Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Morzadec

Jesus this thread already has more replies than the entire Arsenal thread and it probably won't be long til it surpasses the Chelsea one.

Although hopefully a win against City might prevent the customary bump.

SlickRic

Morzadec wrote: »

Jesus this thread already has more replies than the entire Arsenal thread and it probably won't be long til it surpasses the Chelsea one.

Although hopefully a win against City might prevent the customary bump.

tbf, it'll be bumped after pretty much every f*cking game.

...by over excited liverpool fans after good wins, proclaiming 'how could we ever think of sacking him?'

...and by other fans, even quicker, when stuff like last night happens.

it will be a neverending saga on these boards.

thanks OP for the thread idea

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arsenals extra wages roughly equal the extra money Rafa has spent in the transfer market. therefore him & Wenger are on about level pegging, finance wise. yet Rafa has been more successful in Europe & more successful in the league since he arrived.

Barely. One major trophy in 5 seasons distinguishes them. Otherwise they are a remarkably similar record.

Arsenal:
2nd x 1,
3rd x 1
4th x 3
Points: 373

FA Cup x 1

Liverpool:
2nd x 1
3rd x 2
4th x 1
5th x 1
Points: 370

FA Cup x 1
Champ. Lge x 1

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arsene=Hero, and Rafa=Epic Failure. it just does not make any sense.

Yes it does, in some sense at least. It was Arsene's prudence in the transfer market that enabled Arsenal to fund the Emirates (He also made Arsenal the best team in history just a season before but let's not go down that route...). Any other club in the premiership would require outside investment to be able to afford the £400million investment (with the exception of United of course if they weren't saddled with the Glazer's personal debt). Yet he's managed to keep them playing entertaining football, being in and around the top guns and completed an entire overhaul of the side.

Now you're right that calling Benitez a failure is harsh, but since the Champions League what has he done with them? He's brought in scores of players yet has been relying on the same set of 4 of 5 individuals without adequately complementing the squad. Last season he sells your best midfielder, overpays for the fullback he should have bought from day one and still rely's on bit part players like Voronin and Lucas. How is that much different from Smicer and Biscan?

Now i know owner problems have played a huge problem for Liverpool's recent ambitions, but I just don't see the same progress as i do with my own Arsenal. Wenger has a clear vision, he's bought his core and he's slowly building his squad around them. Benetiz has been successful at creating his own core too, but still fails to plug the gaps 5 years on.

Tbh over the 5 years both manager's performance has been mediocre. But judging the signs the next 5 could be very different and i know who'd i prefer.

The Muppet

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Barely. One major trophy in 5 seasons distinguishes them. Otherwise they are a remarkably similar record.

Arsenal:
2nd x 1,
3rd x 1
4th x 3
Points: 373

FA Cup x 1

Liverpool:
2nd x 1
3rd x 2
4th x 1
5th x 1
Points: 370

FA Cup x 1
Champ. Lge x 1



Yes it does, in some sense at least. It was Arsene's prudence in the transfer market that enabled Arsenal to fund the Emirates (He also made Arsenal the best team in history just a season before but let's not go down that route...). Any other club in the premiership would require outside investment to be able to afford the £400million investment (with the exception of United of course if they weren't saddled with the Glazer's personal debt). Yet he's managed to keep them playing entertaining football, being in and around the top guns and completed an entire overhaul of the side.

Now you're right that calling Benitez a failure is harsh, but since the Champions League what has he done with them? He's brought in scores of players yet has been relying on the same set of 4 of 5 individuals without adequately complementing the squad. Last season he sells your best midfielder, overpays for the fullback he should have bought from day one and still rely's on bit part players like Voronin and Lucas. How is that much different from Smicer and Biscan?

Now i know owner problems have played a huge problem for Liverpool's recent ambitions, but I just don't see the same progress as i do with my own Arsenal. Wenger has a clear vision, he's bought his core and he's slowly building his squad around them. Benetiz has been successful at creating his own core too, but still fails to plug the gaps 5 years on.

Tbh over the 5 years both manager's performance has been mediocre. But judging the signs the next 5 could be very different and i know who'd i prefer.

Good post There are other significant differences on the financial front too. For example over the five years the difference in the net spend on players between Benitez and Wenger is a whooping £140 million in Rafas favour.

Wenger is the worst choice of manager for to make comparisons with .

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

Good post There are other significant differences on the financial front too. For example over the five years the difference in the net spend on players between Benitez and Wenger is a whooping £140 million in Rafas favour.

Wenger is the worst choice of manager for to make comparisons with .

£140m or a champions league win it boils down to then.

Champions league win thanks very much.

Chucky the tree

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Barely. One major trophy in 5 seasons distinguishes them. Otherwise they are a remarkably similar record.

Arsenal:
2nd x 1,
3rd x 1
4th x 3
Points: 373

FA Cup x 1

Liverpool:
2nd x 1
3rd x 2
4th x 1
5th x 1
Points: 370

FA Cup x 1
Champ. Lge x 1



Yes it does, in some sense at least. It was Arsene's prudence in the transfer market that enabled Arsenal to fund the Emirates (He also made Arsenal the best team in history just a season before but let's not go down that route...). Any other club in the premiership would require outside investment to be able to afford the £400million investment (with the exception of United of course if they weren't saddled with the Glazer's personal debt). Yet he's managed to keep them playing entertaining football, being in and around the top guns and completed an entire overhaul of the side.

On the financial front having the ability to recoup a large amount of money from turning highbury into apartments is also a big advantage for Arsenal being able to afford their new stadium. I think everyone will agree under David Moores and Rick Parry Liverpools commericial side was severly neglected which has been hugely costly in never being able to fund a new stadium.

As for entertaining Liverpool were hugely entertaining last year, scored the most goals in the league by a difference of 9. We scored 77 goals a total which Arsenal haven't hit since 2005. Not only that but Rafa has done it while also overhauling the side. How many starters are still left in the team that finished 5th in his first season? Gerrard and Carragher isn't it? I'm not claiming we are more entertaining then Arsenal(no one is) but we've improved alot since Rafa first few seasons.

Now you're right that calling Benitez a failure is harsh, but since the Champions League what has he done with them?

FA cup winners, Champions league finalists, semi-finalist and quarters finalists, Arsenals isn't to shabby either tbh, 1 final, 1 semi, 1 quarter and a last 16. Since 2005 we've only finished behind Arsenal once in the league.

He's brought in scores of players yet has been relying on the same set of 4 of 5 individuals without adequately complementing the squad. Last season he sells your best midfielder, overpays for the fullback he should have bought from day one and

He sold our best midfielder because he wanted to leave, ask Fergie what it's like trying to keep your best midfielder when Real Madrid come knocking. As for you're Glen Johnsons reference, talk about damned if you do damned if you don't. From day 1 rightback was no where near problem position with Finnan in the team. Even last year we had an excellent one. But when he does replace with a player who's probably been our best player this season it's still a bad move because he overpaid. :rolleyes:

still rely's on bit part players like Voronin and Lucas. How is that much different from Smicer and Biscan?

wow, comparing Biscan to Lucas? Lucas has showed in numerous games against United what his potential is. Honestly Lucas is like the second coming of Darren fletcher. Fletcher got an awful amount of abuse from his own fans for being "****" etc etc but Fergie persisted with him and look at him now? He's class. Lucas is only 22 and in 3 years time when's 25 like Fletcher is now I've no doubt he'll be just as good if not better.

Now i know owner problems have played a huge problem for Liverpool's recent ambitions, but I just don't see the same progress as i do with my own Arsenal. Wenger has a clear vision, he's bought his core and he's slowly building his squad around them. Benetiz has been successful at creating his own core too, but still fails to plug the gaps 5 years on.

Tbh over the 5 years both manager's performance has been mediocre. But judging the signs the next 5 could be very different and i know who'd i prefer.

You talk about building a core but will Arsene be able to keep all of his players? We seen in the last few years with Cole, Henry and Ade that Arsenal struggle to keep hold of some of their best players. Liverpool have only lost Alonso. Rafa has a clear vision two and his building a pretty impressive core, how anyone can think other wise is beyond me to be honest. Probably are best first choice 11.

Reina(27)

Glen Johnson(25) Agger(24) Martin Skretl(25) Insua(20)

Kuyt(29) Mascherano(25) Aqualani(25) Benayoun(29)

Gerrard(29) Torres(25)

If that isn't an impressive core I have no clue what is. Not 1 players over 30. I said this a weeks ago or so in the BBV that for the first time in my memory I honestly think this year that if Liverpool and United were to combine a best 11 it would include majority Liverpool players(Reina, Glen Johnson, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun) I'd have Benayon right wing and I agree that one is debatable but I don't think anyone can argue with the other 5 not being easily definite starters, and then there's still Aqualani who could easily get in if he adapts to the PL well.


I will agree that the next 5 years are looking more positive for Arsenal, but the main reason is down to how both clubs are run by the owners(Or shareholders at Arsenal but that looks like changing).

The Muppet

rarnes1 wrote: »

£140m or a champions league win it boils down to then.

Champions league win thanks very much.

Nice try but £115 million of that £140 million has been spend after the Champions leage win, Pretty expensive FA cup win I would say.

ROCKMAN

rarnes1 wrote: »

£140m or a champions league win it boils down to then.

Champions league win thanks very much.

The Muppet wrote: »

Nice try but £115 million of that £140 million has been spend after the Champions leage win, Pretty expensive FA cup win I would say.

Wenger the odd league title aswell (ok before spending)
but
League title for Liverpool/Rafa = Priceless

Kess73

Funny how last week when I was comparing Rafa and Wenger I had Utd fans saying it was not a valid comparison and should not be done. But this week when it suits their own arguements a Rafa/Wenger comparison is totally valid.


If Arsenal's run with a trophy is simply a transitional period, then how long will it actually go on for? Wenger has had the luxury of being manager of Arsenal for seven years before this "transitional period began. Rafa's entire time at Liverpool is only equal in time to Wenger's transitional period.

Seems to me that the general arguement is that it is ok for Arsenal to go years without winning anything because it is just a transitional period, but if Liverpool under Rafa go a year less without winning it is a major problem.

Rafa came in when Chelsea were becoming a major power in the league and United still were the dominant team. Rafa has not been able to break that two team stranglehold so he must be a poor manager with a "terrible" transfer record, but funnily enough Wenger has had the excuse of rebuilding for that five year period so he does not get questioned.

Liverpool from 2004 to now have improved an awful lot from how they were then, still nowhere near what many of us would have hoped for, but improvement nonetheless. Have Arsenal improved on what they were in 2004 to now? Silverware and league finishing positions suggest they have done the opposite.

Liverpool's return in terms of silverware and league challenges since Rafa took over has been mediocre for a club with it's aspirations. But a smokescreen call transitional period does not mask the fact that Arsenal during that period have been slightly more mediocre if anything, and a big step down on the previous seven years under Wenger.

leninbenjamin

Kess73 wrote: »

Seems to me that the general arguement is that it is ok for Arsenal to go years without winning anything because it is just a transitional period, but if Liverpool under Rafa go a year less without winning it is a major problem.

The big difference is Wenger has proven himself capable of winning the league with Arsenal in the past. Rafa hasn't (with Liverpool). You'll allow that does make a difference in the eyes of any fan.

my original reason for comparing them though was simply to see how the two manager's react to a barren spell. Wenger's reaction so far has been slow, deliberate and methodical, in the past i would have said overly so. However we've seen glimpses that it is beginning to pay off in the past two seasons or so, particularly this season as they (so far at least) seem to have overcome their dreadful away record to lower half teams.

on the other hand, Benitez's Liverpool seem to have stagnated somewhat. The players are largely playing the same way they have for the past 5 years with little changes, shield the defence and get the ball to Gerrard. They struggle against weaker opposition primarily because they run out of ideas and we see them taking the same direct route week in week out really.

Even United in their barren period were slowly transforming their play. Where once Fergy would strictly adhere to the 4-4-2, he slowly moved to more fluid overloaded attack formations and we start to see a lot more interplay between the front men than in previous generations.

So in short, i just don't see any signs of real progress under Benitez. I don't see any ideas that will lift Liverpool out of the also ran category and I don't see him using his resources efficiently enough to compensate for this.

Now I'm sorry for having derailed this thread so much with the comparison's with Arsenal, you're right it's probably unfair to make such comparisons. But I would ask Benitez's supporters, how do you see Rafa turning this team into potential league winners?

mink_man

rafa can do no more....OUT!

The Muppet

Kess73 wrote: »

Funny how last week when I was comparing Rafa and Wenger I had Utd fans saying it was not a valid comparison and should not be done. But this week when it suits their own arguements a Rafa/Wenger comparison is totally valid.

It's not funny at all, It's not a valid comparison for the reasons I and other users have highlighted, yet there appears to be an insistance from some users that there is a valid favourable comparison to be made, hence the disusssion that is taking place.

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

It's not funny at all, It's not a valid comparison for the reasons I and other users have highlighted, yet there appears to be an insistance from some users that there is a valid favourable comparison to be made, hence the disusssion that is taking place.

The discussion is being held at a time that Arsenal have had a great start to the season and Liverpool, terrible. I think that is tainting it for some. Others, if Pool where top of the League it wouldn't matter.

Liverpools points tally has been on an upward curve generally since Rafa took over. We'll know more at the end of the season, though I can't see Rafa coming near 86 points. It could see Wengers re emergence or they could end up fighting it out for 3rd and 4th.

Mr Alan

leninbenjamin wrote: »

The big difference is Wenger has proven himself capable of winning the league with Arsenal in the past. Rafa hasn't (with Liverpool). You'll allow that does make a difference in the eyes of any fan.

my original reason for comparing them though was simply to see how the two manager's react to a barren spell. Wenger's reaction so far has been slow, deliberate and methodical, in the past i would have said overly so. However we've seen glimpses that it is beginning to pay off in the past two seasons or so, particularly this season as they (so far at least) seem to have overcome their dreadful away record to lower half teams.

on the other hand, Benitez's Liverpool seem to have stagnated somewhat. The players are largely playing the same way they have for the past 5 years with little changes, shield the defence and get the ball to Gerrard. They struggle against weaker opposition primarily because they run out of ideas and we see them taking the same direct route week in week out really.

Even United in their barren period were slowly transforming their play. Where once Fergy would strictly adhere to the 4-4-2, he slowly moved to more fluid overloaded attack formations and we start to see a lot more interplay between the front men than in previous generations.

So in short, i just don't see any signs of real progress under Benitez. I don't see any ideas that will lift Liverpool out of the also ran category and I don't see him using his resources efficiently enough to compensate for this.

Now I'm sorry for having derailed this thread so much with the comparison's with Arsenal, you're right it's probably unfair to make such comparisons. But I would ask Benitez's supporters, how do you see Rafa turning this team into potential league winners?

i'm sorry, but that post is absolute bollox, up until this run of games, Liverpool were undoubtadly on the up. imroving every year.

Wenger reacted to poor runs well, but Rafa hasnt?! has this run arsenal are on blinded people? you nearly missed out on the top 4 twice in the last 3 years....a dodgy lasagne & Villa absolutely falling apart spectacularly are the only reason you got the CL (something i have no doubt Rafa will get this year), our run has been tiny in the grand scheme of things & i expect us to comfortably finish in the top 4.

one thing that is startling about this run we're on is it shows the people who are fickle as ****, its one really bad run & all of a sudden Rafa hasnt been improving the team & all we can do is give it to Gerrard & hope for the best (i really thought that myth was gone after last season, but apparently not).

---

taken from another site;

In order to try and dispell a few media fuelled myths that sections of our fanbase seem to have swollowed; here’s the full list of players he’s signed since he’s been at the club (please read the summary below):

2004/05

£2m – Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m – Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m – Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m – Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free – Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m – Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m – Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

Total bought: £27.5m

Free – Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m – Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m – Michael Owen: Wouldn’t sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He’s done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free – Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: £11m

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

2005/06

£240,000 – Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free – Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m – Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa’s best signings.
£5.6m – Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m – Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown – Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 – Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn’t progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m – Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange – Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange – Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m – Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 – David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free – Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: £26.73

Free – Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m – El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free – Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m – Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier’s buys.
£2m – Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn’t work out.
£6.5m – Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He’s done nothing since.
Exchange – John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange – Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m
2006/07

£6m – Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m – Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free – Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m – Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m – Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 – Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 – Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan – Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed – Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan – Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: £27.15m

£200,000 – Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed – Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m – Fernando Morientes: Didn’t work out. Cut his losses.
Free – Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 – Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m – Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 – Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m – Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 – Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m – Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free – Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier’s flops continues.

Total sold: £10.15m

2006/07 net spend: £17m

2007/08

£5m – Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed – Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 – Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m – Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m – Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free – Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m – Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m – Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he’d turn out. Still got potential but he can’t be arsed.
Undisclosed – Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m – Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m – Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m – Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: £70.7m

£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold
Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free – Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.
£6m – Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal
£3.5m – Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didn’t work out.
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: £36.7m

2007/08 net spend: £34m

2008/09

Free – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m – Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m – Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out. Undoubtadly a good squad player for the money paid.

Total bought: £39m

£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock when bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.
Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for fee believed to be worth up to £1.5m.

Total sold: £36.5m

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m

2009/10

£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m – Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: £36.76m

£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.
Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: £36.75m

2009/10 net spend: £10,000

Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000

So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts

Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.

We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can’t afford to pay players £70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.

Rafa Benitez’ record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn’t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.

Where has this myth come from that he’s wasted money on ****e players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn’t many.

The ones that haven’t worked out he’s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.

The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that £83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He’d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!

He’s worked absolute wonders with the money he’s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he’s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That £83m he’s spent he’s earned the right to spend.

And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren’t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn’t take into account their massive wage bill.

When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.

Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.

Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you’ve been listening to Martin Tyler’s Monkey and the hairy-handed halfwit for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.

Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.

We’re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We’ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.

I’m not even going to mention the environment he’s working in under them two clowns.

You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm sorry,...................................

You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….

Ah jeez Al , looks like you've had a relapse and you were doing so well.;)


So ye got £16 million for keane?

Mr Alan

no, 19m.

like it says in the list?!

redout

Mr Alan wrote: »

no, 19m.

like it says in the list?!

Out of curiosity how much did Keane actually cost considering he was sent back.

Mr Alan

probably around 3m.

(fee for a 6mth loan ain't bad tbh! )

redzerdrog

very good post mr. alan

no doubt muppets will try pick it apart to try and find a hundred pound out of place

Mr Alan

i stole it from another site

Prufrock

More stats on Rafas transfers. Fantastic. Only one stat matters and its:

Team P PTS
1 Chelsea 12 30
2 Arsenal 11 25
3 Man Utd 12 25
4 Tottenham 12 22
5 Aston Villa 12 21
6 Man City 11 20
7 Liverpool 12 19
8 Sunderland12 17

Now I think Rafa will turn it around and get a good run of results at Christmas to retain a top 4 spot but this after 12 games is not good enough.

I really think that their next game against City will tell the story. Massive game considering that Sunderland are only 2 points(they shouldn't beat Aresnal but you never know...) behind and City have a game in hand. Time for Liverpool to prove they are a top 4 team by beating the pretenders to the crown. Can't wait.

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm sorry, but that post is absolute bollox

fair enough (i think a lot of those players who 'did' a job were poor investments, especially when you consider some of those on free's would have been on higher than usual wages, but you obviously disagree). It's well and good trying to find flaws in my own argument but you've failed to address my main concern: the lack of creativity in the side.

On the pitch Liverpool frequently run out of ideas against weaker opposition. It's been the same thing to afflict them since Rafa came into the club and it's preventing them achieving their full potential. That's how I see it. So what's he doing that makes you, as a Liverpool and Rafa supporter think they are going to win the league under his stewardship?

redzerdrog

Mr Alan wrote: »

i stole it from another site

only seen that part now quick just the delete that line and take all the credit yourself;)

Mr Alan

the fact that when he spends decent money, he gets it right.

the fact that our team has improved every year (this run being the first major blip, although i still expect our points total at the end of the season to be decent) would be two of the main ones.

But i wanna point this out, if investment has stopped under our current custodians (which it has the last 2 seasons), i don't expect us to win the league under anytime soon....but not because of Rafa, because in order to win the league, you MUST spend & be able to afford top wages.

lack of creativity in the side? the same side who scored more goals than anyone in the league last year? i genuinely don't think its an issue tbh. Yossi, Kuyt, Gerrard & Torres will all get over 10 a season imo.

The biggest issue this year imo & the reason we're struggling, has been our defence, due to poor form for some players,injuries,the loss of Hypia & beachballs

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

the fact that when he spends decent money, he gets it right.

the fact that our team has improved every year (this run being the first major blip, although i still expect our points total at the end of the season to be decent) would be two of the main ones.

But i wanna point this out, if investment has stopped under our current custodians (which it has the last 2 seasons), i don't expect us to win the league under anytime soon....but not because of Rafa, because in order to win the league, you MUST spend & be able to afford top wages.

lack of creativity in the side? the same side who scored more goals than anyone in the league last year? i genuinely don't think its an issue tbh. Yossi, Kuyt, Gerrard & Torres will all get over 10 a season imo.

The biggest issue this year imo & the reason we're struggling, has been our defence, due to poor form for some players,injuries,the loss of Hypia & beachballs

Everytime I read this as a catch-all defense of Rafa in the league I shudder. Basically Rafa bought crap players becasue he had to or Rafa bought players he thought were good for the money but turned out not to be.

Its a win-win situation, if he gets a gem at 4m then he is Wenger-like but if the players turns out like Tossena that then its becasue of the investment. I would prefer our manager to be able to buy well rather than simply outspending our rivals to be perfectly honest.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

the fact that when he spends decent money, he gets it right.

ROFL
Babel, Keane & Kuyt (failed as a striker)

Mr Alan

our manager has proven beyond any doubt that he can buy well.

if you want a manager who makes no mistakes, well...that doesnt exist.

think i remember reading Ferguson or some other top manager saying with transfers, if 1 in 3 work out ok, you're doing well.

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

ROFL
Babel, Keane & Kuyt (failed as a striker)

Babel & Keane didnt work out (Babel still may).

Kuyt has been an absolutely brilliant buy.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

our manager has proven beyond any doubt that he can buy well.

if you want a manager who makes no mistakes, well...that doesnt exist.

think i remember reading Ferguson or some other top manager saying with transfers, if 1 in 3 work out ok, you're doing well.

nobody said they don't but when you insist on stating crap exepct to get challenged on it.

the fact that when he spends decent money, he gets it right.

Mr Alan

did i say he gets it right every single time?

players he has bought around 10m & over;

Keane-poor
Babel-poor
Mascherano-great
Alonso-great
Kuyt-great
Johnson-great
Torres-great
Aquilani-haven't seen enough

thats an ooutstanding record on big money buys tbh.

redout

Mr Alan wrote: »

did i say he gets it right every single time?

players he has bought around 10m & over;

Keane-poor
Babel-poor
Mascherano-great
Alonso-great
Kuyt-great
Johnson-great
Torres-great
Aquilani-haven't seen enough

thats an ooutstanding record on big money buys tbh.

Far to early to tell. He has only played about a dozen games!

Mr Alan

he has been sensational. i'll put my neck on the line for that one, i'd bet my house that by the seasons end it'll be viewed as a great buy.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

he has been sensational. i'll put my neck on the line for that one, i'd bet my house that by the seasons end it'll be viewed as a great buy.

Wooh, he was good against the few teams you hammered, since then he has either been injured or average.

mayordenis

Boggles wrote: »

Wooh, he was good against the few teams you hammered, since then he has either been injured or average.

I dunno about that, he was pretty excellent on monday night, 2-2 if I remember correctly.

Boggles

mayordenis wrote: »

I dunno about that, he was pretty excellent on monday night, 2-2 if I remember correctly.

Thought he was pretty poor to be honest, Ridgewell for me was one of Birminghams best players, particulary when you take into account McFadden picked up a knock in the first half.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Wooh, he was good against the few teams you hammered, since then he has either been injured or average.

ah here.

he was brilliant for the first 5/6 games of the season, in a new team, tailed off to merely decent in the next few, got injured, did very well against united, then was excellent last night.

decent, coupled with 7/8 outstanding, performances is one hell of a start to a career at a club, by anyone's standards.

CHD

Boggles wrote: »

Thought he was pretty poor to be honest, Ridgewell for me was one of Birminghams best players, particulary when you take into account McFadden picked up a knock in the first half.

You thought Johnson was pretty poor? Was it because mayordenis said he was excellent or just becuse he is a Liverpool player?

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Thought he was pretty poor to be honest, Ridgewell for me was one of Birminghams best players, particulary when you take into account McFadden picked up a knock in the first half.

apart from the fact Johnson outdid him on a few occasions.

i seem to remember pretty much all of our attacks came down that side. and we had more than a few close calls.

more admirable given the fact kuyt was sh*te.

Boggles

CHD wrote: »

You thought Johnson was pretty poor? Was it because mayordenis said he was excellent or just becuse he is a Liverpool player?

No because I watched the match and formed my own opinion.

Did you manage to catch the match or you just having a snipe at me?

SlickRic

CHD wrote: »

You thought Johnson was pretty poor? Was it because mayordenis said he was excellent or just becuse he is a Liverpool player?

a bit of both i'd guess. :pac:

CHD

Boggles wrote: »

No because I watched the match and formed my own opinion.

Did you manage to catch the match or you just having a snipe at me?

Watched the whole game and he was excellent.

Boggles

CHD wrote: »

Watched the whole game and he was excellent.

Well why not just say that then?

CHD

Boggles wrote: »

Well why not just say that then?

Why not just admit he was excellent instead of saying he was poor when you know he wasn't.

Boggles

CHD wrote: »

Why not just admit he was excellent instead of saying he was poor when you know he wasn't.

Because I thought he was POOR.

So much so I already gave Ridgewell man of the match.

You done?

mayordenis

Boggles wrote: »

Because I thought he was POOR.

So much so I already gave Ridgewell man of the match.

You done?

Ridgewell wasn't the best player on the pitch by a long shot Boggles.
Johnson ran at them all game, sorry not at them through them. He was really really good pretty much all game.

CHD

Boggles wrote: »

Because I thought he was POOR.

So much so I already gave Ridgewell man of the match.

You done?

Nope. How was he poor?

Boggles

CHD wrote: »

Nope. How was he poor?

Well 1 stand out moment would be when he Failed to defend the header from the free kick that led to the goal.

mayordenis

Boggles wrote: »

Well 1 stand out moment would be when he Failed to defend the header from the free kick that led to the goal.

He along with 10 others, anything else or just that one moment made his overall game poor?

eZe^

Johnson has stolen Dani Alves' mojo. He's been class so far this season while Alves has been muck. Johnson will be seen as the best RB in England by the end of this season, and probably in the top 3 world RBs too.

Boggles

mayordenis wrote: »

He along with 10 others, anything else or just that one moment made his overall game poor?

What do you mean 10 others?, it was him the contested the ball that ultimately led to the goal.