Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Paul Tergat

curry-muff wrote: »

Fact still remains that Wenger has won the premiership, Benitez hasn't. :rolleyes:

put it in context mate.

Rafa began in the premiership with a massive spending chelsea and then onto a rebuilt Utd team.

Wenger came in with a lot less challenges. Not to take away from Wenger really, he's an awesome manager.

OPENROAD

raven136 wrote: »

If you sign a player at 17/18 and he then works out does that make him "though the ranks".Was it not barca who saw a rough diamond in Cesc and not Wenger.I love the football wenger plays but he has finished and won less than rafa in his 5 seasons at the club.
Also didnt Rafa take a player with a decent but niot great scoring record in spain that Wenger and Fergie were not interested in and turn him into the best striker in the world?Torres himself has said Rafa has made him a better player.

Us liverpool fans dont need to be told about the problems at our club,check out Irishkop,sos etc to see.We are realistic but everytime Rafa is mentioned so is his spending etc.

Since 2004

Arsenal have won the premiership and FA cup in this time.
Liverpool have won a Champions league and FA cup.

WIZE

OP Liverpool are gone this season

Fromvert

BVB wrote: »

OP Liverpool are gone this season

Where are they gone? Did they get lost on the way home from Sunderland?

Lucas and Rafa, I'm blaming you for this.

Mr Alan

OPENROAD wrote: »

Since 2004

Arsenal have won the premiership and FA cup in this time.
Liverpool have won a Champions league and FA cup.

did Arsenal not win the league in 2003/2004, with Rafas first season being 2004/2005?

can we include a la liga title & uefa cup from 2003/2004 too then?

Paul Tergat

Mr Alan wrote: »

did Arsenal not win the league in 2003/2004, with Rafas first season being 2004/2005?

Can you take your facts out of here please? Note, I didnt say FACHTS.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

did Arsenal not win the league in 2003/2004, with Rafas first season being 2004/2005?

can we include a la liga title & uefa cup from 2003/2004 too then?

Fair enough, but not much in the difference,anyhow I don't want to take this OT and turn the thread into an Arsenal V Liverpool thread, so apologies for my part in it.

As I said earlier it is far too early to judge though my own feeling is that Liverpool won't win the premiership this season.

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arshavin may be world class, so thats Rafa 3-Wenger 1. by your own standards!
.

What are you on about FFS?

The question was about players who were bought not in the current squad. Learn to read.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Insua. Current LB..

Thats like saying Cesc or Walcot is a home grown Arsenal player ffs:rolleyes:

Mr Alan wrote: »

No, no he wasn't.

Yes, Yes he was.

Bubs101

While Rafa may have done a good job monetarily on the market I don't particularly think he's done a great job overall. Liverpool have never gone into a season without one massive weakspot since he's been there (this year it's left back) and they don't have any depth at all. The team they put out against Sunderland is not a top 4 team. Put the 3 out in and they're quality but Liverpool are never going to go through a season with those 3 fit for the whole thing or even the not so important players like Kuyt or Johnson and they'll still struggle because the replacements are so poor.

That doesn't happen at Chelsea, we have a phenomenally strong bench, Man Utd are more than adequately covered and are less reliant on one or two players and Arsenal have a host of top young talent ready to make an impact. Even City and Spurs have a somewhat loaded bench compared to the Pool. Rafa has had that problem ever since he dipped into the transfer market and has lost the likes of Smicer and Hamman who gave that depth without replacing them. That's why IMO he's failed in the transfer market. His team are built for a cup run, not a league campaign

Paul Tergat

jank wrote: »

Yes, Yes he was.

Can i see some concrete proof please where we have quotes from both sides saying a deal was pretty much nearly done?

Fromvert

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Can i see some concrete proof please where we have quotes from both sides saying a deal was pretty much nearly done?

You can't be asking for facts in a thread regarding Liverpool. Why listen to facts when you can make up stuff and people will believe you.

Mr Alan

jank wrote: »

What are you on about FFS?

The question was about players who were bought not in the current squad. Learn to read.

cool your jets mate. you said Rafa has only brought two players to Liverpool in his that could be deemed world class.

i just pointed out that was wrong.

Thats like saying Cesc or Walcot is a home grown Arsenal player ffs:rolleyes:

you didn't ask about home grown players.

you said;

When is the last player to come up through the ranks at liverpool?

the answer is Insua, joined Liverpool in 2006, couple of seasons in the reserves with couple of apps in cups etc. now a first team regular.

if indeed you mean when was the last time a player spent their whole youth career at Liverpool and made the move up, the answer would probably be Warnock.

you however seemed to be making the point that this was somthing Wenger excelled at, but when is the last player to come from Arsenals reserves to establish themselves in the first team that wasn't taken from another club?

Yes, Yes he was.

find me one solid link stating that Torres was on the verge of signing for City.

here's what Torres says about playing for another English club.

'I hope to play a lot of years or maybe even finish my career here.

'I don't know, but Liverpool is my English team and I don't think about playing for another one

stories about Torres goin to City were nothing more than journalists making **** up.

Liverpool-broke.
City-rich.
Torres to City.

thats their train of thought.

Paul Tergat

Fromvert wrote: »

You can't be asking for facts in a thread regarding Liverpool. Why listen to facts when you can make up stuff and people will believe you.

:pac:

ok then, how about Pool are mathematically out of the title race. No facts needed - good enough?

Mr.Nice Guy

We are around a quarter way through the season and Liverpool have already lost four games. Three of those four defeats were against non top four sides. Between now and Christmas they have games against the likes of Man Utd, Man City, Everton and Arsenal. If they lose next week to United they go ten points behind Fergie's men.

Last season United only lost 4 times on their way to winning the title. Liverpool have already lost that many so far. Last season they only lost twice. Puts things into perspective, no?

If we look at the list of title winners the last couple of seasons it seems that recent trends suggest a team can lose a maximum of 5 times if they want to win the league.

Man United - 2009 winners = lost 4 times
Man United - 2008 winners = lost 5 times
Man United - 2007 winners = lost 5 times
Chelsea - 2006 winners = lost 5 times
Chelsea - 2005 winners = lost 1 time
Arsenal - 2004 winners = lost 0 times
Man United - 2003 winners = lost 5 times
Arsenal - 2002 winners = lost 3 times
Man United - 2001 winners = lost 6 times
Man United - 2000 winners = lost 3 times

By my calculations, on average over the last decade, the title winning team has lost an average of 3.7 games.

United in 2001 managed to win the title in spite of 6 defeats but clearly this was against the norm. Even if a team does win the title this season in spite of 6 defeats, with Liverpool already on 4 defeats how likely is it that from now through the remainder of the season they will only lose on 2 more occasions?

With this being the case, is it really far-fetched to suggest at this stage that the title is already beyond Liverpool? I don't think so. In my opinion, it is.

Fromvert

p_larkin99 wrote: »

:pac:

ok then, how about Pool are mathematically out of the title race. No facts needed - good enough?

No point in watching the rest of our league games so.

I suppose I'll cheer for City so, sure they'll have Gerrard and Torres come the end of January and who knows Rafa might even be there (nah wait a minute he's a **** manager, they won't take him). It will be like watching Liverpool as we're only a two man team.

C'mon City.

Paul Tergat

Fromvert wrote: »

No point in watching the rest of our league games so.

I suppose I'll cheer for City so, sure they'll have Gerrard and Torres come the end of January and who knows Rafa might even be there (nah wait a minute he's a **** manager, they won't take him). It will be like watching Liverpool as we're only a two man team.

C'mon City.

do you not feel dirty for even jokingly suggesting that.

Im guessing that Torres is an easy signing for them anyway seeing as he nearly signed in the summer!

Ugh, I hate both Citeh and Pool.

Mr Alan

in fairness stats like that mean feck all.

last season for example was the highest points tally ever to not win a league & we were the first team to lose only 2 games & not win the league.

all the stats meant **** all in the end though.

personally i think that there'll be more points dropped this season than there has been for many a year by all the top teams.

84 points would win the league imo this year.

that'd be 30 points dropped.

so conceivably the winner could lose 6 or 7 and draw a few.

is it possible that Liverpool can only lose a couple more & have a few draws over the rest of the season? you yourself pointed out they only lost 2 all season last year & we dont look like a side that'll draw many this year, so it certainly is imo, with a huge part of that being how Aquilani does when he gets into the team.

but its worth remembering, this thread is not about are we done for in the race to the league title. the op speaks of a 6th place finish & Rafa being sacked.

Fromvert

p_larkin99 wrote: »

do you not feel dirty for even jokingly suggesting that.

Im guessing that Torres is an easy signing for them anyway seeing as he nearly signed in the summer!

Ugh, I hate both Citeh and Pool.

I just don't take the sh't people spout seriously anymore. So now I just nod along and agree with them and maybe make up something else. Its better for my own health.

BTW, Kuyt is ****e how does he keep getting a game. Its beyond me.

Paul Tergat

Fromvert wrote: »

I just don't take the sh't people spout seriously anymore. So now I just nod along and agree with them and maybe make up something else. Its better for my own health.

BTW, Kuyt is ****e how does he keep getting a game. Its beyond me.

The sad thing is that everyone is entitled to an opinion.

The key is whether this is an informed one.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr Alan wrote: »

in fairness stats like that mean feck all.

last season for example was the highest points tally ever to not win a league & we were the first team to lose only 2 games & not win the league.

all the stats meant **** all in the end though.

personally i think that there'll be more points dropped this season than there has been for many a year by all the top teams.

84 points would win the league imo this year.

that'd be 30 points dropped.

so conceivably the winner could lose 6 or 7 and draw a few.

is it possible that Liverpool can only lose a couple more & have a few draws over the rest of the season? you yourself pointed out they only lost 2 all season last year & we dont look like a side that'll draw many this year, so it certainly is imo, with a huge part of that being how Aquilani does when he gets into the team.

but its worth remembering, this thread is not about are we done for in the race to the league title. the op speaks of a 6th place finish & Rafa being sacked.

Well would you agree with me that if Liverpool were to lose 2 more games between now and Christmas that it's all but over? I can't see a player new to the Premiership effectively having to spearhead an undefeated streak to get his team back in contention.

If Liverpool lose say 2 more games between now and Christmas and their rivals surge ahead, would Rafa continuing in his position be justifiable considering Liverpool would be out of the title race so early? I'm not sure the patience of the fans or board would hold.

Fromvert

p_larkin99 wrote: »

The sad thing is that everyone is entitled to an opinion.

The key is whether this is an informed one.

Fromvert wrote: »

I think its time the soccer mods come up with some sort of football IQ test that posters have to pass before being allowed comment.

What do you think?

Paul Tergat

Fromvert wrote: »

What do you think?

lol, never work in reality

Fromvert

p_larkin99 wrote: »

lol, never work in reality

I know but I can dream and thats where I'm heading now.

jank

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Can i see some concrete proof please where we have quotes from both sides saying a deal was pretty much nearly done?

Hold on there while I get Nando on speaker phone.

Paul Tergat

jank wrote: »

Hold on there while I get Nando on speaker phone.

Thats a pathetic way of admitting that you're talking complete ****e.

If you have proof and if it was commonly known it was in any way close to being done you would have the evidence readily available. The fact is you made it up and have nothing to back it up with and are now trying to be smart about it.

jank

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Thats a pathetic way of admitting that you're talking complete ****e.

If you have proof and if it was commonly known it was in any way close to being done you would have the evidence readily available. The fact is you made it up and have nothing to back it up with and are now trying to be smart about it.

Your asking for the impossible, so I gave you the appropriate answer.
I didnt make it up at all by the way.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/football/554495/DOOMSDAY-SCENARIO-FOR-LIVERPOOL.html

Its ok you can keep your head in the coulds.

Xavi6

thebhoy wrote: »

He's the captain of argentina, how can the captain of argentina be overrated... (asides from veron that is) who is coveted by barcelona!

But he's the captain of Maradona's Argentina so not even sure if he would put that on his CV Personally I think Mascherano is very overrated and certainly not worth double what Liverpool paid, as has been said in this thread. Decent enough player but horrible on the ball and a liability in that regard.

Bounty Hunter

I dont think Rafa should go or take most of the blame if Liverpool fail to win the league. I dont think they will win the league infact and think they will be fighting it out for 4th this season most likely bt thats all just my opinion.

Never having both Agger & Skyrtle (sp?) fit has been a big problem for me as Carragher does seem to have lost something and yet plays every game.

Liverpool do lack in quality backup but the money has been spent where needed (an Alonso & Arbeloa replacement) even if I though Johnson cost a lot more than expected. Infact that for me (and most others going by all the Gerrard/Torres talk) is the main problem, Ngog/Vorinin replacing an injured Torres or coming off the bench to change things does not worry the opposition, if anything it instills more confidence in them as they are probably replacing a player the opposition see as being better than them.

Liverpool do have more top quality players than just Gerrard/Torres though and that should be obvious considering they have the likes of Mascherano, Reina and Kuyt at the club. Speaking of Mascherano he is not worse now that Alonso is gone he is still a top class DM that I would argue virtually any club in the world would be happy to have. Of course Alonso's departure has weakened Liverpool but tbh except last year he had been underperforming for a while (Hense the Barry saga) and I am confident that Aquilani from the Italien football ive seen can adequately replace him, Unfortunatley he will be compared to only the very best of Alonso.

Babel's development or seemingly lack there of whilst at Liverpool has been the biggest disapointment for me though as I had high hopes for him and considering the modest spending Liverpool have been making in recent times a player like him really needs to deliver.

I dont know what exactely could be gained from sackiing Rafa even if they lose next week to Utd if im honest as there are very few if any managers that I could see doing a better job and even if you could find someone capable of such a feat they probabkly would not be interested in the post. Worrying thing for Liverpool fans is though that it isnt just your 7 points behind Utd they also have to make up ground on Villa/City/Arsenal who all have a game in hand and Spurs while the general consensus seems to be that those teams are going to be much harder to beat this season.







btw: Are Gerrard and Torres expected to be fit for Lyon?

Bandit12

Are people seriously saying Liverpool are out of the title race?
Will people be saying they are out of the title race if they beat manu this weekend?
Long long way to go yet.

daveyboy_1ie

Bandit12 wrote: »

Are people seriously saying Liverpool are out of the title race?
Will people be saying they are out of the title race if they beat manu this weekend?
Long long way to go yet.

Exaclty my opinion. By this logic if things return to normal and United draw or beat Liverpool in Anfield (last season was an abberation on recent seasons results we all can admit) does this mean that they are out of it? Its silly people are ruling ANYONE out at this stage, but its also silly to say anyone is going to win until we hit the final quarter of the season, not this first one.

Last season was a weird season as in effect there were only two teams in it after Christmas and in all honesty did anyone expect Liverpool to do it? At the start of last season all 'pool fans were bickering amongst themselves about whether Rafa should go or not, suddenly this season people seem dissapointed they are not top of the league. All footie fans are fickle and tribal but thats absurd.

Chelsea will be the main competition to United this year cos in my humble opinion they simply have a squad capable of doing it, wheras all the rest of us have poorer squads compared to last. Thankfully Chelsea messed around with their managers over the last few seasons but now they will be back and all the rest of us can hope is we are still in it when the African Nations cup starts in January and they lose a few of their top stars.

Mr Alan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If Liverpool lose say 2 more games between now and Christmas and their rivals surge ahead, would Rafa continuing in his position be justifiable considering Liverpool would be out of the title race so early? I'm not sure the patience of the fans or board would hold.

absolutely.

the money spent at Villa/Spurs/Sunderland over the last few seasons is more than or around wat Liverpool spent.

its only crazies & some Utd fans who think it's title or bust for Liverpool.

the only way Rafas position should become questionable imo is if we finish outside the top 4.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

the only way Rafas position should become questionable imo is if we finish outside the top 4.

So if Liverpool don't make the top 4 you would want to see Rafa sacked?

Mr Alan

Not this season, probably not, i'd give him the start of next season too.

Doesn't matter though, won't happen imo.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Not this season, probably not, i'd give him the start of next season too.

Non qualification for the CL would not just see Rafa have to go, but quite possibily Torres aswell.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Doesn't matter though, won't happen imo.

They will struggle IMO.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Non qualification for the CL would not just see Rafa have to go, but quite possibily Torres aswell.

Wouldn't imagine so tbh. Think he'd give it a couple of years before he had to do that & i wouldn't blame him.

Boggles wrote: »

They will struggle IMO.

fair enough.

NabyLadistheman

Ya Liverpool will not make the top 4. What a laugh. Such a knee-jerk reaction this place.

Here's the story after the weekend. Dropped no further behind many people's favourite's Chelsea. Have all the big boys to play at home. Positions 4-8 in the EPL are alot stronger this season and all the top sides will drop further points.

Liverpool have lost 4, Chelsea & United 2 each. A depleted Liverpool lost away to a Sunderland side who should have won at OT 2 weeks ago.

I for one will not be over-reacting. This time last year it was the exact opposite but same people writing us off. We lost at Spurs and the season was effectively over. We have our 20 mill midfielder yet to kick a ball.

A win next weekend & United will have lost 3 an we'll be back on track. Boom boom baloon!

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

its only crazies & some Utd fans who think it's title or bust for Liverpool.

the only way Rafas position should become questionable imo is if we finish outside the top 4.

What about the Owners, do you think they will keep faith with Rafa if he win's nothing this year? I don't think so, They would have got rid of him long ago but for the fans backing him.

kida

torresistheman wrote: »

A win next weekend & United will have lost 3 an we'll be back on track. Boom boom baloon!

do you have Essiens calculator - utd have only lost once thus far.

Pools squad is far too eaek to challenge or possibly even make top 4. This squad is no Rafas and he has to take the blame for it. He spent almost 40m this summer on 2 players and in hindsight given the money situation that probably should have been on 4/5 players to increase the strength in depth of the squad. Possibly even throw in a few experienced free transfers.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

What about the Owners, do you think they will keep faith with Rafa if he win's nothing this year? I don't think so, They would have got rid of him long ago but for the fans backing him.

i have no idea wat those two will do.

Boggles

torresistheman wrote: »

Ya Liverpool will not make the top 4. What a laugh. Such a knee-jerk reaction this place.

I said it before the League started.

torresistheman wrote: »

Have all the big boys to play at home.

And the majority away.

torresistheman wrote: »

Liverpool have lost 4, Chelsea & United 2 each.

United have lost once.

torresistheman wrote: »

A win next weekend & United will have lost 3 an we'll be back on track. Boom boom baloon!

2

NabyLadistheman

kida wrote: »

do you have Essiens calculator - utd have only lost once thus far.

Pools squad is far too eaek to challenge or possibly even make top 4. This squad is no Rafas and he has to take the blame for it. He spent almost 40m this summer on 2 players and in hindsight given the money situation that probably should have been on 4/5 players to increase the strength in depth of the squad. Possibly even throw in a few experienced free transfers.

Apologies for the typo.

So instead of buying an excellent right back & replacement with the cash he got for Alonso he should have bought 4/5 bit team players to increase the squad. Don't make me laugh. These are the players that people are saying now aren't good enough. He had shag all money and spent it as well as we could have hoped.

Mr Alan

kida wrote: »

Pools squad is far too eaek to challenge or possibly even make top 4.

not true imo.

the squad was good enough to challenge for the title last year.

we've lost alonso, but added Aquilani & Johnson, so there is not much between the squads tbh, and could conceivably could be improved if Aquilani lives up to the hype.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

the squad was good enough to challenge for the title last year.

Meh it was Uniteds to lose, in reality it was a one horse race from Christmas on, as the table was skewed because of that competition in Asia and uniteds games in hand.

Liverpool also had a clear run at the league being out of all cup competitions before the semis.

Mr Alan

ok boggles.

NabyLadistheman

Boggles wrote: »

I said it before the League started.

In fairness you say alot of things boggles. More anti-Liverpool than pro United as far as I can see. I never seen someone with so much to say about another club.

Gerrard would have been locked up at the time of his trial if you had your way. I thought you were in the bar where the scrap happened. You seem to know everything about our 2 American owners & the finances of the club. Hoo-ray for you

As I said apologies for the typo

spockety

The Muppet wrote: »

What about the Owners, do you think they will keep faith with Rafa if he win's nothing this year? I don't think so, They would have got rid of him long ago but for the fans backing him.

The owners care more about money than they do about winning.

Rafa is a manager who gets the results that keep Liverpool's balance sheet just about as good as it can realistically expected to be.

In money terms, the difference between winning the league and coming 2nd is not all that much. A good stretch in the Champions League will also bring in the dough.

I'd say they're happy enough.

Headshot

spockety wrote: »

The owners care more about money than they do about winning.

Rafa is a manager who gets the results that keep Liverpool's balance sheet just about as good as it can realistically expected to be.

In money terms, the difference between winning the league and coming 2nd is not all that much. A good stretch in the Champions League will also bring in the dough.

I'd say they're happy enough.

not totally true

they could've sold Torres during the summer if they wanted

Mr Alan

but then Liverpool would most likely struggle for the CL Headshot, the owners need CL for the money it generates & to attract investors.

Boggles

torresistheman wrote: »

In fairness you say alot of things boggles. More anti-Liverpool than pro United as far as I can see. I never seen someone with so much to say about another club.

Gerrard would have been locked up at the time of his trial if you had your way. I thought you were in the bar where the scrap happened. You seem to know everything about our 2 American owners & the finances of the club. Hoo-ray for you

As I said apologies for the typo

At least I can read a league table.

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

but then Liverpool would most likely struggle for the CL Headshot, the owners need CL for the money it generates & to attract investors.

sell Torres for the reported 70m and but another striker for around 30m
and then the rest on the team