Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Vanbis

rarnes1 wrote: »

a fair prediction with 22 games left.

I think it will be tight but every team will have a bad run.

True but Liverpool have being on a bad run apart from the win at Everton. I do think once they all their players fit and Aquilani playing they are capable of going on run like they did last season and it will take an effort like that to get into the top 4.

Vanbis

Mr Alan wrote: »

they have Torres down as 26.5m.

he cost 20m according to the liverpool echo & the bbc, the two most relible sources of LFC transfers.

I thought Athletico came out with the figure of £26milion? I didnt know BBC or Echo had personal access to Liverpool finances :rolleyes:. Whatever they paid they got a absolute bargin and Rafa and everyone knows that and they could easly get £70M if they wanted.

I wouldn't agree that Fiorentina and Lyon are too strong tbh.

I don't rate the Italian league and I reckon if united or chelsea meet either of them or Lyon they'll hammer them.

Our defense cost us a place in the knockouts this year, last minute goals etc.

Mr Alan

nope never happened. 20m from virtually every source.

thats the thing, people who say Rafa has been poor in the transfer market forget that if were to sell all the players he's bought tomorrow, he'd recoup at least twice the money spent, probably far more.

so if i buy a load of things, and i increase their price massively to the extent that they are worth two/three/four times what i paid, how on gods green earth is that "poor" in the transfer market?

The Muppet

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Nay, they got their place, lost out in the qualifiers (to villareal I believe?)

Did they? I could have sworn Everton were relegated to the other comp, there was quite a bit of uproar at the time. So they did make it to the Champions league.

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

they have Torres down as 26.5m.

he cost 20m according to the liverpool echo & the bbc, the two most relible sources of LFC transfers.

thats a 6.5m difference on one transfer.

Ah right, ONE transfer which makes only £6.5million difference? Sure that could be the difference between Liverpool signing Andrea Dossena or not!

Seriously though, you could have picked a better example. A lot of people find it hard to stomach the official line that it was 20 considering a lot of other clubs (United included) were willing to pay more at the time.

edit: I think I've discovered where that 6.5 million comes from (or at least some of it). Torres had it written into his contract that a certain percentage of his transfer fee went straight to him. Liverpool were in dispute with Atletico as to who pays it prior to the transfer going through and it's not particularly clear as to how it was resolved according to google's archives. Perhap's Torres officially waved the signing on fee and that's where the discrepancy comes from in the figures reported?

Warper

Mr Alan wrote: »

nope never happened. 20m from virtually every source.

thats the thing, people who say Rafa has been poor in the transfer market forget that if were to sell all the players he's bought tomorrow, he'd recoup at least twice the money spent, probably far more.

so if i buy a load of things, and i increase their price massively to the extent that they are worth two/three/four times what i paid, how on gods green earth is that "poor" in the transfer market?

LOL - I think that is heavily swayed purely in the value of Torres. Put it like this if Liverpool lost Torres then look at their squad and you see N'Gog or Voronin up front. It is a squad game and that is why it is always Utd or Chelsea winning the PL. Take out Lampard/Drogba out of Chelsea and they would still perform, same as Rooney/Giggs.

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

Did they? I could have sworn Everton were relegated to the other comp, there was quite a bit of uproar at the time. So they did make it to the Champions league.

that hole is getting bigger!

Royale with Cheese

The Muppet wrote: »

Did they? I could have sworn Everton were relegated to the other comp, there was quite a bit of uproar at the time. So they did make it to the Champions league.

Yeah they made it in, but because England were given 3 automatic spots for the Champions League that year, they weren't seeded for the playoff draw. They got Villareal, who ended up narrowly missing out on the final that year. Fairly unlucky.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

they have Torres down as 26.5m.

he cost 20m according to the liverpool echo & the bbc, the two most relible sources of LFC transfers.

thats a 6.5m difference on one transfer.

You know It was £20 million plus Garcia Al.

Mr Alan

actually no, the total including Garcia was 20m according to Rafa, but i think thats too good to be true.

therokerroar

Vanbis wrote: »

Whatever they paid they got a absolute bargin and Rafa and everyone knows that and they could easly get £70M if they wanted.

That figure of £70m is laughable.

If a club came in with an offer between £40m-£50m, Liverpool's current owners would snap the hands off the club that made the offer.

People can't say, 'Oh we can't afford to sack Rafa' or 'Oh we can't afford Mourinho' and then say they have the financial power to get £70m for one player.

Ridiculous.

Chucky the tree

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Yeah they made it in, but because England were given 3 automatic spots for the Champions League that year, they weren't seeded for the playoff draw. They got Villareal, who ended up narrowly missing out on the final that year. Fairly unlucky.

Are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure the reason they weren't seeded was because they had never done well enough in Europe in a long time so didn't have high enough seeding points to be seeded and it had nothing to do with Liverpool. IIRC it was some east european team who got shafted to make space for Liverpool.

NukaCola

In all seriousness...
22 games left...6 defeats as it stands(EPL).

How many more defeats can we take in one season before Rafa needs/has to go. I mean i like Rafa, think he's done a great job overall, brought us up to a better standard but realistically how many more defeats can he get away with.
2/3 or will it need 6/7 before people lose all faith? Is he fighting to stay in a job at this point?

therokerroar

therokerroar wrote: »

That figure of £70m is laughable.

If a club came in with an offer between £40m-£50m, Liverpool's current owners would snap the hands off the club that made the offer.

People can't say, 'Oh we can't afford to sack Rafa' or 'Oh we can't afford Mourinho' and then say they have the financial power to get £70m for one player.

Ridiculous.

A few clubs came in with massive offers in the summer and there were no hands snapped off.

Ridiculous !!

Headshot

therokerroar wrote: »

That figure of £70m is laughable.

If a club came in with an offer between £40m-£50m, Liverpool's current owners would snap the hands off the club that made the offer.

People can't say, 'Oh we can't afford to sack Rafa' or 'Oh we can't afford Mourinho' and then say they have the financial power to get £70m for one player.

Ridiculous.

didnt liverpool turn down an offer from another club for Torres during the summer ?
(possibly city)

jank

What the problem here is that Liverpool fans have invested so much time and energy in their defense of Rafa that its almost second nature no matter how poor the results. They see an attack on Rafa as people having a go at the club so they feel compelled to defend him. Even when guys like Souness a Liverpool legend who gave his blood and sweat to the club comes out against the current boss he is labeled a grumpy old fart by the arm chair supports. This is when you know that the defense of Rafa is becoming silly.

IMO he is dead man walking and will be shocked if he is there next season. If they fall out of the top four then all bets are off to what will happen to the club.

Mr Alan

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Ah right, ONE transfer which makes only £6.5million difference? Sure that could be the difference between Liverpool signing Andrea Dossena or not!

Seriously though, you could have picked a better example. A lot of people find it hard to stomach the official line that it was 20 considering a lot of other clubs (United included) were willing to pay more at the time.

him telling athletico he wouldnt go anywhere else kind of forced their hand.

Warper wrote: »

LOL - I think that is heavily swayed purely in the value of Torres. Put it like this if Liverpool lost Torres then look at their squad and you see N'Gog or Voronin up front. It is a squad game and that is why it is always Utd or Chelsea winning the PL. Take out Lampard/Drogba out of Chelsea and they would still perform, same as Rooney/Giggs.

Reina-6m, wat would he be worth now? 30?

Mascherano-17m, worth 30m plus now.

Agger-worth at least twice wat we paid for him.

Kuyt-again, twice wat we paid

Benayoun-maybe 4 times wat we paid?

Insua-at least 5 times wat we paid? probably more.

i could go on.

therokerroar

rarnes1 wrote: »

A few clubs came in with massive offers in the summer and there were no hands snapped off.

Ridiculous !!

Who/What is your source to back up that claim?

That's all 'Paper Talk' and specualtion, nothing factual.

Those reports of these 'massive offers' are about as credible as Liverpool's title challenge this season.

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

him telling athletico he wouldnt go anywhere else kind of forced their hand.

well are there any other sizeable errors then to account for the 20 million discrepancy between the sites figures and your own?

Mr Alan

jank wrote: »

What the problem here is that Liverpool fans have invested so much time and energy in their defense of Rafa that its almost second nature no matter how poor the results. They see an attack on Rafa as people having a go at the club so they feel compelled to defend him. Even when guys like Souness a Liverpool legend who gave his blood and sweat to the club comes out against the current boss he is labeled a grumpy old fart by the arm chair supports. This is when you know that the defense of Rafa is becoming silly.

i really expect more from Arsenal fans. 2 of the last 3 years your club has been in the same situation as us, Villas unbelievable self destruction & a dodgy lasagne played a massive part in yous gettin into the CL.

but faith was shown to your manager, and now, perhaps, its starting to pay off.

yet, when you see Liverpool in the same boat, your thinking its daft not to sack him. strange.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

him telling athletico he wouldnt go anywhere else kind of forced their hand.



Reina-6m, wat would he be worth now? 30?

Mascherano-17m, worth 30m plus now.

Agger-worth at least twice wat we paid for him.

Kuyt-again, twice wat we paid

Benayoun-maybe 4 times wat we paid?

Insua-at least 5 times wat we paid? probably more.

i could go on.

Jesus AL your are heading to the £200 milion make with your valuations of a handful of Players yet the Sheik though the whole club was overpriced at £300 million, something doesn't add up and given the history I'd imagine it's your figures.:P

Headshot

therokerroar wrote: »

Who/What is your source to back up that claim?

That's all 'Paper Talk' and specualtion, nothing factual.

Those reports of these 'massive offers' are about as credible as Liverpool's title challenge this season.

I thought benitez said somthing about an offer which was declined

I could be mistaken and im too lazy to google,(kinda reminds me of some body else)

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Jesus AL your are heading to the £200 milion make with your valuations of a handful of Players yet the Sheik though the whole club was overpriced at £300 million, something doesn't add up and given the history I'd imagine it's your figures.:P

in fairness, wat valuations are wrong?:P

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

in fairness, wat valuations are wrong?:P

In fairness AL probably all of them.

therokerroar

therokerroar wrote: »

Who/What is your source to back up that claim?

That's all 'Paper Talk' and specualtion, nothing factual.

Those reports of these 'massive offers' are about as credible as Liverpool's title challenge this season.

Knock yourself out

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_5426599,00.html

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/09/28/1528264/rafa-benitez-liverpool-striker-fernando-torres-not-for-sale

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

In fairness AL probably all of them.

go on then- Reina,Mascherano,Agger,Insua,Kuyt,Benayoun-wat ya reckon they're worth?

rossie1977

jank wrote: »

What the problem here is that Liverpool fans have invested so much time and energy in their defense of Rafa that its almost second nature no matter how poor the results. They see an attack on Rafa as people having a go at the club so they feel compelled to defend him. Even when guys like Souness a Liverpool legend who gave his blood and sweat to the club comes out against the current boss he is labeled a grumpy old fart by the arm chair supports. This is when you know that the defense of Rafa is becoming silly.

so you don't believe in supporting your manager when things are going wrong?? this is a time the manager really needs support, liverpool fans have always given their managers time

of course liverpool fans take what graeme souness says with a pinch of salt, can you blame them?? this is a guy after all whose 3 years at liverpool were a complete disaster despite inheriting a team that were league champions when he took over, its like charlie manson appearing on the 6 o'clock news and telling everyone how to live a peaceful carefree life........i doubt many would listen to him either

Warper

Mr Alan wrote: »

go on then- Reina,Mascherano,Agger,Insua,Kuyt,Benayoun-wat ya reckon they're worth?

Around 8th place

Mr Alan

some Everton fans really must be finding this a great distraction from their relegation battle.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

go on then- Reina,Mascherano,Agger,Insua,Kuyt,Benayoun-wat ya reckon they're worth?

They are worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay when they go on the market , that would not be multiples of what ye paid for them.

Mr Alan

i think you are seriously wrong.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think you are seriously wrong.

:eek:


I can live with that.;)

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

i really expect more from Arsenal fans. 2 of the last 3 years your club has been in the same situation as us, Villas unbelievable self destruction & a dodgy lasagne played a massive part in yous gettin into the CL.

but faith was shown to your manager, and now, perhaps, its starting to pay off.

yet, when you see Liverpool in the same boat, your thinking its daft not to sack him. strange.

You are missing the point. Wenger has proven he can build a title winning team for next to nothing and in the last 4-5 years his net spend has made Arsenal a profit. Compared to rafa who spends 17 million on a right back. Would Arsenal ever spend that money on a right back? You know the answer and you have to wonder why.

Rafa is not a bad manager but he is not a title winning manager. He has brought the club as far as he can.


Edit: I didnt even mention the fact that Arsenal are in a brand new 60,000 seater stadium where every year is a year they become more self relient. Where as Liverpool as a club are running to stand still. Mind thats not rafas fault but just making the point that liverpool would much rather the situation that Arsenal are in than their own club.

jank

rossie1977 wrote: »

so you don't believe in supporting your manager when things are going wrong?? this is a time the manager really needs support, liverpool fans have always given their managers time

Maybe too much time, its 19 years and ticking.... maybe thats the problem!

rossie1977 wrote: »

of course liverpool fans take what graeme souness says with a pinch of salt, can you blame them?? this is a guy after all whose 3 years at liverpool were a complete disaster despite inheriting a team that were league champions when he took over, its like charlie manson appearing on the 6 o'clock news and telling everyone how to live a peaceful carefree life........i doubt many would listen to him either

Well anyone remembers the now infamous press conference by rafa last year and blew his title hopes? Managers sometimes do stupid things.

Mr Alan

Rafa has won league titles, as well as the Champions League, something Wenger has never won at any team.

the difference between Arsenals & Liverpools net spend is quite comfortably covered by the huges wages Arsenal pay to attract the best young talent around.

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa has won league titles, as well as the Champions League, something Wenger has never won at any team.

England isnt spain.
It always comes down to the CL doesnt it. Forrest fans were having the same arguement about Brian Clough and looked where that led.

Mr Alan wrote: »

the difference between Arsenals & Liverpools net spend is quite comfortably covered by the huges wages Arsenal pay to attract the best young talent around.

Well seeing as this is a strategy that works why doesnt Rafa do the same?:p

Mr Alan

works?

what have Arsenal won in the last few years?

saltie

Mr Alan wrote: »

some Everton fans really must be finding this a great distraction from their relegation battle.

tbh yes Our terrible season so far is nothing compared to liverpools implosion. In all fairness take a look at liverpools strikers, eh oh wait striker... oh and ngog. The loss of alonso aswell, what a terrible move by the spanish master :rolleyes:

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

the difference between Arsenals & Liverpools net spend is quite comfortably covered by the huges wages Arsenal pay to attract the best young talent around.

Not a wise move on the same day that it's been revealed that Glen Johnson is on £139 000 per week. I doubt any of Arsenals defenders are on anywhere near that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1209134/REVEALED-Liverpool-handed-Glen-Johnson-139-000-week-deal-beat-competition-Chelsea.html

Mr Alan

that story was out in August & is absolute nonsense.

iregk

Mr Alan wrote: »

works?

what have Arsenal won in the last few years?

in the last 5 years arsenal have won a league title (2004) and an fa cup

in the last 5 years liverpool have won a champions league and an fa cup

pretty much on par however at a faction of the cost for the arsenal!

Ardent

Someone's living in perpetual denial!

Mr Alan

Rafa wasnt at Liverpool when Wenger last won the league.

So its a CL & FA Cup versus an FA Cup.

and although the transfer totals are poles apart, so are the wages between the two with Arsenal spending 20m a season more.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

that story was out in August & is absolute nonsense.

Ah right so, sorry for posting it.



How much is he on a week?

saltie

saltie wrote: »

In all fairness take a look at liverpools strikers,

I know. That Torres is an overrated useless waste of money. I can't believe we wasted £20m on him.

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

Ah right so, sorry for posting it.



How much is he on a week?

2 billion

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Ah right so, sorry for posting it.



How much is he on a week?

not sure tbh.

certainly not considerably more than Torres (£110k) & slightly more than Gerrard (£130k) like the ridiulous article you posted suggests.

Mr Alan

Souness was an awful awful awful awful awful manager for Liverpool.

therokerroar

rarnes1 wrote: »

Knock yourself out

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_5426599,00.html

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/09/28/1528264/rafa-benitez-liverpool-striker-fernando-torres-not-for-sale

Take this scenario:

Clubs owners are struggling financially.

Fans grow worried.

Club reveal they have received and rejected 'offers' for star player.

Fans now think the cash worries aren't as bad as made out.

Fans and owners are now happy as is the manager who is given a 5 year contract.

Some people really don't understand how football clubs run, not all is black and white mate.