Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

None of them are regulars though, they only play when someone ahead of them is injured. JOS and sicknote brown could possible fall into the regular category. I mean Gibson and wellbeck probably won't hit 30+ appearances a season for United this year.

ok how can Brown be on your lst of united "regulars" and not Evans?

little bit mind boggling tbh

Chucky the tree

kryogen wrote: »

Evans
Rafael
Fabio
Macheda
Wellbeck



Take your pick

How many appearances have these lads many in the PL or CL this season?

Bubs101

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Are you refering to Fergies youth policy that never got him into trouble? If who was the last young player United had to come through the ranks and break into the first team? Fletcher is the only one I can remember since the golden generation of Scholes and giggs.

No, I was thinking of the last time and pretty much the only time I remember Man utd having an awful run.

PHB

Just to deal with this point, but not why it was brought up, United's youth policy was perfected pre-90 minute rule. We had the golden generation, and I've no doubt we would have had more had the rules not been changed. United took 3-4 years realising that you just needed to start buying up foreign kids at 16 and integrate them that way, improving your own kids due to the standards. The first set of fruits from that system were Rossi, Pique (who are top class players), David Jones, Shawcross, McShane (all premiership footballers) and others in the championship.

The next round are now coming through, Evans, Cleverly, Welbeck, combined with Macheda, Rafael, Fabio, Possebon and many more again. We're getting better at it and with each crop we'll see improvements. Then again, what counts as youth development these days? You used to buy at 14-16 from around the nation, but now you buy at 16-18 because you are doing it abroad.

Evans is the first of the crop to break through to be a first team regular.

Since then, I would say that since the golden generation, only O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown have broken through and all become first team regulars (and anyone who has they arent is just being stupid). But Rossi and Pique have gone on and become top class footballers no doubt.

Chucky the tree

kryogen wrote: »

ok how can Brown be on your lst of united "regulars" and not Evans?

little bit mind boggling tbh

Brown established himself as being a regular member of the United squad, Evans hasn't. This is the first season he's had a run. Fergie could just as easily sell him in the summer.

CCCP^

kryogen wrote: »

Evans
Brown
Rafael
Fabio
Macheda
Wellbeck
O Shea


Take your pick

Was one or two of those lads brought in at a certain age or straight from the Academy?

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How many appearances have these lads many in the PL or CL this season?

How many of them would have to be first team starters for you to be happy? Isn't it great situation to have 6-8 players filling out the squad that have come through the ranks at little or no cost, any of whom are more than capable of doing an excellent job when called upon?

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How many appearances have these lads many in the PL or CL this season?

lol

why dont you check yourself? ah no im feeling generous



John O Shea 15
Jonny Evans 12
Wes Brown 9,
Wellbeck 4
Fabio 3
Macheda 3
Rafael 3

season still only in november also isnt it

does the league cup not count anymore?

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Brown established himself as being a regular member of the United squad, Evans hasn't. This is the first season he's had a run. Fergie could just as easily sell him in the summer.

Not a hope of Evas being sold in the Summer. He made tonnes of appearances last season, it was he and Vidic at centre half for the entirity of Uniteds record breaking run of clean sheets. Vidic was dropped at the weekend, Evans was chosen ahead of him. He'll be at the heart of united's defence for the next decade, no doubt about it.

You have no clue what you're on about.

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Brown established himself as being a regular member of the United squad, Evans hasn't. This is the first season he's had a run. Fergie could just as easily sell him in the summer.

so Evans appearances last year didnt happen?

Fergie wasnt happy to let Pique go because he knew he had Evans ready to mak the step up?

Theres another one, Pique was another to come through the United ranks, same as Rossi as PHB has pointed out

Look you have lost this arguement so is it best not to just call it quits?

Original question, name the last player to come through the ranks (cause you didnt remember anyone since Giggs,Scholes etc.)

Answer that you must accept John O Shea, cannot have any complaints about him.

move on please

dannydiamond

kryogen wrote: »

I dunno, I mean, if Martin Jol was the right man for Spurs at the start of the season then should they have given him the rest of the season? Same applies to Ramos in their case? Getting Harry in paid off for them. Sometimes a change can be a good thing.

I am firmly in the keep the man in the job pile but as in poker, you have to re evaluate your position a lot in football!

Lol Martin Jol,Ramos? two words, five years!

If you continue like this i'm never saying hello to you in tescos again,and what the fk would you know about poker.:pac:



*I jest*

Mr. Frost

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Brown established himself as being a regular member of the United squad, Evans hasn't. This is the first season he's had a run. Fergie could just as easily sell him in the summer.

Really? Is that why he's amassed 46 appearances. Naturally most of them last year when Rio was injured. Oh and he has a Premier league winners medal too - you don't get them if you don't play at all!!

kryogen

dannydiamond wrote: »

Lol Martin Jol,Ramos? two words, five years!

If you continue like this i'm never saying hello to you in tescos again,and what the fk would you know about poker.:pac:

i know when to fold a losing hand

honestly having trouble getting your point on the first sentence?

what do you mean exactly?

dannydiamond

kryogen wrote: »

what do you mean exactly?

Relative success is what I mean.

Chucky the tree

flahavaj wrote: »

How many of them would have to be first team starters for you to be happy? Isn't it great situation to have 6-8 players filling out the squad that have come through the ranks at little or no cost, any of whom are more than capable of doing an excellent job when called upon?

Well origianlly I thought bubs was implying that it was United great youth policy that didn't stop producing top class players expect for a season or two that I didn't agree with, seemed to imply Liverpool hadn't done the same thing under Rafa and that was the main problem. But it didn't mean that anyway.

kryogen wrote: »

lol

why dont you check yourself? ah no im feeling generous

Wellbeck 2
Fabio 2
Macheda 1
Rafael 0

season still only in november also isnt it

does the league cup not count anymore?

FYS there. Thats according to wiki in there appearances in the CL or PL.

kryogen

dannydiamond wrote: »

Relative success is what I mean.

fair point....but not what i was getting at

Fact is for Liverpool, they have won one game in ten and if that is acceptable to the fans then fair enough, it would not be acceptbale at Spurs though never mind Chelsea Arsenal or United!

On a personal level, when would you begin to lose patience with Mr. Benitez?

I hope he has a job for life but im afriad if he doesnt put a few good results together he could be gone by January

its highly unlikely but is a possibilty!

Right im off to feed my newborn so ill get back to this later!

kryogen

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well origianlly I thought bubs was implying that it was United great youth policy that didn't stop producing top class players expect for a season or two that I didn't agree with, seemed to imply Liverpool hadn't done the same thing under Rafa and that was the main problem. But it didn't mean that anyway.



FYS there. Thats according to wiki in there appearances in the CL or PL.

Dont change my posts, it is neither clever nor point proving

And Wiki is an excellent source for fact.....very good!

So anyway, i include all first team appearances, cause you know......eh.....they all actually count! you dont get to move the goal posts, like i said, just accept your wrong and move on. it will feel much better

Chucky the tree

flahavaj wrote: »

Not a hope of Evas being sold in the Summer. He made tonnes of appearances last season, it was he and Vidic at centre half for the entirity of Uniteds record breaking run of clean sheets. Vidic was dropped at the weekend, Evans was chosen ahead of him. He'll be at the heart of united's defence for the next decade, no doubt about it.

You have no clue what you're on about.

lol, touchy touchy. Pique was a very good player, still is but was sold as he was deemed surplus to requirements. Will Evans, Rio or vidic be happy benching it for the next few years? Rio is still only 31 which is quite young for a defender.

kryogen wrote: »

so Evans appearances last year didnt happen?

Fergie wasnt happy to let Pique go because he knew he had Evans ready to mak the step up?

Theres another one, Pique was another to come through the United ranks, same as Rossi as PHB has pointed out

Look you have lost this arguement so is it best not to just call it quits?

Original question, name the last player to come through the ranks (cause you didnt remember anyone since Giggs,Scholes etc.)

Answer that you must accept John O Shea, cannot have any complaints about him.

move on please

I asked a question, I'm getting answers. How is that losing? It's not my fault you don't understand the point of asking a question. I agreed with JOS and Wes Brown. I'm certainly not having the likes of Avacado, the twins or Wellbeck as United regulars. Evans is highly debateable. He played 24 games in the CL and PL last season because of injuries to Vidic. 16 games a season he averages for United.

Mr. Frost wrote: »

Really? Is that why he's amassed 46 appearances. Naturally most of them last year when Rio was injured. Oh and he has a Premier league winners medal too - you don't get them if you don't play at all!!

Haven't nearly all of his appearances come because of injuries? Or is Evans now United's 1st or 2nd choice CB when everyone is fit?

m@cc@

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How many appearances have these lads many in the PL or CL this season?

The majority of them are no older than 19. Considering Scholesy didn't even make his debut until 19, I'd give them another season before considering writing them off completely.

Chucky the tree

kryogen wrote: »

Dont change my posts, it is neither clever nor point proving

And Wiki is an excellent source for fact.....very good!

So anyway, i include all first team appearances, cause you know......eh.....they all actually count! you dont get to move the goal posts, like i said, just accept your wrong and move on. it will feel much better

If your going to lie and post up stats to questions I never asked then I'm sorry but I only feel it's right I fix them. I asked how many appearances they made in the PL and CL, either answer the question or don't. Don't post up incorrect stats.

m@cc@

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Rio is still only 31 which is quite young for a defender.

Quite young? I don't know of too many 35 year old defenders playing for the Top 4 or amongst the top clubs in Europe.

Chucky the tree

m@cc@ wrote: »

The majority of them are no older than 19. Considering Scholesy didn't even make his debut until 19, I'd give them another season before considering writing them off completely.

I'm certainly not writing them off completely, I just don't think they should count as Manchester united regulars.

Chucky the tree

m@cc@ wrote: »

Quite young? I don't know of too many 35 year old defenders playing for the Top 4 or amongst the top clubs in Europe.

Where is 35 coming from? Generally a few means 2( in my eyes anyway). So will Evans be happy to take a back seat for the next 2 seasons at least? Or will Rio be happy to bench it for the last few seasons of his career? Quite young was a bad choice of phrase on my part, but he's no pensioner and probably close to his peak considering he just turned 31 this week.

nkay1985

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Where is 35 coming from? Generally a few means 2( in my eyes anyway). So will Evans be happy to take a back seat for the next 2 seasons at least? Or will Rio be happy to bench it for the last few seasons of his career? Quite young was a bad choice of phrase on my part, but he's no pensioner and probably close to his peak considering he just turned 31 this week.

You're basically hanging your whole argument on who gets in United's first 11 if everyone is fit. We all know that the modern game isn't about that. Just because a team doesn't refer to a rotation policy doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.

This is why you need 3 centre halves, 4 full backs, 3/4 central midfielders and so on and so forth to stand any chance. I'd define a United regular as any player who is regularly in the match day squad. So those who've come through the youth system that fit that category are O'Shea, Evans, Brown, Rafael/Fabio (depending on our injury situation), Fletcher, Wellbeck, Macheda.

They're all now part of the squad and it's a squad that wins you titles, a point that has been proven by Liverpool's run recently while they've had some injuries.

Xavi6

redout wrote: »

Look at it this way. If Pool go into the Uefa cup they must be among the favourites

They're already favourites with Skybet and they aren't even in it yet.

starbelgrade

Xavi6 wrote: »

They're already favourites with Skybet and they aren't even in it yet.

At least we're almost back on topic - for a minute I thought this was a thread about the relative success of Man U's academy players breaking through!

nkay1985

starbelgrade wrote: »

At least we're almost back on topic - for a minute I thought this was a thread about the relative success of Man U's academy players breaking through!

Yeah thought that myself. Which is why this was my conclusion:

nkay1985 wrote: »

They're all now part of the squad and it's a squad that wins you titles, a point that has been proven by Liverpool's run recently while they've had some injuries.

What stage of the Europa league would they enter at?

Iang87

Headshot wrote: »

question: what will it take for liverpool fans to turn their back on rafa?

he's prob gonna have to kill their families cos killing the club doesn't appear to be enough justification.

minus the CL he won with effectively Houlliers team. take a look at what he done with his own team:

1 FA Cup


hmmmmmm even pompey have an FA cup in the period of time he's been at Liverpool. oh oh and he pushed united close last year cos thats what we'll all remember when someone other than stevie lifts everything this year. To all the rafa lovers sit back in May and remember fondly us coming second last year cos that makes me feel better all the time:rolleyes:

starbelgrade

nkay1985 wrote: »

They're all now part of the squad and it's a squad that wins you titles, a point that has been proven by Liverpool's run recently while they've had some injuries.

You mean their recent run of 1 wins, 4 losses and 2 draws?

nkay1985

starbelgrade wrote: »

You mean their recent run of 1 wins, 4 losses and 2 draws?

Yeah. Liverpool don't have enough depth in their squad. Injuries hit and affected them more than they would affect United or Chelsea. That was my point.

starbelgrade

nkay1985 wrote: »

Yeah. Liverpool don't have enough depth in their squad. Injuries hit and affected them more than they would affect United or Chelsea. That was my point.

Sorry - I picked you up wrong.

Bubs101

nkay1985 wrote: »

Yeah. Liverpool don't have enough depth in their squad. Injuries hit and affected them more than they would affect United or Chelsea. That was my point.

I think it'd affect United quite a bit if Rooney got injured tbh. Anelka has shown that he can pick up Droggy's slack in the 4-5-1 if he goes down but Berba and Owen wouldn't fill me with confidence at all and I don't know who'd they'd replace Fletcher with either to get a bit of fire in their midfield.

Chelsea have insanely strong depth but Arsenal and United certainly have weak points despite being covered in most areas IMO (Arsenal's centre backs for example)

nkay1985

Bubs101 wrote: »

I think it'd affect United quite a bit if Rooney got injured tbh. Anelka has shown that he can pick up Droggy's slack in the 4-5-1 if he goes down but Berba and Owen wouldn't fill me with confidence at all and I don't know who'd they'd replace Fletcher with either to get a bit of fire in their midfield.

Chelsea have insanely strong depth but Arsenal and United certainly have weak points despite being covered in most areas IMO (Arsenal's centre backs for example)

Oh I'm not for one minute suggesting that United would be unaffected by injuries, just that they're in a better position to cope on a whole than Liverpool.

daveyboy_1ie

Lads look, you got to be patient with Rafa, I really don't get Liverpool fans sometimes. You don't actually have a right to win things every year you know, you have to earn it like everyone else.

Look at Arsenal, Wenger has done less in the last four seasons than Rafa has and last season his team really looked like they had lost their way. Yet now a season on and they look like serious contenders and thats all down to their fans and boards patience. I think its very hard to point to anyone out there who has more potential than Rafa, and the only reason people are getting on his back is because he has failed to win the league and is not challenging this season.

The level of expectation levelled at Rafa at the start of this season was unbelievable, after a season in which you win nothing but had the best challenge in most of your living memories but thats all, last season is over and you have to do it again and again. If Liverpool came third or fourth last season would the calls for Rafa's sacking be so strong? Thankfully there seems as many 'pool supporters supporting Rafa as there are against. Thats what a supporter should do, support.

On a lighter note, anyone else impressed with Aquilana, he looks like some player. Can't wait to see him match fit.

kida

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

On a lighter note, anyone else impressed with Aquilana, he looks like some player. Can't wait to see him match fit.

saw nothing in the cameo last night to suggest anything - one stevie me hollywood pass was all that I saw and it didn't come off

I also stand by waht I said earlier in the thread I don't think Rafa will be the pool manager come 1st Jan 2010. The owners have gone very quiet.

Blazer

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Yeah, I reckon after an entire 9 games of the Premier League season it's safe to say they'll probably be relegated.

If only ..that'll teach them to stop living 20 years ago and face reality :rolleyes:

daveyboy_1ie

kida wrote: »

saw nothing in the cameo last night to suggest anything - one stevie me hollywood pass was all that I saw and it didn't come off

He looked very assured on the ball and had a few short but very clever passes in both this game and the Arsenal one. As much as I admire Masch, he just has not got a decent pass in him like that.

Boggles

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

He looked very assured on the ball and had a few short but very clever passes in both this game and the Arsenal one. As much as I admire Masch, he just has not got a decent pass in him like that.

Actually Masch delivered a peach 60-70 yard cross field last night to Kuyt perfectly.

I was shocked.

gucci

kida wrote: »

I also stand by waht I said earlier in the thread I don't think Rafa will be the pool manager come 1st Jan 2010. The owners have gone very quiet.

Considering the hounding and spin doctoring by the media and certain elements of the Liverpool supporters of anything they say, can you blame them for going quiet?

(which for what its worth I don't believe they necessarily have)

SlickRic

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Lads look, you got to be patient with Rafa, I really don't get Liverpool fans sometimes. You don't actually have a right to win things every year you know, you have to earn it like everyone else.

you're preaching to most of the choir with that one.

it's non-fans generally looking to put loads of pressure on him.

the majority of fans know we are not the club we were 20/30 years ago, and any expectations people may have of us are high based on that heritage, rather than realism.

daveyboy_1ie

Boggles wrote: »

Actually Masch delivered a peach 60-70 yard cross field last night to Kuyt perfectly.I was shocked.

Probably a shot lol

Mental Mickey

nkay1985 wrote: »

Yeah. Liverpool don't have enough depth in their squad. Injuries hit and affected them more than they would affect United or Chelsea. That was my point.

This. And ye can blame Rafa for that.

K-9

Boggles wrote: »

Actually Masch delivered a peach 60-70 yard cross field last night to Kuyt perfectly.

I was shocked.

I've seen him do that in a few games. Doesn't do it enough though.

gucci

K-9 wrote: »

I've seen him do that in a few games. Doesn't do it enough though.

True, but I think he should maybe give taking corners a miss, although Liverpools deliveries are generally pathetic from corners, so Sammy Lee should actually probably take them himself.

daveyboy_1ie

K-9 wrote: »

I've seen him do that in a few games. Doesn't do it enough though.

Well in fairness Masch is a ball winner and one of the very best at it, let his CM partner grab all the headlines with the Hollywood passes. Keane for United was brillant at what he did, and never tried anything fancy in a game. This is why he was rarely caught out of position and rarely gave the ball away.

No point in him trying to be more than that, he is there to break up play and distribute balls to his team so they can use it effectively. If mash starts to attempt these type of passes you know he is frustrated at his fellow midfielders in not doing what they are supposed to be doing.

gucci

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Well in fairness Masch is a ball winner and one of the very best at it, let his CM partner grab all the headlines with the Hollywood passes. Keane for United was brillant at what he did, and never tried anything fancy in a game. This is why he was rarely caught out of position and rarely gave the ball away.

No point in him trying to be more than that, he is there to break up play and distribute balls to his team so they can use it effectively. If mash starts to attempt these type of passes you know he is frustrated at his fellow midfielders in not doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Yeah thats the way to turn a game around, leave it to someone else to do!! :pac::pac:

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Actually Masch delivered a peach 60-70 yard cross field last night to Kuyt perfectly.

I was shocked.

he actually does that a lot more often than people like to give him credit for.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

This. And ye can blame Rafa for that.

or the fact that we have the second highest expectation among our fan base.

but yet the 5th most expensive squad & the 5th highest wage bill.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

or the fact that we have the second highest expectation among our fan base.

but yet the 5th most expensive squad & the 5th highest wage bill.

How does that affect the depth of the squad? Seriously? Fan expectation affects squad make up?

mirwillbeback

I started this thread on 17/10 and many of the original comments were pretty dismissive of my reasons. However, if anything the situation has gotten far worse for Liverpool since then, the only good news I can see is that the main challengers for 4th haven't really pulled away yet.
No matter whether you like Rafa, or love Liverpool, I can't understand how the fans continue to tolerate the performances and the quality that are currently being churned out. Having to cheat to get a draw at home to a newly promoted side would suggest a level of desperation at the club, one that does not suit the Liverpool way, and the fair play they are generally one of the better clubs for.
Next up is Man City at home, a draw / loss there, and I reckon, as the thread title suggests, " Rafa is done ".

everdead.ie

I think all the challagers for the top four have been lucky in that everyoe has gone through a bad patch at the same time but in the next ten games i think we'll see a huge rift between the teams and i reckon it'll be wittled down to maybe two clus challaging for 4th if liverpool aren't one of them his job will become untenable