Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

spockety

The core issue that Liverpool and Benitez face is that of relatively unfounded expectation, from within and from without.

There is a significant segment of fans who's expectation is that Liverpool should go into a season and be among the favourites to win the league. I'm not sure why this is. Liverpool are a massive club historically, but empires come and empires go. Liverpool are like England in that respect, the empire is gone but history weighs heavily and the population haven't quite twigged that they are not a true superpower any more.

The expectation from outside the club is a funny one. It's not that opposition fans and the media expect Liverpool to win the league going into any given season of late, it's that they expect that Liverpool fans expect to win the league! This is unfounded and wide of the mark. Liverpool fans do not expect to win the league, and with the resources available those who understand how things truly work do not even expect a challenge to the end. So it's baffling, that every single season, a few weeks in we are bombarded by the media and fans of opposition teams who seem to think that Liverpool fans should be ashamed that their team/manager has not perfomed to the expected level. I slightly resent this. I am a massive Liverpool supporter, but based on the resources available, the turmoil at the club, the quality of opposition empires/clubs, the most that I expect going into any season is that Liverpool will finish in a Champions League qualification spot (top 4), and get past the group stages of the Champions League. If Rafa manages much else then I tip my hat.

I'm sure some people will think that it's a disgraceful attitude to have, what kind of supporter am I, etc., that Rafa has spent 5 billion pounds and Liverpool should expect to challenge every year. You're entitled to your opinions, but I take heart from the fact that I'm not deluded and I live in a more grounded reality.

I have time on my side, Liverpool I believe will rebuild the empire before I die. It might only last 5 years, it might last 20, but some time before I die Liverpool will win the league again. I long for that day. Until then, I put my faith in a relatively good squad, an outstanding manager, and a few strokes of luck along the way.

Liverpool is not done. Rafa is nowhere near done.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

that figure is wrong. also its leaving out quite a lot of teams, the likes of stoke etc. who spent considerably more than us.

its including all the teams it was feasible to include (ie teams who didnt have most of their deals as "undisclosed")

you said liverpool were in the lowerst 5% of spenders this year, which would mean they'd have to be the losest spending team in the premier league

theyre not.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

that figure is wrong. also its leaving out quite a lot of teams, the likes of stoke etc. who spent considerably more than us.

Players Out
Alonso £30m
Arbeloa £3.5m
Leto £3m
Hammill £500k
Hobbs £300k (Received £400k but there was a sell-on clause)
Anderson £250k
Hyypia 0
Pennant 0
Total In £37.55m

Players In
Johnson £17m
Aquilani £17m
Kyrgiakos £2m
Chris Mavinga - minimal training compensation
Aaron King - minimal training compensation
Jesus Fernandez - minimal training compensation
Total out £36m

Net Profit £1.55m

Certainly over the last four or five seasons Liverpool have spent very well in comparison to other teams.

stevoslice

The Sparrow wrote: »

You don't think that Alonso was good for Liverpool last year?? Seriously??:eek:

Alonso was amazing last year, but this wasn't ever picked up on by the media or opposition fans until he was sold to real, then the media realised our two man team of gerrard and torres was actually a one man team all along, and we'd just gone and sold him!

Moving on from xabi-gate, i thought carra redeemed himself somewhat v sunderland, a good few of his last ditch saving tackles were on show.

On a side note, on dat today fm fone in show, a few people texted/rang in sayin that masch has been very poor this season and he is the most overrated player in the prem, this shocked me because 1. He only played around ten minutes yesterday including the 7 minutes of OT time, (Old Trafford time ;-)) and 2. He's the captain of argentina, how can the captain of argentina be overrated... (asides from veron that is) who is coveted by barcelona!

CCCP^

spockety wrote: »

The core issue that Liverpool and Benitez face is that of relatively unfounded expectation, from within and from without.

There is a significant segment of fans who's expectation is that Liverpool should go into a season and be among the favourites to win the league. I'm not sure why this is. Liverpool are a massive club historically, but empires come and empires go. Liverpool are like England in that respect, the empire is gone but history weighs heavily and the population haven't quite twigged that they are not a true superpower any more.

The expectation from outside the club is a funny one. It's not that opposition fans and the media expect Liverpool to win the league going into any given season of late, it's that they expect that Liverpool fans expect to win the league! This is unfounded and wide of the mark. Liverpool fans do not expect to win the league, and with the resources available those who understand how things truly work do not even expect a challenge to the end. So it's baffling, that every single season, a few weeks in we are bombarded by the media and fans of opposition teams who seem to think that Liverpool fans should be ashamed that their team/manager has not perfomed to the expected level. I slightly resent this. I am a massive Liverpool supporter, but based on the resources available, the turmoil at the club, the quality of opposition empires/clubs, the most that I expect going into any season is that Liverpool will finish in a Champions League qualification spot (top 4), and get past the group stages of the Champions League. If Rafa manages much else then I tip my hat.

I'm sure some people will think that it's a disgraceful attitude to have, what kind of supporter am I, etc., that Rafa has spent 5 billion pounds and Liverpool should expect to challenge every year. You're entitled to your opinions, but I take heart from the fact that I'm not deluded and I live in a more grounded reality.

I have time on my side, Liverpool I believe will rebuild the empire before I die. It might only last 5 years, it might last 20, but some time before I die Liverpool will win the league again. I long for that day. Until then, I put my faith in a relatively good squad, an outstanding manager, and a few strokes of luck along the way.

Liverpool is not done. Rafa is nowhere near done.

An excellent post, well said.

jesus_thats_gre

Had an disucssion with a United supporter in work today.. Apparently United have more world class players than Liverpool - 4 versus 2.

United's were Rooney, Vidic, Van Der Sar and Hargreaves.

Liverpool's were Gerrard and Torres.


It cheered me up a fair bit, I have to admit.

Headshot

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Had an disucssion with a United supporter in work today.. Apparently United have more world class players that United - 4 versus 2.

United's were Rooney, Vidic, Van Der Sar and Hargreaves.

Liverpool's were Gerrard and Torres.


It cheered me up a fair bit, I have to admit.

that utd fan knows **** all then

every utd player is world class...



;-)

jesus_thats_gre

Headshot wrote: »

that utd fan knows **** all then

every utd player is world class...



;-)

Haha

BERBA

Think either spurs or city have a great chance of finishing 4th ahead of pool this season. Spurs beat stoke next weekend at the lane and pool lose to man u and were 7 points clear having played utd chelski and pool already. Spurs have a far superior squad and strength in depth to the pool this season. Bet the pool supporters deep down wish they had crouch and keane at the minute instead of the rubbish thats up front for em at present ... ngog , voronin , babel.

jesus_thats_gre

I think that either Spurs or City have a chance of pushing for 3rd place. If the top 4 remain the same, they will be close to each other and I imagine that the 5th and 6th place teams will be very very close to them.

flahavaj

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Had an disucssion with a United supporter in work today.. Apparently United have more world class players than Liverpool - 4 versus 2.

United's were Rooney, Vidic, Van Der Sar and Hargreaves.

Liverpool's were Gerrard and Torres.


It cheered me up a fair bit, I have to admit.

If he'd said Ferdinand and Evra instead of VDS and Hargo he'd at least have had a case to argue.

And JOS.

jesus_thats_gre

flahavaj wrote: »

If he'd said Ferdinand and Evra instead of VDS and Hargo he'd at least have had a case to argue.

And JOS.

He is just being a bit of tool, normally reasonable enough in his opinions on football.

JerryHandbag

Normally I'd say Liverpool are screwed....4 defeats already...but I just have a feelin that it will be a much lower points total that wins league this year, us and Chelsea will drop points again, thats for sure the way things are goin. So maybe the winner might lose 6 games? So its foolish to say they are out of it IMO.

Liverpool are bound to go on a good run of wins....I just hope it doesnt start next weekend!

jesus_thats_gre

If Liverpool lose to United next week, it will be 3 league losses in a row. I would love to know the last time that happened to one of the big clubs.

If you include the Fiorentina match, it is 4 matches in a row in lead up to the Lyon match..

Bandit12

Terrible start to the season but only 7 points behind the leaders and the chance to close the gap to 4 points next weekend. It ain't all bad tbh.

fkt

The Sparrow wrote: »

And as for who are Utd's Gerard and Torres? Utd don't have a Gerard or Torres because they don't just rely on a couple of players.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you suggesting that Gerrard and Torres are a different type of player because they are "relied on"?

Compare the Mancs best players to ours. Can you say that apart from Gerrard and Torres we have nothing over them?

So Gary Neville is better than Glen Johnson, VDS better than Reina, Anderson is better than Mascherano? Is that what you are suggesting? Man Utd are what then, a six man team?

The "two man team" arguement just doesn't make any sense.

And Also it's amazing how great everyone thinks Alonso is now although he didn't even get shortlisted for the PFA award last year.

Liam O

fkt wrote: »

That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you suggesting that Gerrard and Torres are a different type of player because they are "relied on"?

Compare the Mancs best players to ours. Can you say that apart from Gerrard and Torres we have nothing over them?

So Gary Neville is better than Glen Johnson, VDS better than Reina, Anderson is better than Mascherano? Is that what you are suggesting? Man Utd are what then, a six man team?

The "two man team" arguement just doesn't make any sense.

And Also it's amazing how great everyone thinks Alonso is now although he didn't even get shortlisted for the PFA award last year.

Gary Neville and Anderson aren't first choice...United are better in defense than Liverpool. It's close in midfield, close in attack but United have a much better bench imo.

also your post kind of confused me, what point are you trying to make by calling United a 6 man team?

also it was plain in sight that Alonso was great last season...

ctrl-alt-delete

All i'll say is the team that were out yesterday are not capable of winning the Premiership, and would be well off the pace in challenging for it.

Chelsea went to the stadium of light this season, and were a goal down at half time. They came out in the 2nd half and didn't give Sunderland a look in, winning the game 3-1.

In my opinion - Liverpool with Gerrard and Torres would have made a huge difference yesterday. Now that is obvious, but i do think the other Liverpool players rely on that pair too much. Again in my opinion i feel that Chelsea and Man Utd could cope with the loss of 2 similar players much better.

Although i feel the top 4 will still lose more games this season, i don't think Liverpool are in with a shout - that could all change next week though

Mr Alan

OPENROAD wrote: »

Certainly over the last four or five seasons Liverpool have spent very well in comparison to other teams.

last year was about £4m.

the couple of previous seasons were more, but still not near the top in the league or enough to ever say "well, gotta win the league with all that money"

so, despite no investment in the last couple of years, and not enough investment in the couple of years before that, we should be expected to win the league.

quite frankly, its bollox.

The Sparrow

fkt wrote: »

That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you suggesting that Gerrard and Torres are a different type of player because they are "relied on"?

No. I'm suggesting that Utd don't just rely on two players so you can't pick just two players in the Man Utd team that are as important as Gerard and Torres are to Liverpool. [/quote]

fkt wrote: »

Compare the Mancs best players to ours. Can you say that apart from Gerrard and Torres we have nothing over them?

Reina just about edges Van De Sar mainly because he is younger. Utd's defence is better and besides Gerard and Torres Utd's team is better player by player with the possible exception of Masherano who I haven't made up my mind on because I haven't seen him play particularly well without Alonso. And unlike Liverpool, Utd have good strikers who can fill in when Rooney or Berbatov are not playing. And the same goes for the top 6 or so teams who all have better squads than Liverpools.

And Also it's amazing how great everyone thinks Alonso is now although he didn't even get shortlisted for the PFA award last year.

Well he was one of my players of last year. I thought he was brilliant.

Bubs101

spockety wrote: »

The expectation from outside the club is a funny one. It's not that opposition fans and the media expect Liverpool to win the league going into any given season of late, it's that they expect that Liverpool fans expect to win the league! This is unfounded and wide of the mark.

This is absolutely spot on but I'm not sure that it's unfounded. If you ever look at the odds with the bookies on a Liverpool title win they're always (IMO) shorter than they should be and the odds are shifted by how many people put money on a certain team so the bookies can cut down on liability. Everytime I see Liverpool's odds the week before the season i just get more and more convinced of the delusion of Liverpool fans.

Phil Thompson on Soccer Saturday is what I stereotype every Liverpool fan as and he is unbelievably blind and annoying whenever Liverpool are brought up

Liam O

Mr Alan wrote: »

last year was about £4m.

the couple of previous seasons were more, but still not near the top in the league or enough to ever say "well, gotta win the league with all that money"

so, despite no investment in the last couple of years, and not enough investment in the couple of years before that, we should be expected to win the league.

quite frankly, its bollox.

when the owners spent the £20m on Robbie Keane I don't think they expected to get the money back for him. That shows that there was investment. I don't care about selling players, money available to buy players has been there in abundance for Benitez, he just chose to buy about 5 £5-10m players every season that weren't really improvements on what they already had instead of 2 or 3 £15-20m players who would've greatly improved them.

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

Phil Thompson on Soccer Saturday is what I stereotype every Liverpool fan as and he is unbelievably blind and annoying whenever Liverpool are brought up

I enjoyed this part, good lad Bubs.:pac:

Headshot

Bubs101 wrote: »

Phil Thompson on Soccer Saturday is what I stereotype every Liverpool fan as and he is unbelievably blind and annoying whenever Liverpool are brought up

I know exactly where your coming from

micks

The Sparrow wrote: »

No. I'm suggesting that Utd don't just rely on two players so you can't pick just two players in the Man Utd team that are as important as Gerard and Torres are to Liverpool.

Why do people think it was only Gerard and Torres that were missing ?

How would UTD cope missing Berba/Rooney/Evra/Carrick ? I dont think many would be too confident?


Huge match next weekend even bigger now!!!

Headshot

micks wrote: »

Why do people think it was only Gerard and Torres that were missing ?

How would UTD cope missing Berba/Rooney/Evra/Carrick ? I dont think many would be too confident?


Huge match next weekend even bigger now!!!

so far this season carrick isnt a big loss, so you can scratch him off that list

Mr Alan

Liam O wrote: »

I don't care about selling players, money available to buy players has been there in abundance for Benitez, he just chose to buy about 5 £5-10m players every season that weren't really improvements on what they already had instead of 2 or 3 £15-20m players who would've greatly improved them.

see, i disagree with this strongly. 1 fact you're totally ignoring is that a lot of the squad players your talking about who were replaced, wanted to leave.

replacements were needed, and with the tight budget Rafa has had, he can't go out & buy 2 or 3 15m-20m players when there is squad members leaving who need to be replaced, as well as first teamers.

Your also talking as if Liverpool have gotten worse every year since Rafa has been there, when in fact Liverpool have always improved under Rafa when he had a few quid to spend & that despite the obvious budgetry constraints at a time when the league is more competitive than ever.

---

lets look at the players Rafa has signed for any type of money. i think you'll agree that his record is pretty impressive despite wat people would have you believe.

£20+ million:

Torres-unbelievably good buy

£15-20 million:

Mascherano-great buy, mocked at the time about the figure, worth more than twice that now.

Keane-poor buy, ended up costing around 2m-5m depending on reports.

Johnson-brilliant buy so far in his career. much mocked for the fee at the time, but most admit he has been sensation in his short time at the club so far.

Aquilani-yet to be decided.

£10-15 million:

Babel-disppointed.

Alonso-brilliant. wanted to leave, sold for 30m plus

£5-10 million:

Dossenna-poor
Riera-good buy
Agger-very good buy
Skrtel-very good buy
Reina-brilliant buy. relatively unheard of, regarded as one of the best in the world now
Benayoun-excellent buy
Leiva-average buy. much mocked, but genuinely scapegoated unfairly. for 5.5m played in some huge games for Liverpool and performed admirably, couple of really poor games, lot of average-decent games, couple of greaet games.
Kuyt-great buy. striker turned one of the best right sided players in the league
Pennant-average, did ok in spells.
Crouch-very good. slow start, then took off. sold on for a profit when Torres arrived and Crouch wanted more games
Bellamy-average, sold on for profit cause wanted more game time
Sissoko-brilliant before his injury, good after his injury. sold on for profit with the arrival of Mascherano
Morientes-disappointed.
Garcia-good, one of the main reasons we won the CL in 2005. sold on when wanted to go back to spain.

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

the statement was just a rough idea to put across a point.

that the investment has not been forthcoming from our owners, in fact, its been non-existant.

The problem with Rafa is that he doesnt buy well. Apart from Torres and Mach who did he buy that is really world class.

Wenger has spent **** all in all his seasons at Arsenal had he never complains about it, he just gets on with it.

If liverpool lose their next 2 games than Rafa could walk.

Headshot

If liverpool lose their next 2 games than Rafa could walk.

God i hope he wont

Mr Alan

jank wrote: »

The problem with Rafa is that he doesnt buy well. Apart from Torres and Mach who did he buy that is really world class.

Wenger has spent **** all in all his seasons at Arsenal had he never complains about it, he just gets on with it.

If liverpool lose their next 2 games than Rafa could walk.

wat world class players are available for small sums of cash?

i'd add Reina & Alonso to your list as well by the way.

Wenger has spent **** all at Arsenal, i agree, but since 2005 what has he won? and how many world class players has he bought since that time? 1? None?

when Liverpool were finshing ahead of Arsenal 3 of the last 4 seasons, and going through numerous ver poor spells, were you saying Wenger should walk?

this is not me having a pop at Wenger. i think he is doing a great job at Arsenal.

keane2097

Mr Alan wrote: »

lets look at the players Rafa has signed for any type of money. i think you'll agree that his record is pretty impressive despite wat people would have you believe.

£20+ million:

Torres-unbelievably good buy

£15-20 million:

Mascherano-great buy, mocked at the time about the figure, worth more than twice that now.

Keane-poor buy, ended up costing around 2m-5m depending on reports.

£10-15 million:

Babel-disppointed.

Alonso-brilliant. wanted to leave, sold for 30m plus

£5-10 million:

Dossenna-poor
Riera-good buy
Agger-very good buy
Skrtel-very good buy
Reina-brilliant buy. relatively unheard of, regarded as one of the best in the world now
Benayoun-excellent buy
Leiva-average buy. much mocked, but genuinely scapegoated unfairly. for 5.5m played in some huge games for Liverpool and performed admirably, couple of really poor games, lot of average-decent games, couple of greaet games.
Kuyt-great buy. striker turned one of the best right sided players in the league
Pennant-average, did ok in spells.
Crouch-very good. slow start, then took off. sold on for a profit when Torres arrived and Crouch wanted more games
Bellamy-average, sold on for profit cause wanted more game time
Sissoko-brilliant before his injury, good after his injury. sold on for profit with the arrival of Mascherano
Morientes-disappointed.
Garcia-good, one of the main reasons we won the CL in 2005. sold on when wanted to go back to spain.

I'm a United fan.

Nevertheless I'm quoting this in the hopes that it being repeated will lead to more people reading it.

The tripe that's spouted about Benitez re:transfers day after day on this forum is irritating to say the least.

This excellent excerpt should, if there's any modicum of intelligence to be found in these parts, put an end to much of it.

Well played.

Mr Alan

should also add in

Johnson & Aquilani.

Johnson been brilliant. Aquilani-yet to be decided!

OPENROAD

It has been pointed out that Liverpool have no money to spend.


Since 2004, Liverpool have spent approx £113,650,000 net, which puts them amongst the big spenders.

Arsenal on the otherhand have generated approx £33,770,000.

Arsenal have won the premiership and FA cup in this time.
Liverpool have won a Champions league and FA cup.

Not much in the difference except for spending.


Even if Liverpool do not win their next two matches,(I think they will win both)it is still madness to suggest Rafas job is under pressure.

Mr Alan

OPENROAD wrote: »

Since 2004, Liverpool have spent approx £113,650,000 net, which puts them amongst the big spenders.

amongst the big spenders indeed.

which is why we finished amongst the big spenders at the end of the season.

but we haven't spent as much as the big big spenders, and accordingly, we haven't won the league.

since the americans have come in investment has stopped though, yet on a (relative) shoestring our team has still been getting stronger.

Arsene Wenger is doing brilliant work. no one is saying any different. but its an entirely different situation to Rafa & Liverpool.

Arsene doing well is not a reason to sack Rafa, especially when you consider that Liverpool were quite considerably better than Arsenal last year and are only 3 points behind them this year, neither club should really be bragging at the moment tbh.

*just saw your edit, i hope you're right about the next two games!

Paul Tergat

As a Utd fan I really hope Benitez leaves by whatever means.

I was one of the few who a couple of years ago when a similar thread, but much more posting was done in it, said for Pools sake he should stay.

You need to think, who could they get in that would do a better job?

The circumstances under which he has to operate under are not good at all.

Mr Alan

p_larkin99 wrote: »

You need to think, who could they get in that would do a better job?

only one man would be mental enough to take the job.....!

raven136

If liverpool beat United on the weekend,they will be 4 points behind them with 28games to play.How in any mans language is that"done"?

citytillidie

How many times in this place does every Liverpool thread go to bickering about Rafa's money spending. Mods should just make one super thread and the arugument and be repeated in it every few days instead of every Liverpool match thread or every other week in the main Liverpool thread, or on any thread started about Liverpool

Paul Tergat

I guess he'd get the best out of Masch, and maybe you'd sign his son in law Aguero - oh wait he's been dropped. Instead Maradona would be signing 36 year olds. Yes alan, please get rid of rafa and bring in Maradona, or even Klinsman as your owners seem to like him.

In summary, Pool need to keep Rafa.

Paul Tergat

raven136 wrote: »

If liverpool beat United on the weekend,they will be 4 points behind them with 28games to play.How in any mans language is that"done"?

It's just totally daft. I think if we look at say Utd v Pool games played so far Utd have had much nicer fixtures. Pool have lost away to chelsea and villa whereas Utd have beaten arsenal and city at home. This is a big swing and means a lot, thats why we must judge teams over a whole season.

citytillidie wrote: »

How many times in this place does every Liverpool thread go to bickering about Rafa's money spending. Mods should just make one super thread and the arugument and be repeated in it every few days instead of every Liverpool match thread or every other week in the main Liverpool thread, or on any thread started about Liverpool

Im a utd fan and at this stage I could name the signings and net spending etc. Its just mind numbingly boring.

Mr Alan

p_larkin99 wrote: »

please get rid of rafa and bring in Maradona, or even Klinsman as your owners seem to like him.

don't knock it, he has very good contacts with the marketing department at adidas (i **** you not, this was among their reasoning!)

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat world class players are available for small sums of cash?

i'd add Reina & Alonso to your list as well by the way.

Wenger has spent **** all at Arsenal, i agree, but since 2005 what has he won? and how many world class players has he bought since that time? 1? None?

when Liverpool were finshing ahead of Arsenal 3 of the last 4 seasons, and going through numerous ver poor spells, were you saying Wenger should walk?

this is not me having a pop at Wenger. i think he is doing a great job at Arsenal.

Alonso world class yes, Reina no.

I would class Arshvain as world class. Didnt he score 4 goals at Anfield last year?

The thing with Wenger though he takes a rough diamond like Cesc or Adebayour and makes them into world class players. Rafa cant do that, hence he has to spend big. Now cause he has no money he is left with no plan B.

When is the last player to come up through the ranks at liverpool?

I just think some liverpool fans are blind to the problems at the club. Torres was on the verge of signing for man city for 70 million during the summer of reports are to be believed. The money was needed to plug a hole in the finances of the club. They are very near the edge of a cliff here and if they fall out of the top 4 then who knows what happens.

Paul Tergat

Mr Alan wrote: »

don't knock it, he has very good contacts with the marketing department at adidas (i **** you not, this was among their reasoning!)

Aye yeah i remember reading at the time they were talking about this as a GENUINE reason for bringing him in. I was thinking please do it, have your nice relations with adidas with someone far inferior to Rafa.

What worries me is if these new owners come in and Rafa actually has a decent NET sum to spend with full control on transfers.

Ardent

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kuyt-great buy. striker turned one of the best right sided players in the league

LMAO! I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you come out with crap like that.

Kuyt is symptomatic of the lack of creativity in the Liverpool team.

Mr Alan

jank wrote: »

Alonso world class yes, Reina no.

I think you'd find your in the minority with your views on Reina.

jank wrote: »

I would class Arshvain as world class. Didnt he score 4 goals at Anfield last year?

so? didn't baptista do similar?

Arshavin may be world class, so thats Rafa 3-Wenger 1. by your own standards!

jank wrote: »

When is the last player to come up through the ranks at liverpool??

Insua. Current LB.

jank wrote: »

Torres was on the verge of signing for man city for 70 million during the summer of reports are to be believed.

No, no he wasn't.

Paul Tergat

jank wrote: »

Alonso world class yes, Reina no.

To be honest I think you will struggle to name better goalkeepers than him. I'd say its easier to name midfielders better than Xabi than keepers better than Reina

jank wrote: »

I would class Arshvain as world class. Didnt he score 4 goals at Anfield last year?

Nice, one game is very conclusive right?

jank wrote: »

The thing with Wenger though he takes a rough diamond like Cesc or Adebayour and makes them into world class players. Rafa cant do that, hence he has to spend big. Now cause he has no money he is left with no plan B.

For every Cesc there are a lot of other players who we hear nothing about and they leave Arsenal and end up doing nothing. The same applies with all managers.

jank wrote: »

I just think some liverpool fans are blind to the problems at the club. Torres was on the verge of signing for man city for 70 million during the summer of reports are to be believed. The money was needed to plug a hole in the finances of the club. They are very near the edge of a cliff here and if they fall out of the top 4 then who knows what happens.

Was this at all in anyway agreed/confirmed? All I heard was speculation. And even if Pool wanted to sell did Torres ever say or even hint in the slightest he wanted or was willing to go.

raven136

jank wrote: »

Alonso world class yes, Reina no.

I would class Arshvain as world class. Didnt he score 4 goals at Anfield last year?

The thing with Wenger though he takes a rough diamond like Cesc or Adebayour and makes them into world class players. Rafa cant do that, hence he has to spend big. Now cause he has no money he is left with no plan B.

When is the last player to come up through the ranks at liverpool?

I just think some liverpool fans are blind to the problems at the club. Torres was on the verge of signing for man city for 70 million during the summer of reports are to be believed. The money was needed to plug a hole in the finances of the club. They are very near the edge of a cliff here and if they fall out of the top 4 then who knows what happens.

If you sign a player at 17/18 and he then works out does that make him "though the ranks".Was it not barca who saw a rough diamond in Cesc and not Wenger.I love the football wenger plays but he has finished and won less than rafa in his 5 seasons at the club.
Also didnt Rafa take a player with a decent but niot great scoring record in spain that Wenger and Fergie were not interested in and turn him into the best striker in the world?Torres himself has said Rafa has made him a better player.

Us liverpool fans dont need to be told about the problems at our club,check out Irishkop,sos etc to see.We are realistic but everytime Rafa is mentioned so is his spending etc.

raven136

Ardent wrote: »

LMAO! I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you come out with crap like that.

Kuyt is symptomatic of the lack of creativity in the Liverpool team.

12 goals,12 assists was it not last season,similar to another striker turned wide player at United.

curry-muff

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat world class players are available for small sums of cash?

i'd add Reina & Alonso to your list as well by the way.

Wenger has spent **** all at Arsenal, i agree, but since 2005 what has he won? and how many world class players has he bought since that time? 1? None?

when Liverpool were finshing ahead of Arsenal 3 of the last 4 seasons, and going through numerous ver poor spells, were you saying Wenger should walk?

this is not me having a pop at Wenger. i think he is doing a great job at Arsenal.

Fact still remains that Wenger has won the premiership, Benitez hasn't. :rolleyes:

Mr Alan

Ardent wrote: »

LMAO! I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you come out with crap like that.

Kuyt is symptomatic of the lack of creativity in the Liverpool team.

Kuyt got 12 goals in the PL last season from the RW. Ronaldo & Gerrrard are the only players who are not out & out strikers who got more.

He also got 9 assists (joint third highest in the league...highest for a winger).

Thats the stats for the league only.

and i'm the one who shouldn't be taken seriously?