Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

i bet you have it bookmarked..... dont ya......?:P

You can bet on it, I'm touched that you're using my figures.


Average nett over the last 5.5 seasons is around 20 million per season (new investment)

Average nett over the last two years is around 750k per season. (new investment)


Average gross over the last 5,5 seasons is around £45 million per season

Average gross over the last two Seasons is around £37 million per season.

m@cc@

flahavaj wrote: »

Is that before or after VAT?

After, though you wouldn't pay VAT on foreign imports though obviously there might be an import tax involved.

Bubs101

Surely all of this talk about money is completely misleading and irrelevant. Since Houllier left it's still essentially a two man team with Owen being replaced by Torres. This run would be unnacceptable for a Chelsea manager and considering Rafa doesn't have the legacy of a Wenger or a Fergie I can't believe the support he's continuing to get

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

You can bet on it, I'm touched that you're using my figures.

we dont agree about em all, but they're not a million miles away so **** it, i'm too lazy to go looking! :P

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

we dont agree about em all, but they're not a million miles away so **** it, i'm too lazy to go looking! :P

My work here is done.:P

You're right about the last two seasons, the yanks have drastically reduced their investment.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

well when your rivals are strenghtening even more & the teams behind spending the same kinda money or more (yourselves for example), yes-you gotta spend that kind of money just to keep up.

but lets remember, Rafas CL conquests are good league performances have brought in 100m plus in the last 5 years alone.

Rafa has spent very well in the last few years to have been able to put together a good squad.

m@cc@

OPENROAD wrote: »

Rafa has spent very well in the last few years to have been able to put together a good squad.

I'll give you that. Liverpool have an excellent team and a good squad.

Mr Alan

Bubs101 wrote: »

Surely all of this talk about money is completely misleading and irrelevant. Since Houllier left it's still essentially a two man team with Owen being replaced by Torres. This run would be unnacceptable for a Chelsea manager and considering Rafa doesn't have the legacy of a Wenger or a Fergie I can't believe the support he's continuing to get

no offence, but Chelsea are hardly a beacon of how a club should be run. and it will also explain why despite Romans billions you will probably never build a dynasty like Liverpool have in the past & Utd have now.

sacking managers because of bad runs & forgettting all about the amazing work they've done is a game for clubs other than Liverpool.

and you'll find Fergie was supported during far worse periods than this before he built his legacy at Utd, similarly, Wenger has been massively supported despite a long barren run & Rafa being more successful since in both the league & europe since coming to England (with a team that was considerably behind Arsenal when he arrived)

and we are not a two man team. Johnson,Mascherano,Reina,Alonso,Agger would grace virtually any other top team.

Berti Vogts

Bubs101 wrote: »

Surely all of this talk about money is completely misleading and irrelevant. Since Houllier left it's still essentially a two man team with Owen being replaced by Torres. This run would be unnacceptable for a Chelsea manager and considering Rafa doesn't have the legacy of a Wenger or a Fergie I can't believe the support he's continuing to get

Criticism is easy

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG166394091109-1109.htm

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

no offence, but Chelsea are hardly a bastion of a classy club or a beacon of how a club should be run.

sacking managers because of bad runs & forgettting all about the amazing work they've done is a game for clubs other than Liverpool.

and you'll find Fergie was supported during far worse periods than this before he built his legacy at Utd, similarly, Wenger has been massively supported despite a long barren run & Rafa being more successful since in both the league & europe since coming to England (with a team that was considerably behind Arsenal when he arrived)

and we are not a two man team. Johnson,Mascherano,Reina,Alonso,Agger would grace virtually any other top team.

Hes gone dude, let it go.;)

flahavaj

Possibilities wrote: »

Criticism is easy

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG166394091109-1109.htm

Criticism is justified. When was the last time Liverpool had a run of form this bad. Serious question. Must be a LONG time ago.

One win in what, 9 matches?

Samurai

Mr Alan wrote: »

and we are not a two man team. Johnson,Mascherano,Reina,Alonso,Agger would grace virtually any other top team.

EDIT: 2L8 !

Mr Alan

just threw him in, cause the poster seemed to be saying that the club hasnt moved forward & has still been relying on two players since Rafa arrived.

its just not true.

as some pundit somewhere said, tis funny tis season, cause all we heard all last year when Liverpool were flying in the league was how they were a two man team with Gerrard & Torres, then we sold Alonso, and all of a sudden in actual fact we were a one man team, and it was alonso all along! :rolleyes:

Iang87

i'll be as subtle as possible.

In football management just with any management you must prepare for the unpredictable. In football management this takes way of injuries to key players. It is therefore the managers job to ensure that there is adequate replacement there to step in for a period of time causing as little difference to the actual goal that is to be achieved.

In relation to rafa he has had 5 years to build a squad regardless of expenditure 5 years. The squad he has developed is frankly disgraceful. Lucas, Ngog, Babel, Riera, Voronin, Insua. I accept some of these players are young and developing but still there not adequate replacement to first team players and to make it even more rididulous some of these who should be back up players are actually starters.

Personally i'm of the belief its time for a change, one second place finish in 5 years and four top 4 finishes isn't good enough and in my opinion those who feel that is good enough have settled for mediocrity and to be honest in the competitive league that the premiership is mediocrity is nowhere

Mr Alan

flahavaj wrote: »

Criticism is justified.

i agree.

but it has to be kept in context.

m@cc@

Iang87 wrote: »

i'll be as subtle as possible.

Iang87 wrote: »

Personally i'm of the belief its time for a change, one second place finish in 5 years and four top 4 finishes isn't good enough

About as subtle as a brick in the face. :pac:

Mr Alan

Iang87 wrote: »

i'll be as subtle as possible.

In football management just with any management you must prepare for the unpredictable. In football management this takes way of injuries to key players. It is therefore the managers job to ensure that there is adequate replacement there to step in for a period of time causing as little difference to the actual goal that is to be achieved.

In relation to rafa he has had 5 years to build a squad regardless of expenditure 5 years. The squad he has developed is frankly disgraceful. Lucas, Ngog, Babel, Riera, Voronin, Insua. I accept some of these players are young and developing but still there not adequate replacement to first team players and to make it even more rididulous some of these who should be back up players are actually starters.

Personally i'm of the belief its time for a change, one second place finish in 5 years and four top 4 finishes isn't good enough and in my opinion those who feel that is good enough have settled for mediocrity and to be honest in the competitive league that the premiership is mediocrity is nowhere

i disagree 1000000%.

and the fact that you're saying the likes of Ngog,Babel,Riera & Insua aren't good enough to be even squad players at Liverpool shows up how silly your post is imo.

who would you replace him with just out of curiousity?

m@cc@

Mr Alan wrote: »

who would you replace him with just out of curiousity?

Can I suggest Kenny Dalglish?

Mr Alan

m@cc@ wrote: »

Can I suggest Kenny Dalglish?

can i laugh at you?

dannydiamond

spockety wrote: »

Liverpool's hopes of winning the league would appear to be shot. It ain't over until it's over, but I wouldn't even bet a tenner on them winning the league now.

It's been such an awful start to the season, really disappointing, gutting actually, but that's football. You have to take the lows with the highs. (cue derision from people not worth debating with about something like "lolz there are no highs with Rafa!!!", etc.).

So from that perspective, no, Rafa is not done. I feel for him, the pressure must be immense.

Where to from here? Liverpool need to get everyone back fit, they need to click, and they need to demolish some poor team and go on a run. The fans need to stick by the team, stick by Rafa, and stick by each other.

Sneaking into the last 16 of the Champions League would be lovely, but being utterly honest, if I had to choose between winning the Europa League, or going through to the last 16 of the Champions League and progressing no further, I'd probably pick the trophy for this season. The FA Cup is still up for grabs and it would also be a nice piece off silverware to pick up. It goes without saying that 4th place simply has to be cemented, it would be unthinkable not to have CL football at Liverpool.

Having said that, we are continually put in peril by our ownership situation, and the lack of the required investment both on and off the pitch, to bring Liverpool to the level that Chelsea, Arsenal, and United are at. People don't like debating this issue, particularly opposition supporters, because it's much easier to just have pops at Rafa and some squad players and then slip back into the ether. But it is the absolute #1 issue at the club right now, and in the long term history of the club, the activities on the pitch over the last 2 months pale into insignificance compared to the activities off it.

Hicks and Gillett out, they are done.

Excellent post sir, I think you've summed it up perfectly.

The 'Rafa out' stuff while unfortunately expected these days still bemuses me.I hear intelligent football fans(LFC fans included) who want rid of him.It really is quite stunning for reasons that have been already debated to death.

We need Rafa more than ever now imo,i'm afraid to even consider the alternative.

herbieflowers

Is it really a question of squad depth? They put out a pretty good team against Lyon and they beat United while being somewhat understrength.

The problem has been consistency. It's not like they're playing awfully (of the games I've seen: Lyon away, second-half Fiorentina, Man Utd, even the Chelsea game) - it could be an inability to play badly and win. But it might also be a case of a bad start compounded by injuries to key players and a bit of bad luck, too.

Headshot

lyon mate

Mr Alan

the squad is looking a lot healthier now with people coming back from injury.

gerrard replacing Riera tonight, Babel replacing Yossi & Aquilani replacing Lucas.

Headshot

question: what will it take for liverpool fans to turn their back on rafa?

Mr Alan

herbieflowers wrote: »

But it might also be a case of a bad start compounded by injuries to key players and a bit of bad luck, too.

thats exactly it imo.

its a pain in the hole that its panned out that way, but if we were to got rid of Rafa, he'll walk into the Real job most likely & we'll be interviewing Curbishly & Klinnmann for the job. but for some reason thats wat some people want. modern football fans are strange.

m@cc@

Headshot wrote: »

question: what will it take for liverpool fans to turn their back on rafa?

I have to admire their loyalty to Benitez though. I remember a large number of misguided fools calling for the heads for Ferguson and Wenger in recent years.

Realistically, the league (and maybe the CL) are not going to be won by Liverpool this season anyway, so it would make little sense to sack Benitez at this moment in time. He still seems to have the support of the dressing room and the fans.

Mr Alan

Headshot wrote: »

question: what will it take for liverpool fans to turn their back on rafa?

finishing outside the top 4 this season & an awful run up to Christmas next year looking like we wont finish it again.

even then, if the investment had carried on as it has for the last couple of seasons, i wouldn't be militant "out", i'd be, "ok-if there is a top manager available, maybe its time for change"

kryogen

Headshot wrote: »

question: what will it take for liverpool fans to turn their back on rafa?

Some are in fairness, the die hard Church of Rafa followers will probably need to see Liverpool fail to qualify for the Champions League, probably twice, lose Torres and get beaten at home by Hull, followed by another defeat away to Wolves and topped off with a drubbing at Anfield by Man United with Michael Owen scoring an injure time hattrick in front of the Kop and celebrating by saying he was always a blue nose (quickly followed by admissions of the same from Gerrard and Carragher

I re-iterate my own stance

Long live Rafa!

Keep Rafa In!

Johnny Utah

I don't think there is a 'top manager' who would be genuinely interested in the Liverpool job.

Mr Alan

m@cc@ wrote: »

Realistically, the league (and maybe the CL) are not going to be won by Liverpool this season anyway.

see, this is the funny thing.....

our spending, however debatable it is, is in & around what the people in Uefa Cup spots, pushing for the CL is. (far less than that since the americans have come in).

we havent won the league in 20 years & before Rafa came, we hadnt won the CL since 1984!

why do we think we should win it? because we did when Gerrard was a kid? when i was 5? nonsense.

his brilliant management in Cup competitions & the team he has built is the reason we have a confidence going into the CL every year. did we ever expect to be in the mix for the CL under Houllier every year?

again, despite lack of investment since the americans have come in (even Muppet concedes the spending has virtually stopped) he is the reason we are (up until this recent run) closer than we've ever been in the league. this season so far has been virtually a nightmare, but imo he is the biggest asset the club has. getting rid would be insanity.

dannydiamond

Headshot wrote: »

question: what will it take for liverpool fans to turn their back on rafa?

2 1/2 months into a season only a fool would turn their back on a manager they deemed good enough at the start of the season.

As a fan i'd be appalled if he lost his job during the season tbh.

redout

Look at it this way. If Pool go into the Uefa cup they must be among the favourites although Barcelona could yet be joining them. Not all is lost but I reckon they are fighting for fourth only as Chelsea, United and Arsenal look in far better shape. Aquilani purchase was ill thought out. Buying a guy who was suppose to miss the first 5 weeks which turns into 3 months to replace the main cog in your wheel was not a very smart idea. Really think Arsenal could do it this year and it wouldnt annoy me if they did. Fabregas has been out of this world so far this season.

CHD

dannydiamond wrote: »

2 1/2 months into a season only a fool would turn their back on a manager they deemed good enough at the start of the season.

As a fan i'd be appalled if he lost his job during the season tbh.

What if yous go out of the CL and are around 20 points behind after Xmas?

dannydiamond

CHD wrote: »

What if yous go out of the CL and are around 20 points behind after Xmas?

Same would apply.

kryogen

dannydiamond wrote: »

Same would apply.

I dunno, I mean, if Martin Jol was the right man for Spurs at the start of the season then should they have given him the rest of the season? Same applies to Ramos in their case? Getting Harry in paid off for them. Sometimes a change can be a good thing.

I am firmly in the keep the man in the job pile but as in poker, you have to re evaluate your position a lot in football!

Chucky the tree

kryogen wrote: »

I dunno, I mean, if Martin Jol was the right man for Spurs at the start of the season then should they have given him the rest of the season? Same applies to Ramos in their case? Getting Harry in paid off for them. Sometimes a change can be a good thing.

I am firmly in the keep the man in the job pile but as in poker, you have to re evaluate your position a lot in football!

I'm sure if Liverpool are in the relegation zone come the end of this month then maybe the calls for Rafa to be sacked won't be completely crazy but until that happens your Ramos/Redknapp example is a poor one.

Mr Alan

kryogen wrote: »

I dunno, I mean, if Martin Jol was the right man for Spurs at the start of the season then should they have given him the rest of the season?

absolutely.

they're only recovered from that mistake about now tbh & Spurs are pretty loaded. we're skint.

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'm sure if Liverpool are in the relegation zone come the end of this month then maybe the calls for Rafa to be sacked won't be completely crazy but until that happens your Ramos/Redknapp example is a poor one.

More of a Martin Jol one if you read it, but yeah thanks, you managed to miss the point pretty well

flahavaj

100 pages.:eek:

You'd have gotten fairly long odds in those optimistic days of the Summer that a thread with this title would have gotten this mileage a few months later.:pac:

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

absolutely.

they're only recovered from that mistake about now tbh & Spurs are pretty loaded. we're skint.

My personal opinion is that I would be inclined to agree that he should have been given the time, but now after getting Redknapp in I think its been a positive appointment, and the thing is, that regardless of who people could think of to replace Benitez, its foolish to think there isnt someone out there, under the radar or not a big name, who would be able to come in and do well

What Liverpool fans were calling for Benitez himself to be appointed 12 months before he was? 6 months even? Be honest with yourselves!

In football there is always someone waiting to come along and do a job. Rafa leaving would not be the end of the world! has he become bigger then the club to some fans?

If he was to be sacked it would realistically cost the club about 18 months pay, the new man in would have a decent squad and a pretty strong first 11 to work with and a new approach might shake things up.

K.R.I.

Chucky the tree

kryogen wrote: »

More of a Martin Jol one if you read it, but yeah thanks, you managed to miss the point pretty well

Okay, Jol won one game in ten the season he got sacked and Spurs had a massive 7 points at the end of October. Again pretty different to where Liverpool are now. In poker you should have an idea for what you'll do on future streets when you make a bet so similiar in football who would you get in to replace Rafa that will do a better job if we sack him now? I've seen plenty of people wheel out the "sack rafa" line but very few actually have a semi realistic idea of what to do after that.

Bubs101

Mr Alan wrote: »

no offence, but Chelsea are hardly a beacon of how a club should be run. and it will also explain why despite Romans billions you will probably never build a dynasty like Liverpool have in the past & Utd have now.

sacking managers because of bad runs & forgettting all about the amazing work they've done is a game for clubs other than Liverpool.

and you'll find Fergie was supported during far worse periods than this before he built his legacy at Utd, similarly, Wenger has been massively supported despite a long barren run & Rafa being more successful since in both the league & europe since coming to England (with a team that was considerably behind Arsenal when he arrived)

and we are not a two man team. Johnson,Mascherano,Reina,Alonso,Agger would grace virtually any other top team.

Alonso is gone;)

That's a fair comment but it's impossible to build a dynasty with one benefactor. Youth programme is essential. And tbh, I'm too young to remember any period Fergie was in trouble maybe bar 2004 (I think he got in trouble sometime this decade) so I wouldn't mind enlightenment but this run is shambolic.

I have no interest in getting into one of those how good is x versus y player debates but I've a serious question for you fans. If a run of 6/7 (lost count tbh)bad games isn't enough to get you to turn on Rafa what in God's name is because for a "top team" this run is a shambles and if Fiorentina maintain their incredible home form you're playing for nothing this year and it's not even Christmas. That's a really poor job

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Okay, Jol won one game in ten the season he got sacked and Spurs had a massive 7 points at the end of October. Again pretty different to where Liverpool are now. In poker you should have an idea for what you'll do on future streets when you make a bet so similiar in football who would you get in to replace Rafa that will do a better job if we sack him now? I've seen plenty of people wheel out the "sack rafa" line but very few actually have a semi realistic idea of what to do after that.

It may come as a surprise to you but football supporters on the internet dont actually know everything when it comes to football :eek:

There are people at Liverpool Football Club paid to asess and appoint incoming staff.....not my job to scout the leagues of the world and find a replacement for Rafa so why would i?

again K.R.I.

CHD

Bubs101 wrote: »

Alonso is gone;)

That's a fair comment but it's impossible to build a dynasty with one benefactor. Youth programme is essential. And tbh, I'm too young to remember any period Fergie was in trouble maybe bar 2004 (I think he got in trouble sometime this decade) so I wouldn't mind enlightenment but this run is shambolic.

I have no interest in getting into one of those how good is x versus y player debates but I've a serious question for you fans. If a run of 6/7 (lost count tbh)bad games isn't enough to get you to turn on Rafa what in God's name is because for a "top team" this run is a shambles and if Fiorentina maintain their incredible home form you're playing for nothing this year and it's not even Christmas. That's a really poor job

They will be in the Europa League KO stages prob. If they are this will become the biggest trophy around, ask Liverpool fans if it happens

Chucky the tree

Bubs101 wrote: »

Alonso is gone;)

That's a fair comment but it's impossible to build a dynasty with one benefactor. Youth programme is essential. And tbh, I'm too young to remember any period Fergie was in trouble maybe bar 2004 (I think he got in trouble sometime this decade) so I wouldn't mind enlightenment but this run is shambolic.

Are you refering to Fergies youth policy that never got him into trouble? If who was the last young player United had to come through the ranks and break into the first team? Fletcher is the only one I can remember since the golden generation of Scholes and giggs.

Chucky the tree

kryogen wrote: »

It may come as a surprise to you but football supporters on the internet dont actually know everything when it comes to football :eek:

There are people at Liverpool Football Club paid to asess and appoint incoming staff.....not my job to scout the leagues of the world and find a replacement for Rafa so why would i?

again K.R.I.

Hopefully they have and come to the realization that rafa is still the best man for the job.

CHD

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Are you refering to Fergies youth policy that never got him into trouble? If who was the last young player United had to come through the ranks and break into the first team? Fletcher is the only one I can remember since the golden generation of Scholes and giggs.

Evans? Wellbeck? Gibson?

flahavaj

CHD wrote: »

Evans? Wellbeck? Gibson?

Not to forget Sir Wesley Brown. And the bauld Johnno.

Chucky the tree

CHD wrote: »

Evans? Wellbeck? Gibson?

None of them are regulars though, they only play when someone ahead of them is injured. JOS and sicknote brown could possible fall into the regular category. I mean Gibson and wellbeck probably won't hit 30+ appearances a season for United this year.

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Are you refering to Fergies youth policy that never got him into trouble? If who was the last young player United had to come through the ranks and break into the first team? Fletcher is the only one I can remember since the golden generation of Scholes and giggs.

Evans
Brown
Rafael
Fabio
Macheda
Wellbeck
O Shea


Take your pick