Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Prufrock

Prufrock wrote: »

The real acid test for Liverpool will be Man City. They have to prove they're a top 4 team against the best of the rest. Also they can't let the gap between them and ManC get any bigger in terms of points. It will be a big game for Rafa and Liverpool.

Obviously this is assuming that Liverpool manage to get 3 points on Monday. :pac:

How wrong I was. Man City is a hugh game for Rafa now.

Dub13

I have just deleted a few posts that were about United's youth system,lets stay on topic.

Mental Mickey

Mitch Connor wrote: »

How does that affect the depth of the squad? Seriously? Fan expectation affects squad make up?

I don't understand his point either?? If, God forbid, we lose against Man City, then the Yanks seriously need to look at Rafa's position!! Who do we get to replace him, though?

blackbetty69

oh god, if we lose yossi.....:(

Hes been our best player this season imo, so comfortable on the ball rarely ever gives it away

leninbenjamin

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Look at Arsenal, Wenger has done less in the last four seasons than Rafa has and last season his team really looked like they had lost their way. Yet now a season on and they look like serious contenders and thats all down to their fans and boards patience.

Big difference between Arsenal's situation and Pool's. First, since they won the league Arsene's job has been about rebuilding the side since the change of the old guard. Vieira, Bergkamp, Campbell, Henry, Pires, Silva, Ljunberg all had to be replaced in a very short space of time, and all on very limited resources because of the financial burden the Emirates Stadium placed on the club.

Benitez on the other hand has been trying to build his team around the same few individuals since 2004, yet seemingly cannot find any consistency in his squad. This despite a net spend of 80million*. Arsene's net spend is 4 (some would say it's positive).

* taken from football.co.uk

Warper

The question is "Are Liverpool and Rafa done?".

Well they are out of the CL, out of the race for the PL, out of the Carling Cup and their only chance of silverware this season is the FA Cup. So the answer is Yes. We aren't even a third of the way gone this season and their season is all but over.

Mr Alan

Mitch Connor wrote: »

How does that affect the depth of the squad? Seriously? Fan expectation affects squad make up?

i was more getting at the fact that having the 5th highest wages & the 5th most expensive team affects the quality of player we can keep, for example, Keane could be a squad player at Liverpool, or Bellamy,or Sissiko, or Crouch, but they all had to be sold because we've got to sell to buy & can't afford big wages sitting on the bench....yet our fans think our squad should be as strong as Utd/Chelsea. Never gonna happen, the fact that our first team is as strong as anyones is a minor miracle in itself.

Headshot

i thought crouch was sold because he wanted first team opportunites ? Same with bellamy

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

i was more getting at the fact that having the 5th highest wages & the 5th most expensive team affects the quality of player we can keep, for example, Keane could be a squad player at Liverpool, or Bellamy,or Sissiko, or Crouch, but they all had to be sold because we've got to sell to buy & can't afford big wages sitting on the bench....yet our fans think our squad should be as strong as Utd/Chelsea. Never gonna happen, the fact that our first team is as strong as anyones is a minor miracle in itself.

I call bullsh*t tbh.

More prudent spending in the transfer market would have yielded more money for wages.

Your wage levels are still pretty close to Arsenal's (the extra resources Arsenal spend on wages pretty much match the extra spending in the transfers by Benitez) and the top 5 are miles ahead of the rest of the league.

For such a large club, with such a large fanbase, your revenue is absolutely appalling. I cannot for a second understand why Chelsea's turnover should be larger than Pools. That imo points to financial mismanagement.

syngindub

Gerard and Torres should be back against Man City which is a big plus for them. I'd fancy Liverpool to win that game all day. City aren't having it their way either recently and maybe another thread will be starting soon about Hughes position at City

Kess73

syngindub wrote: »

Gerard and Torres should be back against Man City which is a big plus for them. I'd fancy Liverpool to win that game all day. City aren't having it their way either recently and maybe another thread will be starting soon about Hughes position at City

Liverpool versus City? Two teams that are leaking and scoring goals. Seems perfect for a 3-3 or 4-4, so will prob end up a dour 0-0.

Boggles

Lose to City. He is gone I reckon.

1 win in 10, he can't expect to be kept on and should move aside.

kida

Boggles wrote: »

Lose to City. He is gone I reckon.

1 win in 10, he can't expect to be kept on and should move aside.

would go as far as say, not winning not just losing

Morzadec

Boggles wrote: »

Lose to City. He is gone I reckon.

1 win in 10, he can't expect to be kept on and should move aside.

Really?

Lets put aside the talk of whether we think he should go or not for the moment because this thread is very divided on this issue as we all know.

But I've seen posts like these, and another post that said they would be surprised if Rafa was still in charge in Jan 2010, and I have to say I disagree. Anyone who knows anything about the club and Rafa at the moment would agree that it is pretty unlikely that Rafa won't be on charge in January for numerous reasons.

I'm sure you could get a pretty decent price on this if anyone thinks it is a likely possibility.

Boggles

Morzadec wrote: »

Really?

Lets put aside the talk of whether we think he should go or not for the moment because this thread is very divided on this issue as we all know.

But I've seen posts like these, and another post that said they would be surprised if Rafa was still in charge in Jan 2010, and I have to say I disagree. Anyone who knows anything about the club and Rafa at the moment would agree that it is pretty unlikely that Rafa won't be on charge in January for numerous reasons.

I'm sure you could get a pretty decent price on this if anyone thinks it is a likely possibility.

He is favourite at the moment to be first gone at 4/1.

Not too unreasonble to suggest if he gets beaten by City and on the following Tuesday exits the CL, which looks extremely likely.

The yanks could fire the bullet.

SlickRic

whether he should or not is irrelevant really.

the yanks will sack him without a second's thought i feel.

i can't wait for klinsmann already :rolleyes:

kida

SlickRic wrote: »

whether he should or not is irrelevant really.

the yanks will sack him without a second's thought i feel.

i can't wait for klinsmann already :rolleyes:

they have gone very quiet lately

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

whether he should or not is irrelevant really.

the yanks will sack him without a second's thought i feel.

i can't wait for klinsmann already :rolleyes:

I think if my above scenario happens, the Yanks will have alot more support in getting rid of him then you would think.

Right now the fans are clinging to the hope that they can bounce back in the league and they still have a chance in the CL.

If that goes, the fans will too.

Mr Alan

Headshot wrote: »

i thought crouch was sold because he wanted first team opportunites ? Same with bellamy

lucrative long term contracts have a tendancy to make people happy enough with a lack of a lot of playing time.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I call bullsh*t tbh.

More prudent spending in the transfer market would have yielded more money for wages.

Your wage levels are still pretty close to Arsenal's (the extra resources Arsenal spend on wages pretty much match the extra spending in the transfers by Benitez) and the top 5 are miles ahead of the rest of the league.

For such a large club, with such a large fanbase, your revenue is absolutely appalling. I cannot for a second understand why Chelsea's turnover should be larger than Pools. That imo points to financial mismanagement.

you've actually kind of proved the point i've been trying to make & something a lot of people overlook when talking about the millions Rafa wasted.

Arsenals extra wages roughly equal the extra money Rafa has spent in the transfer market. therefore him & Wenger are on about level pegging, finance wise. yet Rafa has been more successful in Europe & more successful in the league since he arrived.

Arsene=Hero, and Rafa=Epic Failure. it just does not make any sense.

And i agree that commercially, our club has been mismanaged for years, its picking up now, but unfortunately all those monies are just paying for our owners to buy the club.

kida

Is there any anfield regulars here? what is the feeling on the ground amongst the diehards?

Mr Alan

Boggles, for someone who was going on about the fans turning on Benitez even last year when we were playing amazing & beating most teams with ease, you must be loving a genuine crisis

Morzadec

SlickRic wrote: »

whether he should or not is irrelevant really.

the yanks will sack him without a second's thought i feel.

i can't wait for klinsmann already :rolleyes:

You think so yeh? I'm really not so sure for these 2 main reasons:

1. It'll cost way too much
2. Rafa still has the majority backing of the fans I feel, and if they sack him and replace him with Klinsmann there will be riots on the streets and I don't think the yanks want to become even more unpopular than they are already.

If we hire Klinsmann I'd be devestated. He's completely unproven. I can see us completely losing pace with Chelsea, United and Arsenal longterm and dropping out of the top 4. (i.e. we will be back to where we were before Rafa came, struggling to get into the Champions League).

If he were to go I can't think of many realistic options to replace him that I'd be happy and confident with. Roy Hodgson perhaps? Can anyone think of anyone else?

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Morzadec

kida wrote: »

Is there any anfield regulars here? what is the feeling on the ground amongst the diehards?

Good question, because the answer will go a long way to settling the argument about whether an imminent sacking is a realistic possiblity. Unfortunately I can't answer you, but my general impression (from watching on the box/ taking boards.ie fans as a sample) is that the fans are still behind him in the main for now.

There weren't many boos last night after what was a dissappointing result on the back of a really dissappointing run, although it would have been quite harsh to boo the teams performance last night I feel.

Morzadec

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Figurre of speech wasn't meant to be taken literally.

raido9

Its mainly opposition supporters hoping Rafa gets the sack.

The disruption of the sacking and the chances that the new manager will do even worse with Rafa's average squad is more appealing than Rafa staying on. Its not so long ago it was looking like the unthinkable (Liverpool winning the league) was very much on the cards.

Sacking Rafa because of media pressure would screw the club royally.

Headshot

raido9 wrote: »

Its mainly opposition supporters hoping Rafa gets the sack.

The disruption of the sacking and the chances that the new manager will do even worse with Rafa's average squad is more appealing than Rafa staying on. Its not so long ago it was looking like the unthinkable (Liverpool winning the league) was very much on the cards.

Sacking Rafa because of media pressure would screw the club royally.

noooooo

Boggles

raido9 wrote: »

Sacking Rafa because of media pressure would screw the club royally.

Honestly whatever pressure the media could exort on Rafa would be a minute fraction of the pressure he will heap upon himself if he doesn't beat City next week.

It won't be the media that get him sacked.

Kess73

kida wrote: »

Is there any anfield regulars here? what is the feeling on the ground amongst the diehards?

I would not be what I would call a regular anymore, not now that I am back living in Ireland full time but I still get to about 10 to 12 home games in all comps a season and to a slightly lesser number of away games. This is helped by the fact many of my family still live in Liverpool so accommodation and getting tickets is made easier for me because of that.

The mood amongst those living in Liverpool would still be mostly in favour of Rafa, but for every three that are behind him, there would be one that wants him out. For me he still has the support of the locals, but there are more that are willing to question him now.

I generally would not use the ground as a gauge of what support is like locally for him as a large number each week in the ground are not local, so their opinions would be similar, imho, to what you see on here or any other fansite. Plus at the ground, people are less likely to want to speak out against him, bar a few knobheads who pretty much come to the games just to get on the backs of certain players regardless of how good or bad they are playing.

Even if this season turned into a total disaster, I would still reckon that the worst case scenario for Rafa, in terms of fan support, is a 50/50 split between those who want him out, and those who want him to stay.

It was that way at the end of Ged's time at the club and I think Rafa is thought of with a little more affection that Ged was, even though Ged was thought highly of at his peak.

event

kida wrote: »

Is there any anfield regulars here? what is the feeling on the ground amongst the diehards?

mate of mine goes over a good bit
spoke him around a week ago, said the most were still behind him, my friend included, but he felt that not as much as previously. thinks it could start to turn bad if things keep on this path for a long while

and the people who are saying the media could get him the sack, thats rubbish. Do you think G+H read the Sun and the Star and let that sway them?

i really believe if they were going to sack him they would have done so already.

Kess73

raido9 wrote: »

Its mainly opposition supporters hoping Rafa gets the sack.

The disruption of the sacking and the chances that the new manager will do even worse with Rafa's average squad is more appealing than Rafa staying on. Its not so long ago it was looking like the unthinkable (Liverpool winning the league) was very much on the cards.

Sacking Rafa because of media pressure would screw the club royally.

That will simply not happen. If it were a case that the media could pressure the club into sacking him, then it would have happened already.

Not even the owners would make a gaff like bowing to media pressure in a city that is very sensitive to the media, and a city that tends to round on the media, more than most cities, when it feels like the media is targetting one of their own.

The only thing that will either sack Rafa or get him to step down is results, not the media.

And I think the current owners are too savvy to make the same mistake of trying to replace Rafa too soon. They will wait and see how the results pan out for the rest of the season.

mayordenis

I'm not a regular either but I was there last night - and the support was close to total - I heard 1 person getting disgruntled in all of the Anfield Road end, I think most people could see that that ball just wouldn't drop for us.

I'm not too sure how we did not win that game btw.

daveyboy_1ie

mayordenis wrote: »

I'm not too sure how we did not win that game btw.

I agree, it's a hard one to explain to people who did not see it but fair play to Birmingham for battling so well and they were awesome at a lot of what they do but 'pool should have blown them away, they had so many chances, and good ones at that. So for once you can applaud a team for battling so well but at same time be astounded they were not beaten, and beaten well.

mayordenis

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

I agree, it's a hard one to explain to people who did not see it but fair play to Birmingham for battling so well and they were awesome at a lot of what they do but 'pool should have blown them away, they had so many chances, and good ones at that. So for once you can applaud a team for battling so well but at same time be astounded they were not beaten, and beaten well.

Sums it up nicely, I don't begrudge them the point - the strike from jerome was a piece of genuine brilliance.

SlickRic

when i was there last, for the lyon game, in the Kop, the disgruntlement was towards the players for the vast majority.

rafa got stick for the benny substitution, and rightfully so.

but apart from that, i did not hear anybody turning on him.

hopefully lyon do us an unlikely favour, and i can head over to the Fiorentina game, and look forward to getting an update.

as well as what could be another one of those great nights of course.

Headshot

here's the pp choices for the next liverpool manager


Jose Mourinho 11/4
Kenny Dalglish 3/1
Roberto Mancini 10/1
Jurgen Klinnsmann 11/1
Martin O'Neill 14/1
Gus Hiddink 16/1
Frank Rijkaard 16/1
Juande Ramos 20/1
Marco Van Basten 25/1
Manuel Pellegrini 25/1
Marcelo Lippi 28/1
Bernt Schuster 28/1
Steve McClaren 28/1
Sammy Lee 28/1 (lol)
Steve Nicol 28/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 33/1
Slaven Bilic 33/1
Didier Deschamps 33/1

theres alot more but really outsiders

Warper

Liverpool have a number of problems atm:

- Torres and Gerrard constantly getting injured
- Dodgy back 4
- Just 1 top-class striker

If they could field their strongest 11 every week they are an excellent side but what team can field their top 11 every week - none.

Insua looks very average and Agger/ Skrtel are an accident waiting to happen.

Aquilani could be a great signing so they have an excellent midfield with him, Gerrard, Masch, Riera and Benayoun. Also Babel should be given more playing time as he is talented. They are having a very bad run atm though and they have to ensure they finish in the top 4 this season or it could get a lot worse. Regards sacking Rafa, I think they will give him until the end of the season and reconsider then.

mayordenis

Warper wrote: »

Liverpool have a number of problems atm:

- Torres and Gerrard constantly getting injured
- Dodgy back 4
- Just 1 top-class striker

If they could field their strongest 11 every week they are an excellent side but what team can field their top 11 every week - none.

Insua looks very average and Agger/ Skrtel are an accident waiting to happen.

Aquilani could be a great signing so they have an excellent midfield with him, Gerrard, Masch, Riera and Benayoun. Also Babel should be given more playing time as he is talented. They are having a very bad run atm though and they have to ensure they finish in the top 4 this season or it could get a lot worse. Regards sacking Rafa, I think they will give him until the season and reconsider then.

I think some of that is a bit harsh - I think Agger and Skrtel can form one of the best partnerships around, Agger for me is the best footballing centre back around, if he can get past hisinjuries he can be huge for us,
Skrtel is pretty quick, very strong and has everything in his locker to be a great CB - they just need to gel - bar the fiasco of the first goal they were pretty good together last night for what was (I believe) there first ever game together.

Insua being average again is a bit harsh - the guy just made the step up to the first team and has played basically every game since the start of the season, he's been thoroughly thrown in at the deep end and that's asking alot, when he was playing in a liverpool side with top players he looked a top player when injuries hit and the overall squad form sipped so did his.

I agree our overall squad depth isn't a strong as it could be but we're not talking about just 1/2 injuries, we're actually talking about a liteny of injuries about 11 or so a week ago that include our 2 main goalscorers, a suspension for who is considered our first choice centre back, and just not a shred of luck.

mayordenis

mayordenis wrote: »

I'm not a regular either but I was there last night - and the support was close to total - I heard 1 person getting disgruntled in all of the Anfield Road end, I think most people could see that that ball just wouldn't drop for us.

I'm not too sure how we did not win that game btw.

I think a few posters(mainly those that know fook all about LFC) who have been posting complete nonsense should take note of this

Berti Vogts

mayordenis wrote: »

Skrtel is pretty quick, very strong and has everything in his locker to be a great CB - they just need to gel - bar the fiasco of the first goal they were pretty good together last night for what was (I believe) there first ever game together.

Agree with you about Skrtel being quick and strong but is he good enough in the air?

Kess73

Headshot wrote: »

here's the pp choices for the next liverpool manager


Jose Mourinho 11/4
Kenny Dalglish 3/1
Roberto Mancini 10/1
Jurgen Klinnsmann 11/1
Martin O'Neill 14/1
Gus Hiddink 16/1
Frank Rijkaard 16/1
Juande Ramos 20/1
Marco Van Basten 25/1
Manuel Pellegrini 25/1
Marcelo Lippi 28/1
Bernt Schuster 28/1
Steve McClaren 28/1
Sammy Lee 28/1 (lol)
Steve Nicol 28/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 33/1
Slaven Bilic 33/1
Didier Deschamps 33/1

theres alot more but really outsiders

Jaysus PP have put some right rubbish on that list. Then again they will always find some mugs that will bet on the longer shots on that list.

Just looking throuth all the names there, if Rafa was gone in the morning, there is only one name on the list I would be happy with, one other that I would be happy with in a caretaker short term role, and then two others that I would consider but not be over the moon about.

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

here's the pp choices for the next liverpool manager


Jose Mourinho 11/4
Kenny Dalglish 3/1
Roberto Mancini 10/1
Jurgen Klinnsmann 11/1
Martin O'Neill 14/1
Gus Hiddink 16/1
Frank Rijkaard 16/1
Juande Ramos 20/1
Marco Van Basten 25/1
Manuel Pellegrini 25/1
Marcelo Lippi 28/1
Bernt Schuster 28/1
Steve McClaren 28/1
Sammy Lee 28/1 (lol)
Steve Nicol 28/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 33/1
Slaven Bilic 33/1
Didier Deschamps 33/1

theres alot more but really outsiders

Mourinho is also 3/1 Fav for the united job on Betfair !!

mayordenis

Possibilities wrote: »

Agree with you about Skrtel being quick and strong but is he good enough in the air?

Right now, no he's not - a year ago I would of said yes

Mr Alan

Warper wrote: »

Liverpool have a number of problems atm:

- Torres and Gerrard constantly getting injured
- Dodgy back 4
- Just 1 top-class striker

If they could field their strongest 11 every week they are an excellent side but what team can field their top 11 every week - none.

Insua looks very average and Agger/ Skrtel are an accident waiting to happen.

Aquilani could be a great signing so they have an excellent midfield with him, Gerrard, Masch, Riera and Benayoun. Also Babel should be given more playing time as he is talented. They are having a very bad run atm though and they have to ensure they finish in the top 4 this season or it could get a lot worse. Regards sacking Rafa, I think they will give him until the end of the season and reconsider then.

mayordenis wrote: »

I think some of that is a bit harsh - I think Agger and Skrtel can form one of the best partnerships around, Agger for me is the best footballing centre back around, if he can get past hisinjuries he can be huge for us,
Skrtel is pretty quick, very strong and has everything in his locker to be a great CB - they just need to gel - bar the fiasco of the first goal they were pretty good together last night for what was (I believe) there first ever game together.

Insua being average again is a bit harsh - the guy just made the step up to the first team and has played basically every game since the start of the season, he's been thoroughly thrown in at the deep end and that's asking alot, when he was playing in a liverpool side with top players he looked a top player when injuries hit and the overall squad form sipped so did his.

I agree our overall squad depth isn't a strong as it could be but we're not talking about just 1/2 injuries, we're actually talking about a liteny of injuries about 11 or so a week ago that include our 2 main goalscorers, a suspension for who is considered our first choice centre back, and just not a shred of luck.

when people refer to the media hounding him out of a job & being afraid of that, this is a perfect of example of what i mean.

Agger & Skrtel have both been brilliant brilliant buys by Rafa, two of the best young centre backs in Europe....similarly with Insua, who despite having a great start to his career has struggled over the last few weeks along with the rest of our defence. BUT the media has started slating Agger/Skrtel & Insua, the lads on RTE & Sky were at it & now all of a sudden these players are viewed as liabilities. absolute nonsense.

my fear is that the lies that are peddled in the media, be they about the number of players bought, the amount spent, the quality of the first team etc will start to be swallowed among the more cluess members among our fanbase & in turn these clowns will start calling for his head.....wats that saying about empty vessels?

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

my fear is that the lies that are peddled in the media, be they about the number of players bought, the amount spent, the quality of the first team etc will start to be swallowed among the more cluess members among our fanbase & in turn these clowns will start calling for his head.....wats that saying about empty vessels?

Rafa only has himself to blame for his transfer coming under so much scrutiny. There wasn't a mention of them until he started complaing about the other managers spending much more than him, a complaint that has been shown to have no basis in fact when he first raised it.

Mr Alan

are you messing?! long before Rafa mentioned anything to do with Ferguson he was accused of squandering billions.

nkay1985

Whether Rafa should or should not be sacked (personally, if I was a Liverpool fan, there's no way I'd be looking for him to be gone; there's just nobody they could get that I'd feel would do a better job), I feel like the owners basically don't have the power to do it. They're as unpopular with the fans as they ever were. Getting rid of Rafa while there's still a lot of people supporting him would be suicide!

I think it's a lot to do with Liverpool fans' expectations. I feel the reality is that with the squad they have in comparison to United and Chelsea, the expectation would realistically be that their natural position is 3rd or 4th. Only if they got below the number of injuries over the course of the season would I expect them to be challenging for the title. They were great in the second half of last season but I think that standard is the exception rather than the normal for Liverpool.

So I think Alan's got a point in mentioning the fans' expectations, he just said it in a post with something else so that it didn't really make sense!

EDIT:
A question to Liverpool fans: What were your expectations for the club at the start of the season (League position, Champions League performance)? And do you now feel that that was unrealistic or not?

Berti Vogts

mayordenis wrote: »

Right now, no he's not - a year ago I would of said yes

I know this theory is a bit simplistic but I think there's a link between how many goals defenders get from corners/free kicks and how commanding they are in the air defensively. E.g. Hyppia, Terry, Vidic.

At the moment, you get the feeling Liverpool could have 100 corners and wouldn't score once from a header. This weakness is then reflected in stuff like Birmingham's first goal last night.

mayordenis

Possibilities wrote: »

I know this theory is a bit simplistic but I think there's a link between how many goals defenders get from corners/free kicks and how commanding they are in the air defensively. E.g. Hyppia, Terry, Vidic.

At the moment, you get the feeling Liverpool could have 100 corners and wouldn't score once from a header. This weakness is then reflected in stuff like Birmingham's first goal last night.

Aye some times the obvious answer is right - people can over analise the situation but right now it's coming down to as you say nobody taking control in either box and sticking a head on it.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

are you messing?! long before Rafa mentioned anything to do with Ferguson he was accused of squandering billions.

No I'm not messing Al. I stand by what I said . Up to a few season ago most people though United had massively out spend Liverpool, Most people were surprised when this was shown to be untrue. Rafa made a mistake by highlighting transfers, He should not have made the statements he did becuse he should have known them to be untrue and he should have realised it was only a matter of time before somone did the sums and called him on it.