continually put in peril by our ownership situation, and the lack of the required investment both on and off the pitch, to bring Liverpool to the level that Chelsea, Arsenal, and United are at. People don't like debating this issue, particularly opposition supporters, because it's much easier to just have pops at Rafa and some squad players and then slip back into the ether. But it is the absolute #1 issue at the club right now, and in the long term history of the club, the activities on the pitch over the last 2 months pale into insignificance compared to the activities off it.

Hicks and Gillett out, they are done.

spockety

spockety wrote: »

Liverpool's hopes of winning the league would appear to be shot. It ain't over until it's over, but I wouldn't even bet a tenner on them winning the league now.

It's been such an awful start to the season, really disappointing, gutting actually, but that's football. You have to take the lows with the highs. (cue derision from people not worth debating with about something like "lolz there are no highs with Rafa!!!", etc.).

So from that perspective, no, Rafa is not done. I feel for him, the pressure must be immense.

Where to from here? Liverpool need to get everyone back fit, they need to click, and they need to demolish some poor team and go on a run. The fans need to stick by the team, stick by Rafa, and stick by each other.

Sneaking into the last 16 of the Champions League would be lovely, but being utterly honest, if I had to choose between winning the Europa League, or going through to the last 16 of the Champions League and progressing no further, I'd probably pick the trophy for this season. The FA Cup is still up for grabs and it would also be a nice piece off silverware to pick up. It goes without saying that 4th place simply has to be cemented, it would be unthinkable not to have CL football at Liverpool.

Having said that, we are continually put in peril by our ownership situation, and the lack of the required investment both on and off the pitch, to bring Liverpool to the level that Chelsea, Arsenal, and United are at. People don't like debating this issue, particularly opposition supporters, because it's much easier to just have pops at Rafa and some squad players and then slip back into the ether. But it is the absolute #1 issue at the club right now, and in the long term history of the club, the activities on the pitch over the last 2 months pale into insignificance compared to the activities off it.

Hicks and Gillett out, they are done.

Good post.

Dont be at yourself

I would have thought Rafa's transfers would take some blame, he left himself very short up front for the season and signed an injured replacment for Alonso.

Injuries happen title winners have enough to cover imo

I don't really want to go down this road, but I'll just say that Rafa's hands have been largely tied. If Rafa was given 15 or 20 million net to spend each year, we could have a top class striker to cover Torres, and a top class winger to compete with Riera. As it was, he had to make do with buying the likes of N'gog and Voronin. As for Aquilani: we signed him for 4 years, not 4 months. The reason we got him cheap was because he was injured. If he wasn't, we'd have had to make do with a lesser player.

It should also be pointed out that summer signing Glen Johnson was immense tonight. He ripped Birmingham's left side to shreds time and time again.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

he made a few in fairness, thats without mentioning numerous goal mouth scrambles, players flinging themselves in front of the ball on the six yard line etc.

tonight was a very good performance imo.

it was high energy, but very little incisive play; very little.

they definitely gave it everything.

Brum defended very well, but it was generally on their 18yd line, not 6.

we shot too often from distance; lacking the quality to really break them down. though a ten man blanket is tough to play against.

i'm just overheating with frustration to be honest; i don't know what to think anymore.

Villain

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It should also be pointed out that summer signing Glen Johnson was immense tonight. He ripped Birmingham's left side to shreds time and time again.

Yep and as I said in another thread spending 18m on a RB is great but when there is no-one up front when Torres is injured you can supply all the ball you want but its no good if no-one can finish, I think tonight proved that too

Kess73

SlickRic wrote: »

yes.

of course they are.

bar something monumental and defying all logic.

do you need to ask?

only the horrendously staunch could claim we have any hope.

It pains me to say it about Liverpool FC, but you are totally right.

Title challenge is over already, Champions league hope is hanging by a thread as it is no longer in our own hands. Out of the league cup, and the only realistic bit of silverware that we are still in for is the FA cup.

I just hope that the team can take stock and consolidate and stop the rot soon, otherwise there could be a risk of a spectacular collapse leading to a finish outside of the top four.

I still think that a top four place is very achieveable, but if the current run continues for another month, and it could well do, then we, Liverpool fans, could be looking at a very uncomfortable final half to the season.

I don't mean anything like relegation by that comment, but I do mean something like scrapping for a Europa cup slot. Some will say that is impossible, but one win in nine games is not the form of a club that looks like putting a big run together.

I think Rafa needs to pull some rabbits from his hat between now and May to save his job. I hope he can do so.

Kess73

Villain wrote: »

Yep and as I said in another thread spending 18m on a RB is great but when there is no-one up front when Torres is injured you can supply all the ball you want but its no good if no-one can finish, I think tonight proved that too

Normally I agree with comments saying that there is no proper back up for Torres, but tonight did not prove that for one simple reason. On the basis of tonight's game the cover for Torres did do what he was meant to do, and that is to score a goal.

It would be more acurate to say that on the basis of other games this season that the lack of cover for Torres was telling, but tonight that accusation cannot be levelled at N'Gog.

He did his job tonight, and also hurt Birmingham by cheating, which whilst wrong and personally deserving of punishment, it still was the cause of a second goal.

Ardent

Poor dealings in recent transfer windows coming home to roost. And no, this is not the American's fault.

spockety

Villain wrote: »

Yep and as I said in another thread spending 18m on a RB is great but when there is no-one up front when Torres is injured you can supply all the ball you want but its no good if no-one can finish, I think tonight proved that too

In fairness, Liverpool took the lead tonight with a beautiful finish from Ngog. The problem we have is that goals were let in at the other end. Liverpool could have had Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo hanging around up the top of the pitch and that 45 yard screamer would still have gone in.

Liverpool are not keeping clean sheets, that is the problem!

Mr Alan

Villain wrote: »

Yep and as I said in another thread spending 18m on a RB is great but when there is no-one up front when Torres is injured you can supply all the ball you want but its no good if no-one can finish, I think tonight proved that too

this again.

we needed a RB, Arbeloa left, Johnson cost 17m. What top back up striker better than Babel,Kuyt & Ngog & starting RB would you have brought in for 17m (oh and one of the two had to come from Portsmouth as they owed us 7m for Crouch)

on top of this, i actually think Rafa intended on buying a striker before the americans refinanced & reduced his budget part way through the window.

our biggest loss, and where we've gone wrong this season imo has been Hypia.

Johnson has been a great buy.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

this again.

we needed a RB, Arbeloa left, Johnson cost 17m. What top back up striker better than Babel,Kuyt & Ngog & starting RB would you have brought in for 17m (oh and one of the two had to come from Portsmouth as they owed us 7m for Crouch)

on top of this, i actually think Rafa intended on buying a striker before the americans refinanced & reduced his budget part way through the window.

our biggest loss, and where we've gone wrong this season imo has been Hypia.

Johnson has been a great buy.

He has been. Just a shame that we don't still have Arbeloa, as I would love to have seen Arby at RB and Johnson given a run in the RM role. Everytime I have watched him play this season, I have always been left thinking that he would be excellent in that role.

m@cc@

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

If Rafa was given 15 or 20 million net to spend each year, we could have a top class striker to cover Torres, and a top class winger to compete with Riera.

He is.

www.liverpool-kop.com wrote:

In*

• Josemi – £2m - (failure)
• Antonio Nunez - Makeweight in Michael Owen sale - (failure)
• Luis Garcia - £6m (success)
• Xabi Alonso - £10.7m (success)
• Peter Crouch - £7m (success)
• Momo Sissoko - £5.3m (success)
• Sebastian Leto - £1.85m (failure)
• Gabriel Palletta - £2m (failure)
• Bolo Zenden – free (failure)
• Pepe Reina - £6m (success)
• Fernando Morientes - £8m (failure)
• Daniel Agger - £5.8m (success)
• Robbie Fowler – free (failure)
• Craig Bellamy - £6.5m (failure)
• Dirk Kuyt - £10m (success)
• Jermaine Pennant - £6.7m (failure)
• Mark Gonzalez - £1.5m (failure)
• Fabio Aurelio – free (success)
• Javier Mascherano - £17m (success)
• Fernando Torres - £22m (success)
• Alvero Arbeloa – £2m (success)
• Ryan Babel - £11.5m (failure)
• Yossi Benayoun - £5m (success)
• Scott Carson - £750,000 (failure)
• Lucas Leiva - £6m (failure)
• Andriy Voronin – free (failure)
• Diego Cavalieri - £3m (?)
• David Ngog - £1.5m (?)
• Robbie Keane - £20.3m (failure)
• Andrea Dossena - £7m (failure)
• Philipp Degen – free (failure)
• Martin Skrtel – £6.5m - (success)
• Albert Riera – £8m (failure)
• Glen Johnson - £18m (?)
• Alberto Aquilani - £20m (? - inclusive of all add-ons)
• Sotirios Kyrgiakos - £1.5m (?)

Total spend - £229.65m (not including signing on fees)

* Successes - 13
* Failures - 18
* Too early to say - 5

Out

• Michael Owen - £8m + Antonio Nunez in
• El Hadji Diouf - £2m
• Antonio Nunez - undisclosed
• Josemi – swap with Jan Kromkamp
• Bolo Zenden – free
• Vladimir Smicer - free
• Jerzy Dudek - free
• Igor Biscan – free
• Luis Garcia - undisclosed
• Robbie Fowler - free
• Djibril Cisse – £6m
• Xabi Alonso – £30m
• Harry Kewell – free
• Stephane Henchoz – free
• Stephen Warnock - £1.5m
• John Arne Riise - £3m
• Peter Crouch - £11m
• Momo Sissoko - £6m
• Craig Bellamy - £7.5m
• Mark Gonzalez - £500,000
• Djimi Traore - £2m
• Scott Carson - £3.75m
• Fernando Morientes - £3m
• Chris Kirkland – undisclosed
• Jan Kromkamp - undisclosed
• Robbie Keane – (up to) £19m
• Sebastian Leto - £3m
• Gabriel Palletta - £2m
• Sami Hyypia – free
• Alvero Arbeloa – £2m
• Darren Potter - £250,000
• Danny Guthrie - £2.5m

Total - £112.5m

Net spend since summer 2004 - £117.15m (not including signing on fees)

SlickRic

i can't f*cking believe that list of players has been posted up again.

ffs.

please please please let's not do this again.

Headshot

run for your life M@cc@ :pac:

m@cc@

Headshot wrote: »

run for your life M@cc@ :pac:

It's been done before has it? Oh well, maybe it might eventually sink in.

Kess73

SlickRic wrote: »

i can't f*cking believe that list of players has been posted up again.

ffs.

please please please let's not do this again.

Get two plane tickets to Oz, that way you and I should be able to make sure he never posts that list again.

The Muppet

m@cc@ wrote: »

It's been done before has it? Oh well, maybe it might eventually sink in.

Somehow I doubt it,


Where's the popcorn?

event

Mr Alan wrote: »

this again.

we needed a RB, Arbeloa left, Johnson cost 17m. What top back up striker better than Babel,Kuyt & Ngog & starting RB would you have brought in for 17m (oh and one of the two had to come from Portsmouth as they owed us 7m for Crouch)

on top of this, i actually think Rafa intended on buying a striker before the americans refinanced & reduced his budget part way through the window.

our biggest loss, and where we've gone wrong this season imo has been Hypia.

Johnson has been a great buy.

no it didnt.
ye could have got a player from someone else and paid for him in the same way pompey did with crouch, installments

im not getting into the whole arguement about 17m on johnson, he is top class.

but pool fans keep saying he didnt cost 17 million as ye were owed money from pompey.
but ye would have got that money from them anyway, so its not really a valid point

but no, rafa isnt done, but questions do need to be asked

Mr Alan

Albert Riera – £8m (failure) been good for us, excellent squad player
Sebastian Leto - £1.85m (failure) never played for us due to his passport being revoked due to italian government **** up
Craig Bellamy - £6.5m (failure) did ok for us, vital in getting to CL final, sold on at a profit to buy torres
Robbie Fowler – free (failure) free, scored when he got chances, every liverpool fan was delighted with that move tbh
Scott Carson - £750,000 (failure) couldnt get in ahead of Reina, sold for good profit
Lucas Leiva - £6m (failure)this lad has been spoken about again & again, whatever you wanna look at it, he is not a failure & has been avergae-outstanding for us this season
Philipp Degen – free (failure)free-injured in his first season,been very good in a couple of appearances this season

7 of the 18 are by no means failures!? wtf?! :eek:

also the likes of Johnson as undecided :rolleyes:

so if you reduce the players i've listed who most sane people wouldn't view as failures, that leaves 11 failures from all his transfers since he's been at Liverpool.

Quite tellingly, only 4 of whom cost over 2m by my calculations. Morientes, Keane, Dossena & Babel.

m@cc@

Mr Alan wrote: »

7 of the 18 are by no means failures!? wtf?! :eek:

The list was quoted from a website. The point of the list was to illustrate that across Benitez's 5 seasons in charge, he has had on average 20m to spend each season.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

Albert Riera – £8m (failure) been good for us, excellent squad player
Sebastian Leto - £1.85m (failure) never played for us due to his passport being revoked due to italian government **** up
Craig Bellamy - £6.5m (failure) did ok for us, vital in getting to CL final, sold on at a profit to buy torres
Robbie Fowler – free (failure) free, scored when he got chances, every liverpool fan was delighted with that move tbh
Scott Carson - £750,000 (failure) couldnt get in ahead of Reina, sold for good profit
Lucas Leiva - £6m (failure)this lad has been spoken about again & again, whatever you wanna look at it, he is not a failure & has been avergae-outstanding for us this season
Philipp Degen – free (failure)free-injured in his first season,been very good in a couple of appearances this season

7 of the 18 are by no means failures!? wtf?! :eek:

also the likes of Johnson as undecided :rolleyes:

so if you reduce the players i've listed who most sane people wouldn't view as failures, that leaves 11 failures from all his transfers since he's been at Liverpool.

Quite tellingly, only 4 of whom cost over 2m by my calculations. Morientes, Keane, Dossena & Babel.

that wasnt actually the point that poster was making when he put up that list though tbf

Mr Alan

actually its about 16m i think (i'm sure Muppet can fill us in!:))

what that doesn't tell us though, is that the spending has pretty much stopped in the last 2 seasons.

and i didn't know 16m a season was enough for a team to have to win the league title or the manager is poor in the transfer market, Spurs,City,Villa,Sunderland, etc, must be close to a league win any day now so!

Mr Alan

kryogen wrote: »

that wasnt actually the point that poster was making when he put up that list though tbf

possibly, but the myth of rafa being poor in the transfer market really is infuriating.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

and i didn't know 16m a season was enough for a team to have to win the league title or the manager is poor in the transfer market, Spurs,City,Villa,Sunderland, etc, must be close to a league win any day now so!

youd have to think itd be a decent enough amount for a team who won the champions league wouldnt you?

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

actually its about 16m i think (i'm sure Muppet can fill us in!:))

Do you want nett or gross?

Mr Alan

not really. a champions league is a totally different kind of competition to a league.

m@cc@

Mr Alan wrote: »

actually its about 16m i think (i'm sure Muppet can fill us in!:))

Where are you pulling that figure from? Net spend of 117.5m across 5 seasons?

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Do you want nett or gross?

i bet you have it bookmarked..... dont ya......?:P

Mr Alan

m@cc@ wrote: »

Where are you pulling that figure from? Net spend of 117.5m across 5 seasons?

muppets figs i think.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

not really. a champions league is a totally different kind of competition to a league.

surely not £100m odd in purchases different though?

Mr Alan

well when your rivals are strenghtening even more & the teams behind spending the same kinda money or more (yourselves for example), yes-you gotta spend that kind of money just to keep up.

but lets remember, Rafas CL conquests are good league performances have brought in 100m plus in the last 5 years alone.

flahavaj

m@cc@ wrote: »

Where are you pulling that figure from? Net spend of 117.5m across 5 seasons?

Is that before or after VAT?