Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Handsome Bob

Ush1 wrote: »

Hahaha, and here I was thinking I was inciteful!

Oh you're that alright. :pac:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=inciteful

Think the word you were looking for was insightful.

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

ill be gutted if he leaves tbh

well if you'd miss him, you can bring him back to utd when fergie eventually retires

please do that.

Ush1

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Oh you're that alright. :pac:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=inciteful

Think the word you were looking for was insightful.

Little bit of both maybe!:D

ntlbell

Headshot wrote: »

ill be gutted if he leaves tbh

I meant hughes, not rafa.

CR 7

ntlbell wrote: »

I meant hughes, not rafa.

He probably means both.

Spiritoftheseventies

ntlbell wrote: »

I think people are just taken for granted he'll be gone by the end of the season

Rafa has signed a long contract. So it still boils down to whether club can afford to pay him off. A lot of his coaching staff are involved in the Academy so its a very messy situation. The priority is not whether Rafa stays but if Torres stays. Champions league football is a must for him.

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

Rafa has signed a long contract. So it still boils down to whether club can afford to pay him off. A lot of his coaching staff are involved in the Academy so its a very messy situation. The priority is not whether Rafa stays but if Torres stays. Champions league football is a must for him.

he's talking about Hughes at City.

Spiritoftheseventies

SlickRic wrote: »

he's talking about Hughes at City.

How did Hughes get introduced into this thread. very confusing

K-9

bayviewclose wrote: »

How did Hughes get introduced into this thread. very confusing

Coz its a very confusing thread.

Spiritoftheseventies

K-9 wrote: »

Coz its a very confusing thread.

You are right there. So to re-iterate a point I made just there...

Rafa has signed a long contract. So it still boils down to whether club can afford to pay him off. A lot of his coaching staff are involved in the Academy so its a very messy situation. The priority is not whether Rafa stays but if Torres stays. Champions league football is a must for him.

kida

So how long more will he be given? into December and closer to relegation places than the top of the table? (11 points ahead of Wolves vs 12 points behind Chelsea) :eek:

Are the fans still behind him 100%

NabyLadistheman

kida wrote: »

Are the fans still behind him 100%

Some are some aren't. Im 100% behind him. Getting rid now would be one of the craziest decisions ever. Let's judge him in the summer when the season is over not now after the first few months

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

So how long more will he be given?

this needs to stop being asked every game or two.

he should be given until the end of the season at least, and judged then.

Glico Man

Thankfully we aren't one of those knee jerk reaction type clubs like Spurs or Newcastle where they sack a manager after a bad run.

He needs to be judged at the end of the season like others have said, then the situation can be assessed.

It has been a very poor season to date, but I still have an ounce of hope that we can do a Valencia and nick it at the end.

Hope springs eternal, however my pessimism and realism remains.

Spiritoftheseventies

My feeling is that he will probably go at end of season. Just don't think he can take team any further.

Max Power1

bayviewclose wrote: »

My feeling is that he will probably go at end of season. Just don't think he can take team any further.

And who can? The situation reminds me of when houlier's reign at anfield was coming to an end. A host of flop signings followed by an ousting..

spockety

It's far too easy to compare the two men, and it provides beautifully lazy soundbites for incompetent journalists, and web forum repeaters.

Gerard Houllier is nothing like Rafael Benitez in footballing genius. I loved Houllier, gave me some great memories, but the clubs' ambition was greater than he was in a position to provide for. With Rafa, his ambition is far bigger than the club is currently able to provide for.

Kess73

Max Power1 wrote: »

And who can? The situation reminds me of when houlier's reign at anfield was coming to an end. A host of flop signings followed by an ousting..

And when Ged was coming towards the end of his tenure, I can remember lots of talk amongst Liverpool fans about who could replace him and who could improve things.

If Rafa does go next summer, it will be because things have not improved on how they are now. If that is the case then I think it will be the right move.

As to who will replace him? Who knows. Some will say that we will not be able to get a top manager due to finances. Personally I think that is rubbish as there will be plenty of managers that would jump at the chance to manage a club with a name like Liverpool's.

My own preference is that he can make something out of this season and end up staying, but regardless of whether it is Rafa or someone new from next summer, the constant mantra of "things have improved, and we are close to being regular challengers" has to stop and become what it claims to be aboput to become.

The owners will shoulder blame from a financial point of view, and I do not want them at the club at all, but I cannot blame them in any way for the way the team performs on the pitch, especially when senior players are playing rubbish and playing like they do not give a damn. Same goes for strange sub decisions, and the team looking tactically average. That falls to the manager to fix.

This is Rafa's sixth full season, and despite areas that have improved, and some good league finishes, we are looking like we are on course to finishing with under 70 points for the third time under Rafa.

Mr Alan

Kess, not laying any blame for matters on the pitch on our owners is a huge mistake imo.

Do you not think the players attitudes would be affected by no real net spend in the team in the last 2 years?

Do you not think Rafa & the players would have liked to keep onto some better quality squad players only to be unable to do so due to the need to sell before buy?

do you not think the constant need to cut the wage bill & let talented players go has had an affect on the squad?

Rafa & the players are not without their faults & should shoulder some of the blame from the dismal start to the campaign, but to exonerate the owners of blame in regards to matters on the pitch is laughable imo.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

Do you not think Rafa & the players would have liked to keep onto some better quality squad players only to be unable to do so due to the need to sell before buy?

do you not think the constant need to cut the wage bill & let talented players go has had an affect on the squad?

Who are you referring to?

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

Who are you referring to?

Bellamy & Crouch spring to mind.

Spiritoftheseventies

He let bellamy go due to indiscipline on an away trip and Crouch was up and down I felt

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kess, not laying any blame for matters on the pitch on our owners is a huge mistake imo.

Do you not think the players attitudes would be affected by no real net spend in the team in the last 2 years?

Do you not think Rafa & the players would have liked to keep onto some better quality squad players only to be unable to do so due to the need to sell before buy?

do you not think the constant need to cut the wage bill & let talented players go has had an affect on the squad?

Rafa & the players are not without their faults & should shoulder some of the blame from the dismal start to the campaign, but to exonerate the owners of blame in regards to matters on the pitch is laughable imo.

What is laughable is the way the owners get blamed for pretty much everything.

Letting the players hide behind the owners is a joke. They are still professional footballers, and things like passing a ball or trapping a ball should be basic stuff for those guys.

The owners are to blame financially as I have already stated, and you can blame them for players not being bought.

But the players still at the club are getting paid week in week out, and it is not as though some quality did not arrive this summer either.

On paper we lost two first team players, Alonso and Arbeloa.

In Johnson we upgraded on Arbeloa so that area of the team is stronger than last season.

I don't think we have upgraded on Alonso with Aquilani, butr we have bought a player to replace Alonso with.

We have had injuries this season, but as the Man City and Blackburn games have shown, a first team that is almost totally made up of players that challenged for the title last season is playing rubbish football that would not look out of place in a Sunday league team.

As for the constant need to cut the wage bill and let talented players go because of that, well when that actually starts to happen and not just be talk, then that can be used as an issue.

Three quarters of the team this season have either not cared or are not good enough, and I include the likes of Carragher and Gerrard in that as both have been woeful at times when fit.

Last season there were plenty of issues with the owners too, and the season before.

Funny how when things are going well we can give Rafa all the credit for it, but when things are going bad it must be the owners that take most of the blame.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

Bellamy & Crouch spring to mind.

Total rubbish. Crouch handed in a transfer request and refused to sign a new contract as he wanted game time.

Bellamy went to help fund the buying of Torres.

Hardly examples of just selling players to cut the wage bill.

kippy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kess, not laying any blame for matters on the pitch on our owners is a huge mistake imo.

Do you not think the players attitudes would be affected by no real net spend in the team in the last 2 years?

Do you not think Rafa & the players would have liked to keep onto some better quality squad players only to be unable to do so due to the need to sell before buy?

do you not think the constant need to cut the wage bill & let talented players go has had an affect on the squad?

Rafa & the players are not without their faults & should shoulder some of the blame from the dismal start to the campaign, but to exonerate the owners of blame in regards to matters on the pitch is laughable imo.

Sir Alan,
With the greatest of respect, I do agree with you on some parts of your post however those said players are professionals getting paid large sums of money to play football day in day out.
Players attitudes dont get effected by no "real net spend" on players in two years, they arent that smart and if that effected their on pitch performaces I would be seriously worried.
Players attidudes are effected by any number of things but not net spend.
You cannot look to the owners for individual mistakes of players or tactical mistakes of the manager.

Dont be at yourself

I agree with the above post completely. Despite our ownership and injury worries, the players we're putting out aren't performing to their level, and must shoulder a lot of the blame.

Mr Alan

i am not trying to absolve the players & management from any blame. They are both deserving of blame. but simply pointing out the owners DO have an affect on the morale of the team & performances on the pitch. be it directly, ie:lack of finance, or indirectly, crushing morale by failing to invest in the team after such a good season last year.

reading Gerrard & Carraghers biographies its quite apparent that these things do affect the team.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

Bellamy & Crouch spring to mind.

ROFL - Crouch wanted to go and Bellamy was upgraded to Torres - was this the best you could come up with? Your post was a load of crap and this proves it. judging my the other replies you are on your own with this theory.

Mr Alan

Kess73 wrote: »

Funny how when things are going well we can give Rafa all the credit for it, but when things are going bad it must be the owners that take most of the blame.

Funnier how when the 5th most expensive team in the league, with the fifth highest wage bill is hovering around.....em fifth. its surprising.

Kess73 wrote: »

Total rubbish. Crouch handed in a transfer request and refused to sign a new contract as he wanted game time.

Bellamy went to help fund the buying of Torres.

Hardly examples of just selling players to cut the wage bill.

A long term lucrative contract has a habit of making players happier with a less involved role at a club.

and bellamy being sold to fund Torres is exactly the point i was making, ie:having to sell to buy.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

Funnier how when the 5th most expensive team in the league, with the fifth highest wage bill is hovering around.....em fifth. its surprising.



A long term lucrative contract has a habit of making players happier with a less involved role at a club.

and bellamy being sold to fund Torres is exactly the point i was making, ie:having to sell to buy.

You are clutching at straws here. Crouch wanted gametime, and handed in a transfer request because of that. Plus he has stated himself that he took a paycut to join Portsmouth, so offering him more money would not have worked in that case.

I asked you to say what players where sold in order to cut the wage bill.


As for your fifth most expensive team with the fifth highest wage bill hovering around fifth place comment.

Villa are in fifth so are you saying they are the fifth most expensive team?

Last time I checked Liverpool were in seventh place.

jesus_thats_gre

Every single person that is currently at the club shold be taken out and flogged in public. Rafa deserves a flogging but the players and owners are far due a proper going over.

jesus_thats_gre

Kess73 wrote: »

You are clutching at straws here. Crouch wanted gametime, and handed in a transfer request because of that. Plus he has stated himself that he took a paycut to join Portsmouth, so offering him more money would not have worked in that case.

Rafa recently came out and said that they tried he wanted to offer Crouch a better contract than he was on in the hope that that would make him more content playing second fiddle to Torres - who at the time was in the form of his life. Rafa is on record as saying that the contract they offered him is nowhere near what Spurs were able to offer him - sort of pointing out that he joined Tottenham knowing he would be behind Defoe and Keane in the pecking order and that the wages resulted in him being content being on the bench. Always thought that it was somewhat ironic that he left Liverpool and ultimately ended up as Spurs and possibly in a worse situation.

Handsome Bob

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Every single person that is currently at the club shold be taken out and flogged in public. Rafa deserves a flogging but the players and owners are far due a proper going over.

Eh, you kidding?

jesus_thats_gre

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Eh, you kidding?

Well yeah I don't really believe that they should literally be flogged in public.

Handsome Bob

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Well yeah I don't really believe that they should literally be flogged in public.

I know you didn't mean it literally, I just thought you were pro-Rafa. :pac:

mike65

This is the thread that keeps on giving isn't it?

Kess73

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Rafa recently came out and said that they tried he wanted to offer Crouch a better contract than he was on in the hope that that would make him more content playing second fiddle to Torres - who at the time was in the form of his life. Rafa is on record as saying that the contract they offered him is nowhere near what Spurs were able to offer him - sort of pointing out that he joined Tottenham knowing he would be behind Defoe and Keane in the pecking order and that the wages resulted in him being content being on the bench. Always thought that it was somewhat ironic that he left Liverpool and ultimately ended up as Spurs and possibly in a worse situation.

He did not join Spurs from Liverpool. He joined Portsmouth from Liverpool.

He then moved to Spurs from Portsmouth.

The contract Rafa commented on was the one that Crouch was offered at Spurs when he moved from Portsmouth to Spurs and had no bearing on his Liverpool contract at all.

~Rebel~

Kess73 wrote: »

He did not join Spurs from Liverpool. He joined Portsmouth from Liverpool.

He then moved to Spurs from Portsmouth.

The contract Rafa commented on was the one that Crouch was offered at Spurs when he moved from Portsmouth to Spurs and had no bearing on his Liverpool contract at all.

i think you're missing his point somewhat. Crouch choose to play regular ball rather then take the terms of contract at pool at be on the bench. He made the opposite decision from pompy to Spurs, accepting a large payout to sit on the bench. Ergo, it stands to reason that had pool offered a contract as large as spurs did, he might have taken it.

mike65

Slightly OT but I think 'arry has decided that he is no longer the third choice striker, Keane has that honour.

Mr Alan

mike65 wrote: »

Slightly OT but I think 'arry has decided that he is no longer the third choice striker, Keane has that honour.

i await the backlash from the media..........

jesus_thats_gre

Kess73 wrote: »

He did not join Spurs from Liverpool. He joined Portsmouth from Liverpool.

He then moved to Spurs from Portsmouth.

The contract Rafa commented on was the one that Crouch was offered at Spurs when he moved from Portsmouth to Spurs and had no bearing on his Liverpool contract at all.

I am perfectly aware of all of those facts. I am pointing out that Liverpool wanted to keep him and if they could have offereded him enough in wages, he may have been happier playing second fiddle to Torres. Rafa commented on how the momey that Spurs were offering him was a fair bit more than Liverpool could offer, even with an improved offer before he left.

SlickRic

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I know you didn't mean it literally, I just thought you were pro-Rafa. :pac:

just because someone is pro-Rafa doesn't mean they blindly support everything that is happening, and can't lay some blame at his feet for doing a bad job at times.

it's a common misconception about Rafa supporters, especially on these boards.

edit: just saw the smiley; point still stands on its own though. :pac:

jesus_thats_gre

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I know you didn't mean it literally, I just thought you were pro-Rafa. :pac:

I am 100% behind Rafa. Saying that, he is not immune from criticism in all of this. The players are more responsible for but he has obviously had a part to play.

As for the owners...



Edit: also missed smiley

kippy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Funnier how when the 5th most expensive team in the league, with the fifth highest wage bill is hovering around.....em fifth. its surprising.

Liverpools second place finish last year then was either:
A. A flash in the pan ie a fluke, ie the team being luckboxes.
B. Taking advantage of a Chelsea team in flux and an Arsenal team being Arsenal
(I am not saying either of those things are true, just putting a few statements together.
One of the main reasons this team are where they are is no doubt down to the owners, however not every club can have a sugar daddy that can put superstars out on the pitch.
Rafa has, in my opinion, bought a lot of very poor players and some of the buys he has made have surprised me, ie buying for one position when it was obvious people were needed elsewhere.

If fifth actually IS where Liverpool should be hovering and they do indeed stay they, they are screwed as a club, mainly due to their debts.

K-9

kippy wrote: »

Liverpools second place finish last year then was either:
A. A flash in the pan ie a fluke, ie the team being luckboxes.
B. Taking advantage of a Chelsea team in flux and an Arsenal team being Arsenal
(I am not saying either of those things are true, just putting a few statements together.
One of the main reasons this team are where they are is no doubt down to the owners, however not every club can have a sugar daddy that can put superstars out on the pitch.
Rafa has, in my opinion, bought a lot of very poor players and some of the buys he has made have surprised me, ie buying for one position when it was obvious people were needed elsewhere.

If fifth actually IS where Liverpool should be hovering and they do indeed stay they, they are screwed as a club, mainly due to their debts.

Personally I just think its down to us leaking goals, unlike last year.

20 and its not even Christmas, 27 all last season.

kippy

K-9 wrote: »

Personally I just think its down to us leaking goals, unlike last year.

20 and its not even Christmas, 27 all last season.

Well obviously, thats going to have an impact on league position, but is that the level Liverpool should normally be playing at, or did they over perform last year?

Personally, as a football fan (who wouldn't support any one team in the PL) Liverpool's capitulation from last seasons league challengers status to also rans by November has been extremely disappointing, however I have to ask myself, did they over perform last season based on their resources and is this season more of how they should be performing based on their competition.
If so, where to next for LFC - the owners and to an extent this year even the manager dont seem to care too much. Rafa was far more "vocal" about the owners and structure last year than he has been since his contract was signed and Parry ousted when most of the fans are still of the opinion that the problems with the owners haven't gone away.

jesus_thats_gre

kippy wrote: »

Well obviously, thats going to have an impact on league position, but is that the level Liverpool should normally be playing at, or did they over perform last year?

Well compare the number of goals that we have conceded in previous seasons under Rafa to how many we have conceded so fart his season. It is as clear as day where the problem is and this is why we have dropped so many points this season. Throw in a shed load of injuries and you get the picture.

They are basically under-performing this season when compared to last season which was the culmination of a few seasons of steady growth.

This conversation really is pointless.

jesus_thats_gre

kippy wrote: »

, however I have to ask myself, did they over perform last season based on their resources

What I want to know is when the majority of folk out there realise the state that the club is in and stop blaming it on the bloody manager.

eagle eye

The problem for Liverpool is much the same as Arsenal. Take Fabregas and Van Persie out of the Arsenal team and they are not nearly as good.
Similarly take Gerard and Torres out of the Liverpool team and its the same thing.
Some people will point to specific games to say thats not true but Burnley beat United this season so one game where something happened is not going to change the fact that over the course of a season the top two players for both these teams are worth a lot of points to them.

You don't have that at Chelsea or United, they have an adepuate replacement for any player on their team. These clubs have so much depth its frightening and its because they can afford it.

A gap has been developing in the big four as they have moved away from the rest. Its got all to do with money.

Its been happening for years, either Chelsea or United have been the League Champions for the last five seasons. Liverpool finished on 82 points in 05/06, one point less than last year but their seasons have been mixed. Certainly as long as Steven Gerard is there, they will always be a top outfit but as soon as he starts to decline they are going to fall away. And its simply down to money.

I don't think Liverpool are done yet, I don't think Arsenal are done yet either but they have to keep finding players at a young age who will develop into elite players if they are to stay in the Champion's league picture consistently.

I do think that one of them is going to lose out on a Champion's League spot this year as things stand, but I wouldn't be surprised if another spot miraculously becomes available in a qualifying tournament if things seem to be heading that way. The ECA can be persuasive and the English sides would receive support for something like this from their Spanish and Italian counterparts which make up a big part of the association.

The Muppet

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

What I want to know is when the majority of folk out there realise the state that the club is in and stop blaming it on the bloody manager.

The squads not good enough and there's only one man responsible for that, Rafa. His poor signings has the club in the position it is,