Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

nkay1985

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Would have to go with CB. Particularly Skrtel, Carra and Kyrgiakos. I think all of them are much better then they've looked this year, and Carra and Skrtel's previous form backs this up. For some reason though, the center back pairing have never looked comfortable this season.

A good, honest answer and I think you're right. Carragher was always so solid for you but it's jusdt not happening for him at the moment. His fight and effort could always make up for it if his partner wasn't in great form but to have a central defensive partnership not working leaves you in big trouble.

I think this is why people are blaming Johnson too. If he was a more traditional right back (more defensive), then maybe he could stop some of the pressure the centre halves are coming under but that's not him. I think he's a super player and is basically the right sided version of Evra. The only thing is that Evra has that little bit more pace that means he can get back and cover quicker if he's out of position. But I don't see how any United fan can criticise Johnson and praise Evra.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

As I said, stats say Kuyt is better going forward then Anderson. Since the Muppet is such a fan of using stats and nothing else then I was just pointing out to him that in that case Kuyt is better then Valencia. Agree to disagree on Lucas, also the fact he cost about £10m less is a big bonus.

Well, using a method of argument you seem to not agree with isn't exactly the best of ideas. The £10m is a good point but I honestly think Anderson will be worth that extra £10m. At the moment though, he isn't £10m better (but still better IMO).

nkay1985

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Neither would I. IMO, Kuyt is a hard working, honest GRAFTER, and nothing more.

And you're a Liverpool fan, right?

Chucky the tree

The Muppet wrote: »

I said last year 2008, when United were supposed to make the loan deal permanent, they didn't , the rest is history.


Big up for pighead, funny without even trying.

hang on, so when United decided not to make the loan deal permenant in 2008 but offered him a new contract and were willing too pay £25m in 2009until Tevez refused, it means United didn't want him? Brilliant. :pac:

Mental Mickey

nkay1985 wrote: »

And you're a Liverpool fan, right?

Yeah. Doesnt mean that I have to like all the players....?

SlickRic

Mental Mickey wrote: »

So? If we think he's dross, aren't we entitled to that opinion?? I've seen him plenty of times to form the opinion that I think he's not good enough to wear the shirt.

that's not a reason.

just an opinion peddled because either,

1) you haven't watched us this season, or

2) he's an easy scapegoat.

Chucky the tree

nkay1985 wrote: »

Well, using a method of argument you seem to not agree with isn't exactly the best of ideas. The £10m is a good point but I honestly think Anderson will be worth that extra £10m. At the moment though, he isn't £10m better (but still better IMO).

The reason I did it was to show the muppet how poor of an argument it is. I am sure the Muppet doesn't think Kuyt is better then Valencia or even Ngog is better then Berbatov but based on the stats they are, therefore he might not be so eager to trot out Liverpools defensive stats as a way of proving that Johnson has been poor defensively for Liverpool this year.

Mental Mickey

SlickRic wrote: »

that's not a reason.

just an opinion peddled because either,

1) you haven't watched us this season, or

2) he's an easy scapegoat.

Wrong on both counts.

The Muppet

Chucky the tree wrote: »

hang on, so when United decided not to make the loan deal permenant in 2008 but offered him a new contract and were willing to pay £25m in 2009 but Tevez refused it means United didn't want him? Brilliant. :pac:

It's easy to appease fans and offer big money for a player when you know he's already agreed to go elsewhere.

Thats my last word on the subject in this thread.

nkay1985

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Yeah. Doesnt mean that I have to like all the players....?

Oh I know I was just making sure.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The reason I did it was to show the muppet how poor of an argument it is. I am sure the Muppet doesn't think Kuyt is better then Valencia or even Ngog is better then Berbatov but based on the stats they are, therefore he might not be so eager to trot out Liverpools defensive stats as a way of proving that Johnson has been poor defensively for Liverpool this year.

Ah right that's fair enough so. So, stats aside, would you rather have Kuyt or Valencia wide right? Actually, just thinking about Torres wreaking havoc with the balls Valencia would be delivering into him, I'm quite happy he isn't there!

mayordenis

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Wrong on both counts.

at most he's wong on 1 of the 3 things.

You definately didn't give a reason and he definately is an easy scapegoat.

You probably have watched games though, but not definately.

Mental Mickey

mayordenis wrote: »

at most he's wong on 1 of the 3 things.

You definately didn't give a reason and he definately is an easy scapegoat.

You probably have watched games though, but not definately.

WTF? Next you'll be asking to come to my house to make sure I watch the games!!!???:eek:

Chucky the tree

nkay1985 wrote: »

Ah right that's fair enough so. So, stats aside, would you rather have Kuyt or Valencia wide right? Actually, just thinking about Torres wreaking havoc with the balls Valencia would be delivering into him, I'm quite happy he isn't there!

Valencia, I don't really rate Kuyt as a top quality starter but I do think if we signed another 1st choice right winger and kept hold of Kuyt then that would drastically improve the strength of our squad and is the sort of move that needs to be done if Liverpool want to win league titles.

K-9

nkay1985 wrote: »

I think Valencia's done very well so far and has the potential to improve further. You must also remember that Valencia is new to the United team, a team that is changing its style of play;

I'd agree with that. Applying the same criteria, Johnson has done well.

m@cc@

Chucky the tree wrote: »

hang on, so when United decided not to make the loan deal permenant in 2008 but offered him a new contract and were willing too pay £25m in 2009until Tevez refused, it means United didn't want him? Brilliant. :pac:

Carlos Tevez wrote:

The whole world knows he [Ferguson] did not do that much to keep me last season

Everyone except you it seems.

starbelgrade

Tevez is a an overpriced bag of wind - all huff & no puff. Don't see what he has to do with Rafa & the Pool being done.

noodler

The jury is still out on Lucas.

He has come a long way in the last 18 months and it has to be said that the jibes of derision he recieved back then are (for the most part) no longer applicable.

Nonetheless, he, as a young player of course, still has a lot to prove.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kuyt was the best RW in the league last year after Ronaldo?! he is better than any wide player Utd have, of course he's good enough for any top 4 team :rolleyes: 14 goals & 10 assists in the PL & CL last season.

Kuyt was good last season Al, but he started 15 league games up front. No other right winger in the league did that so stop trying to make him out to be some sort of super winger, when he is not.

PHB

These debates always confuse me.

I've been on this forum for about 4 years and I've been making the same points the entire time. Every time you make one point, most fans will make a different point, and even though you show, and they have been shown, to be bull****, they keep getting made.

Ultimately my feelings on Rafa can be summed up in the 6 points below. These are feelings that plenty of people I know share. They've also all been shown to be true in many threads throughout this forum imo.

A. Rafa systematically prefers to buy a number of average players rather than one really good player. It is a choice by in large. He could have taken this option but choose to go a different route.

B. Rafa has not made great purchases in his average money buys. e.g. While Liverpool bought Skrtel for 6.5 and Dossena for 7, United bought Vidic for 7 and Evra for 5.5. Wenger blows everyone away here

C. Rafa has had similar money to spend as United, with a similar starting point in terms of players transferring over. This budget has not been used as effectively as it could be.

D. Rafa has made serious mistakes in his transfer dealings in the past 4 years. While his budgets have been restricted in some cases, like every other manager, he has still made plenty of mistakes. Keane was a mistake full stop. Even if, even if, he wanted Barry, after that, he then had to make another choice, and he made the wrong one.

His transfer dealings in the past 2 summers have not improved Liverpool at all.

E. Rafa doesn't favour width in his team, which results in Liverpool doing well against big teams in tight games but poorly against the weaker teams. Beyond that, bar a few runs, Liverpool don't impose their own system on games, but instead respond to the opponents.

F. Rafa rotates badly. It's not that he rotates at all, everyone has to do that. He does it at the wrong times and with the wrong people. How do you know this? He is prone to dropping points when he rotates, while other teams who win the leagues don't.

All in all, I don't really ever believe that Benetiz is going to win the EPL, which makes me happy. I'll be happy when he stays on if he does.

Boggles

I think we have come down to crunch time for the Spaniard this weekend.

The owners/chairman seemed prepared for the CL exit and have come out and backed Rafa publically.

Alot of Scouse fans in shock, alot appeasing themselves with the prospect of playing Thursday night football.

If a free scoring Spurs take 3 off Villa Saturday Evening, Liverpool will go into the Everton match 8 points off fourth.

If it is a Disaster against the old enemy, will the fans be able to take going out of the CL and losing to their closest rivals in one week.

More importantly if the fans do swing, will the Owners see the large gap developing and the prospect of no CL football next year and take action.

Villa v Spurs is just as important as Everton V Liverpool for the scouse.

A home and away win is a must.

I didn't even have to check who dug up this thread!

Fair play Boggles, always keeping a close eye on the Pool

We really should have a Liverpool forum all by itself with all these threads !!

Everton is a big match, Torres unlikely to be fit. Score draw.

iregk

My big question is when will the fans start to march and protest?

I fully expect to see all united, arsenal and chelsea fans protesting outside anfield soon to keep benitez at the club.

SlickRic

ffs.

it's november.

nothing is decided, with regards the league, in november.

as you well know boggles.

no decisions will be made until the end of the season.

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

ffs.

it's november.

nothing is decided, with regards the league, in november.

as you well know boggles.

no decisions will be made until the end of the season.

You think if results don't pick up the owners wouldn't look to replace him in December/January? If 4th spot is looking any more dodgy, I would expect the owners to act.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

ffs.

it's november.

nothing is decided, with regards the league, in november.

as you well know boggles.

no decisions will be made until the end of the season.

How do I well know that decisions won't be made until the end of the season???

The Muppet

The yanks have their reason now to swing their axe if that's what they want to do. If they do want to sack him it makes sense to do it before January. WE will soon find out of that public vote of confidence was genuine.

Handsome Bob

Boggles wrote: »

Is the discussion not relevant, topical?

Why don't you actually add to the debate instead of having a go at me, good lad.

Why don't you start the debate by giving your own actual opinion instead of asking a bunch of generic questions, then we'll talk.

Boggles

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Why don't you start the debate by giving your own actual opinion instead of asking a bunch of generic questions, then we'll talk.

Read my post again, take a deep breath and try add something to the forum.

If you want to ask me stupid questions do it via PM. Cheers.

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You think if results don't pick up the owners wouldn't look to replace him in December/January? If 4th spot is looking any more dodgy, I would expect the owners to act.

i would expect the fans to get more impatient in that scenario, more so than the owners, as ridiculous as that might sound on the face of it.

they really can't afford to sack him.

especially when there is no guarantee a new man would do better for the second half of a season.

unless it's Hiddink

but i would think big decisions, if they need to be made, will be made in the summer.

Mitch Connor

rarnes1 wrote: »

December is next week

Anyway, superthread?

and the end of December is 5 weeks away, 7 games away. Do you not think it is possible that if results don't pick up in that time, Rafa could be fired?

Pighead

SlickRic wrote: »

ffs.

it's november.

nothing is decided, with regards the league, in november.

as you well know boggles.

no decisions will be made until the end of the season.

How do you know this? There have been plenty of instances of managers been sacked in the first half of the season. Paul Ince didn't last too long last season if I recall correctly. Scolari barely made it past the new year. I think your confidence that "no decisions will be made until the end of the season" is a bit misplaced.

Handsome Bob

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The bits in bold - they'd be opinion?

What are ya? The moderator of this discussion? can you not just give your opinion rather than criticising the post content of other users?:p

Hardly opinions that are worth responding to no? "Oh yes Boggles, these are important games coming up alright *end of discussion*".

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

they really can't afford to sack him.

Was it not already proven that it won't cost that much to sack him?

As I'm sure Rafa would find employment elsewhere pretty quickly.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

How do I well know that decisions won't be made until the end of the season???

that's not what i said.

my point was that you know that nothing is decided in terms of the league in november; i.e. there's still plenty of time.

therefore it would be stupid to sack him in December/January.

everdead.ie

MementoMori wrote: »

Everton(a)
Blackburn (a)
Arsenal (h)
Wigan (h)
Portsmouth (a)
Wolves (h)
Villa (a)
Spurs (h)
Stoke (a)
Wolves (a)
Bolton (h)
Everton (h)
Arsenal (a)

Thanks to MementoMori for the list.
A lot of those games are very winable and I think if spurs/villa/man city are still ahead of liverpool after the next 13 games by a fair few points they might reconsider still far to early to tell how the rest of the season will go tho

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

and the end of December is 5 weeks away, 7 games away. Do you not think it is possible that if results don't pick up in that time, Rafa could be fired?

They can't afford to fire him. You are obviously not clued in on Liverpool's finances.

Mitch Connor

rarnes1 wrote: »

They can't afford to fire him. You are obviously not clued in on Liverpool's finances.

I have read the 20million sacking fee - I have since read it might be 'just' 5million to sack him. If 4th spot looks in real danger, losing 5million on Rafa is more appealing than 20million on the CL. Sure, they might still miss out on the CL spot, but sacking might be no more 'affordable' in the summer.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Was it not already proven that it won't cost that much to sack him?

As I'm sure Rafa would find employment elsewhere pretty quickly.

Proven by who? Got an inside scoop?

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I have read the 20million sacking fee - I have since read it might be 'just' 5million to sack him. If 4th spot looks in real danger, losing 5million on Rafa is more appealing than 20million on the CL. Sure, they might still miss out on the CL spot, but sacking might be no more 'affordable' in the summer.

Read where? NOTW perhaps? £5million?

Seriously, you are clutching at straws.

SlickRic

Pighead wrote: »

How do you know this? There have been plenty of instances of managers been sacked in the first half of the season. Paul Ince didn't last too long last season if I recall correctly. Scolari barely made it past the new year. I think your confidence that "no decisions will be made until the end of the season" is a bit misplaced.

change the 'will' to 'should' so.

This thread is a case in point of how full of sh1t foootball fans are whilst they claim to know everything about everything that goes on in their clubs. The amount of people here who claim to "know" the figure is quite sad really. Last night was a disaster for Rafa but I still think that he'll be given time.

mink_man

rafa has to go imo...missing out on the group stages next year would be disasterous...

invincibleirish

Anyway now Pool are out of the CL surely its a simple case of if they don't qualify for it next season then Rafa is out the door? He's been there 5yrs, he has done as much as he can possibly do given the circumstances, perhaps its time both parties went their seperate ways.

SlickRic

yes.

serious questions needs to be asked if the above happens.

i agree completely.

it would be wrong if there weren't.

~Rebel~

On topic, I want Rafa to get the season at least.

PHB

Rebel, what would be enough for you to consider keeping him on for another?

A 4th place finish?

Iago

I've deleted the off-topic posts from this thread. Please keep all posting on-topic moving forward.

This thread (like the spending thread) won't be merged into the main thread as it would become far too unwieldy to manage for posters. There have been good questions raised and debated in this thread, and enough from both sides to warrant it being left on it's own.

if anybody would like to discuss this decision please take it to PM with me rather than post on thread.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

Rebel, what would be enough for you to consider keeping him on for another?

A 4th place finish?

would be enough for me tbh.

this season has obviously gone awfully, but it would be the first evidence of the team & rafas performance getting worse during his reign, i'd then give him next season to prove that this was a once off & mount a title challenge.

if at the end of that it hadn't worked i'd say "ok, maybe its time to try something new" & fully expect us to fall out of the top 4 when we take a risk with an unproven manager willing to work with our owners on a paltry budget.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

would be enough for me tbh.

this season has obviously gone awfully, but it would be the first evidence of the team & rafas performance getting worse during his reign, i'd then give him next season to prove that this was a once off & mount a title challenge.

if at the end of that it hadn't worked i'd say "ok, maybe its time to try something new" & fully expect us to fall out of the top 4 when we take a risk with an unproven manager willing to work with our owners on a paltry budget.

Why get an unproven manager?

Plenty of managers out there proven at the top level.

NukaCola

The question is:

Can Rafa win Liverpool the title in the next 3/4 seasons?
If he cant are we happy to stick by him for more time?
If we dont who can be brought in to replace him?

Personally i'd be very surprised if Liverpool win the league in the next 3 seasons no matter whos in charge. Liverpool have a top 3/4 team who punched above their weight last season and sent expectations too high. Maybe Rafas not the man for the ''job'' but he is a good manager and has improved Liverpool fc in his time there, I'm pretty sure everyone can agree with that.....

PHB

Mr Alan, would you honestly think that if Rafa scraps into the top 4 this season, or gets in comfortably even, that with a summers transfer window with his restricted budget, he can advance Liverpool to the level of 3rd? Or 2nd? Or a title challenge?

Like, what's a realistic expectation.