Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

i agree, the likes of kuyt are far too sloppy on the ball, especially this season.

still not a sackable offence considering the progress over the last few years.



he gets paid the standard amount for any top manager in the English league; less then the very, very top tier.



of course it's obvious.

just a bit redundant. especially when the reply is always 'end of season', and yet the next time a bad result comes in, it's expected that that will change to 'sack him'.

if we don't get champions league, i'll decide if i think he should be sacked.

but unless Hiddink is available for cheap, then it is never advisable to swicth managers mid-season.

The progress over the past few years is questionable. Out side of a better squad on paper than what they last guy has, it's not materialized into anything tangible and that doesn't look to be the case this year either. Unless you'd call making the top 4 an achievement which is up there with getting second last year.

Spiritoftheseventies

kippy wrote: »

The progress over the past few years is questionable. Out side of a better squad on paper than what they last guy has, it's not materialized into anything tangible and that doesn't look to be the case this year either. Unless you'd call making the top 4 an achievement which is up there with getting second last year.

Im proposing that mr wiliie back nominate a team that will finish above us in top four. The challenge has been laid down. Name any team and stick by it. which one will it be>

monkey9

kippy wrote: »

This thread will die as soon as Liverpool start looking like a team that can justify their place in the top 4

What sh!te. Liverpool could still be in the Champions League, up challenging Chelsea for the title and this thread would still be resurrected everytime we drew at home or lost a game!!

F*ck sake, we've even had Boggles claiming in the last few weeks that Liverpool weren't in the title race last season, that there was no title race at all.

And i have to laugh at the latest thrashing of Rafa's achievements, namely 'sure the Champions League win was with Houllier's squad!!'.

This is nothing more than a wind up thread. Just look at the nomination threads. Utd fans voting it thread of the year!!!

Woeful thread!!!

SlickRic

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Spurs are actually ahead of Liverpool in the league so it could be argued it has done them some good and while sacking Mourinho might not have helped Chelsea, sacking Scolari certainly did.

1. the season isn't over yet.

2. it couldn't possibly be argued that it's been good for them. for the amount of money ploughed into that team, and the amount of changeover of staff and playing personnel, they've done nothing in many years. they've not even been close to challenging in all that time.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

People bang on about this European Cup Benitez won. Scolari won the World Cup but it didn't mean he was cut out to win the Premiership. Same story with Benitez in my view.

it's still a major trophy.

i'd have more pointed to our consistency and improvement in the league over his tenure as to evidence that he may well be able get there.

he's trying to overhaul a dynasty is Ferguson's Utd, and an established financial powerhouse in Chelsea. it's not easy, and until the first quarter of this season, it has been a steady overhaul.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

As for Ferguson and Wenger, they have won league titles so they know what it takes in that regard and both have also got their teams to Champions League finals.

Ferguson, no argument. probably the best ever.

Wenger, i have the utmost respect for, for his ability to run the club at a profit (stadium aside!), and get the club into the Champions League year on year. but he's achieved less in five years than we have. if he didn't have all the kids coming through, who we still don't know if they'll win anything as a team, well he'd be getting a lot more stick.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I really don't see how anyone can think Liverpool have progressed when a season that began with talk of the title has resulted in talk of missing out on the top four, and we're only in December.

it's been year on year progress in the league until the start of this season.

from where i stand, he should be allowed one blip. i may be in the minority on that, i don't know, but it's what he deserves.

kippy

monkey9 wrote: »

What sh!te. Liverpool could still be in the Champions League, up challenging Chelsea for the title and this thread would still be resurrected everytime we drew at home or lost a game!!

F*ck sake, we've even had Boggles claiming in the last few weeks that Liverpool weren't in the title race last season, that there was no title race at all.

And i have to laugh at the latest thrashing of Rafa's achievements, namely 'sure the Champions League win was with Houllier's squad!!'.

This is nothing more than a wind up thread. Just look at the nomination threads. Utd fans voting it thread of the year!!!

Woeful thread!!!

Monkey, with the greatest of respect I haven't aligned to any of those comments.
And if you look on the context in which I made the "Rafa winning the CL with Houlliers squad" you'll see its a fair point........context is everything in this thread and quoting people out of context is as bad as what some people are doing on this thread.

If Liverpool fans or people in General dont like the gist of the thread (as with any thread) there is no gun being held to their heads to post in it.

smemon

mormank wrote: »

even then you would question the greatness of the players?? of course you would. correct me if im wrong here but if bolton won more points this year in the premier league than any other team would they be considered as the best team in the league this year?? or because people like you exist with your questions would it totally be discounted as some sort of unnatural event and that calender year be stricken from history or something??? i mean i dont understand what the problem is with greece winning the euros is? once they have won it i dont think any greeks care that there team isnt as good as brazil's? if anything this makes their achievement even better?

If you exceed all expectations in your job 1 year, great, fantastic, well done.
Now re-do that the following year and then i'll hold my hands up in pure admiration.

Same goes for anything in life... winning anything once deserves credit... retaining it (when others are obviously out to get you) shows true gladiator style mentality.

Mourinho's sacking was idiotic and to sack Wenger now would also be idiotic. These guys are not just great managers who love the game, they're great characters.

Benitez and his 'one game at a time' attitude is contradicted by his rotation policy for starters. If every game is so important, why not field your best 11? When liverpool lose, he'll constantly defend the side & play down talk of a crisis or even play down the loss...

That's not what fans want to hear when they're losing games week after week. It suggests he's out of touch with reality and refusing to acknowledge their failings...

Benitez is not at the same level as a Mourinho, Wenger or Ferguson which is part of the reason why Liverpool are not at the same level as Chelsea, Arsenal or Utd.

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

1. the season isn't over yet.

2. it couldn't possibly be argued that it's been good for them. for the amount of money ploughed into that team, and the amount of changeover of staff and playing personnel, they've done nothing in many years. they've not even been close to challenging in all that time.



it's still a major trophy.

i'd have more pointed to our consistency and improvement in the league over his tenure as to evidence that he may well be able get there.

he's trying to overhaul a dynasty is Ferguson's Utd, and an established financial powerhouse in Chelsea. it's not easy, and until the first quarter of this season, it has been a steady overhaul.



Ferguson, no argument. probably the best ever.

Wenger, i have the utmost respect for, for his ability to run the club at a profit (stadium aside!), and get the club into the Champions League year on year. but he's achieved less in five years than we have. if he didn't have all the kids coming through, who we still don't know if they'll win anything as a team, well he'd be getting a lot more stick.



it's been year on year progress in the league until the start of this season.

from where i stand, he should be allowed one blip. i may be in the minority on that, i don't know, but it's what he deserves.

Lets see the "year on year progress in the league" shall we?
http://www.anfield-online.co.uk/stats/alltimeleaguepositions.htm
fifth, third, third, fourth then second last season. Do you want a graph drawn based on those league positions. to me its not "year on year" progress, and this year, well, are we looking at third at best? In fairness it is hard to improve on second.....
Just for comparison, the previous five years were:
Fourth, third, Second, fifth, fourth...
Year on year progress is spouted any time Rafa is questioned and Frankly I dont get it.

If you want to discuss Arsenal and Man united, you should probably start threads on them.

Headshot

monkey9 wrote: »

What sh!te. Liverpool could still be in the Champions League, up challenging Chelsea for the title and this thread would still be resurrected everytime we drew at home or lost a game!!

F*ck sake, we've even had Boggles claiming in the last few weeks that Liverpool weren't in the title race last season, that there was no title race at all.

And i have to laugh at the latest thrashing of Rafa's achievements, namely 'sure the Champions League win was with Houllier's squad!!'.

This is nothing more than a wind up thread. Just look at the nomination threads. Utd fans voting it thread of the year!!!

Woeful thread!!!

no I find it a very informative thread, there's some great points of views in the thread

bigstar

SlickRic wrote: »

are they though?

man city, villa and spurs would beg to differ.

it's closer than ever before.

this isn't an excuse for rafa and how bad a season it's been, but the top 4, particularly Liverpool, on paper, are not that far ahead at all.

results this season across the board would support this.

cesc re-iterated it in his post-match interview yesterday too.

its closer this season but that implies that while city and others have improved liverpool have stayed the same.

my point was that getting into the top 4 shouldnt liverpools goal, it should be winning the league. honestly how close are you to that now. if you start missing out on CL football that would be a disaster imo.

in saying that though i dont think its all rafas fault. you dont have the same resources as some other teams and i think this is gonna show more in future. tbh im just not a fan of the style liverpool employ. for a top team id expect a bit more quality.

this thread is nonsense though in fairness, especially considering teh question was originally asked a few weeks into the season.

LuckyLloyd

smemon wrote: »

If you exceed all expectations in your job 1 year, great, fantastic, well done.
Now re-do that the following year and then i'll hold my hands up in pure admiration.

Same goes for anything in life... winning anything once deserves credit... retaining it (when others are obviously out to get you) shows true gladiator style mentality.

Mourinho's sacking was idiotic and to sack Wenger now would also be idiotic. These guys are not just great managers who love the game, they're great characters.

Benitez and his 'one game at a time' attitude is contradicted by his rotation policy for starters. If every game is so important, why not field your best 11? When liverpool lose, he'll constantly defend the side & play down talk of a crisis or even play down the loss...

That's not what fans want to hear when they're losing games week after week. It suggests he's out of touch with reality and refusing to acknowledge their failings...

Benitez is not at the same level as a Mourinho, Wenger or Ferguson which is part of the reason why Liverpool are not at the same level as Chelsea, Arsenal or Utd.

Ah jeez, really?

SlickRick et al: I would suggest that this thread is a complete waste of any well informed and rational football fan's time and energy.

The_Kew_Tour

I have to say if I was a Liverpool fan at this moment in time I would not be sure I be as happy as most Liverpool fans with Rafa that live across the water in merseyside.

LuckyLloyd

adrian280582 wrote: »

I have to say if I was a Liverpool fan at this moment in time I would not be sure I be as happy as most Liverpool fans with Rafa that live across the water in merseyside.

Can you rewrite this please? Are you suggesting Merseysiders are or are not happy with Rafa Benitez?

Glico Man

smemon wrote: »

Fergie: When Man United lose, he'll constantly defend the side & talk down about the referee or even play down the loss...

FYP

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

Year on year progress is spouted any time Rafa is questioned and Frankly I dont get it.

points scored has improved every year. personnel have improved each year; with the Alonso sale being THE big minus moving into this year though.

but you can use different stats to prove almost anything.

but you win, get rid of him.

i don't know what else you want from me? blood? giving him to the end of the season and taking stock then is the sensible thing to do. yet that doesn't seem good enough somehow?

bar the genius that is Hiddink for Chelsea last year, i barely remember anyone who had instant success like that at a big club.

who the f*ck would we realistically get in that will guarantee us success, which for this year now is probably 4th spot?

we can see if rafa can do that, then take stock, and if we need to get someone in at that stage, give that person the summer to settle in, get his own team around him etc.

and he'll probably have to do it with rafa's players, seen as we're broke.

you see, it's not as simple as; sack rafa and we'll be sorted.

kippy wrote: »

If you want to discuss Arsenal and Man united, you should probably start threads on them.

i was answering a specific comparison someone else made.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Can you rewrite this please? Are you suggesting Merseysiders are or are not happy with Rafa Benitez?

Yeah, I don't understand it at all.........

Glico Man

adrian280582 wrote: »

I have to say if I was a Liverpool fan at this moment in time I would not be sure I be as happy as most Liverpool fans with Rafa that live across the water in merseyside.

Must be on the vimpto when you wrote that

But Liverpool fans always back the manager. Sure there may be groans of disappointment from time to time but that happens everywhere to every manager

Happened to Wenger when he used to bring on Eboue, happened to Ancelotti after the draw to Everton, probably happened at Old Trafford when United lost to Villa. Can't say Harry Redknapp got a good reception when his side lost to Wolves at home

jank

mormank wrote: »

ok so here you are attributing all blame on us not winning the league last year to rafa's speach that day??/ what another load of rubbish!! we didnt win the title because of numerous different things that happened during the course of the whole season, not as a result of one press conference!! jeez!!

No not the press conference itself but the bad run of matches that came after it that undid the title challenge.

Mr.Nice Guy

SlickRic wrote: »

1. the season isn't over yet.

2. it couldn't possibly be argued that it's been good for them. for the amount of money ploughed into that team, and the amount of changeover of staff and playing personnel, they've done nothing in many years. they've not even been close to challenging in all that time.

The season isn't over but unless there's an almighty collapse from the top 3 then all Liverpool have to go for is a top 4 spot, a European competition that will take a backseat to the top 4 aim and the FA Cup. It's as good as over to be fair. I personally think Liverpool will make the top 4.

I am of the view generally that managers get an unfair amount of stick for teams performing poorly and I do genuinely respect the fact that Liverpool fans aren't fans who call for the managers head after a poor run of form, however surely there's a fine line between loyalty and stubbornness?

SlickRic wrote:

it's still a major trophy.

i'd have more pointed to our consistency and improvement in the league over his tenure as to evidence that he may well be able get there.

he's trying to overhaul a dynasty is Ferguson's Utd, and an established financial powerhouse in Chelsea. it's not easy, and until the first quarter of this season, it has been a steady overhaul.

It is a major trophy alright but how long has he been dining off that success? No trophy since 2006 doesn't appear to me like the building of a Benitez dynasty.

He made progress in the league last season pushing United as far as he did but this season it's been a return to previous years. It begs the question, was last season as good as it will get for him and if the answer is yes, should Liverpool therefore stick by him?

SlickRic wrote:

Ferguson, no argument. probably the best ever.

Wenger, i have the utmost respect for, for his ability to run the club at a profit (stadium aside!), and get the club into the Champions League year on year. but he's achieved less in five years than we have. if he didn't have all the kids coming through, who we still don't know if they'll win anything as a team, well he'd be getting a lot more stick.

I personally think Wenger gets a raw deal over his record as he's had more setbacks in my opinion than most managers. He lost big players like Flamini, Hleb, Toure and Adebayor. Just when you think he's getting his team in order he's had to rebuild it from scratch all over again. Some will argue it's his own fault these players wanted out but I believe Wenger deserves leeway due to the track record he has of building teams. I don't think Benitez possesses this quality. The point is often made that the team that won the European Cup was a team founded on largely Houllier's own structure.

SlickRic wrote:

it's been year on year progress in the league until the start of this season.

from where i stand, he should be allowed one blip. i may be in the minority on that, i don't know, but it's what he deserves.

Well the old joke about Liverpool in recent years was that they'd be out of the running before January. That argument was silenced emphatically last season but this season it seems like it's a return to that very situation.

It's looking increasingly likely that last season for Liverpool was akin to Icarus soaring too high near to the sun and that Liverpool's hopes for a major trophy have now melted away, much like Icarus's wings.

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

points scored has improved every year. personnel have improved each year; with the Alonso sale being THE big minus moving into this year though.

but you can use different stats to prove almost anything.

but you win, get rid of him.

i don't know what else you want from me? blood? giving him to the end of the season and taking stock then is the sensible thing to do. yet that doesn't seem good enough somehow?

bar the genius that is Hiddink for Chelsea last year, i barely remember anyone who had instant success like that at a big club.

who the f*ck would we realistically get in that will guarantee us success, which for this year now is probably 4th spot?

we can see if rafa can do that, then take stock, and if we need to get someone in at that stage, give that person the summer to settle in, get his own team around him etc.

and he'll probably have to do it with rafa's players, seen as we're broke.

you see, it's not as simple as; sack rafa and we'll be sorted.



i was answering a specific comparison someone else made.

To be honest with you,
While Rafa is a big part of the issues at the club, as you and countless others have mentioned the finances are a bigger problem.
So long as Rafa gets that fourth spot the club are okay for another year, falling outside that though could have a hugely negative impact on the club.

I just think its sad to see a club with the history of Liverpool end up in this position so early on in the season (out of the CL, looking like its gonna be a scrap for fourth).
The ramifications of finishing outside the top four positions for Liverpool are far worse than at ANY stage of their history in the PL.
They've only finished outside the top 4 in 5 seasons out of 17 seasons of the PL, if it happens this time round, that could become a lot more common.

SlickRic

MNG, i respect those points, i do.

i can see that point of view.

i just don't think sacking him at this point is sensible.

it could well be proved that last season was the 'blip' or our 'Icarus' moment. we may never know.

as a side point, he's also re-built the academy from nothing, which gets overlooked an awful lot.

as i say, i just don't see how a sacking can be the right move. for me, the end of the season at the earliest.

Iang87

personally now think its timefor benitez to go. Someone posted about getting top 4 is the goal this season. Find me any positive outside the united game that warrants liverpool thinking that under benitez they will get their top 4 spot.

Was it the passionless performance against Chelsea,
was it the luck of beating everton,
was it the second half yesterday against arsenal,
was it losing to villa at home,
was it drawing with city at home,
was it losing to Spurs on the opening day.


They are Liverpools challengers for the top 4 and look what we've done against them. Genuinely tell me how anyone can think that benitez is the man to bring us 4th spot.

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

To be honest with you,
While Rafa is a big part of the issues at the club, as you and countless others have mentioned the finances are a bigger problem.
So long as Rafa gets that fourth spot the club are okay for another year, falling outside that though could have a hugely negative impact on the club.

I just think its sad to see a club with the history of Liverpool end up in this position so early on in the season (out of the CL, looking like its gonna be a scrap for fourth).
The ramifications of finishing outside the top four positions for Liverpool are far worse than at ANY stage of their history in the PL.
They've only finished outside the top 4 in 5 seasons out of 17 seasons of the PL, if it happens this time round, that could become a lot more common.

a good post, and a very honest assessment of how a lot of us fans feel i think; well i do anyway.

Spiritoftheseventies

SlickRic wrote: »

MNG, i respect those points, i do.

i can see that point of view.

i just don't think sacking him at this point is sensible.

it could well be proved that last season was the 'blip' or our 'Icarus' moment. we may never know.

as a side point, he's also re-built the academy from nothing, which gets overlooked an awful lot.

as i say, i just don't see how a sacking can be the right move. for me, the end of the season at the earliest.

Cant remember the last time a manager was sacked at liverpool. Normally they step down.

SlickRic

Iang87 wrote: »

Genuinely tell me how anyone can think that benitez is the man to bring us 4th spot.

ok, so let's say everything you say is justified for a moment...

who do you get in if you sack him now?

LuckyLloyd

Iang87 wrote: »

personally now think its timefor benitez to go. Someone posted about getting top 4 is the goal this season. Find me any positive outside the united game that warrants liverpool thinking that under benitez they will get their top 4 spot.

Was it the passionless performance against Chelsea,
was it the luck of beating everton,
was it the second half yesterday against arsenal,
was it losing to villa at home,
was it drawing with city at home,
was it losing to Spurs on the opening day.


They are Liverpools challengers for the top 4 and look what we've done against them. Genuinely tell me how anyone can think that benitez is the man to bring us 4th spot.

I seem to remember you wanting Benitez out at points during last season, so you'll have to forgive me for dismissing the above.

leninbenjamin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

SlickRick et al: I would suggest that this thread is a complete waste of any well informed and rational football fan's time and energy.

What an utterly snobbish and backwards statement. You can make the same argument of any in the threads in this forum.

Whether it offends you're good tastes or not, the Benitez question is one of the most interesting in football. You only have to weigh up some of the pro's and cons to see this:

For:

• Champions League
• History with Valencia
• Purchases of Alonso, Masch, Torres, Agger, Reina
• Obvious progress in the league

Against:

• Failure to plug the same holes that existed in the starting lineup when he joined (i.e. fullbacks and wings).
• Doesn't seem to get the dressing room behind him in the same way Mourinho or Fergy do
• Spent an awful lot of money
• This is not the first time Benitez has fallen out with the clubs owners
• Long periods of stagnation over the 5 years he's been in charge

If's and But's

• Possible short term outlook in the transfer market: some may praise Benitez for spending 5 million on someone to do a temporary job, others see this as a failure to save ones pennies for when it matters.
• Tactical inflexibility or Football Philosophy (Gerrard RW saga)
• Does their dependency on Torres and Gerrard for goals represent a lack of ideas or pragmatism?

Any football 'fan' who shrugs off such a debate really isn't worth his salt, these are the exact type of endless debates that lead to so much passion on the barstool. It really is a case of what's your footballing philosophy.

LuckyLloyd

SlickRic wrote: »

who do you get in of you sack him now?

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

Cant remember the last time a manager was sacked at liverpool. Normally they step down.

true, and it's something i admire in our club.

but, and i'm not saying this is true of benitez, at some point the club has to make the big decision.

The_Kew_Tour

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Can you rewrite this please? Are you suggesting Merseysiders are or are not happy with Rafa Benitez?

to me most people seem to support him.

LuckyLloyd

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Against:

• Failure to plug the same holes that existed in the starting lineup when he joined (i.e. fullbacks and wings).
  
• Doesn't seem to get the dressing room behind him in the same way Mourinho or Fergy do
• Spent an awful lot of money
• This is not the first time Benitez has fallen out with the clubs owners
• Long periods of stagnation over the 5 years he's been in charge

Any football 'fan' who shrugs off such a debate really isn't worth his salt, these are the exact type of endless debates that lead to so much passion on the barstool. It really is a case of what's your footballing philosophy.

I never claimed to be a barstool football fan "worth his salt". The very fact that most football fans "worth their salt" automatically and unquestionably believe the above to be true is a damning indictment of the quality and relevance of this type of debate. Just a few posts above we have someone wheeling out the old myth about Benitez and rotation. This "debate" is existing primarily on hot air and hate. And I couldn't give a **** that most football fans enjoy it, most fans of football consciously choose to approach the topic in a completely non - cerebral fashion.

midget lord

leninbenjamin wrote: »

What an utterly snobbish and backwards statement. You can make the same argument of any in the threads in this forum.

Whether it offends you're good tastes or not, the Benitez question is one of the most interesting in football. You only have to weigh up some of the pro's and cons to see this:

For:

• Champions League
• History with Valencia
• Purchases of Alonso, Masch, Torres, Agger, Reina
• Obvious progress in the league

Against:

• Failure to plug the same holes that existed in the starting lineup when he joined (i.e. fullbacks and wings).
• Doesn't seem to get the dressing room behind him in the same way Mourinho or Fergy do
• Spent an awful lot of money
• This is not the first time Benitez has fallen out with the clubs owners
• Long periods of stagnation over the 5 years he's been in charge

If's and But's

• Possible short term outlook in the transfer market: some may praise Benitez for spending 5 million on someone to do a temporary job, others see this as a failure to save ones pennies for when it matters.
• Tactical inflexibility or Football Philosophy (Gerrard RW saga)
• Does their dependency on Torres and Gerrard for goals represent a lack of ideas or pragmatism?

Any football 'fan' who shrugs off such a debate really isn't worth his salt, these are the exact type of endless debates that lead to so much passion on the barstool. It really is a case of what's your footballing philosophy.

What obvious league progression has there been this season?

LuckyLloyd

adrian280582 wrote: »

to me most people seem to support him.

Most match going fans do support him, this is true. Well that is certainly my experience anyway.

Spiritoftheseventies

leninbenjamin wrote: »

What an utterly snobbish and backwards statement. You can make the same argument of any in the threads in this forum.

Whether it offends you're good tastes or not, the Benitez question is one of the most interesting in football. You only have to weigh up some of the pro's and cons to see this:

For:

• Champions League
• History with Valencia
• Purchases of Alonso, Masch, Torres, Agger, Reina
• Obvious progress in the league

Against:

• Failure to plug the same holes that existed in the starting lineup when he joined (i.e. fullbacks and wings).
• Doesn't seem to get the dressing room behind him in the same way Mourinho or Fergy do
• Spent an awful lot of money
• This is not the first time Benitez has fallen out with the clubs owners
• Long periods of stagnation over the 5 years he's been in charge

If's and But's

• Possible short term outlook in the transfer market: some may praise Benitez for spending 5 million on someone to do a temporary job, others see this as a failure to save ones pennies for when it matters.
• Tactical inflexibility or Football Philosophy (Gerrard RW saga)
• Does their dependency on Torres and Gerrard for goals represent a lack of ideas or pragmatism?

Any football 'fan' who shrugs off such a debate really isn't worth his salt, these are the exact type of endless debates that lead to so much passion on the barstool. It really is a case of what's your footballing philosophy.

if memory serves me right, there was some rumour of a dressing room revolt against Mourinho.
And yes Benitez has fallen out with club owners but within reason given what has gone on with budged and then the whole business with Klinsmann.
Long periods of stagnation is pushing it. We have been in top four I think almost every season since he took over apart from when we finished fifth to Everton.
At least get facts straight. We had a bad season this season. And I think that is why he will go. We went two steps forward last season and four back this season

Iang87

SlickRic wrote: »

ok, so let's say everything you say is justified for a moment...

who do you get in if you sack him now?

i'd try bring in hiddink cos i cant see him keeping the russian job.

I'd bring him in til May then either beg him to stay or search for a suitable replacement

LuckyLloyd

midget lord wrote: »

What obvious league progression has there been this season?

lol, you do realise that there were seasons before this one, and that there will be seasons after this one, yes (it may also interest you to know that this season is not even halfway over - imagine that!!)?

jank

Just thinking long term here can anyone actually see Rafa there in 2 years time?

Like they have NO money in January (City will surely buy) and not looking good for cash in the summer unless they get a cash injection, something not so assured at the moment since that prince backed out of a deal. So any new players will have to be bought by selling current players.

I dont know, no matter what way you look at it it doesn't look good. Liverpool fans will defend them to the hilt but they have yet to point out a scenario where Rafa will keep his job long term never mind win the title. Saying that the club cant afford to sack him doent breed confidence. Saying he is the best available is somewhat lacking in ambition.

Gus Hiddinck is a fantastic manager and would do wonders at Liverpool. However City might get there first and if they do then god help the rest the top four never mind Liverpool.

midget lord

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Most match going fans do support him, this is true. Well that is certainly my experience anyway.

Thats simply not true.

Iang87

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I seem to remember you wanting Benitez out at points during last season, so you'll have to forgive me for dismissing the above.

i did want him out last season and look what happened a poor united team won the league. By May 1st 2009 Steven Gerrard should have been looking at his league medal except January happened.

Ok you can dismiss my opinion i dont mind really just think its slightly stupid lik special school stupid that you think he's the right man.

LuckyLloyd

jank wrote: »

Just thinking long term here can anyone actually see Rafa there in 2 years time?

Like they have NO money in January (City will surely buy) and not looking good for cash in the summer unless they get a cash injection, something not so assured at the moment since that prince backed out of a deal. So any new players will have to be bought by selling current players.

I dont know, no matter what way you look at it it doesn't look good. Liverpool fans will defend them to the hilt but they have yet to point out a scenario where Rafa will keep his job long term never mind win the title. Saying that the club cant afford to sack him doent breed confidence. Saying he is the best available is somewhat lacking in ambition.

Gus Hiddinck is a fantastic manager and would do wonders at Liverpool. However City might get there first and if they do then god help the rest the top four never mind Liverpool.

It frankly amazes me that someone could believe that Gus Hiddink is a realistic option for Liverpool or City. I guess I should thank you though, the above is a perfect illustration of what logic is up against in this debate.

Spiritoftheseventies

jank wrote: »

Just thinking long term here can anyone actually see Rafa there in 2 years time?

Like they have NO money in January (City will surely buy) and not looking good for cash in the summer unless they get a cash injection, something not so assured at the moment since that prince backed out of a deal. So any new players will have to be bought by selling current players.

I dont know, no matter what way you look at it it doesn't look good. Liverpool fans will defend them to the hilt but they have yet to point out a scenario where Rafa will keep his job long term never mind win the title. Saying that the club cant afford to sack him doent breed confidence. Saying he is the best available is somewhat lacking in ambition.

Gus Hiddinck is a fantastic manager and would do wonders at Liverpool. However City might get there first and if they do then god help the rest the top four never mind Liverpool.

Wouldnt worry about city. far too many personalities in that team. Adebayor, Ireland, Bellamy. Believe in their own hype too much. race for top four will be tight but really history has shown us that Villa, Spurs and other pretenders cant last the space. Granted Spurs were unlucky one year but im not convinced that any of them are long term candidates for top four at moment.

LuckyLloyd

Iang87 wrote: »

i did want him out last season and look what happened a poor united team won the league. By May 1st 2009 Steven Gerrard should have been looking at his league medal except January happened.

Ok you can dismiss my opinion i dont mind really just think its slightly stupid lik special school stupid that you think he's the right man.

How many points did that poor team amass? How would you say that points total stood up to previous winners of the Premiership? Genuinely fascinated at what your answer to the above will be.

SlickRic

Iang87 wrote: »

i'd try bring in hiddink cos i cant see him keeping the russian job.

I'd bring him in til May then either beg him to stay or search for a suitable replacement

i'd take it.

i'd be highly doubtful he'd return to a club that wasn't chelsea.

or come as a 'favour' to our owners.

we don't have the same contacts as a russian billionaire does to the russian national coach.

ilovelamp2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Most match going fans do support him, this is true. Well that is certainly my experience anyway.

It's getting a lot closer to 50/50 this season though.

Iang87

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It frankly amazes me that someone could believe that Gus Hiddink is a realistic option for Liverpool or City. I guess I should thank you though, the above is a perfect illustration of what logic is up against in this debate.

It frankly amazes everyone else that you think Benitez is the right man. wheres the logic in that

leninbenjamin

midget lord wrote: »

What obvious league progression has there been this season?

5th in the 1st year and 2nd in the 5th year, with the points haul on average increasing. It's undeniable there's been something an improvement in the league over the 5 years (under the 5 years of Houllier they broke the 70 points barrier only once, under Benitez it's been done 3 times).

However the question is whether that observed difference has any statistical significance?

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, you do realise that there were seasons before this one, and that there will be seasons after this one, yes (it may also interest you to know that this season is not even halfway over - imagine that!!)?

Indeed there were and there will be.

Liverpool have only finished outside the top 4 in the league 5 times in the 17 year history of the PL.
The MAIN reason Rafa has rarely failed to qualify for Europe in relation to his predecessors is more to do with the PL getting more CL spots than anything else and I think Liverpool fans sometimes forget this in the haze of Rafa's PR.

I dont get the year on year "progress" that Rafa has had, anyone that can read a graph would see it hasnt been year on year progress.

LuckyLloyd

midget lord wrote: »

Thats simply not true.

As I say, that's my experience. Is yours different? When you go to Anfiield do you feel a distinctly anti - Benitez vibe?

SlickRic

Iang87 wrote: »

a poor united team won the league.

another myth used to beat rafa with.

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

I dont get the year on year "progress" that Rafa has had, anyone that can read a graph would see it hasnt been year on year progress.

Plot the end points totals on a graph and report your findings!

Kess73

leninbenjamin wrote: »

What an utterly snobbish and backwards statement. You can make the same argument of any in the threads in this forum.

Whether it offends you're good tastes or not, the Benitez question is one of the most interesting in football. You only have to weigh up some of the pro's and cons to see this:

For:

• Champions League
• History with Valencia
• Purchases of Alonso, Masch, Torres, Agger, Reina
• Obvious progress in the league

Against:

• Failure to plug the same holes that existed in the starting lineup when he joined (i.e. fullbacks and wings).
• Doesn't seem to get the dressing room behind him in the same way Mourinho or Fergy do
• Spent an awful lot of money
• This is not the first time Benitez has fallen out with the clubs owners
• Long periods of stagnation over the 5 years he's been in charge

If's and But's

• Possible short term outlook in the transfer market: some may praise Benitez for spending 5 million on someone to do a temporary job, others see this as a failure to save ones pennies for when it matters.
• Tactical inflexibility or Football Philosophy (Gerrard RW saga)
• Does their dependency on Torres and Gerrard for goals represent a lack of ideas or pragmatism?

Any football 'fan' who shrugs off such a debate really isn't worth his salt, these are the exact type of endless debates that lead to so much passion on the barstool. It really is a case of what's your footballing philosophy.

Pretty good post that does try to weigh up both sides of the arguement from what I presume is a non Liverpool fan point of view.

One things that irks me when I hear it from fellow Liverpool fans is the Gerrard being poor on the right saga.

I am just curious as to what you meant when you said the Gerrard RW saga, as in terms of goals scored and assists for the team, it was a season that Gerrard has only beaten once since he broke into the team in the 1998/99 season.