Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

kippy

leninbenjamin wrote: »

5th in the 1st year and 2nd in the 5th year, with the points haul on average increasing. It's undeniable there's been something an improvement in the league over the 5 years (under the 5 years of Houllier they broke the 70 points barrier only once, under Benitez it's been done 3 times).

However the question is whether that observed difference has any statistical significance?

You missed the middle years........nice way of just forgetting them but they werent year on year progress.
As for the points haul, we to be honest, points haul is a bit of a "moot point" to borrow a phrase used earlier.
The PL is not a one team league, you are not battling against yourself year on year, you are battling against other teams......their points haul is what matters, if yours doesnt beat theirs you wont beat them in the league......

Jazzy

percentage wise, how many posts in this thread actually hold any weight or provide some sort of helpful insight into the problems liverpool football club are currently facing? it just seems that its some sort of poor spam thread which is ultimately meaningless but is dragged out to dance in front of us after every liverpool game, win or lose (mostly losses :mad: ). I try to address the problems on the pitch and where liverpool are actually going wrong but it is buried under the weight of what if's and red tape. there are better bureaucrats on this forum then there is in the whole of the Dail.. and thats saying something

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Plot the end points totals on a graph and report your findings!

Nice smiley face, is that your attempt at deflecting from a valid point?

ilovelamp2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It frankly amazes me that someone could believe that Gus Hiddink is a realistic option for Liverpool or City. I guess I should thank you though, the above is a perfect illustration of what logic is up against in this debate.

Personally I fall on the sack Rafa side of things, and have done for a long time, but Hiddink (realistic option or not) is a bad idea.

Managing international teams is a lot different to club management, and his track record outside Dutch clubs isn't great. It's not even good.

Add to that the fact that he's already 63, the chances are he wouldn't be a long term appointment.

I'd prefer to look at younger more promising candidates, which is what we did last time around with Mourinho and Rafa.

el dude

Rafa is done imo.

We've still got a top four squad though. And we'll still finish top four this season.

event

bayviewclose wrote: »

Okay without dragging this into "who is the better player" thread (and its still torres), he doesn't go missing half the time, doesn't fall over half the time, doesn't sulk half the time etc. And if you think scoring in the final of the second biggest international tournament is no big deal than all i can say is WOW.

yet thats what you did:rolleyes:

ronaldo goes missing?

in his last three years at united, he scored 66 goals and had 27 assists in 101 games.
in a lot of these games he wasnt even up front.
for madrid mainly up front he has scored 6 goals in 7 games

you cant mention the euros as its not ronaldos fault he hasnt played in one.
sure ye could mention that ronaldo has scored in a champions league final, has torres?

you dont think torres sulks? in his first year he never did but last year and this i have seen him do it a lot.

yeah he dives and is a moaner

i dont like ronaldo(in fact i hate him) and am not a united or madrid fan but to put torres ahead of him is just blinkered IMO

Iang87

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How many points did that poor team amass? How would you say that points total stood up to previous winners of the Premiership? Genuinely fascinated at what your answer to the above will be.

Think back to last season just for a second. Last years united team wasn't a great team and no1 will ever tell me different. They were very lucky on that run where they didnt concede and kept scoring scrappy goals and stealing 1 - 0 wins. They weren't good and it was those 1-0 wins that effectively won the league.

I couldn't give a **** what the total points is compared to years back, using that logic is ridiculous. Its as good as saying if we get to 91 this year we get uniteds medals and the trophy. Its a different season this year please stop referring back to last year.

Seriously thats whats wrong with Liverpool, living in the past thinking they have a god given right to 4th spot even if they keep that muppet in the job.

I have just realised that arguing with you about this is just like arguing with a wall so i'm done with this.

My opinion Benitez has to go and your opinion is wrong

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

As for the points haul, we to be honest, points haul is a bit of a "moot point" to borrow a phrase used earlier.

it's moot if we're talking about leagues won.

it is a perfectly justifiable means, amongst other things, of measuring progress year on year.

kippy

event wrote: »

yet thats what you did:rolleyes:

ronaldo goes missing?

in his last three years at united, he scored 66 goals and had 27 assists in 101 games.
in a lot of these games he wasnt even up front.
for madrid mainly up front he has scored 6 goals in 7 games

you cant mention the euros as its not ronaldos fault he hasnt played in one.
sure ye could mention that ronaldo has scored in a champions league final, has torres?

you dont think torres sulks? in his first year he never did but last year and this i have seen him do it a lot.

yeah he dives and is a moaner

i dont like ronaldo(in fact i hate him) and am not a united or madrid fan but to put torres ahead of him is just blinkered IMO

I thought we were trying to avoid a United versus Liverpool slant (too much) on this thread.

Spiritoftheseventies

God this thread has taken on a new life since Sunday. Thank the ref for that.

SlickRic

Iang87 wrote: »

Think back to last season just for a second. Last years united team wasn't a great team and no1 will ever tell me different. They were very lucky on that run where they didnt concede and kept scoring scrappy goals and stealing 1 - 0 wins. They weren't good and it was those 1-0 wins that effectively won the league.

i stopped reading after this.

that is the sign of champions.

utd were not a poor team last year.

those 1-0 wins are what won utd the league last year, arsenal leagues under george graham, liverpool leagues back in the day, and chelsea leagues under mourinho.

it is the sign of a top team.

we still had a great chance, and should've done it, but to call utd poor last year is a bit rich, and once again, is just a way of further criticising rafa, when there's already enough to criticise him for.

ilovelamp2000

SlickRic wrote: »

it's moot if we're talking about leagues won.

it is a perfectly justifiable means, amongst other things, of measuring progress year on year.

I don't think it is.

Our points total is dependant on a number of different factors, how good we are is a large part of it but it's by no means the only part.

Iang87

SlickRic wrote: »

i stopped reading after this.

that is the sign of champions.

utd were not a poor team last year.

those 1-0 wins are what won utd the league last year, arsenal leagues under george graham, liverpool leagues back in the day, and chelsea leagues under mourinho.

it is the sign of a top team.

we still had a great chance, and should've done it, but to call utd poor last year is a bit rich, and once again, is just a way of further criticising rafa, when there's already enough to criticise him for.

genuinely now last post this time. For 5 minutes take your head out of your hole and take a look at whats going on with Liverpool on the pitch. Thats the managers fault thats where the blame falls

leninbenjamin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I never claimed to be a barstool football fan "worth his salt". The very fact that most football fans "worth their salt" automatically and unquestionably believe the above to be true is a damning indictment of the quality and relevance of this type of debate. Just a few posts above we have someone wheeling out the old myth about Benitez and rotation. This "debate" is existing primarily on hot air and hate. And I couldn't give a **** that most football fans enjoy it, most fans of football consciously choose to approach the topic in a completely non - cerebral fashion.

Christ man, you really are blinkered when it comes to all things Benitez. £100 million is not a lot of money? Benitez not falling out with Valencia? What about "I asked for a table and they bought me a lampshade"? As for the dressing room thing, perhaps. But I've never ever seen Liverpool players back Benitez as enthusiastically as United players do Fergy, or Chelsea did those title winning seasons with Mourinho. And maybe I'm wrong but I don't remember hearing Gerrard praising any of Benitez's half time team talks lately the way Cesc did at the weekend.

P.S. I love the ridiculous attitude Liverpool fans have in these debates. They question us 'non-believers' for believing what was widely written at the time but never seem to provide any evidence to the alternative.

ilovelamp2000

SlickRic wrote: »

i stopped reading after this.

that is the sign of champions.

utd were not a poor team last year.

those 1-0 wins are what won utd the league last year, arsenal leagues under george graham, liverpool leagues back in the day, and chelsea leagues under mourinho.

it is the sign of a top team.

we still had a great chance, and should've done it, but to call utd poor last year is a bit rich, and once again, is just a way of further criticising rafa, when there's already enough to criticise him for.

Your argument here is just a cliché.

The United team that won last year is probably the weakest Man United team that's won the league under Fergie. They were still good, just not as good as the teams that had gone before them.

That they won the title was more down to poor management decisions at Chelsea and Liverpool and Wenger's insistence on trying out young players as anything else.

SlickRic

el dude wrote: »

Rafa is done imo.

i tend to think he is, as the signs are not good.

but he should be given the season at least to prove that he is capable of turning it around.

imo, it is too risky to get rid mid-season when there aren't other obvious candidates.

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

Nice smiley face, is that your attempt at deflecting from a valid point?

No, it was my attempt to point you in the right direction in a nice way.

1999: 54
2000: 67
2001: 69
2002: 80
2003: 64
2004: 60
2005: 58
2006: 82
2007: 68
2008: 76
2009: 86

Average under Houllier: 65.66
Average under Benitez: 74

Exceeding Houllier's totals 4 out of 5 seasons (winning the CL the year he didn't), and providing Liverpool's highest ever Premiership points total.

ilovelamp2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, it was my attempt to point you in the right direction in a nice way.

1999: 54
2000: 67
2001: 69
2002: 80
2003: 64
2004: 60
2005: 58
2006: 82
2007: 68
2008: 76
2009: 86

Average under Houllier: 65.66
Average under Benitez: 74

Exceeding Houllier's totals 4 out of 5 seasons (winning the CL the year he didn't), and providing Liverpool's highest ever Premiership points total.

All while winning less trophies.

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

it's moot if we're talking about leagues won.

it is a perfectly justifiable means, amongst other things, of measuring progress year on year.

But its not.....League position is a far better barometer as its a relative measurement that is used based on the other clubs points hauls that season.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, it was my attempt to point you in the right direction in a nice way.

1999: 54
2000: 67
2001: 69
2002: 80
2003: 64
2004: 60
2005: 58
2006: 82
2007: 68
2008: 76
2009: 86

Average under Houllier: 65.66
Average under Benitez: 74

Exceeding Houllier's totals 4 out of 5 seasons (winning the CL the year he didn't), and providing Liverpool's highest ever Premiership points total.

So we've moved the goal posts from year on year progress to average points hauls......
I think the flawed logic you've used there has been outlined by Rosco1982
And again, those points totals, when viewed on their own, without league position taken into account are not a very good barometer of how well the club did that season.......

SlickRic

Iang87 wrote: »

For 5 minutes take your head out of your hole and take a look at whats going on with Liverpool on the pitch. Thats the managers fault thats where the blame falls

very nice. well done.

did i say it's not his fault? no.

did i say, imo, that it would be too hasty to sack him mid-season? yes.

did i say people are downgrading utd's performances last season to criticise Rafa? yes. (look at the points totals).

i'm not blindly following Rafa. i know damn well what his faults are. but i'm also a fan of not sacking managers hastily, and in particular mid-season, especially after watching the likes of City, Spurs and Newcastle in seasons gone by.

you can have a different opinion, that's fine. but it doesn't mean, as you eloquently put it, my 'head is in my hole' if i have a different one.

midget lord

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, you do realise that there were seasons before this one, and that there will be seasons after this one, yes (it may also interest you to know that this season is not even halfway over - imagine that!!)?

Of course I realise that there have been seasons prior to this, perhaps you should try to be a little less condescending.

Right now I can only judge this season on what has transpired so far and that is not progression. Obviously you can qualify your previous statement and say that we have made progession season on season up to this season and that is completely true. However, if you were to look at Rafa's time in anfield in its entirety then this season is a massive step back. We have already lost many more matches than we did last season, in all competitions and the standard of football is really poor. We are also gone out of the CL earlier than in any other season under Rafa's tenure.

Up to this season I was one of the biggest Rafaites out there, supporting every bonkers selection and every 70th minute substitution, however I have become completely disillusioned. I realise his hands were tied with regard transfer fees during the summer but it was completely obvious that we needed cover for Torres, he didnt get that cover. When disaster struck and Torres was out injured we were left with very few options up front. The inexperienced N'gog and the overweight Voronin. N'gog is a good lad, but he is not Torres, why then did Rafa persist with playing him up front on his own?

However, for me the most obvious difficulty this season has been out lack of creativity from midfield. We have nothing coming out of Lucas and Mascherano in the middle yet Rafa has played them in the vast majority of games this season. Surely he could see that we needed an additional dimension there? Why not drop Gerrard back to the middle and play Benny Noon in the hole or alongside N'gog?

The problem is that despite turgid performence after turgid performance Rafa would not change things around. He believes in his the tactics he comes up with prior to games and shows too little ability to change things around during the game (Istanbul aside).

I hope he proves me wrong, but right now I cant see any alternative but the future of LFC being without Rafa Benitez.

LuckyLloyd

Iang87 wrote: »

Think back to last season just for a second. Last years united team wasn't a great team and no1 will ever tell me different. They were very lucky on that run where they didnt concede and kept scoring scrappy goals and stealing 1 - 0 wins. They weren't good and it was those 1-0 wins that effectively won the league.

I couldn't give a **** what the total points is compared to years back, using that logic is ridiculous. Its as good as saying if we get to 91 this year we get uniteds medals and the trophy. Its a different season this year please stop referring back to last year.

Seriously thats whats wrong with Liverpool, living in the past thinking they have a god given right to 4th spot even if they keep that muppet in the job.

I have just realised that arguing with you about this is just like arguing with a wall so i'm done with this.

My opinion Benitez has to go and your opinion is wrong

Iang87 wrote: »

genuinely now last post this time. For 5 minutes take your head out of your hole and take a look at whats going on with Liverpool on the pitch. Thats the managers fault thats where the blame falls

Excellent. In response to the reminder that Utd achieved a ridiculous points total and Liverpool achieved one that would usually be good enough to win the league (with the help of winning the two title six pointers) you wave your hands around about how Utd "were lucky during their run" (how would that be Liverpool's / Benitez's fault anyway ); call Benitez a "muppet"; and then change tack to talk about "the pitch". Good job.

SlickRic

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Our points total is dependant on a number of different factors, how good we are is a large part of it but it's by no means the only part.

i completely agree. read what i said.

it is one of a few factors.

but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as irrelevant.

Jazzy

Rosco1982 wrote: »

All while winning less trophies.

its this sort of super retardism and massive hypocrisy that makes a lot of this forum just a giant facepalm. "liverpool need to win the league they havent in 20 years blabla am i wearing any pants?" and then you see a post like that and you see stats above about something which is what we are meant to be doing.... and just.... ya know.
f**k it. picard, take it away -

Iang87

SlickRic wrote: »

very nice. well done.

did i say it's not his fault? no.

did i say, imo, that it would be too hasty to sack him mid-season? yes.

did i say people are downgrading utd's performances last season to criticise Rafa? yes. (look at the points totals).

i'm not blindly following Rafa. i know damn well what his faults are. but i'm also a fan of not sacking managers hastily, and in particular mid-season, especially after watching the likes of City, Spurs and Newcastle in seasons gone by.

you can have a different opinion, that's fine. but it doesn't mean, as you eloquently put it, my 'head is in my hole' if i have a different one.

ok apologies for that comment its just i've had it with benitez completely

Iago

Liverpool have problems...

Rafa isn't the right answer, but he is the best answer at the moment. Until that changes nothing else will, so I fully expect him to be there at the end of the season, and more than likely the start of next season as well.

Warper

The main reason Liverpool finished second last year was because Chelsea were in crisis - simple as. That is why Scolari was sacked half-way through the season. Once Hiddink came in Chelsea were reformed, playing at a much higher standard than Liverpool. I think the main thing here is Liverpool have a Top 4 squad which is why people are questioning Rafa.

For Liverpool to finish third in a group containing a team currently mid-table in France, a team currently mid-table in Serie A and the woeful Debrecen (who Liverpool beat 1-0 at Anfield) highlights the current state of the club. And then you have them 12 pts off the top languishing in 7th place in the League yet Rafa is still the man - wake up people.

Kirby

SlickRic wrote: »

i stopped reading after this.

that is the sign of champions.

utd were not a poor team last year.

those 1-0 wins are what won utd the league last year, arsenal leagues under george graham, liverpool leagues back in the day, and chelsea leagues under mourinho.

it is the sign of a top team.

we still had a great chance, and should've done it, but to call utd poor last year is a bit rich, and once again, is just a way of further criticising rafa, when there's already enough to criticise him for.

He isn't wrong.

United weren't a great team last season and they aren't a great team this season either. When you compare the current team to previous teams, it comes up short. The flaws are there to see.

The blaringly obvious is in midfield. They really struggle here. Valencia isn't good enough for United. Nani has all the worst attributes of Ronaldo without his good ones. He's wasteful, he's arrogant and worst of all he slows down the play to do needless stepovers when a simple pass would suffice. Park works and runs all day, but he reminds me of a child in possesion. He never knows what he is doing when he is running at a defense.

And in the centre, they aren't a patch on players like Mascherano and Gerrard. Scholes is past it and Anderson hasn't shown he is good enough. Carrick is very limited in that he needs space, and lots of it, to be effective. Gibson is a good striker of the ball and may grow into a good player, but he isn't one at the moment. He hides too much, and his range of passing is poor.

John O'Shea at right back, while vastly improved in the last few seasons, is not good enough for a team like United. He is a vulnerability that many teams target. He is slow, and gets pushed around way too much for a man of his size.

Ferdinand is becoming a bit of a Ledley King. He is missing more and more games....and when he does play, he isn't playing well.

VDS is still top quality. No doubt there. But he's old. He has two seasons left in him max and neither Foster or the Pole are good enough. Unless they splash the cash in the summer either this year or next, they are going to struggle here. Remember when Peter schmeichel left and the trouble they had replacing him?

Seriously, United have problems. Liverpool could have taken them last year and they didn't. Those problems are still there and its why Chelsea will probably win it this year. The arguement that Benitez has had the best chance in years to win the title....and didn't....is a good one in my opinion.

ilovelamp2000

Jazzy wrote: »

its this sort of super retardism and massive hypocrisy that makes a lot of this forum just a giant facepalm. "liverpool need to win the league they havent in 20 years blabla am i wearing any pants?" and then you see a post like that and you see stats above about something which is what we are meant to be doing.... and just.... ya know.
f**k it. picard, take it away -

Huh ?

We're supposed to be winning the league. We are failing massively in that regard.

Stats can't hide that.

LuckyLloyd

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Christ man, you really are blinkered when it comes to all things Benitez. £100 million is not a lot of money? Benitez not falling out with Valencia? What about "I asked for a table and they bought me a lampshade"? As for the dressing room thing, perhaps. But I've never ever seen Liverpool players back Benitez as enthusiastically as United players do Fergy, or Chelsea did those title winning seasons with Mourinho. And maybe I'm wrong but I don't remember hearing Gerrard praising any of Benitez's half time team talks lately the way Cesc did at the weekend.

P.S. I love the ridiculous attitude Liverpool fans have in these debates. They question us 'non-believers' for believing what was widely written at the time but never seem to provide any evidence to the alternative.

Sigh, it's all relative:

- we have talked about the net figures over and over again on this board. We've averaged a spend of less than Chelsea and Utd and been less successful; we've averaged a spend in excess of Arsenal and everyone else and been more successful during the period 2004 - 2009;

- The backing managers thing is results orientated nonsense. When teams win a league everything is positive and rosy, you see them celebrating and unified more often because they won more games than everyone else. I mean, anyone who watched Liverpool eviscerate Real Madrid and Utd in quick succession last season and didn't feel the love isn't paying attention;

- As for the board room stuff, so much is blown out of proportion by a scandal hungry media that it naturally affects people's perceptions;

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Your argument here is just a cliché.

The United team that won last year is probably the weakest Man United team that's won the league under Fergie. They were still good, just not as good as the teams that had gone before them.

That they won the title was more down to poor management decisions at Chelsea and Liverpool and Wenger's insistence on trying out young players as anything else.

LOOK AT THE POINTS TOTAL. THEY FINISHED WITH 91 ****ING POINTS. LIVERPOOL BEAT THEM THE TWO TIMES THEY PLAYED. HOW IS ANY OF THAT LIVERPOOL'S / BENITEZ'S FAULT???

You can call last year's Utd team what you like, but they took care of business with style.

Rosco1982 wrote: »

All while winning less trophies.

Pick one:

- the six years under Houllier;
- the five years under Benitez;

Ye all are so quick to forget the astounding competitiveness in the CL.

kippy wrote: »

So we've moved the goal posts from year on year progress to average points hauls......
I think the flawed logic you've used there has been outlined by Rosco1982
And again, those points totals, when viewed on their own, without league position taken into account are not a very good barometer of how well the club did that season.......

No, points totals are the be all and end all. Of course football is not played in a vacuum, but points totals are the black and white measuring stick at the end of a season - the only meaningful barometer of what you achieved in the league. When Benitez is achieving an average in this regard that is pulling closer to the average that teams who win the league achieve it is absolutely progress.

SlickRic

i know their flaws.

i've criticised their midfield in particular in their superthread countless times.

they still posted an incredible amount of points though.

Warper

Cmon Utd mightn't have been great last year but they still were very good. They won the PL, Carling Cup and got to the CL final so that argument is thrown out the window.

midget lord

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, points totals are the be all and end all. Of course football is not played in a vacuum, but points totals are the black and white measuring stick at the end of a season - the only meaningful barometer of what you achieved in the league. When Benitez is achieving an average in this regard that is pulling closer to the average that teams who win the league achieve it is absolutely progress.

You are still not addressing the startling inadequacies of this season.

ilovelamp2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sigh, it's all relative:

- we have talked about the net figures over and over again on this board. We've averaged a spend of less than Chelsea and Utd and been less successful; we've averaged a spend in excess of Arsenal and everyone else and been more successful during the period 2004 - 2009;

- The backing managers thing is results orientated nonsense. When teams win a league everything is positive and rosy, you see them celebrating and unified more often because they won more games than everyone else. I mean, anyone who watched Liverpool eviscerate Real Madrid and Utd in quick succession last season and didn't feel the love isn't paying attention;

- As for the board room stuff, so much is blown out of proportion by a scandal hungry media that it naturally affects people's perceptions;



LOOK AT THE POINTS TOTAL. THEY FINISHED WITH 91 ****ING POINTS. LIVERPOOL BEAT THEM THE TWO TIMES THEY PLAYED. HOW IS ANY OF THAT LIVERPOOL'S / BENITEZ'S FAULT???

You can call last year's Utd team what you like, but they took care of business with style.



Pick one:

- the six years under Houllier;
- the five years under Benitez;

Ye all are so quick to forget the astounding competitiveness in the CL.



No, points totals are the be all and end all. Of course football is not played in a vacuum, but points totals are the black and white measuring stick at the end of a season - the only meaningful barometer of what you achieved in the league. When Benitez is achieving an average in this regard that is pulling closer to the average that teams who win the league achieve it is absolutely progress.

You don't win titles based on average points. Forget about it.

We beat United twice last year, correct. And that kinds proves the point that they weren't as good as they had been previously. Rafa's selections and tactics during the run of draws cost us dearly last season, hence that's where the blame comes into it for him.


And Chelsea and Man City are the only teams to have outspent us in the Rafa years, we're miles ahead of United on spending in the last five years. Yet we still can't catch them.

Warper

The competitiveness in the CL has dwindled over the past few seasons because of the enormous amount of cash being pumped into the PL. Other European countries cannot compete and are falling further and further behind which further illustrates Liverpool's plight. The top 4 in the PL have almost taken it for granted to get to the semi's and quarters such their advantage in revenue. Only Real and Barca can match them. Real with cash and Barca with truely brilliant players coming through their academy.

SlickRic

midget lord wrote: »

You are still not addressing the startling inadequacies of this season.

these have been addressed.

endlessly.

we know we've been sh*t.

but the argument here is that it's within the context of general progression.

that doesn't absolve him from this season's performances, but it should give him at least until the end of the season to prove he is the man to make things right.

LuckyLloyd

midget lord wrote: »

Of course I realise that there have been seasons prior to this, perhaps you should try to be a little less condescending.

Right now I can only judge this season on what has transpired so far and that is not progression. Obviously you can qualify your previous statement and say that we have made progession season on season up to this season and that is completely true. However, if you were to look at Rafa's time in anfield in its entirety then this season is a massive step back. We have already lost many more matches than we did last season, in all competitions and the standard of football is really poor. We are also gone out of the CL earlier than in any other season under Rafa's tenure.

Up to this season I was one of the biggest Rafaites out there, supporting every bonkers selection and every 70th minute substitution, however I have become completely disillusioned. I realise his hands were tied with regard transfer fees during the summer but it was completely obvious that we needed cover for Torres, he didnt get that cover. When disaster struck and Torres was out injured we were left with very few options up front. The inexperienced N'gog and the overweight Voronin. N'gog is a good lad, but he is not Torres, why then did Rafa persist with playing him up front on his own?

However, for me the most obvious difficulty this season has been out lack of creativity from midfield. We have nothing coming out of Lucas and Mascherano in the middle yet Rafa has played them in the vast majority of games this season. Surely he could see that we needed an additional dimension there? Why not drop Gerrard back to the middle and play Benny Noon in the hole or alongside N'gog?

The problem is that despite turgid performence after turgid performance Rafa would not change things around. He believes in his the tactics he comes up with prior to games and shows too little ability to change things around during the game (Istanbul aside).

I hope he proves me wrong, but right now I cant see any alternative but the future of LFC being without Rafa Benitez.

- the average of losses amongst teams finishing in the top three will exceed all previous seasons by May 2010;

- the only difference in the football being played between now and last season is the competence of our defending. Seriously, we are averaging a similar amount of chances, playing the same style, etc, etc. Benitez is responsible for the defense btw, not going to pretend otherwise. But injuries to Skrtel and Agger and the ever diminishing returns from Carragher are kiboshing him;

- We've played ~22 competitive games this season. We played ~280 in the five years up to this point. A desire to forget a sample of games that outweighs this year by 10:1 is crazy!;

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

i completely agree. read what i said.

it is one of a few factors.

but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as irrelevant.

Its irrelevant to all but those who want to believe the club is "progressing".
They aren't and the league positions are what those points totals lead to.
If you score 70,80 and 91 points in three consecutive years you've had 3 years of progress in points..........however that progress has to be marked against the points totals in the league those years, thats where league position comes in and its the most relevant method of measuring progress.

jank

bayviewclose wrote: »

Wouldnt worry about city. far too many personalities in that team. Adebayor, Ireland, Bellamy. Believe in their own hype too much. race for top four will be tight but really history has shown us that Villa, Spurs and other pretenders cant last the space. Granted Spurs were unlucky one year but im not convinced that any of them are long term candidates for top four at moment.

History may be right but season after season one of those teams will get it right. Could be this season or the next one.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- the average of losses amongst teams finishing in the top three will exceed all previous seasons by May 2010;

- the only difference in the football being played between now and last season is the competence of our defending. Seriously, we are averaging a similar amount of chances, playing the same style, etc, etc. Benitez is responsible for the defense btw, not going to pretend otherwise. But injuries to Skrtel and Agger and the ever diminishing returns from Carragher are kiboshing him;

- We've played ~22 competitive games this season. We played ~280 in the five years up to this point. A desire to forget a sample of games that outweighs this year by 10:1 is crazy!;

- Agreed,
- Agreed
- Agree to an extent - however one game, namely the CL final of 05 appears to outweigh almost ANY game of group of games since also.

LuckyLloyd

Rosco1982 wrote: »

You don't win titles based on average points. Forget about it.

We beat United twice last year, correct. And that kinds proves the point that they weren't as good as they had been previously. Rafa's selections and tactics during the run of draws cost us dearly last season, hence that's where the blame comes into it for him.

All of the above doesn't matter. Utd played their own games and got their points in. How do Rafa's tactics and selections affect Utd's games?

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

All of the above doesn't matter. Utd played their own games and got their points in. How do Rafa's tactics and selections affect Utd's games?

They don't.

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

Its irrelevant to all but those who want to believe the club is "progressing".
They aren't and the league positions are what those points totals lead to.
If you score 70,80 and 91 points in three consecutive years you've had 3 years of progress in points..........however that progress has to be marked against the points totals in the league those years, thats where league position comes in and its the most relevant method of measuring progress.

i could easily say points totals are only irrelevant to those who want to believe the club isn't progressing.

it is of course relevant.

we had been getting closer, points-wise, to the club who wins the league year on year.

that has to be taken into consideration. it's not the be all end all by any stretch, but it is an important consideration.

jank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It frankly amazes me that someone could believe that Gus Hiddink is a realistic option for Liverpool or City. I guess I should thank you though, the above is a perfect illustration of what logic is up against in this debate.

Why Sage of all footballing knowledge do tell us why he would not go to Man City even though the man himself is on record on saying he would consider the job. (once the price is right!!)
If Liverpool cant afford him well thats their problem but shows you the mistake it was to offer Rafa that massive contract last year!

ilovelamp2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

All of the above doesn't matter. Utd played their own games and got their points in. How do Rafa's tactics and selections affect Utd's games?

All of the above doesn't matter ? haha

Why would you try to make it sound like I'm making a stupid point that clearly I'm not making ?

We beat United because they weren't great, and we were better. Had Rafa picked stronger teams and been a bit less cautious against all the poor teams we drew against, we'd have won the league. He recognised that himself this summer, but we haven't got our changes right and our team is completely unbalanced.

Just to clear up your confusion Rafa's tactics only have an effect on United when we're playing United.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sigh, it's all relative:





No, points totals are the be all and end all. Of course football is not played in a vacuum, but points totals are the black and white measuring stick at the end of a season - the only meaningful barometer of what you achieved in the league. When Benitez is achieving an average in this regard that is pulling closer to the average that teams who win the league achieve it is absolutely progress.

I've corrected your post.
Points totals are also all relative.
Your definition of progress is flawed.

midget lord

SlickRic wrote: »

these have been addressed.

endlessly.

we know we've been sh*t.

but the argument here is that it's within the context of general progression.

that doesn't absolve him from this season's performances, but it should give him at least until the end of the season to prove he is the man to make things right.

General progression is fine, but we have not continued that progression into this season. Its not much of an extension to say that we will not progress again this season. Its already obvious that we will take a massive step back this season while the likes of Villa and City improve in very different ways.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- the average of losses amongst teams finishing in the top three will exceed all previous seasons by May 2010;

- the only difference in the football being played between now and last season is the competence of our defending. Seriously, we are averaging a similar amount of chances, playing the same style, etc, etc. Benitez is responsible for the defense btw, not going to pretend otherwise. But injuries to Skrtel and Agger and the ever diminishing returns from Carragher are kiboshing him;

- We've played ~22 competitive games this season. We played ~280 in the five years up to this point. A desire to forget a sample of games that outweighs this year by 10:1 is crazy!;

But whats happening at the moment is whats most important. As mentioned above we will not continue to progress this season while some of the other sides in the league are improving. If it comes to the end of the season and we are outside the CL spots I will not be consoled if our average points hall has continued to improve.

LuckyLloyd

midget lord wrote: »

You are still not addressing the startling inadequacies of this season.

Let's say you were a large business owner and you employed a manager to oversee a section of your business. For five financial years in a row the manager does a good job, pushes that section of your business in the right direction and achieves certain numbers that had never previously been achieved by that part of your company. Towards the end of the fifth financial year, you reward him with a good 5 year contract as a reward for the excellent overall contribution he has made to your business.

Now in year six, your business is facing severe financial pressures due to extremely debilitating economic conditions. Those conditions impact negatively on the section of the business your manager is overseeing. His performance approaching half way in the financial year falls short of expectations, and you can see that he is under strain. However, you are certainly to blame (at least partially) for the disappointing results and it is difficult to identify a potential replacement that would represent an upgrade in ability over the current manager.

Do you:

- remember the good work achieved over a large body of work and allow the manager time to turn things around;
- panic and sack him for the sake of it;

?

Warper

What it essentially boils down to is Liverpool are facing their most important season in a long time. With Man City being flooded with cash it is imperative that Rafa gets them into the Top 4. They need it for the revenue and also they stop City getting into the CL so they postpone more top class players moving to City as they wont have CL football.