Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Mr Alan

well look at last season PHB, most people agree that we were so close to winning the league, this was despite Rafas main transfer target not working out at all (Keane) & Dossena proving to be pretty useless. yet there was a huge improvement in the team.

so yes, i think Rafa could have a piss poor budget in the summer & get this same team challenging next year.

Iago

PHB wrote: »

Mr Alan, would you honestly think that if Rafa scraps into the top 4 this season, or gets in comfortably even, that with a summers transfer window with his restricted budget, he can advance Liverpool to the level of 3rd? Or 2nd? Or a title challenge?

What manager working with the same restrictions, and who would take the job on that basis, would have a better chance of doing so than Rafa in your view?

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

well look at last season PHB, most people agree that we were so close to winning the league, this was despite Rafas main transfer target not working out at all (Keane) & Dossena proving to be pretty useless. yet there was a huge improvement in the team.

so yes, i think Rafa could have a piss poor budget in the summer & get this same team challenging next year.

Chelsea and Arsenal both had very poor season by their standards last year, that has to be a factor in the 08/09 end of season table.

Liverpool only really played well in the run in when the pressure was off.

SlickRic

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

punched above their weight last season and sent expectations too high.

why must last season have been a season where we 'punched above our weight'? i'm sick of hearing that.

we could easily say this season is a blip during a steady stream of progress.

as i say, at the end of the season, everything should be assessed rationally. if we get 4th, i suspect he should be given more time.

anything less than 4th, and questions will have to be definitely be posed.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

Chelsea and Arsenal both had very poor season by their standards last year, that has to be a factor in the 08/09 end of season table.

close to irrelevant.

utd finished with 90 points, one of the highest ever to win it.

and we finished close behind.

there is no guarantee at all that a good season from either of them would have overtaken us.

also, if you're saying it would have, well then it can be argued that the only reason utd won it was because everyone else was poor.

Mitch Connor

The Muppet wrote: »

Chelsea and Arsenal both had very poor season by their standards last year, that has to be a factor in the 08/09 end of season table.

Liverpool only really played well in the run in when the pressure was off.

ah here - that simply isn't true. They played excellently from the Ream Madrid game onwards (and not bad before then before anyone starts) and the league was certainly still on at that stage.

NukaCola

SlickRic wrote: »

why must last season have been a season where we 'punched above our weight'? i'm sick of hearing that.

we could easily say this season is a blip during a steady stream of progress.

Maybe they are both blips.
I myself hope that last season wasn't but........

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Chelsea and Arsenal both had very poor season by their standards last year, that has to be a factor in the 08/09 end of season table.

points totals would disagree.

neiter points clubs points tally was particularly low in comparrison to what they'd acheived in the couple of seasons previous. Arsenals was down on 07/08, but an increase on 06/07. Chelsea was 2 lower than 07/08 & the same as 06/07.

The Muppet wrote: »

Liverpool only really played well in the run in when the pressure was off.

pressure was off?i love how history changed, i seem to remember every game being huge with us needing to win to stay in with a chance of winning the title. you call that "pressure off"? i really wouldn't.

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

close to irrelevant.

utd finished with 90 points, one of the highest ever to win it.

and we finished close behind.

there is no guarantee at all that a good season from either of them would have overtaken us.

also, if you're saying it would have, well then it can be argued that the only reason utd won it was because everyone else was poor.

So the poor results of two of the top 4 teams is irrelvant to the final league table? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

Boggles

I think what alot of Liverpool fans need to realise is the not finishing inside the top 4 is not an option and will set back the club several years.

Rafa blew his transfer budget on a right back and a central midfielder who looks like he won't make a start until December, the mantra that he signed him for 5 years is bollix, in 2 years time if he does get over his chronic injuries he might be looking for a club that actually has CL football.

He alone has to take the full blame for this, also signing the Greek centre back is an insult to a club with aspirtations of CL football.

Iago

I don’t mean this to be inflammatory but when it comes to winning the league I believe Liverpool are and will remain also-rans under the current structure and restrictions. If you can accept this premise as a concept then you can look at what’s under the hood.

With the way the EPL and Champions league are now set up, it really comes down to two positions. Finish 1st or finish 2nd-4th, finishing 4th adds the inconvenience of having to play a preliminary game before the champions league “proper” but it’s only inconvenient, not a disaster. As such, if Liverpool can finish in the top 4 then the season is relatively successful. Of course they want to win the league but given the scale of investment in the playing staff and the club as a whole over the last 5 years that is only ever going to be realistic in a season where everything goes their way, not just internally but also with regards to the clubs around them at the top of the league. It almost happened last year, a “perfect storm” if you will, as we know they finished 2nd because United were able to step up their game and got a bit of luck their way in the 2nd half of the season.

So, and again if you accept the premise above, if Liverpool finish in the top 4 and either get out of the Champions League group stages or get a run to at least the semi-final of the Europa League then the season can be considered successful based on what they can realistically hope to achieve in their current state. From that point of view I think people saying that Rafa is done and should leave aren’t really seeing the bigger picture. He is working with restricted funds, and some limited players, and can’t be expected to compete with the likes of Chelsea or United over the course of a season. Over any given 5/10 game stretch? Absolutely, but over a full season he just doesn’t have the resources he requires to topple either of those two teams. For the same reason I don’t think any manager who could be considered superior or even at the same level as Rafa would be inclined to take the Liverpool job. They have the bones of a very good first 11 with Reina, Johnson, Skrtel, Benayoun, Gerrard & Torres all top class and likely to be pushing for a place in any team in the league. They also have some decent players like Kuyt, insua, Aurelio, Babel etc who would probably stick out in any middle tier team and offer a back up to any of the other top 4 clubs but they lack the overall squad to consistently challenge over the course of a season.

So given that there is limited money, a stadium that needs to be updated, a limited squad (given the restrictions on wages and transfer fees) it is no surprise that they are not going to win the league this year. I thought they would have enough to get out of the group stages of the Champions League, but a run to at least the semi-final of the Europa League would also be a successful run for them. I think Rafa (if a bit mad at times) is on the right path at Liverpool and I think if he can get some backing, get the new stadium built, start expanding his squad and picking up some young wonderkids the way Chelsea, Arsenal and to a lesser extent United do, then Liverpool can start to challenge regularly.

Until all that happens though, top 4 and a reasonable run in Europe should be seen as a successful season and should be enough to allow him to continue what he’s started.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Rafa blew his transfer budget on a right back and a central midfielder who looks like he won't make a start until December, the mantra that he signed him for 5 years is bollix, in 2 years time if he does get over his chronic injuries he might be looking for a club that actually has CL football.

He alone has to take the full blame for this, also signing the Greek centre back is an insult to a club with aspirtations of CL football.

Kyriakos, the club didnt really have a choice. needed a 4th choice CB, happy to be on the bench, decent aerial ability, feck all wages.

your point about aquilani would make sense if we were 2 years down the line & not making the CL, however we are not. also, independant medical personel informed Liverpool he'd be back for Oct-he wasnt, life goes on. signing a player who is injured for a while is nothing new & a lot of managers have done the same. you're also totally ignoring the fact that our midfield has not been an issue this season.

johnson, we now have one of the best RBs in the world at the club & yet you find fault with it. strange.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

So the poor results of two of the top 4 teams is irrelvant to the final league table? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

read what i posted.

the points totals were that high last year, that there is no guarantee chelsea and arsenal would have overtaken us.

they may have been closer, but no guarantee they would have overtaken us.

we were not lucky to get 2nd last year, we played very well to get there. suggesting that it was mainly down to the cr*pness of two other teams is disrespectful to our performances last year.

as i say, by your logic, utd were lucky to win the league, seen as you didn't finish far ahead of us, who were only in second because of the failures of other teams.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kyriakos, the club didnt really have a choice. needed a 4th choice CB, happy to be on the bench, decent aerial ability, feck all wages.

He is muck Alan and he can't be justified. I would be embarrased if he were at my club.

When the likes of Dunne and Huth went for 4/5 million it makes the signing even more stupid.

Mr Alan wrote: »

your point about aquilani would make sense if we were 2 years down the line & not making the CL, however we are not. also, independant medical personel informed Liverpool he'd be back for Oct-he wasnt, life goes on. signing a player who is injured for a while is nothing new & a lot of managers have done the same.

Idependent Medical Personal???

I just need to look at his record. He is an Italian Louis Saha FFS!!!

Mr Alan wrote: »

johnson, we now have one of the best RBs in the world at the club & yet you find fault with it. strange.

My problem with Johnson is the amount of money spent on him. He is not one of the best full backs in the world, far from it.

You had a club like Pompey over the barrel for 7 million who were in the middle of a firesale.

What did Kranjcar go for in the end? 2 million? That 7 million could have been used to actually add dept to the squad instead of spunking it on a player who has previously failed at the top level.

Mr Alan wrote: »

you're also totally ignoring the fact that our midfield has not been an issue this season.

Keep telling yourself that Alan, Masch is not interested and Lucas is not up to it.

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

So the poor results of two of the top 4 teams is irrelvant to the final league table? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

If that's the case, it applies every year and to other teams as well. It's like arguing Arsenal are 3rd because Liverpool and City are having poor seasons so far, or United only won because Chelsea had a poor season.

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

So the poor results of two of the top 4 teams is irrelvant to the final league table? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

...pool finished with 86 points, there isn't really a way to diminish that talking about other teams underperforming. its not like we got second with 70odd points. 86points is fukin massive, and massive progress, regardless what the teams around were doing!

Spiritoftheseventies

This the latest on Rafa from managing director, Christian Purslow. sure his contract will be up for discussion at end of season but this would seem to be definitive line from club for now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8377808.stm
But Purslow said Benitez would remain and added: "He is under no threat.
"I'm on the record as saying Rafa's signed a new five-year contract - he's four months into that contract so to discuss that is not appropriate."

PHB

Liverpool came 2nd last year, at the peak of a cycle. They didn't win the league though. They came 2nd, and now they are nowhere. Beyond that, Chelsea and Arsenal were at their weakest in years last year. That is now changed. They are back to their best.

Since then, largely due to Rafa imo, Alonso left. It's not yet clear if he has been replaced. While some posters on here think that coming 2nd to 4th is the same, I don't think most players would agree. Indeed, ask yourself why you think coming 2nd last year was important, and why your season was better than Arsenals. The reserve is true this year.

Beyond that, players start to question it. Players aren't happy getting into the CL quarters and coming 4th. They want to win things.

Does nobody else think that this summer, if Liverpool come 4th, and are out of the CL early, that players will start to consider their position.

Teams work in cycles, and they peak at certain points, and you need to capitalise on that. Last year was a peak for Liverpool. [It was a peak for United too imo]

This summer, it's quite possible a few players will consider leaving.
Mascherano we know for sure has had his head turned by Spain, and indeed may even have left last summer.
Agger is also a player who could be gotten.

After that, the only players who I think Liverpool fans would really be upset about losing would be Reina, Gerrard and Torres, who I think most would expect to be there next season. The season afterwards perhaps some might consider their position. [Although with G&H in charge, should a big enough offer come in, anyone could be gotten].

So by then, you've a situation where Gerrard is 30, near the end of his career. Benayoun is also 30, Carragher is 32. The team will then need to start being rebuilt.
Who will take over from Gerrard? Who will replace Mascherano.

Liverpool are in a rebuilding cycle again imo. Just like United are too. Sure we might be in our around there, but ultimately both are looking at rebuilding. United may lose Vidic in the summer, Liverpool might lose Mascherano. Ferdinand and Carragher are both getting past it/past it. Scholes Neville Giggs all towards the end. Gerrard Benayoun (albeit a bit behind) coming towards the end.

So putting your faith behind Benetiz is putting your faith behind him for 2-3 more seasons at least. If you think that Benetiz can spend 20 million net this summer and turn them into a winning squad I think you're a bit nuts. Especially with the money United and City will drop this summer which will be more than Liverpool without a doubt.

I think even if Liverpool just hold onto 4th this year, which personally I suspect they will once Gerrard and Torres start going again, the following year the struggle is going to be the same. Alonso missing devasated you this season, Mascherano leaving might do the same. What if Rafa ****s up again in regards to the replacement and the season is over before he even gets going? I think its unlikely, but then again, each year the mistake has been different, so I'd imagine something else will occur.

Personally I'm happy to let Rafa stick it up. I honestly don't believe they will ever win the league with him in charge, at least not in the forthcoming 2-3 years while Fergie is around. If you want to stick with him, you need to stick with him for longer imo.

Mr Alan

PHB-you know i think you're a sound fella & good poster, but to say Liverpools team has peaked, or is at a point where it needs to be rebuilt is insanity. its a young team with only Carragher (replacement most likely already at club) & Aurelio (squad player) 30 or more.

Reina-26
Carra-31
agger-24
skrtel-24
johnson-25
aurelio-30
Lucas-22
Aquilani-25
Mascherano-25
Gerrard-29
Kuyt-29
Babel-22
Benayoun-29
Riera-27
Torres-25
Ngog-20

LuckyLloyd

Iago wrote: »

What manager working with the same restrictions, and who would take the job on that basis, would have a better chance of doing so than Rafa in your view?

This is the key question that is never adequately answered.

spockety

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is the key question that is never adequately answered.

So what!!!! Now is not the time to debate that!!!! RAFA OUT!!!!!!

Once that FSW is gone we can finally take our place at the top of the table!!!!!!!!

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is the key question that is never adequately answered.

so just keep flogging a dead horse instead?

sounds like a much better plan.

Spiritoftheseventies

spockety wrote: »

So what!!!! Now is not the time to debate that!!!! RAFA OUT!!!!!!

Once that FSW is gone we can finally take our place at the top of the table!!!!!!!!

What does FSW stand for?

Xavi6

bayviewclose wrote: »

What does FSW stand for?

I presume it's to do with Rafa's evening job taking orders in a restaurant.

everdead.ie

spockety

Fantastic Spanish Winner, actually.

PHB

Mr Alan wrote: »

PHB-you know i think you're a sound fella & good poster, but to say Liverpools team has peaked, or is at a point where it needs to be rebuilt is insanity. its a young team with only Carragher (replacement most likely already at club) & Aurelio (squad player) 30 or more.

Reina-26
Carra-31
agger-24
skrtel-24
johnson-25
aurelio-30
Lucas-22
Aquilani-25
Mascherano-25
Gerrard-29
Kuyt-29
Babel-22
Benayoun-29
Riera-27
Torres-25
Ngog-20

The top nexus of the squad is aging.

Best player this season? Benayoun?
Best player of the decade? Gerrard?
Ditto with Carragher.

Three top players who are about to be on a downward trend, or in the case of Carragher, already are.

Carragher needs to be replaced. Everybody knows this. CB is a problem area for Liverpool right now.

If Gerrard leaves, your attack still needs to be replaced. Babel might be young, but seems unlikely to be the player to step up. Benayoun aging. Riera solid player at 27, but solid rather than Gerrard level. Don't forget Kuyt is 29 too.

Combined with Mascherano probably leaving, it's likely in the next 2 years, you'll need to do the following in the transfer market.

Ignore everything above if it's gona distract you, but are any of the following things not needed in the next 2 years.

- Replace Carragher in defence
- Replace Mascherano in midfield [Most likely]
- Possibly replace Alonso [Depends on Aquiliana obviously]
- Begin to replace Gerrard
- Fix the problems on the wings. Kuyt, Benayoun moving on/getting worse. Babel not stepping up. Reira there, but that's it.
- Find another striker.

Not to be blunt, but that's an entire bloody team. In 3-4 years, I think it's entirely possible the first 11 will look like this

---

Reina

---

--Johnson-New CB--Agger/Srktle--Insua-

---

New DM---Aquiliani/newCM---
--New RW

---

Gerrard

---

Reira-

---

Torres

---

With Gerrard on the downslope of his career and probably not playing as much.

Liverpools squad imo peaked last season, and its gona be an entire new team built before it challenges properly, hence why if you stick with Rafa, imo it needs to be for 2-3 years at least.

United are in a fairly similar position imo too. Carrick, Hargreaves, Ferdinand, Brown, Berbatov, Neville, Scholes, Giggs, all likely to be not around or at top level in 3-4 years, with the latter 3 within 1-2.

Paul Tergat

PHB why not Agger and Skrtlel as a combination?

And surely Benayoun is coming into his peak years. He's a player not reliant on his physical assets more on his intelligence/movement and so in that sense theres no reason why he cant go on for a good few years. Same with Gerrard, I think the role he plays is one a guy as talented as he can do for years to come. 29 is not old!

ntlbell

spockety wrote: »

Fantastic Spanish Winner, actually.

I was thinking of something totally different.

I'm glad I didn't offer up my answer.

Paul Tergat

ntlbell wrote: »

I was thinking of something totally different.

I'm glad I didn't offer up my answer.

Yeah probably a good thing you didnt. Plus it would make the Pool fans not like you.....

































even more

mormank

wow im surprised at how this thread has become almost like another superthread! are rafa and liverpool done?? come on, how has a thread with that title gotten so many replies. at best we are finished for this season. liverpool football club were around before rafa and will still be around long after he is gone. to put them both in the same title suggests that we are finished if rafa leaves...YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE!!!

dont worry people, the good times will roll around again, this is merely a trough

Spiritoftheseventies

spockety wrote: »

Fantastic Spanish Winner, actually.

as opposed to something that sounds something similar to Ducking Mannish Banker

flahavaj

PHB totally owning the last couple of pages. Great, realistic analysis of the predicament in which Liverpool find themselves and of the utter bleakness of their future in the medium to long term. Top posts.

Spiritoftheseventies

Anyway to get back on topic, Whelan says that these spainish coaches brought in to teach the academy kids are part of the problem in that if Rafa goes he will take the Spanish coaches with them. Conversely their English wouldn't be that good which means that the kids would find it hard to understand them.

Iago

off-topic posts deleted

K-9

bayviewclose wrote: »

Anyway to get back on topic, Whelan says that these spainish coaches brought in to teach the academy kids are part of the problem in that if Rafa goes he will take the Spanish coaches with them. Conversely their English wouldn't be that good which means that the kids would find it hard to understand them.

Where do they live?

starbelgrade

mormank wrote: »

dont worry people, the good times will roll around again, this is merely a trough

The trough has been going on a lot longer than the 5 years Rafa has been at the club.

sisco

I hope Just Rafa

sisco

I love my club so I would also love Bentez out

jesus_thats_gre

Stop posting in bold!

Spiritoftheseventies

TWO WINS OUT OF TWO. CRISIS OVER

Handsome Bob

Only for it to return the next time we **** up.

Sherifu

bayviewclose wrote: »

TWO WINS OUT OF TWO. CRISIS OVER

\m/

mike65

I want to know where the City/Hughes thread is!

ntlbell

mike65 wrote: »

I want to know where the City/Hughes thread is!

I think people are just taken for granted he'll be gone by the end of the season

Ush1

I don't think they'll ever win the premier league with Benitez.

SlickRic

Ush1 wrote: »

I don't think they'll ever win the premier league with Benitez.

you're new here aren't you?

kida

ntlbell wrote: »

I think people are just taken for granted he'll be gone by the end of the year

FYP

Ush1

SlickRic wrote: »

you're new here aren't you?

Hahaha, and here I was thinking I was inciteful!

Headshot

ntlbell wrote: »

I think people are just taken for granted he'll be gone by the end of the season

ill be gutted if he leaves tbh