Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

works?

what have Arsenal won in the last few years?

Champions League qualification.

Bandit12

Mr Alan wrote: »

Souness was an awful awful awful awful awful manager for Liverpool.

And that's being kind on him. He ruined the club to the extent we have never recovered.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

not sure tbh.

certainly not considerably more than Torres (£110k) & slightly more than Gerrard (£130k) like the ridiulous article you posted suggests.

The way you rubbished the article I though you actually knew the figure.

I'd believe the article after all they were competing with Chelsea for his signature so it's not really surprising that they would be paying well over the odds for him.

Mr Alan

so if we achieve Champions League qualifcation this season (which i think we will), all is well.

phew.

jank, if Rafa hadnt won the CL, which Wenger has never, you joke would be a little funnier.

Anthony16

Anthony16 wrote: »

after today,yes they are finished.Rafa is a disrespectul,condescending spanish waiter.Making a jibe at such a great liverpool player like souness was awful.That man deserves the respect of everyone associated with the club after what he done for them.Rafa should look at his own record-in domestic competition he has only won an fa cup,which is nowhere near good enough

I think you are talking about a different Rafa Benitez

monkey9 wrote: »

No he isn't. He's a professional football manager

.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

The way you rubbished the article I though you actually knew the figure.

I'd believe the article after all they were competing with Chelsea for his signature so it's not really surprising that they would be paying well over the odds for him.

the clubs priority for quite some time has been to cut the wage bill.

are you really saying you think Glen Johnson has a higher wage than Torres & Gerrard?

gotta admit, you seem to want to believe whatever you can in order to help prove the point you wanna make, even when its ridiculous.

and more importantly, even if Johnson was earnng that massive money, which he definately isnt-my original point would still stand.

ilovelamp2000

Mr Alan wrote: »

the clubs priority for quite some time has been to cut the wage bill.

are you really saying you think Glen Johnson has a higher wage than Torres & Gerrard?

gotta admit, you seem to want to believe whatever you can in order to help prove the point you wanna make, even when its ridiculous.

and more importantly, even if Johnson was earnng that massive money, which he definately isnt-my original point would still stand.

How much is Johnson earning ?

Mr Alan

i'd imagine he is probably on the second tier on wages at the club, same as the likes of Kuyt/Reina/Yossi etc.

ilovelamp2000

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd imagine he is probably on the second tier on wages at the club, same as the likes of Kuyt/Reina/Yossi etc.

How much is that ?

The lowest figure reported in the media is 4m a year, which works out at 80k a week or thereabouts.

Mr Alan

probably about that alright.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

the clubs priority for quite some time has been to cut the wage bill.

are you really saying you think Glen Johnson has a higher wage than Torres & Gerrard?

gotta admit, you seem to want to believe whatever you can in order to help prove the point you wanna make, even when its ridiculous.

and more importantly, even if Johnson was earnng that massive money, which he definately isnt-my original point would still stand.

It's not a matter of wanting to believe anything, I do believe the story for the reason stated, ie they were competing with Chelsea for his signature and nobody has produced a more relaible source with different figues yet though Rarnes1 did give a figure of £2 billion, I didn't believe that one.

Fuhrer

Mr Alan wrote: »

probably about that alright.

If you wish hard enough maybe it'll be true!

parker kent

rarnes1 wrote: »

I know. That Torres is an overrated useless waste of money. I can't believe we wasted £20m on him.

The rest of his sentence that was left out of your quote showed that Torres was not being called useless. The point (or fact!) is valid, Liverpool only have one good striker.

The Muppet

Rosco1982 wrote: »

How much is Johnson earning ?

£139 000 a week according to this article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1209134/REVEALED-Liverpool-handed-Glen-Johnson-139-000-week-deal-beat-competition-Chelsea.html

Fuhrer

parker kent wrote: »

Liverpool only have one good striker.

And a lot of the time, not even that.

Vanbis

Mr Alan wrote: »

they have Torres down as 26.5m.

he cost 20m according to the liverpool echo & the bbc, the two most relible sources of LFC transfers.

thats a 6.5m difference on one transfer.

You seem to more about Liverpools finances then everyone else but if you get your information from these two then you must be right because they always get it right :rolleyes:

Mr Alan wrote: »

the clubs priority for quite some time has been to cut the wage bill.

are you really saying you think Glen Johnson has a higher wage than Torres & Gerrard?

and more importantly, even if Johnson was earnng that massive money, which he definately isnt-my original point would still stand.

Like the Echo & BBC they all get their information from the same sources so i wouldn't dismiss the article about about Glen Johnson earning £139,000 p/w but you then again i'm sure you have your own reliable source

Anthony16

rarnes1 wrote: »

I think you are talking about a different Rafa Benitez




.

Dont you ever hear the united fans calling him a "fat spanish waiter".He looks like one.Pig headed and ignorant.His antics toward alkardyce last season were awful too.He ended up with egg on his face last season anyway after his "facts" about fergie.And he called everton a "small club".
I bet sir alex has the smile of a cheshire cat now seeing as bullish rafas team is in meltdown

PHB

Mr Alan wrote: »

the difference between Arsenals & Liverpools net spend is quite comfortably covered by the huges wages Arsenal pay to attract the best young talent around.

That can't be possibly be true surely.

According to transfer league, the difference between them in net spend is just under 140 million, about 20 million or so a league. Are you suggesting that Arsenals wage bill is 20 million more a year than Liverpools, an exta 380,000 grand a week? Links please.

Fuhrer

Staggeringly wrong as well I would imagine.


Didnt Adebayor have his head turned because Arsenal refused to break their wage limits for him?

monkey9

Anthony16 wrote: »

Dont you ever hear the united fans calling him a "fat spanish waiter".He looks like one.Pig headed and ignorant.His antics toward alkardyce last season were awful too.He ended up with egg on his face last season anyway after his "facts" about fergie.And he called everton a "small club".
I bet sir alex has the smile of a cheshire cat now seeing as bullish rafas team is in meltdown

But he isn't a waiter. He a football manager.

What antics towards Allardyce? Are you talking about when we scored against Blackburn and he had a private joke with his players so Allardyce and Ferguson got together and told lies about him.

Facts about Ferguson were correct.

Ferguson called Man City a smaller club too.

Now why don't you head back over to your team's thread and discuss where it went wrong for your team against Villa yesterday

ilovelamp2000

Anthony16 wrote: »

Dont you ever hear the united fans calling him a "fat spanish waiter".He looks like one.Pig headed and ignorant.His antics toward alkardyce last season were awful too.He ended up with egg on his face last season anyway after his "facts" about fergie.And he called everton a "small club".
I bet sir alex has the smile of a cheshire cat now seeing as bullish rafas team is in meltdown

I'm sorry.

Now I'm one of the few Liverpool fans who don't like Rafa and think he is majorly to blame for the situation we find ourselves in.

However the nonsense you've posted above I won't stand for. His "treatment" of Fat Sam was nothing of the sort. He was making a gesture to the players that ignored his instructions for the set piece, from which they scored a goal.

It was shown to be a ruse between Fergie and Sam to start a media campaign against Rafa. You've fallen for it. Well done.

*pats Anthony on the head*

K-9

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure the reason they weren't seeded was because they had never done well enough in Europe in a long time so didn't have high enough seeding points to be seeded and it had nothing to do with Liverpool. IIRC it was some east european team who got shafted to make space for Liverpool.

Nope, TNS from Wales offered a match to give up their place. Mystery solved. We had to qualify from that, involved 5 games or so to get to the group stage.

Mr Alan wrote: »

him telling athletico he wouldnt go anywhere else kind of forced their hand.



Reina-6m, wat would he be worth now? 30?

Mascherano-17m, worth 30m plus now.

Agger-worth at least twice wat we paid for him.

Kuyt-again, twice wat we paid

Benayoun-maybe 4 times wat we paid?

Insua-at least 5 times wat we paid? probably more.

i could go on.

Jaysus Alan, you made a good point about the squad being worth twice what he paid, but a goalkeeper €30 Million?

Kuyt, €22 Million or so?

Benny the same?

jank wrote: »

You are missing the point. Wenger has proven he can build a title winning team for next to nothing and in the last 4-5 years his net spend has made Arsenal a profit. Compared to rafa who spends 17 million on a right back. Would Arsenal ever spend that money on a right back? You know the answer and you have to wonder why.

Rafa is not a bad manager but he is not a title winning manager. He has brought the club as far as he can.


Edit: I didnt even mention the fact that Arsenal are in a brand new 60,000 seater stadium where every year is a year they become more self relient. Where as Liverpool as a club are running to stand still. Mind thats not rafas fault but just making the point that liverpool would much rather the situation that Arsenal are in than their own club.

Different times. The point is Wenger has hardly been a raging success in the last 4/5 years, same as Rafa.

Rafa was close last year and now he's being written off.

saltie wrote: »

tbh yes Our terrible season so far is nothing compared to liverpools implosion. In all fairness take a look at liverpools strikers, eh oh wait striker... oh and ngog. The loss of alonso aswell, what a terrible move by the spanish master :rolleyes:

Explain further and how it affects the back up for Torres?

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

That can't be possibly be true surely.

According to transfer league, the difference between them in net spend is just under 140 million, about 20 million or so a league. Are you suggesting that Arsenals wage bill is 20 million more a year than Liverpools, an exta 380,000 grand a week? Links please.

just over 20m.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/table/2009/jun/03/premier-league-turnover-wages-debt

jesus_thats_gre

The comparisons with Wenger's net spend always intrigues me.. If Rafa's hand was forced, in same way that Wenger's has been, to sell a star player every year or two, for whatever reason, he too would probably have a negative net spend over the past 5 years.

Villain

I love how people say one media source is close to the club and what they say must be true to support their argument yet whenever another media source says something that doesn't support their argument it couldn't be true......in all fairness.

Rafa is a European manager and one of the best if not the best but he will never win the PL, the funy thing is I said that 3 years ago and every year since, Pool fans just seem to have invested so much support in Rafa that they can't back down. Liverpool need to be doing well on the pitch because off it they are in serious trouble. Utd have massive massive debts but as long as they stay competing at the top with a top class stadium they will be ok off the pitch.

PHB

Mr Alan wrote: »

just over 20m.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/table/2009/jun/03/premier-league-turnover-wages-debt

That's unbelievable! Does anyone know where he got the stats from? It's not that I dont buy it but I just can't see where the wages are going in the Arsenal squad. So many young players and young players are much cheaper in wage terms.

Mr Alan

how do you think he gets all these young players to be happy to get nowhere near the first team for a period when they could be getting first team ball elsewhere in the top league? Ramsay & the like.

players are earning good premier league wages long before they get near the first team. thats my understanding of it.

i told you when we were on the piss at the SF beers! good to know you were listening!

ilovelamp2000

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The comparisons with Wenger's net spend always intrigues me.. If Rafa's hand was forced, in same way that Wenger's has been, to sell a star player every year or two, for whatever reason, he too would probably have a negative net spend over the past 5 years.

The difference being that it's highly unlikely that Rafa would be able to put out a competitive team if he was in the same position as Wenger when it comes to net spends.

Wenger is a much more resourceful manager and the job he's done in keeping Arsenal in the top four with a negative net spend is exceptional.

Anthony16

monkey9 wrote: »

But he isn't a waiter. He a football manager.

What antics towards Allardyce? Are you talking about when we scored against Blackburn and he had a private joke with his players so Allardyce and Ferguson got together and told lies about him.

Facts about Ferguson were correct.

Ferguson called Man City a smaller club too.

Now why don't you head back over to your team's thread and discuss where it went wrong for your team against Villa yesterday

Why dont u remain at this thread and discuss how ur team have won only 3 of the last 15,are 10 points behind utd,in 7th position,out of the champions league and title race

Anthony16

Rosco1982 wrote: »

I'm sorry.

Now I'm one of the few Liverpool fans who don't like Rafa and think he is majorly to blame for the situation we find ourselves in.

However the nonsense you've posted above I won't stand for. His "treatment" of Fat Sam was nothing of the sort. He was making a gesture to the players that ignored his instructions for the set piece, from which they scored a goal.

It was shown to be a ruse between Fergie and Sam to start a media campaign against Rafa. You've fallen for it. Well done.

*pats Anthony on the head*

It was disgraceful from rafa towards a respected manager like sam.
Im not goin to win any arguments here against pool fans so im off

ilovelamp2000

Anthony16 wrote: »

It was disgraceful from rafa towards a respected manager like sam.
Im not goin to win any arguments here against pool fans so im off

You're not going to win your argument, simply because you're wrong.

Nothing to do with who you're arguing against.

Glico Man

Anthony16 wrote: »

It was disgraceful from rafa towards a respected manager like sam.
Im not goin to win any arguments here against pool fans so im off

Watch the video and see for yourself what happened instead of being brainwashed by Fergie

You brought up the FACT Rafa called Everton a small club but didn't acknowledge the FACT that Fergie called Man City the same thing

As I said when Fergie said that

aaronh007 wrote:

Hypocrisy, thy name is you

jank

Rosco1982 wrote: »

How much is that ?

The lowest figure reported in the media is 4m a year, which works out at 80k a week or thereabouts.

Agreed, Mr Alan, if you are going to rubbish someones opinions or fact than you should post some facts off your own not opinion.

Mr Alan

jank wrote: »

Agreed, Mr Alan, if you are going to rubbish someones opinions or fact than you should post some facts off your own not opinion.

I posted up the wages of the two top earners at the club. Do you really think that Glen Johnson, as good as he is, is earning more than Torres and Gerrard?

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

just over 20m.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/table/2009/jun/03/premier-league-turnover-wages-debt

Can I ask why the wages and earnings figures for Liverpool in that article has (est) beside them which I assume stands for estimate yet none of the other clubs are listed as estimates?

If they are only estimates I would like to see the criteria used to formulate the figures before placing any trust in their accuracy.

ilovelamp2000

The Muppet wrote: »

Can I ask why the wages and earnings figures for Liverpool in that article has (est) beside them which I assume stands for estimate yet none of the other clubs are listed as estimates?

If they are only estimates I would like to see the criteria used to formulate the figures before placing any trust in their accuracy.

I've seen figures that have our wage bill at that time at 90m.

FWIW - nobody does more research for their stories than David Conn. He is the best to read when it comes to the financial side of football, and if I'm not mistaken he's the current sports journalist of the year in the UK mainly because of a series of excellent articles he wrote on Hillsborough.

jesus_thats_gre

Rosco1982 wrote: »

The difference being that it's highly unlikely that Rafa would be able to put out a competitive team if he was in the same position as Wenger when it comes to net spends.

Wenger is a much more resourceful manager and the job he's done in keeping Arsenal in the top four with a negative net spend is exceptional.

If Wenger was at Arsenal for 5 season, it is unlikely that he too would be able to put out a competitive side.

This is why the comparisons are somewhat silly. You cannot compare the positions the two managers are in without considering that one is there 13+ years and the other is there 5. The youth policy the Wenger started only started coming to fruition 3 or 4 seasons ago when they moved into the Emirates. Sure the amount of young players that Liverpool have blooded in the past 6 months alone show that the desire is there to bring talent through. Give it another 4 or 5 years and I am nearly certain that Liverpool's net spend on players will be tiny.

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

I posted up the wages of the two top earners at the club. Do you really think that Glen Johnson, as good as he is, is earning more than Torres and Gerrard?

It doesnt matter what I think, what matters are the facts and you or nobody has been able to disprove the facts given.

jank

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

If Wenger was at Arsenal for 5 season, it is unlikely that he too would be able to put out a competitive side..

Instead he won the title 3 times.:D

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

This is why the comparisons are somewhat silly. You cannot compare the positions the two managers are in without considering that one is there 13+ years and the other is there 5. The youth policy the Wenger started only started coming to fruition 3 or 4 seasons ago when they moved into the Emirates. Sure the amount of young players that Liverpool have blooded in the past 6 months alone show that the desire is there to bring talent through. Give it another 4 or 5 years and I am nearly certain that Liverpool's net spend on players will be tiny.

Name a club apart from Arsenal that have successfully followed that model. I think you are being very ambitious to think that Liverpool wont need to spend much money in the future because of future talent coming through the ranks.
Every club has this ambition on paper but the reality is very much different.
Maybe with another manager but when Rafa spends 17 million on a good but not great right back then you know well that you are in trouble.

Also Wenger started the Youth Policy the day he became manager.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

Reina-6m, wat would he be worth now? 30?

Mascherano-17m, worth 30m plus now.

Agger-worth at least twice wat we paid for him.

Kuyt-again, twice wat we paid

Benayoun-maybe 4 times wat we paid?

Insua-at least 5 times wat we paid? probably more.

i could go on.

Fantasy stuff there to be quite frank.

What was Kuyt? 12m? You think we would get more than 20 for him?

Agger, who has chronic injuries, I would say more like 10m rather (cost 6.5m IIRC).

Benayoun was 5 wasn't he? 20m for him is thoroughly overestimating too.

I'd agree with Masch but only because Barca want him so badly by all accounts.

Reina, I think he is class and all but a goalkeeper of comparable quality was sole about a year ago to moneybags Man City for 8m.

Spiritoftheseventies

Interesting comment I heard on Radio yesterday and its very appropriate to overall content of this thread. Commentator made point that every monday, papers would post remarks that were for most part over the top. ie Chelsea win 5-0 and they are unbeatable and odds to win premiership.
Two weeks on and title race is wide open again.
So to this thread and ill try and nip this in bud. We can can not say for sure Liverpool are done until the end of the season. If we dont secure a champions league spot then yes our future spending power, a point to which jan molby alluded to on five live yesterday, is jeopardized.
But the fact is that Pool while far behind Chelsea and United (dont think we are that far behind Arsenal after yesterday) have it within themselves to get a decent run together and get the fourth spot.
Torres and Gerrard showed plenty yesterday but others were a bit poor. Yossi should have trekked back after giving the ball away for Arsenals winner.
So are Liverpool and Rafa done. Maybe in terms of winning league. But certainly not done.

Bandit12

bayviewclose wrote: »

Interesting comment I heard on Radio yesterday and its very appropriate to overall content of this thread. Commentator made point that every monday, papers would post remarks that were for most part over the top. ie Chelsea win 5-0 and they are unbeatable and odds to win premiership.
Two weeks on and title race is wide open again.
So to this thread and ill try and nip this in bud. We can can not say for sure Liverpool are done until the end of the season. If we dont secure a champions league spot then yes our future spending power, a point to which jan molby alluded to on five live yesterday, is jeopardized.
But the fact is that Pool while far behind Chelsea and United (dont think we are that far behind Arsenal after yesterday) have it within themselves to get a decent run together and get the fourth spot.
Torres and Gerrard showed plenty yesterday but others were a bit poor. Yossi should have trekked back after giving the ball away for Arsenals winner.
So are Liverpool and Rafa done. Maybe in terms of winning league. But certainly not done.

Down with this kind of thing

magma69

bayviewclose wrote: »

Interesting comment I heard on Radio yesterday and its very appropriate to overall content of this thread. Commentator made point that every monday, papers would post remarks that were for most part over the top. ie Chelsea win 5-0 and they are unbeatable and odds to win premiership.
Two weeks on and title race is wide open again.
So to this thread and ill try and nip this in bud. We can can not say for sure Liverpool are done until the end of the season. If we dont secure a champions league spot then yes our future spending power, a point to which jan molby alluded to on five live yesterday, is jeopardized.
But the fact is that Pool while far behind Chelsea and United (dont think we are that far behind Arsenal after yesterday) have it within themselves to get a decent run together and get the fourth spot.
Torres and Gerrard showed plenty yesterday but others were a bit poor. Yossi should have trekked back after giving the ball away for Arsenals winner.
So are Liverpool and Rafa done. Maybe in terms of winning league. But certainly not done.

I agree with most of your post. I do think they will get fourth spot but since when is only achieving Champions League football a success? Rafa needs to go as he is incapable of bringing Liverpool to the next level. The club is going backwards and needs a new approach. I would rather Liverpool spent the next transfer budget on getting rid of Rafa and bringing in someone world class like Hiddink or Mourinho (unlikely, i know).

Handsome Bob

noodler wrote: »

What was Kuyt? 12m? You think we would get more than 20 for him?

£9m.

iregk

Are we really going to go through all this crap every time Liverpool don't go out and put on a show of sublime football. 140 pages in and all we have is repetitive mind numbing bullsh*t that gets repeated with every bad result.

Handsome Bob

Reactionary drivel to be precise.

Le King

Mascherano would merely be cover, lacing Sergio Busquets boots in that Barcelona team.

To pay 30M for a player who 4/5 years older than Busquets is madness.

You won't get 30M for Mascherano.

cabra64

iregk wrote: »

Are we really going to go through all this crap every time Liverpool don't go out and put on a show of sublime football. 140 pages in and all we have is repetitive mind numbing bullsh*t that gets repeated with every bad result.

well 140 pages in and liverpool haven't improved over that time. in all honesty with liverpools claims that the next game is the start of the season is abit much. For me its rafa that must go. He seems to buy good players and ruin them with his and his coaches training methods. Plus when is the last time liverpool have actually "put on a show of sublime football"?

kippy

iregk wrote: »

Are we really going to go through all this crap every time Liverpool don't go out and put on a show of sublime football. 140 pages in and all we have is repetitive mind numbing bullsh*t that gets repeated with every bad result.

Well, if Liverpool did go out and put on a show of sublime football (heck, even if they went out and won ugly) this thread wouldnt be in existence now, would it?
Stuff is getting repeated because the results are getting repeated.
Every "season starts here" or "must win" game, thats doesnt get won is fuel for this thread.

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

him telling athletico he wouldnt go anywhere else kind of forced their hand.



Reina-6m, wat would he be worth now? 30?

Mascherano-17m, worth 30m plus now.

Agger-worth at least twice wat we paid for him.

Kuyt-again, twice wat we paid

Benayoun-maybe 4 times wat we paid?

Insua-at least 5 times wat we paid? probably more.

i could go on.

Jesus christ. I know Liverpool are going through a tough time, but drugs are not the answer.

Benayoun £20 million
Kuyt £20 million
Mascherano £30 million
Reina £30 million

Please, do go on, because im sure you've broken the collective hole of this forum from laughter, and f*ck it, its miserable weather outside so we could do with some more. Just go back and read that again to completely grasp how utterly f*cking ludicrous it is.