Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

kida

kippy wrote: »

Again, why are we still taking about squad value?

The far cheaper and inferior squad Rafa "inherited" was far more successful than this current crop.
Squad value is not what supporters demand.

too true - it means fVck all what players are worth - its how they play and what results that bring that matter and at the moment Liverpool are laying rubbish and the results reflect that.

Headshot

rossie1977 wrote: »

just out of interest what in your opinion are drogba and lampard worth (both 2 years older than gerrard)

Superb players but anything over 10m for them would be silly. Unless the owner sees the club as a play thing and doesnt care about money they'll pay way over the odds. A proper run club like arsenal wouldnt pay that for those players. Yes those players are great but if they did make the transfer there's possible sign on fee's and a long term contract. You could have a 31yr old on contract for 5 years. You may get a great 1st season out of them but after things slide.

Spiritoftheseventies

kida wrote: »

too true - it means fVck all what players are worth - its how they play and what results that bring that matter and at the moment Liverpool are laying rubbish and the results reflect that.

Just an idea but can we rename this thread "Are Liverpool (and Rafa) done yet" to reflect the longevity of this thread. And if thread is still up this time next season we can call it When will Liverpool and Rafa be done. Two years on we can call it "are Liverpools academy (and O'Neill) done

SlickRic

i know Al was smoking some of the 'good stuff' with his valuations of our players.

but now i've seen everything.

Gerrard is valued at 18m, in a world where Ibra went for 55m, Sheva for 30m, Berba for 30m and an almost 29 year old Gareth Barry for £16m in the last 6 months of his contract?

HS, you're normally quite reasoned with your points, especially lately, so i'll let this kind of slide.

but honestly, you can't really mean that?

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

100 million for Torres. Easily.

i'll assume that's a piss-take to annoy some utd fans.

£60m absolute maximum.

Jazzy

it literally looks like vultures in here trying to dismantle a corpse or something. no, rafa and liverppol arent 'done' and the only way to judge that will be at the end of the season i know you guys are all giddy and excited that liverpool have been utter sh1t so far this season but relax, we can talk about rafa's similarity to a restaurant steak in may

Ush1

rossie1977 wrote: »

considering Shevchenko was 30 when chelsea signed him for £30m in 2006

Ibrahimović is 28 and barca valued him at 55million+

18m for a 29 year old gerrard??

Yeah, alot of people learned from the Sheva transfer.

kida

Jazzy wrote: »

it literally looks like vultures in here trying to dismantle a corpse or something. no, rafa and liverppol arent 'done' and the only way to judge that will be at the end of the season i know you guys are all giddy and excited that liverpool have been utter sh1t so far this season but relax, we can talk about rafa's similarity to a restaurant steak in may

But how far off fourth place can you afford to fall? If gets to 10 points, not unrealistic given yoursa and Villas current form.

Another thing I have noticed lately is the lack of passion from the kop. They seem to accept the current position. There was no late push from them yesterday to spur on the team to get an equaliser.

kippy

Jazzy wrote: »

it literally looks like vultures in here trying to dismantle a corpse or something. no, rafa and liverppol arent 'done' and the only way to judge that will be at the end of the season i know you guys are all giddy and excited that liverpool have been utter sh1t so far this season but relax, we can talk about rafa's similarity to a restaurant steak in may

People are talking about this "end of season" all the time.
Lets judge them then......

Well,
They've just been dispatched from the CL, out of the Carling cup (no biggie but if you're gonna get excited about the Europa league, lets get excited about this) currently in seventh in the league.
Only realistic chances of silverware are FA cup and Europa league, and that's been since the end of November.

Yeah, sure this thread is a handy spot to come and look at where Liverpool are right now and perhaps some make snide remarks however as I mentioned earlier this thread wouldnt be in existence if there were no issues at the club.
I think the second post in the thread speaks about only being nine games in and it being too early to judge etc, however we're a good few more games in now and not a single smidgen has changed, things have gotten worse if anything.
While there may be "no shame" in losing to Arsenal, the games ye have lost points in of late and the games which have been lost in the CL have made a mockery of these players whose value is allegedly so high and whose weekly wages dwarf that of most of the teams they have succumbed to.

I fully agree that injuries and some level of bad luck have had their impact but am also aware enough to see that there are big issues at the club, not just with the owners, and these issues cannot be papered over by the discussion of squad value, net spend or apples and oranges.

noodler

I feel Gerrard's goals tally last season was seriously boosted by penalties, he has been poor this season and has more than his fair share of injuries.

At 29, performing poorly and a bit of an injury liability (although not as bad as Torres) I can't see more than 20m and even then there a marketing aspect to that figure.

K-9

mormank wrote: »

england had 2 automatic spots. liverpool were in the qualifiers. so much fail in this thread. people are literally making up things and trying to pass it as fact. muppet and the warper really showing the extent of their football knowledge here also...

Nope, we finished fifth. TNS offered us a play off for their spot.

Jazzy

didnt look like arsenal were going to come 4th last season around this time, they still did and pulled through. if liverpool go on a good run of games.. like they do every season.. then all of a sudden all the points in here will be moot. we'll get back up to 4th / 5th and be playing well and all of a sudden this thread will be back a few pages. a good xmas run is what we need and could amazingly happen we have some great players in our squad and despite how poor we have been we are more easily then not able to play ourselves out of this position.

kippy

Jazzy wrote: »

didnt look like arsenal were going to come 4th last season around this time, they still did and pulled through. if liverpool go on a good run of games.. like they do every season.. then all of a sudden all the points in here will be moot. we'll get back up to 4th / 5th and be playing well and all of a sudden this thread will be back a few pages. a good xmas run is what we need and could amazingly happen we have some great players in our squad and despite how poor we have been we are more easily then not able to play ourselves out of this position.

All the points in here will be moot if Liverpool finish in 4th?
You havent been able to play yerselves out of this position thus far, and while ye do have a relatively straightforward looking run of games over the Christmas is appears ye are never more than one or two injuries away from a bad run of games again.

Ye need a cash injection at the very least for the cracks to be filled in.

Jazzy

kippy wrote: »

thus far

key words

the cash injection that won't come?
the "YOU'RE A 2 MAN TEAM AND IF G&T ARE INJURED YOU ARE WORTHLESS" arguement
and yes, if we finish 4th the points in this thread will be moot

Spiritoftheseventies

noodler wrote: »

I feel Gerrard's goals tally last season was seriously boosted by penalties, he has been poor this season and has more than his fair share of injuries.

At 29, performing poorly and a bit of an injury liability (although not as bad as Torres) I can't see more than 20m and even then there a marketing aspect to that figure.

Think Gerrard has done very well in his last two matches. As for the valuation it doesn't matter. Just cant see him leaving Pool at this stage in this career. Think he is to be commended for showing loyalty to the club when Chelsea were after him two or three seasons ago. But its all about the negative with him at the moment with some posters. Give the guy a break.

kippy

Jazzy wrote: »

key words

the cash injection that won't come?
the "YOU'RE A 2 MAN TEAM AND IF G&T ARE INJURED YOU ARE WORTHLESS" arguement
and yes, if we finish 4th the points in this thread will be moot

Of course they are key words, they qualify what I am attempting to put across.

It's been fairly obvious this season that injuries to players in key positions seem to effect ye more than any other team this season. I know ye had injuries last season but this year ye cant seem to overcome them. You cant deny this, its reason for yer CL exit and league position.
I never said ye were a two man team, if anything this most recent spell has shown that there are far more important players in yer system than the two men most would believe to be the best in yer squad.

If ye finish fourth, this points in this thread wont be moot, ye'll still have the same underlying issues with finances and a manager whose team have gone backwards.
The whole year on year improvements argument goes out the window and Chelsea or Man U grow stronger while Man City and the other competitors for those top 4 positions dont go away.

Bounty Hunter

Honestly if i had to pick who would finish 4th and my life depended on my answer being right (wow what a bad day that'd be) id still pick Liverpool, they arent really that far off fourth place despite their terrible run and they now have their full team essentially fit and playing.

Its the fact that at just this early stage not even any of the real liverpool fanboys are even suggesting they are still in the title mix up is the real issue with Liverpool and since that isnt going to be talkked about all the focus is on the top 4 place and how they have been losing ground.

Personally i dont think Spurs will be consistant enough to get a top four spot and while I have high hopes and expectations for Villa and Citys potential development as top 4 challengers its only if Liverpools form continues will i start getting notions of CL football at Villa park next season, they have the experience and they can recover.... lets just hope they dont

CHD

Ush1 wrote: »

Yeah, alot of people learned from the Sheva transfer.

Like who? Try not look ridiculously stupid while explaining.

Dont be at yourself

It's clear Liverpool have some serious problems, and they won't be disguised by finishing fourth. However, the last few weeks has (hopefully) shown the most pronounced effects of our problems, and probably paint a bleaker picture of the club than is necessarily true.

Just as finishing fourth doesn't suddenly mean everything's fine and rosey, our current spell doesn't mean that it's all doom and gloom, either.

Jazzy

kippy wrote: »

You cant deny this, its reason for yer CL exit and league position.

yes i can. i actually watched the matches and saw how we played. our concentration levels were dire and we were amazingly sloppy on the ball. it reminded me more of the liverpool for 2004 then anything else. bumbling stupid errors and not keeping our head in the game, despite which players were on the pitch. we were never able to stretch lyon or fiorentina and use the width of the pitch and we were never given any space to use any creativity. we become a funnel in the final 3rd and end up going straight down the middle which becomes easy for defences to block and even if we do get through we are never in a scoring position because the ball will have been forced to a bad angle and it will then go out for a corner... which we never score from
money, boredrooms, citeh and co. are worries yes, but they are worries which liverpool football club can play themselves away from and thats why all the points will be moot because in football, if you play well and beat other football teams then the background noise is something you stop hearing

Ush1

CHD wrote: »

Like who? Try not look ridiculously stupid while explaining.

Trezeguets potential trip to Barca, Henrys trip to Barca, Anelka costing 15 mill, etc...

Try not to sound ridiculously stupid when asking a question.

Headshot

SlickRic wrote: »

i know Al was smoking some of the 'good stuff' with his valuations of our players.

but now i've seen everything.

Gerrard is valued at 18m, in a world where Ibra went for 55m, Sheva for 30m, Berba for 30m and an almost 29 year old Gareth Barry for £16m in the last 6 months of his contract?

HS, you're normally quite reasoned with your points, especially lately, so i'll let this kind of slide.

but honestly, you can't really mean that?

you know what slickRic

I dont mean it, I was being too generous with my estimate
15m sounds more like it

:-D

lol .of course I joke

kippy

Jazzy wrote: »

yes i can. i actually watched the matches and saw how we played. our concentration levels were dire and we were amazingly sloppy on the ball. it reminded me more of the liverpool for 2004 then anything else. bumbling stupid errors and not keeping our head in the game, despite which players were on the pitch. we were never able to stretch lyon or fiorentina and use the width of the pitch and we were never given any space to use any creativity. we become a funnel in the final 3rd and end up going straight down the middle which becomes easy for defences to block and even if we do get through we are never in a scoring position because the ball will have been forced to a bad angle and it will then go out for a corner... which we never score from
money, boredrooms, citeh and co. are worries yes, but they are worries which liverpool football club can play themselves away from and thats why all the points will be moot because in football, if you play well and beat other football teams then the background noise is something you stop hearing

So injuries have had no impact on your season thus far? That delusional, of course they have. Here I am making excuses for ye and your not helping me one bit.
So its just that you're "high value players on paper" weren't actually that good?
All the points in here WONT be moot, as I said, the same underlying issues will be there.
Ye couldnt beat the fourth best team in Italy and the second best team in France in 4 games this season, never mind who ye've dropped points to in the PL, and you believe it was being slopping on the ball and low concentration levels that cause this............
It may have been, but what was the cause of this. Rafa has been at the club five years and almost all players there are his, if lack of concentration and sloppiness on the ball are the result of that management, good luck, those moot points wont dissappear with a 4th place position.

CHD

Ush1 wrote: »

Trezeguets potential trip to Barca, Henrys trip to Barca, Anelka costing 15 mill, etc...

Try not to sound ridiculously stupid when asking a question.

Well done. You failed like I knew you would.

Ush1

CHD wrote: »

Well done. You failed like I knew you would.

lulz
How exactly? Try not to sound ridiculously blah blah blah...:rolleyes:

Spiritoftheseventies

SlickRic wrote: »

i'll assume that's a piss-take to annoy some utd fans.

£60m absolute maximum.

Wouldn't waste my time annoying them. No i think 100 million a good valuation. He will get better but Spanish manager should have used him more sparingly in this summer confederations cup. Would have been come back fresher but instead he hasn't had proper break now for three seasons.

Jazzy

kippy wrote: »

So injuries have had no impact on your season thus far? That delusional, of course they have. Here I am making excuses for ye and your not helping me one bit.

of course they have..... i thought that was obvious anyway, hence why i didnt bother mentioning.

"and you believe it was being slopping on the ball and low concentration levels that cause this"

yeah, pretty much. good few other things but they are the 2 biggest problems. lack of width being the other biggest problem. ya see, the problems on the pitch are actually very simple. i know ppl dont like them being simple because then they couldnt write big long paragraphs about how bad LFC are and the papers and media would have nothing to do but ya know, bitch gotta make her money and all.

the boredroom stuff and all the other factors have been going on for ages. ppl here want to make liverpool out to be a club with a rotten foundation and the whole thing is going to cave in on itself within a year or so. and if we admit that which you seem to want us to, then its a-ok and we can redeem ourselves or something equally daft. but theres the keyword - 'want'. its what opposition fans and the media want, not what is. thats why all the points will be moot, like it or not

CHD

Ush1 wrote: »

lulz
How exactly? Try not to sound ridiculously blah blah blah...:rolleyes:

Show me how your examples prove there was a lesson learned from the Sheva transfer.

Ush1

CHD wrote: »

Show me how your examples prove there was a lesson learned from the Sheva transfer.

Wow wow, I thought I failed?:)

Spiritoftheseventies

Jazzy wrote: »

the boredroom stuff and all the other factors have been going on for ages. ppl here want to make liverpool out to be a club with a rotten foundation and the whole thing is going to cave in on itself within a year or so. and if we admit that which you seem to want us to, then its a-ok and we can redeem ourselves or something equally daft. but theres the keyword - 'want'. its what opposition fans and the media want, not what is. thats why all the points will be moot, like it or not

Bored room or board room?

CHD

Ush1 wrote: »

Wow wow, I thought I failed?:)

So you admit you failed or admit you were talking shít?

therokerroar

bayviewclose wrote: »

100 million for Torres. Easily.

Are you on crack?

event

rossie1977 wrote: »

considering Shevchenko was 30 when chelsea signed him for £30m in 2006

Ibrahimović is 28 and barca valued him at 55million+

18m for a 29 year old gerrard??

thats a massive misconception

at the time, they probably considered eto'o worth minus value

they were delighted that they could find a club to take eto'o off them

Spiritoftheseventies

therokerroar wrote: »

Are you on crack?

Would like to say Im a voice in the wilderness. But others seem to be in agreement with me. The money is there.

http://forums.skysports.com/viewtopic.aspx?s=1&b=2&c=2&f=20&t=99894&p=1

Ush1

CHD wrote: »

So you admit you failed or admit you were talking shít?

No I confess you were talking shít.

event

well he's not as good a player as ronaldo and he's been quite injury prone

not a chance is he worth £100m

Kess73

What is this thread actually about?

Bounty Hunter

Kess73 wrote: »

What is this thread actually about?

its about 2,000 posts longer than it should be :pac:

Spiritoftheseventies

event wrote: »

well he's not as good a player as ronaldo and he's been quite injury prone

not a chance is he worth £100m

Better than Ronaldo. Scored in a European Championship final. Behave

CHD

bayviewclose wrote: »

Better than Ronaldo. Scored in a European Championship final. Behave

Drogba is better tbf.

kippy

Jazzy wrote: »

of course they have..... i thought that was obvious anyway, hence why i didnt bother mentioning.

"and you believe it was being slopping on the ball and low concentration levels that cause this"

yeah, pretty much. good few other things but they are the 2 biggest problems. lack of width being the other biggest problem. ya see, the problems on the pitch are actually very simple. i know ppl dont like them being simple because then they couldnt write big long paragraphs about how bad LFC are and the papers and media would have nothing to do but ya know, bitch gotta make her money and all.

the boredroom stuff and all the other factors have been going on for ages. ppl here want to make liverpool out to be a club with a rotten foundation and the whole thing is going to cave in on itself within a year or so. and if we admit that which you seem to want us to, then its a-ok and we can redeem ourselves or something equally daft. but theres the keyword - 'want'. its what opposition fans and the media want, not what is. thats why all the points will be moot, like it or not

You pretty much said the injuries werent the problem.......
So the problems on the pitch are very simple? Feck me, but surely if they are that simple yer manager who is paid extremely well to sort out said problems and yer players who are paid similar amounts should be able to sort them out fairly simply?

Is the fact that Liverpool cannot compete financially with their rivals moot?
Is the fact that Liverpool have been knocked out of the CL in the group stages against opposition that wasnt "world class" moot?
Is the fact that yer new stadium is now on hold moot?
Is the fact that yer club are a couple of hundred million in debt moot?
Will all those points be moot should ye get fourth?
No, they wont, but they'll have an impact on LFC for years to come.

event

bayviewclose wrote: »

Better than Ronaldo. Scored in a European Championship final. Behave

wow

if thats your input and how you define who is a better player, just wow

Spiritoftheseventies

CHD wrote: »

Drogba is better tbf.

Yes would agree Drogba is better than Torres at moment but his temperament a bit suspect. Torres always gives his all while Drogba gave nothing under Scolari last year. And wont even go into his antics after Barca game last season.

bigstar

bayviewclose wrote: »

Wouldn't waste my time annoying them. No i think 100 million a good valuation. He will get better but Spanish manager should have used him more sparingly in this summer confederations cup. Would have been come back fresher but instead he hasn't had proper break now for three seasons.

you cant seriously believe torres is worth 100 mil. he may be "worth" that to pool fans but he would never fetch that price. ronaldo went for less than that as officially the best player in the world.

my take on liverpool/benitez is that liverpool couldnt get a better manager but he wont ever get liverpool where you want unless he gets a lot of money. i think the best is behind him tbh, last seasons form was superb but i still think the quality of football is poor most of the time. you can up your game for big games but consistently beating samller teams is where you fall down. anytime i see liverpool play they remind of a better bolton tbh, very workmanlike but not that much quality and reliance on a couple of players for creativity.

Glico Man

Kess73 wrote: »

What is this thread actually about?

I asked that hours ago:o

Spiritoftheseventies

event wrote: »

wow

if thats your input and how you define who is a better player, just wow

Okay without dragging this into "who is the better player" thread (and its still torres), he doesn't go missing half the time, doesn't fall over half the time, doesn't sulk half the time etc. And if you think scoring in the final of the second biggest international tournament is no big deal than all i can say is WOW.

aidan24326

Kess73 wrote: »

What is this thread actually about?

A poor unfortunate poster by the name of mirwillbeback had the temerity to suggest Liverpool were in a bit of bother. This was back in October and his opinions didn't sit well with the Anfield faithful.

Cue indignation from The Kop.

The-Rigger wrote: »

I think you are talking out of the wrong orifice.

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Yeah, I reckon after an entire 9 games of the Premier League season it's safe to say they'll probably be relegated.

Bandit12 wrote: »

Yes yes they are done.:rolleyes:

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

They're just deflated at the moment. They'll bounce back.
Your theory is a load of hot air tbh.

Though it seems now mr mir was right.

Not a Liverpool fan, but I would lay alot of the blame for this on Benitez.

Spiritoftheseventies

aidan24326 wrote: »

A poor unfortunate poster by the name of mirwillbeback had the temerity to suggest Liverpool were in a bit of bother. This was back in October and his opinions didn't sit well with the Anfield faithful.

Cue indignation from The Kop.









Though it seems now mr mir was right.

Not a Liverpool fan, but I would lay alot of the blame for this on Benitez.

Mr Mir a visionary of our times. who could have foreseen a team that were struggling would struggle. Inspired thinking

aidan24326

bayviewclose wrote: »

Mr Mir a visionary of our times. who could have foreseen a team that were struggling would struggle. Inspired thinking

Indeed. But if it was so obvious why were his comments met with rolleyes all over the place? Some Liverpool fans obvioulsy thought their loss of form was just a blip, when clearly this is a team going nowhere.

Jazzy

kippy wrote: »

You pretty much said the injuries werent the problem.......
So the problems on the pitch are very simple? Feck me, but surely if they are that simple yer manager who is paid extremely well to sort out said problems and yer players who are paid similar amounts should be able to sort them out fairly simply?

yeah, i find it incredible that they havent been sorted tbh. we have been playing too narrow for years and the one season we didnt (last year) we came 2nd in the league. our biggest injury problem for me this year has been reira, but dont let other ppl hear me say that.

kippy wrote:

Is the fact that Liverpool cannot compete financially with their rivals moot?
Is the fact that Liverpool have been knocked out of the CL in the group stages against opposition that wasnt "world class" moot?
Is the fact that yer new stadium is now on hold moot?
Is the fact that yer club are a couple of hundred million in debt moot?
Will all those points be moot should ye get fourth?
No, they wont, but they'll have an impact on LFC for years to come.

loads of clubs are in tons of debt. nothing new there. in fact there is nothing really new in your list at all. yes the CL exit was extremely disappointing and we went out with a whimper, but c'est la vie. we have to prove we can do it next year by qualifying.
we havent been able to compete financially with our biggest rivals for years either. (que the accounting wizards at Utd. Inc. to show up with their spreadsheets). we havent been able to buy big players until only recently. our biggest buy ever in 2004 was Cisse at 14m. Utd's was Rio at 29m, chelski had a whole rake of players in the 20m+ debt for the next few years. arsenal were the only ones in the big 4 who proved otherwise and fair play to wenger & co.
but ya see, the reason fergie was able to pick and choose which 20m+ players he has wanted over the past 10 or so years is because of stability, and if they didnt work (veron) it was no skin off his nose in the long run. there had been no major changes and no looming threat of dismissal. no major squad overhauls and when he doesnt want a player anymore, they are out the door. if liverpool are allowed the same stability they could very well do the same. but thats too long term thinking for this forum to understand so I apologise. its time to go and liverpool football club will be battling for a UEFA cup place and skeletor was recently pictured with an LFC jersey on in downtown he-man land