Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

monkey9

Haven't read any of the threads since the weekend, but i can't believe people are criticizing Johnson's performance on Monday. I thought he was one of the best players on the pitch, my MOTM!

Mr Alan

tbf, its only Boggles & NtlBell

The Muppet

A quick look at the goals conceded column tells the story of Liverpools defence this season.Johnson was purchased as a defender thats his primary role in the team at the moment . On current form he is not one of the best defenders in the Premiership, he may make a good right sided midfielder if he were moved to that position.

Kuty is another one that is over rated by some contributors here. he is having a very poor season so far.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

I have already listed why I thought he was poor the other night.

If we was so good what exactly in your opinion did he do?

i'm not listing them out again.

plus loads of us have already given you the reasons, yet you hold onto 2 incidents of 'dodgy' defending...

one of which was n'gog's fault which Johnson tried to cover for.

and the other (Bowyer) he recovered pretty adequately.

flahavaj

The Muppet wrote: »

A quick look at the goals conceded column tells the story of Liverpools defence this season.Johnson was purchased as a defender thats his primary role in the team at the moment . On current form he is not one of the best defenders in the Premiership, he may make a good right sided midfielder if he were moved to that position.

Kuty is another one that is over rated by some contributors here. he is having a very poor season so far.

I was only thinking this about Kuyt the otehr day. Whats his goal/assist record this season?

Found em:

Played 17, Scored 4, Assists 2.

Better than I thought actually.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

A quick look at the goals conceded column tells the story of Liverpools defence this season.Johnson was purchased as a defender thats his primary role in the team at the moment . he is not one of the best defenders in the Premiership, he may make a good right sided midfielder if he were moved to that position.

i would hold Carra more responsible. i would hold niggly injuries and the loss of form of Agger and Skrtel, and the throwing in the deep end of Insua, a lot more of a problem than Johnson.

Johnson has been solid.

The Muppet wrote: »

Kuty is another one that is over rated by some contributors here. he is having a very poor season so far.

He was brilliant last season, and very good in the previous.

i don't think many would argue with you about this season. but then again, the vast majority of our senior players are under performing too.

Pighead

Thought he was good going forward but he still doesn't inspire confidence at the back. He made one absolutely horrible crossfield ball midway through the second half gifting possession back to Birmingham when under absolutely no pressure. Total brainfart moment for Johnson, that has a tendency to happen at least once a match.

mayordenis

flahavaj wrote: »

I was only thinking this about Kuyt the otehr day. Whats his goal/assist record this season?

4 and 4 in all competitions I think

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

4 and 4 in all competitions I think

4 and 2.

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

i would hold Carra more responsible. i would hold niggly injuries and the loss of form of Agger and Skrtel, and the throwing in the deep end of Insua, a lot more of a problem than Johnson.

Cara wasn't play the other night, you can't blame him for that. Cara is only 31 he has plenty of years left in him, he hasn't become a bad defender over the summer, The center backs are being left too exposed by johnsons surges forward.

SlickRic wrote: »

Johnson has been solid.

When he's in position he has been ok.

SlickRic wrote: »

He was brilliant last season, and very good in the previous.

i don't think many would argue with you about this season. but then again, the vast majority of our senior players are under performing too.

He reminds me a little of of Tevez TBH, All action but little effect, He has had his moments but they are too few and far between, he's too inconsistant imo.

SlickRic

you're all holding Johnson accountable for things that Evra has been doing for last 2 years - surging forward and leaving the full back position exposed at times when you unfortunately lose the ball. not only him but the likes of Alves and Maicon - the great modern right backs.

if exposed, it's the responsibilty, also, of the DM or the CB to cover. they will know that.

masch and our CBs have been below their previous high standards.

this is getting a bit ridiculous now.

he's now not allowed to make one mistake or he's deemed poor in a whole match?

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

you're all holding Johnson accountable for things that Evra has been doing for last 2 years - surging forward and leaving the full back position exposed at times when you unfortunately lose the ball. not only him but the likes of Alves and Maicon - the great modern right backs.

if exposed, it's the responsibilty, also, of the DM or the CB to cover. they will know that.

masch and our CBs have been below their previous high standards.

this is getting a bit ridiculous now.

he's now not allowed to make one mistake or he's deemed poor in a whole match?

It's pretty obvious that Liverpool are not compensating for him when he moves forward .

He has been good going forward , for me that's not the primary function of a defender.

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

Cara wasn't play the other night, you can't blame him for that. Cara is only 31 he has plenty of years left in him, he hasn't become a bad defender over the summer, The center backs are being left too exposed by johnsons surges forward.

I agree on the Carra comments, he's on a serious run of poor form, but I think he has it in him to pull himself back together and put in another year or two of good performances.

On the Johnson leaving them exposed comment though, I disagree again. Most of our bad goals conceded this season have come from set piece situations where everyone is back there and noone can just get a fukin head on the ball - and its right here that we've fallen apart this season.

Against Brum for example, you were picking out Johnson not stopping the header coming in, but TWO brum players got their heads on the ball after it came into the box. TWO! thats unforgivable for the CB's not to be all over that.

To be fair i dont think Agger has done an awful lot wrong, but he's also not played a whole lot.

Skrtel and Carra on the other hand have been terrible in the air this year. Consistently this season balls come in that any CB worth his salt should be getting something on, and these two lads were knocking them away with ease last season.

This year for some reason they seem almost shy or scared when they go in for balls in the air. I'm wondering if Skrtel is still worried about his jaw after Carra clocked him at the start of the season, he doesn't look as fearless with his head as he used to.

I see Ngog has the same amount of goals as Berbatov this season.

4 in 15 Berbatov
4 in 7 for Ngog.

Great chance for him the next few weeks with Torres injured. Aside from the diving incident he has impressed me alot this season and is obviously learning alot from the master.

Chucky the tree

The Muppet wrote: »

A quick look at the goals conceded column tells the story of Liverpools defence this season.Johnson was purchased as a defender thats his primary role in the team at the moment . On current form he is not one of the best defenders in the Premiership, he may make a good right sided midfielder if he were moved to that position.

Kuty is another one that is over rated by some contributors here. he is having a very poor season so far.

He's one of the right sided defenders is the league, no questions. Using a whole teams stats is crazy. So if all the goals game from the left side it doesn't matter, GJ would still be a fault? You should have a look at all the goals we have conceded then pick out who was a fault to know if GJ has been doing well, stats are the be all and end all, actually watching games can be quite useful you know.

Mr Alan

picking out Johnson as a reason we're struggling this season is even more idiotic than picking out Lucas.

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

A quick look at the goals conceded column tells the story of Liverpools defence this season.Johnson was purchased as a defender thats his primary role in the team at the moment . On current form he is not one of the best defenders in the Premiership, he may make a good right sided midfielder if he were moved to that position.

Kuty is another one that is over rated by some contributors here. he is having a very poor season so far.

Maybe in time he might develop into a winger but Rafa has had little option but to play him at full back because of injuries. You can't look at him in isolation to the whole back 4 either. In games like against United when he has had to concentrate on defending, he has done it well.


Agreed on Kuyt, needs a rest.

The Muppet wrote: »

Cara wasn't play the other night, you can't blame him for that. Cara is only 31 he has plenty of years left in him, he hasn't become a bad defender over the summer, The center backs are being left too exposed by johnsons surges forward.



When he's in position he has been ok.



He reminds me a little of of Tevez TBH, All action but little effect, He has had his moments but they are too few and far between, he's too inconsistant imo.

SlickRic wrote: »

you're all holding Johnson accountable for things that Evra has been doing for last 2 years - surging forward and leaving the full back position exposed at times when you unfortunately lose the ball. not only him but the likes of Alves and Maicon - the great modern right backs.

if exposed, it's the responsibilty, also, of the DM or the CB to cover. they will know that.

masch and our CBs have been below their previous high standards.

this is getting a bit ridiculous now.

he's now not allowed to make one mistake or he's deemed poor in a whole match?

Exactly, good response.

Really, you can't win. Teams shouldn't have attacking full backs by this logic.

The Muppet

Lads I,m no picking out Johnson as the reason ye are playing badly.I think you'll all agree your defence has been far from impressive Johnson as part of that defence must shoulder some of the blame. It's not just in defence ye are having problem , midfield and up front hasn't been too hot in some game either. Kuyt, lucas, kyriakos, babel, none of thos players would get into any of the other top 4 squads.

Chucky the tree

The Muppet wrote: »

Lads I,m no picking out Johnson as the reason ye are playing badly.I think you'll all agree your defence has been far from impressive Johnson as part of that defence must shoulder some of the blame. It's not just in defence ye are having problem , midfield and up front hasn't been too hot in some game either. Kuyt, lucas, kyriakos, babel, none of thos players would get into any of the other top 4 squads.

Kuyt would start ahead of Valencia on the right for United. Based on stats he's done better then him. Lucas I think is a pretty solid second choice defensive midfielder. I'd have him ahead of anderson to be honest, although I will admit I'm not 100% sure what United midfield would be if carrick was out. Kyriakos is hardly a 4th choice centre back who was bought last minute and on a non-existant budget when it Rafa was told he wouldn't have the money to buy turner. Babel I agree with.

Mr Alan

Kuyt was the best RW in the league last year after Ronaldo?! he is better than any wide player Utd have, of course he's good enough for any top 4 team :rolleyes: 14 goals & 10 assists in the PL & CL last season.

Lucas/Anderson, no real difference between them other than the price tag & that when Lucas has been relied upon in big occassions, he has excelled.

Babel/Nani, both equally disappointed since their moves to England.

Honestly there is some serious ****e spoken here at times.

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

Lads I,m no picking out Johnson as the reason ye are playing badly.I think you'll all agree your defence has been far from impressive Johnson as part of that defence must shoulder some of the blame. It's not just in defence ye are having problem , midfield and up front hasn't been too hot in some game either. Kuyt, lucas, kyriakos, babel, none of thos players would get into any of the other top 4 squads.

Squads? Kuyt would comfortably make it into all of them. Even Babel is in or abouts on a par with Nani (no great achievement, but every squad has its dross). Lucas would also probably make Uniteds squad (considering Gibson does), and would definately make Arsenals (might actually make a good foil for Fabregas).

But I assume your point is that Pool's squad is worse then the others, which is true. Probably much of a muchness with Arsenals, but they have incredible attacking prowess in both the first team and on the bench which masks some of the potential defensive frailties in their cover.

I'm not really sure that Johnson does need to carry some of the blame. Defensively so far this season i think he's done better then Insua, Skrtel, Carra and Kyrgiakos.

Mr Alan

Johnson has been our best defender this season. facht (as our esteemed manager would say).

Mental Mickey

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Squads? Kuyt would comfortably make it into all of them. Even Babel is in or abouts on a par with Nani (no great achievement, but every squad has its dross). Lucas would also probably make Uniteds squad (considering Gibson does), and would definately make Arsenals (might actually make a good foil for Fabregas).

But I assume your point is that Pool's squad is worse then the others, which is true. Probably much of a muchness with Arsenals, but they have incredible attacking prowess in both the first team and on the bench which masks some of the potential defensive frailties in their cover.

I'm not really sure that Johnson does need to carry some of the blame. Defensively so far this season i think he's done better then Insua, Skrtel, Carra and Kyrgiakos.

LUcas would make it into Arsenal's squad??? That has to be the funniest quote of the year!!!! The guy is dross.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kuyt was the best RW in the league last year after Ronaldo?! he is better than any wide player Utd have, ......................


Honestly there is some serious ****e spoken here at times.

At least you got one thing right in your post Al.

Mr Alan

Mental Mickey wrote: »

LUcas would make it into Arsenal's squad??? That has to be the funniest quote of the year!!!! The guy is dross.

are you joking?

he was a vital member of the squad that finished 14 points ahead of Arsenal last year & has been one of the few rays of light during this bad patch we're going through.

honestly, ffs.

Mental Mickey

The Muppet wrote: »

At least you got one thing right in your post Al.

lol

Chucky the tree

Mental Mickey wrote: »

LUcas would make it into Arsenal's squad??? That has to be the funniest quote of the year!!!! The guy is dross.

First name says it all tbh. Lucas is far from dross and has been very impressive this season.

~Rebel~

Mental Mickey wrote: »

LUcas would make it into Arsenal's squad??? That has to be the funniest quote of the year!!!! The guy is dross.

yes, he absolutely would. The main criticism of Lucas is his lack of creativity. Everyone with any sense can see he's a solid player who wins a lot of ball and finds a man, even if it is only a sideways pass. That, is the type of potential gap which exists in arsenals squad. He doesn't need to be creative himself with the likes of Fabregas, Arshavin, Nasri, Van Persie, Rosicky etc

Pighead

Mr Alan wrote: »

Johnson has been our best defender this season. facht (as our esteemed manager would say).

That's kind of damning him with faint praise though isn't it? It's like me saying "Bernie Nolan is the best looking Nolan sister, facht"

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

At least you got one thing right in your post Al.

honestly.....

Utds wide players as i see it are Valencia, Nani, Obertan, Park.....

Ronaldo papered over the cracks in that dept. for Utd for quite some time.

Kuyt is comfortably better than the players i've listed above, as demonstrated by his performances & statistics for last season. ps: so is Benayoun.

Mr Alan

Pighead wrote: »

That's kind of damning him with false praise though isn't it? It's like me saying "Bernie Nolan is the best looking Nolan sister, facht"

do you not get a little tired attempting to be funny all the time?

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

honestly.....

Utds wide players as i see it are Valencia, Nani, Obertan, Park.....

Ronaldo papered over the cracks in that dept. for Utd for quite some time.

Kuyt is comfortably better than the players i've listed above, as demonstrated by his performances & statistics for last season. ps: so is Benayoun.

Giggsy , suppose he's a center midfielder now.

Valencia is setteling in nicely, there is no way I would have Kuyt ahead of him. Kuyt is a poor masn Tevez, United could have had the real thing and chose not to.

SlickRic

Mental Mickey wrote: »

The guy is dross.

one final time, i want someone to f*cking explain to me how Lucas is 'dross'.

because i'm bored with seeing these comments. it's just pure, unadulterated BS.

if nobody can put forward a good reason, i really think it should be a bannable offense to call him sh*t, dross, cr*p, not fit to wear the shirt.

it's our own fans too ffs.

nkay1985

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Kuyt would start ahead of Valencia on the right for United.

Nope, I would have to disagree there. Kuyt isn't a winger which is what United bought Valencia as: a pure old-fashioned winger. He uses his awesome pace to get space and whip balls in. And works incredibly hard defensively. Kuyt has definitely been good for Liverpool these last few seasons but I couldn't see him taking the starting berth for United if he was there.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Based on stats he's done better then him. Lucas I think is a pretty solid second choice defensive midfielder. I'd have him ahead of anderson to be honest.

There is no way I'd have Lucas over Anderson either. Lucas has undoubtedly improved this season but I think Anderson has done more and has more potential too.


But neither of those are that relevant to this discussion. Ok, maybe Kuyt hasn't been at his best but he's not been disastrous.

Actually, if the Liverpool fans had to pick out one or two players that they feel are most responsible for their current run, who would you pick?

~Rebel~

Pighead wrote: »

That's kind of damning him with faint praise though isn't it? It's like me saying "Bernie Nolan is the best looking Nolan sister, facht"

Aye, best of a bad lot indeed. But to be fair, Johnson has been quality this year. Everyone accepts he has the scope for defensive errors, but so far in a liverpool shirt he has yet to show this side of his game, if anything he's covered a lot of other peoples errors with his pace to get across and make important tackles. He's made a few small errors, but nothing compared to what some people expected to see from him. I'd honestly have him over any RB in the league at the moment.

Chucky the tree

The Muppet wrote: »

Giggsy , suppose he's a center midfielder now.

Valencia is settleing in nicely, there is no way I would have Kuyt ahead of him. Kuyt is a poor masn Tevez, United could have had the real thing and chose not to.

Stats say Kuyt is better. Also, you Tevez chose not to stay at United.

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

do you not get a little tired attempting to be funny all the time?

He makes a good point. No great victory at all being the best defender in a defence thats been worse than Stoke's , Birmingham's and Fulham's and no better than that of his former club Portsmouth.

Mental Mickey

SlickRic wrote: »

one final time, i want someone to f*cking explain to me how Lucas is 'dross'.

because i'm bored with seeing these comments. it's just pure, unadulterated BS.

if nobody can put forward a good reason, i really think it should be a bannable offense to call him sh*t, dross, cr*p, not fit to wear the shirt.

it's our own fans too ffs.

So? If we think he's dross, aren't we entitled to that opinion?? I've seen him plenty of times to form the opinion that I think he's not good enough to wear the shirt.

Pighead

Mr Alan wrote: »

do you not get a little tired attempting to be funny all the time?

Not trying to be funny Al! It was a valid and may I say excellently made point. Probably the best Glen Johnson related post I've ever made actually.

blackbetty69

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Aye, best of a bad lot indeed. But to be fair, Johnson has been quality this year. Everyone accepts he has the scope for defensive errors, but so far in a liverpool shirt he has yet to show this side of his game, if anything he's covered a lot of other peoples errors with his pace to get across and make important tackles. He's made a few small errors, but nothing compared to what some people expected to see from him. I'd honestly have him over any RB in the league at the moment.

+1 he is quality, theres no denying it

~Rebel~

nkay1985 wrote: »

Actually, if the Liverpool fans had to pick out one or two players that they feel are most responsible for their current run, who would you pick?

Would have to go with CB. Particularly Skrtel, Carra and Kyrgiakos. I think all of them are much better then they've looked this year, and Carra and Skrtel's previous form backs this up. For some reason though, the center back pairing have never looked comfortable this season.

SlickRic

johnson is a top class right back, and defensively has been fine for us.

i can't believe it's being argued that he's been anything but top class since he joined.

ask capello ffs.

Mental Mickey

Pighead wrote: »

Not trying to be funny Al! It was a valid and may I say excellently made point. Probably the best Glen Johnson related post I've ever made actually.

Arrogance ftw.

Chucky the tree

nkay1985 wrote: »

Nope, I would have to disagree there. Kuyt isn't a winger which is what United bought Valencia as: a pure old-fashioned winger. He uses his awesome pace to get space and whip balls in. And works incredibly hard defensively. Kuyt has definitely been good for Liverpool these last few seasons but I couldn't see him taking the starting berth for United if he was there.



There is no way I'd have Lucas over Anderson either. Lucas has undoubtedly improved this season but I think Anderson has done more and has more potential too.


But neither of those are that relevant to this discussion. Ok, maybe Kuyt hasn't been at his best but he's not been disastrous.

Actually, if the Liverpool fans had to pick out one or two players that they feel are most responsible for their current run, who would you pick?

As I said, stats say Kuyt is better going forward then Anderson. Since the Muppet is such a fan of using stats and nothing else then I was just pointing out to him that in that case Kuyt is better then Valencia. Agree to disagree on Lucas, also the fact he cost about £10m less is a big bonus.

The Muppet

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Stats say Kuyt is better. Also, you Tevez chose not to stay at United.

Oh I didn't realise the stats said that, I must be wrong so.

United could have signed tevez last year if they had wanted him, they didn't.

nkay1985

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Stats say Kuyt is better. Also, you Tevez chose not to stay at United.

I think we all agree that stats are very rarely the best way of judging a player. I think Valencia's done very well so far and has the potential to improve further. You must also remember that Valencia is new to the United team, a team that is changing its style of play; Kuyt has been part of this Liverpool side for years and we all remember how his start at Anfield was.

I really like Kuyt as a player but I would not take him ahead of Valencia.

I'd like to have Benayoun as an option though. Even if he wouldn't be starting every game, he could give us something different.

flahavaj

Pighead wrote: »

Not trying to be funny Al! It was a valid and may I say excellently made point. Probably the best Glen Johnson related post I've ever made actually.

In fairness, Pighead is pretty damn funny more often than not. Such as teh above. I prefer when he talks about himself in the third person though.:(

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

Oh I didn't realise the stats said that, I must be wrong so.

United could have signed tevez last year if they had wanted him, they didn't.

I thought Tevez turned down the offer United made him? (dont want to derail, or snipe here, i just recall that being the case)

<edit> just did a quick google search;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/14/carlos-tevez-manchester-united-sir-alex-ferguson

Carlos Tevez has informed Sir Alex Ferguson that he has no plans to return to Manchester United despite the club's renewed efforts to persuade him to reject Manchester City's overtures.

Ferguson has interrupted his holiday in the south of France several times over the past two weeks to ring Tevez and appeal to him to think carefully about the consequences of leaving a club of United's standing, but the Argentinian has now told the manager that he planned to sever his ties with the Premier League champions.

That is unlikely to prevent Ferguson trying to persuade him from changing his mind before the striker officially becomes a free agent on 30 June, but United's management are realistic about the situation and increasingly fear that Tevez will soon confirm he is following Cristiano Ronaldo out of the club.

Mental Mickey

nkay1985 wrote: »

I think we all agree that stats are very rarely the best way of judging a player. I think Valencia's done very well so far and has the potential to improve further. You must also remember that Valencia is new to the United team, a team that is changing its style of play; Kuyt has been part of this Liverpool side for years and we all remember how his start at Anfield was.

I really like Kuyt as a player but I would not take him ahead of Valencia.

I'd like to have Benayoun as an option though. Even if he wouldn't be starting every game, he could give us something different.

Neither would I. IMO, Kuyt is a hard working, honest GRAFTER, and nothing more.

The Muppet

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I thought Tevez turned down the offer United made him? (dont want to derail, or snipe here, i just recall that being the case)

I said last year 2008, when United were supposed to make the loan deal permanent, they didn't , the rest is history.


Big up for pighead, funny without even trying.