Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

i could easily say points totals are only irrelevant to those who want to believe the club isn't progressing.

it is of course relevant.

we had been getting closer, points-wise, to the club who wins the league year on year.

that has to be taken into consideration. it's not the be all end all by any stretch, but it is an important consideration.

Lets move the goal posts again,
we've moved from, league position being progress to points totals and now to points being eventual winners........ maybe we actually have a winner here.
I havent looked at it, but perhaps you've a "point" there.
If Rafa has been reducing the gap to first place in the league year on year, fair play, argument won. You've found the yardstick that proves the year on year point.

LuckyLloyd

Rosco1982 wrote: »

All of the above doesn't matter ? haha

Why would you try to make it sound like I'm making a stupid point that clearly I'm not making ?

We beat United because they weren't great, and we were better. Had Rafa picked stronger teams and been a bit less cautious against all the poor teams we drew against, we'd have won the league. He recognised that himself this summer, but we haven't got our changes right and our team is completely unbalanced.

Just to clear up your confusion Rafa's tactics only have an effect on United when we're playing United.

So 86 points was poor is what you're saying? Not getting 92 or more is not good enough? And 91 from Utd was "average"?

SlickRic

midget lord wrote: »

General progression is fine, but we have not continued that progression into this season. Its not much of an extension to say that we will not progress again this season. Its already obvious that we will take a massive step back this season while the likes of Villa and City improve in very different ways.

couldn't agree more.

the start has not been a sign of progression at all.

from our lack of a plan B tactically, to our lack of other options up front.

but the absolute key question in all of this is, if you want to sack him, is;

1. when is the best time to let him go?

2. who realistically comes in?

we can't just let him go without some sort of plan of action, considering we're broke, they're all rafa's players and staff, and he's on a long contract that will need to be compensated.

kippy

I've been beaten into a pulp on this thread in the last few minutes.
Cheers for a good discussion people, I think Liverpool fans may have found the progression answer out of it.
I'll be back here after the next poor result, which I honestly hope isnt anytime in the next few months.

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

Lets move the goal posts again,
we've moved from, league position being progress to points totals and now to points being eventual winners........ maybe we actually have a winner here.
I havent looked at it, but perhaps you've a "point" there.
If Rafa has been reducing the gap to first place in the league year on year, fair play, argument won. You've found the yardstick that proves the year on year point.

it's not a case of argument 'won'.

it's a case of it's not all as simple as it seems in terms of measuring progress.

in general, league positions have been improving.

and points totals have been improving.

there are a lot of factors, many of which we haven't mentioned this evening.

LuckyLloyd

jank wrote: »

Why Sage of all footballing knowledge do tell us why he would not go to Man City even though the man himself is on record on saying he would consider the job. (once the price is right!!)
If Liverpool cant afford him well thats their problem but shows you the mistake it was to offer Rafa that massive contract last year!

When did he say that? Would it be fair to say that subsequent quotes from him appeared to cast doubt over the previous statement?

Hiddink is 63, how many years in the tank? Does he have the appetite and energy for a lengthy club project?

---

Benitez's contract was an appropriate reward for his performance and achievements during the previous contract; and appropriate in a relative sense when you compare his record and abilities to his peers. If buying that contract out is too expensive then the problem is the financial might of the owners and club rather than the contract itself.

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

I've been beaten into a pulp on this thread in the last few minutes.
Cheers for a good discussion people, I think Liverpool fans may have found the progression answer out of it.
I'll be back here after the next poor result, which I honestly hope isnt anytime in the next few months.

genuinely, it has been good.

your points definitely moved things along, without ever resorting to cheap digs.

i hope, if anything, we've discovered that absolutely nothing is black and white at all.

daithijjj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So 86 points was poor is what you're saying? Not getting 92 or more is not good enough? And 91 from Utd was "average"?

Id argue the point that we threw away points in fairness, we had a nice lead over the pack, united went away to the club championships and didnt lose 1 point on that lead and gained 2/3/4 games to get themselves back into it due to our shortcomings during that part of the season.

Only when it was unravalling in front of benitez eyes did he let the team 'play' in the last 10/12 league games. His tactics are grand away from home, at home his formations are over defensive imo.

LuckyLloyd

daithijjj wrote: »

Id argue the point that we threw away points in fairness, we had a nice lead over the pack, united went away to the club championships and didnt lose 1 point on that lead and gained 2/3/4 games to get themselves back into it due to our shortcomings during that part of the season.

Only when it was unravalling in front of benitez eyes did he let the team 'play' in the last 10/12 league games. His tactics are grand away from home, at home his formations are over defensive imo.

This is the problem though, you're demanding perfection with this line of reasoning!! That is not a realistic goal. If at the start of last season I had offered any Liverpool fan a final total of 86 points they would have snapped my arm off. We can talk about the 5 games where points were dropped, but when doing that it is disingenuous to ignore the 5 or more games where points were gained in a manner beyond the club in previous seasons.

And as much as it pains me to say it, Utd were magnificent at grinding out the results. The argument that they were "lucky" or unimpressive or whatever just doesn't stand up for me. They got 91 points when it was all said and done, with some money time comebacks.

Every team (well apart from Arsenal in 2003 / 4!!) lose games / drop points / have poor games. The desire to always boil things down to the winners being perfect and the losers being flawed is an incredibly human one - but it is an incorrect one nonetheless. Last season is a story of Liverpool having a very good season, and being pipped by a team in the midst of an excellent season. Looking for the negatives in there is really a rather pointless endeavour.

gosplan

Man am I glad I'm not a Liverpool fan. I imagine that some of the idiocy floating around here must make it hard to be associated to many supporters of your club.

Just to give my tuppence:

Arsne Wenger, I believe, is one of the greatest footballing minds the world has ever known. He's one of the top two managers to work in the premiership. There's really no other way to put it but he's a football genius, practically irreplacable, and a godsend to us Arsenal fans.

Since moneybags Chelsea came on the scene we've won shag all and but for a case of food poisoning, we would have finished outside the top four.

If Benitez goes, who exactly is going to replace him?

Jose Mourinho a good choice? Bar the lucky enough Porto Champions League (knockout matches vrs Depor, Man U, Lyon and Monaco :rolleyes:), has he shown he can win things without outspending people? Could he take on Chelsea and now Man City's money?

I think he's probably the best candidate, one you'll never get, and I still don't think you should swap.

If Rafa stays, there's obviously a chance you won't make the Champions League for a year but I imagine Liverpool would be back.

If he goes, what happens? Will you make it this year?

Also, in international terms. Rafa is Liverpool. The glory years remembered so fondly in these islands aren't really known about abroad. Liverpool burst on the scene in 2005 and Rafa's a big part of their appeal. If Rafa goes and Liverpool finish outside the top five, why exactly would they be a more tempting option for players than City?

Additionally you'd lose Mascherano and Torres - Gerrard's only got a couple of years left. Doesn't sound to enticing to be honest.

No, Rafa's still building a squad. He hasn't always made the right buys but Fergie doesn't really have a brilliant record in that department either. What Fergie had the last few years was Ronaldo and if Rafa ever stumbles on one of them, he'll have ensured that the team around him are good enough to bring Liverpool to the title.

Honestly, I think that if Rafa went, chances are Liverpool would go the way of Tottenham or Newcastle.

Last point - Liverpool haven't even hit first gear yet this season. They're five points off fourth. Chelsea dropped five points in the last two games.

monkey9

kippy wrote: »

Indeed there were and there will be.

Liverpool have only finished outside the top 4 in the league 5 times in the 17 year history of the PL.
The MAIN reason Rafa has rarely failed to qualify for Europe in relation to his predecessors is more to do with the PL getting more CL spots than anything else and I think Liverpool fans sometimes forget this in the haze of Rafa's PR.

I dont get the year on year "progress" that Rafa has had, anyone that can read a graph would see it hasnt been year on year progress.

You could also argue that it's harder to finish in the top four nowadays because of the competition for them as opposed to before when a fourth place wasnt a Champions League place so you weren't pushed quite as intensely!
With the money in the Premier League now, it's a lot more competitive!

jank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

When did he say that? Would it be fair to say that subsequent quotes from him appeared to cast doubt over the previous statement?

Hiddink is 63, how many years in the tank? Does he have the appetite and energy for a lengthy club project?

---

Benitez's contract was an appropriate reward for his performance and achievements during the previous contract; and appropriate in a relative sense when you compare his record and abilities to his peers. If buying that contract out is too expensive then the problem is the financial might of the owners and club rather than the contract itself.

Listen to the Sunday supplement podcast from 2 weeks ago.

What quotes are these you are on about.

You should never rule anything out in football especially when there is big money involved. And yes I believe he does have the appetite for it, if he didnt why did he take the Chelsea job for a few months?

You can now get off your high horse!:D

monkey9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ye all are so quick to forget the astounding competitiveness in the CL.

This is a great point. For, while we haven't been winning the league just like other seasons before Rafa, at least our seasons have lasted longer than most under Rafa compared to the previous twelve or so years!!

LuckyLloyd

jank wrote: »

Listen to the Sunday supplement podcast from 2 weeks ago.

What quotes are these you are on about.

You should never rule anything out in football especially when there is big money involved. And yes I believe he does have the appetite for it, if he didnt why did he take the Chelsea job for a few months?

You can now get off your high horse!:D

Eh, how does a short stint with a pre - defined end prove that he has an appetite for a long term club project?

Xavi6

bayviewclose wrote: »

Wouldnt worry about city. far too many personalities in that team. Adebayor, Ireland, Bellamy. Believe in their own hype too much

Please elaborate, particularly on your insinuation that Ireland is some sort of negative influence at the club, because, as usual, I don't believe you have a clue what you're on about.

daithijjj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is the problem though, you're demanding perfection with this line of reasoning!! That is not a realistic goal. If at the start of last season I had offered any Liverpool fan a final total of 86 points they would have snapped my arm off. We can talk about the 5 games where points were dropped, but when doing that it is disingenuous to ignore the 5 or more games where points were gained in a manner beyond the club in previous seasons.

And as much as it pains me to say it, Utd were magnificent at grinding out the results. The argument that they were "lucky" or unimpressive or whatever just doesn't stand up for me. They got 91 points when it was all said and done, with some money time comebacks.

Every team (well apart from Arsenal in 2003 / 4!!) lose games / drop points / have poor games. The desire to always boil things down to the winners being perfect and the losers being flawed is an incredibly human one - but it is an incorrect one nonetheless. Last season is a story of Liverpool having a very good season, and being pipped by a team in the midst of an excellent season. Looking for the negatives in there is really a rather pointless endeavour.

Fair points. Im not demanding perfection though. What i do demand of a liverpool manager is the ability to change things when they are not working. I saw the 90 mins at home to boro home and away last season (i saw all the league games but il just talk about these 2 games). The game at home we were so so bad it was like souness was in charge again, we robbed a team at home 2-1, the team were brutal. We could have easily lost home and away to a team that got relegated. There was other occasions like away at stoke where benitez just made the wrong decisions. I agree its a pointless endeavour now and i dont post in this thread ever because i think its a 'dick' swining contest in here.

The point im essentially making is that we had a hell of alot of luck last season, theres no point denying this, and united had luck too, but its the same methods that benitez uses time and time again, regardless of results. He sets up the team in a fashion every single week that the opposion know is coming, he appears to have no other ideas, he never throws out a 'curve ball'. His team is set up to win the ball back rather than use when we have it, you only need to look at the wings to see this. This is why we had so many 'grinds' during dec-jan. We are easy to defend against if you set up to defend against us like many teams coming to anfield and i cant recall any occasion where he has changed formation mid game. His pre game tactics are ok, his in-game tactics are pretty inept imo.

jank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eh, how does a short stint with a pre - defined end prove that he has an appetite for a long term club project?

How does it prove he has not?

Basically you told me I was stupid to even contemplate the fact that Hiddinck would go to Man city or Liverpool but it remains a fairly large possibility given all things are equal. Of course questions remain but isnt that the case with ALL managers?

So you can now get off your high horse.

CHD

Ush1 wrote: »

OR maybe they should sack him, hence point of the thread.

Or you just fail and your here to have a dig. You still haven't answered the question I put to you.

mormank

jank wrote: »

No not the press conference itself but the bad run of matches that came after it that undid the title challenge.

ok so you are blaming the bad run of results after that press conference on rafa saying what he did then?? how on earth can you be so sure that if rafa said nothing we wouldve done better in those games?? it is circumstantial at best methinks...

mormank

kippy wrote: »

You missed the middle years........nice way of just forgetting them but they werent year on year progress.
As for the points haul, we to be honest, points haul is a bit of a "moot point" to borrow a phrase used earlier.
The PL is not a one team league, you are not battling against yourself year on year, you are battling against other teams......their points haul is what matters, if yours doesnt beat theirs you wont beat them in the league......

ok so in that case you must be willing to accept that there can indeed be an improvement year on year in the league without that necessarily reflecting league position or points total?? eg, liverpool being an average side and finishing 5th 4th one year, next year liverpool becoming an above average side but due to even bigger improvements by the other top 3 liverpool still finish 4th even though they themselves have improved as a team in the league...if it werent for the other teams improving so much more we wouldve finished higher...for example if ronnie had have left for madrid in 08 instead of 09 benitez and co would probably be league champions right now with the exact same team that finished second last year...funny that

LuckyLloyd

jank wrote: »

How does it prove he has not?

Basically you told me I was stupid to even contemplate the fact that Hiddinck would go to Man city or Liverpool but it remains a fairly large possibility given all things are equal. Of course questions remain but isnt that the case with ALL managers?

So you can now get off your high horse.

It doesn't prove he has not, but the reality remains that he has avoided club football for the best part of a decade at this stage. The Chelsea stint demonstrates the close links he enjoys with Roman Abramovich. Liverpool can't afford him; and I just don't believe he goes to City where the aim would be toppling Roman's wagon. Finally, a number of interesting International jobs are sure to open up in a few months when the WC is concluded, and he will be the most prized asset on the market for a major nation's International side.

davyjose

Xavi6 wrote: »

Please elaborate, particularly on your insinuation that Ireland is some sort of negative influence at the club, because, as usual, I don't believe you have a clue what you're on about.

Don't worry Xavi, everyone in this country knows what a non-assh0le stephen ireland is. He's definitely not an assh0le. Not at all. <cough>

Spiritoftheseventies

Xavi6 wrote: »

Please elaborate, particularly on your insinuation that Ireland is some sort of negative influence at the club, because, as usual, I don't believe you have a clue what you're on about.

Ireland is a good player but like I said he does have his moments of eccentricity.

Ush1

CHD wrote: »

Or you just fail and you're here to have a dig. You still haven't answered the question I put to you.

*sigh*
You haven't answered my question either genius, how have I "failed" the mighty CHD test exactly??
Have a dig, at who exactly pray tell?

The Muppet

davyjose wrote: »

Don't worry Xavi, everyone in this country knows what a non-assh0le stephen ireland is. He's definitely not an assh0le. Not at all. <cough>

I don't think he's an asshole but that's not what was being discussed. Is he a negative influence on City? I don't believe he is.

Ush1

Never read of Ireland causing trouble at City. I'd say he's a managers dream for Hughes, and no international duty to boot!

Spiritoftheseventies

Ush1 wrote: »

Never read of Ireland causing trouble at City. I'd say he's a managers dream for Hughes, and no international duty to boot!

That growth on his chin is really annoying

Ush1

bayviewclose wrote: »

That growth on his chin is really annoying

Ha, it is abit. I suppose you could say his entire gormless demeanour could be irritating. Maybe that's why City aren't starting him as much.

Spiritoftheseventies

daithijjj wrote: »

Fair points. Im not demanding perfection though. What i do demand of a liverpool manager is the ability to change things when they are not working. I saw the 90 mins at home to boro home and away last season (i saw all the league games but il just talk about these 2 games). The game at home we were so so bad it was like souness was in charge again, we robbed a team at home 2-1, the team were brutal. We could have easily lost home and away to a team that got relegated. There was other occasions like away at stoke where benitez just made the wrong decisions. I agree its a pointless endeavour now and i dont post in this thread ever because i think its a 'dick' swining contest in here.

The point im essentially making is that we had a hell of alot of luck last season, theres no point denying this, and united had luck too, but its the same methods that benitez uses time and time again, regardless of results. He sets up the team in a fashion every single week that the opposion know is coming, he appears to have no other ideas, he never throws out a 'curve ball'. His team is set up to win the ball back rather than use when we have it, you only need to look at the wings to see this. This is why we had so many 'grinds' during dec-jan. We are easy to defend against if you set up to defend against us like many teams coming to anfield and i cant recall any occasion where he has changed formation mid game. His pre game tactics are ok, his in-game tactics are pretty inept imo.

Yes thats a pretty good summation. This is how I would like to see Liverpool play myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOB7pcqBH-Y

slingerz

Benitez failings in the transfer market have come back to haunt him with the recent run of injuries. I do believe he has now realised what sort of player would flourish in the EPL and also the player who's head would not be turned by Madrid/Barcelona. The targeting of players from the British Isles (Barry, Keane, Johnson) exemplify the point and I think he realises that a more local spine is needed to compliment the foreign influence of Torres etc.

He remains linked to British players in Carlton Cole, Matthew Upson even Scott Parker! I personally believe that Benitez should do more of his squad buying in the local market rather than risk bringing in a cheap foreign recruit wh may not settle/adapt to the EPL.

Those 3 players I mentioned above would improve the squad no end and it can be seen with the likes of Aston Villa and Tottenham having strong squads with a number of players from the UK or having already played in the EPL.

Perhaps it might be too expensive to buy these players all the time but it does make a difference at the end of the day. A cold miserable night in the north of england is more palpable to a British player than a Brazilian after all. Big money signings may work from abroad like Torres but for the squad players like Riera, shopping local may prove to be wiser in the long run

Ush1

slingerz wrote: »

Benitez failings in the transfer market have come back to haunt him with the recent run of injuries. I do believe he has now realised what sort of player would flourish in the EPL and also the player who's head would not be turned by Madrid/Barcelona. The targeting of players from the British Isles (Barry, Keane, Johnson) exemplify the point and I think he realises that a more local spine is needed to compliment the foreign influence of Torres etc.

He remains linked to British players in Carlton Cole, Matthew Upson even Scott Parker! I personally believe that Benitez should do more of his squad buying in the local market rather than risk bringing in a cheap foreign recruit wh may not settle/adapt to the EPL.

Those 3 players I mentioned above would improve the squad no end and it can be seen with the likes of Aston Villa and Tottenham having strong squads with a number of players from the UK or having already played in the EPL.

Perhaps it might be too expensive to buy these players all the time but it does make a difference at the end of the day. A cold miserable night in the north of england is more palpable to a British player than a Brazilian after all. Big money signings may work from abroad like Torres but for the squad players like Riera, shopping local may prove to be wiser in the long run

Decent point, perhaps what's effecting Arsenal at this point also.

Xavi6

bayviewclose wrote: »

That growth on his chin is really annoying

Yep, just as I suspected. Another clueless response. Here's a thought - maybe only make claims when you can back them up. It might just work.

Spiritoftheseventies

Xavi6 wrote: »

Yep, just as I suspected. Another clueless response. Here's a thought - maybe only make claims when you can back them up. It might just work.

Not a stephen Ireland thread anyway. And was not singling him out for any special attention. But again look at the team. Bellamy, Adebayor, and Ireland. A few loose cannons there. Ireland has his good days and bad days but collectively the three may prove an unsettling influence. Would guess that one or two of them wont be there in two weeks time.

Xavi6

bayviewclose wrote: »

Not a stephen Ireland thread anyway. And was not singling him out for any special attention. But again look at the team. Bellamy, Adebayor, and Ireland. A few loose cannons there. Ireland has his good days and bad days but collectively the three may prove an unsettling influence. Would guess that one or two of them wont be there in two weeks time.

Lol at you playing the off topic card when you mentioned in the first place. You still have not given a reason to back up your claims that Ireland is a negative influence at the club. Instead you made a dig at his appearance. Says it all really. If you do have a valid reason though then feel free to send it to me by PM.

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

Bellamy, Adebayor, and Ireland.

Bellamy has never unsettled a club as far as i can remember. he's a little sh*t on th pitch at times, but that's a different story.

Adebayor loves money and being loved. he's fine at Man City. he was fine at Arsenal for years until he wanted more money, made it public, the fans resented him (rightly imo), then he left. he's the most likely though of the three to cause any disruption in the future.

Ireland? ok, he can be a bit weird. i don't think he's ever disrupted any dressing room ever.

_______________________________________________________________

slingerz, i think that's a good point about UK players and foreign players. that does seem to be a road Rafa has realised he needs to start going down more frequently.

Warper

bayviewclose wrote: »

Not a stephen Ireland thread anyway. And was not singling him out for any special attention. But again look at the team. Bellamy, Adebayor, and Ireland. A few loose cannons there. Ireland has his good days and bad days but collectively the three may prove an unsettling influence. Would guess that one or two of them wont be there in two weeks time.

Dont forget they have great players in Robinho, Tevez, Barry etc.

City dont look like they will make the Top 4 this year but they should definitely make it next year. It will be between Arsenal and Liverpool to see who drops out and all indications are that it will be Liverpool. Whoever it is, it will take money to get them back into the top 4 and Arsenal seem to be more financially stable. Rafa cannot do anything now if he has no money but if he knew he had no money, then to go spend £18m on a dodgy fullback in Johnson beggars belief.

MementoMori

Someone was asking about Transferleague not being a reliable source.

Checking the prices I have versus their prices for the transfers for the period covering Rafa's time at the club, I ended up with a difference of £21,479,150. Basically I have a net spend of £71,920,850 for Rafa's period in charge whereas transferleague have a net spend of £93,400,000.

Now I'm not claiming 100% accuracy for the figures and there are some reasonable reasons for the variance but I have a lot more faith in my figures than the transferleague ones.

One area where there is an immediate variable is the Torres figure. Basically I go with the £20m figure whereas they use the £26.5m figure. If £20m is good enough for the Liverpool site and the BBC it's good enough for me.

Another area where there is a variance is the figure for Keane's sale back to Spurs. The site uses the figure of £12m, whereas I use the figure of £16m. I have some sympathy for the site in this case, as the base figure was £12m with £4m being payable once Spurs didn't get relegated. Given the BBC, Times and the Guardian also go with the £16m I have no qualms whatsoever in using it. It is worth pointing out that this is the only place where any element of an add-on is used in my figures. However there is a reported other £3m in add-ons involved in the Keane deal so I think in the interest of fairness £16m is the best figure to use.

These two deals account for £10.5m of the difference. However that still leaves a difference of £10,979,150. This is pretty much all accounted for by either variance in prices/omission of transfers, or the fact that the site simply uses signed/undisclosed in a number of cases, which effectively puts a zero valuation in a number of cases. Interestingly under Rafa's time peiod there were 9 buys and 11 sells where this applied. Generally these were smaller deals but it is interesting to note that the number of cases where a zero figure was used is tilted against Rafa in that 11 sales were given a value of zero whereas 9 buys were given a value of zero.

Getting transfer prices right is at best a tricky business with a lot of best guess estimates. However if the site can't actually accurately track the players who come and go from a club, which is about a thousand times easier, how can people reasonably put into any trust into the actual figures. The sale of Diarra is simply not included in the transferleague figures.
While forgetting Alou Diarra maybe somewhat reasonable in terms of his impact on the pitch given the fact that he never actually lined out for Liverpool forgetting about completely him in terms of tracking transfers is pretty poor especially since he netted £1.98m

There is also the case there a number of the prices they have are simply wrong. One example is Heskey, which the site mentions as going for £6.25m
However the figure I used was £3.5m which I got from the BBC which says that Heskey went for £3.5m, which could have rise to £6.25m. When Birmingham were relegated, Karen Brady made a statement about not have to pay £1.5m to Liverpool. Anyway the base figure of £3.5m is what I've included in the figure even though it looks like the money received by Liverpool was most likely somewhere in the region of £4.5m. If the site used the figure of £3.5m for Heskey it would push the variance in the net spending even higher (Basically it would increase the site's net spend figure by £2.75m pushing it up to £96,150,000)

There are also a number of other transfers with questionable prices in terms of prices, but it would simply be a case of more of them same. Anyway my point is that overall transferleague is not a reliable source.

In terms of net spend there is a fair old difference between £72m and £94m.
In essence you are talking about the simple addition of at least one world-class player to the squad, but more likely you're looking at the the ability to upgrade a number of squad position i.e instead of having three players on free transfers, you could have one £10m player plus two £5m players.

Spiritoftheseventies

Warper wrote: »

Dont forget they have great players in Robinho, Tevez, Barry etc.

City dont look like they will make the Top 4 this year but they should definitely make it next year. It will be between Arsenal and Liverpool to see who drops out and all indications are that it will be Liverpool. Whoever it is, it will take money to get them back into the top 4 and Arsenal seem to be more financially stable. Rafa cannot do anything now if he has no money but if he knew he had no money, then to go spend £18m on a dodgy fullback in Johnson beggars belief.

Yes City have some good players in there but question is can they break up the big four and really think it would be good to see a big six.
I have said before that giving English teams an extra team in Europe has given Rafa a comfort zone. It is easy enought to make the top four given the gap between United chelsea and rest of the pack. We have lost six games and still could qualify if we put a decent run after christmas which we normally do.
Three places should be enough and it would also help out the other European leagues. I think you look at a team like Shelbourne who were that close to making the knockout stages a few seasons ago.
But UEFA make it very hard for the small clubs who could do with the revenue.

Kess73

bayviewclose wrote: »

Not a stephen Ireland thread anyway. And was not singling him out for any special attention. But again look at the team. Bellamy, Adebayor, and Ireland. A few loose cannons there. Ireland has his good days and bad days but collectively the three may prove an unsettling influence. Would guess that one or two of them wont be there in two weeks time.

Have to be honest here, as a Liverpool supporter I would love to see Bellamy back. Him playing on our left like he often does for City would solve a lot of problems. Rate him quite highly.


As for Ireland, I guess the only way to look at him is from a City fan's pov. If he plays well for their team and does not cause hassle, why should City fans give a rat's ass what he says elsewhere? I think a lot of people's view on him are coloured by the whole international thing coupled with the pics of him in that Range Rover from a few years back.

Would also have him in the current LFC squad over Lucas.

The only one of the three that I reckon could have any sort of negative impact over time is Adebayor and it is not as though City don't have plenty of replacements for him in their current squad.

Spiritoftheseventies

SlickRic wrote: »

Bellamy has never unsettled a club as far as i can remember. he's a little sh*t on th pitch at times, but that's a different story.

Adebayor loves money and being loved. he's fine at Man City. he was fine at Arsenal for years until he wanted more money, made it public, the fans resented him (rightly imo), then he left. he's the most likely though of the three to cause any disruption in the future.

Ireland? ok, he can be a bit weird. i don't think he's ever disrupted any dressing room ever.

_______________________________________________________________

slingerz, i think that's a good point about UK players and foreign players. that does seem to be a road Rafa has realised he needs to start going down more frequently.

What you mean Bellamy has never been unsettled at club. Do the words Nine Iron Riise and freeze out mean anything to you

Warper

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes City have some good players in there but question is can they break up the big four and really think it would be good to see a big six.
I have said before that giving English teams an extra team in Europe has given Rafa a comfort zone. It is easy enought to make the top four given the gap between United chelsea and rest of the pack. We have lost six games and still could qualify if we put a decent run after christmas which we normally do.
Three places should be enough and it would also help out the other European leagues. I think you look at a team like Shelbourne who were that close to making the knockout stages a few seasons ago.
But UEFA make it very hard for the small clubs who could do with the revenue.

It is only a matter of time before City get into the Top 4. As I said probably not this year but they will next year. I dont think Hughes (as much as i like the guy) is the man for City. I can see them changing coaches in the summer if they dont make the Top 4 and they will go for one of the top names like Mourinho or Hiddink. With their financial backing once they get into the Top 4 they will become a permanent Top 4 side, up there with Chelsea and Utd which leaves Arsenal or Liverpool out in the cold and tbh thats good for the PL.

Spiritoftheseventies

Warper wrote: »

It is only a matter of time before City get into the Top 4. As I said probably not this year but they will next year. I dont think Hughes (as much as i like the guy) is the man for City. I can see them changing coaches in the summer if they dont make the Top 4 and they will go for one of the top names like Mourinho or Hiddink. With their financial backing once they get into the Top 4 they will become a permanent Top 4 side, up there with Chelsea and Utd which leaves Arsenal or Liverpool out in the cold and tbh thats good for the PL.

Looking at City squad, Bellamy wont be there for too long, Given maybe three or four seasons, Adebayor will move on again. So they will have to pump a bit more money in the club.

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

Looking at City squad, Bellamy wont be there for too long, Given maybe three or four seasons, Adebayor will move on again. So they will have to pump a bit more money in the club.

there's no basis for any of this.

especially Given.

one of the most loyal players ever.

ctrl-alt-delete

bayviewclose wrote: »

What you mean Bellamy has never been unsettled at club. Do the words Nine Iron Riise and freeze out mean anything to you

And the time at Newcastle with Shearer,

but i think if Hughes proved anything at Blackburn is that he can get the best out of Bellamy, and nobody can question that this season.

Spiritoftheseventies

SlickRic wrote: »

there's no basis for any of this.

especially Given.

one of the most loyal players ever.

Did i question Givens loyalty. And how clubs has Bellamy had. Saw him in a game against Fulham were Duff got that goal. Didnt even attempt to put in challenge even though he was five yards away.

The Muppet

MementoMori wrote: »

Someone was asking about Transferleague not being a reliable source.

Checking the prices I have versus their prices for the transfers for the period covering Rafa's time at the club, I ended up with a difference of £21,479,150. Basically I have a net spend of £71,920,850 for Rafa's period in charge whereas transferleague have a net spend of £93,400,000.

Now I'm not claiming 100% accuracy for the figures and there are some reasonable reasons for the variance but I have a lot more faith in my figures than the transferleague ones.

One area where there is an immediate variable is the Torres figure. Basically I go with the £20m figure whereas they use the £26.5m figure. If £20m is good enough for the Liverpool site and the BBC it's good enough for me.

Another area where there is a variance is the figure for Keane's sale back to Spurs. The site uses the figure of £12m, whereas I use the figure of £16m. I have some sympathy for the site in this case, as the base figure was £12m with £4m being payable once Spurs didn't get relegated. Given the BBC, Times and the Guardian also go with the £16m I have no qualms whatsoever in using it...........................................

Interetsing post but it raises a few questions.

Torres is a contentious transfer. Apparantly he had a release clause of £27 million, At the time of his sale sources including the liverpool echo reported the higher value. Garcia who cost liverpool £6 million went teh other way as part of the deal whic confuses teh issue further. It's not unreasonable to surmise that Torres cost £20 million plues gacia's £6 million to give the total of £26 million.

Re Robbie Keane you say the BBC quoted his sale at £16 million and that thats good enough for you, could you provide a link for this because the transferleague provides a link to the BBC giving the £12 million valuation they use.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/7861523.stm

The article does mention add ons but they are unlikly to be met if Keane is on his way out at Tottenham as rumoured.


Did you include the purchase of Djbril Cisse in your figuires?

Do you have links to support the values you gave to the player listed as undisclosed on transfer league?

Spiritoftheseventies

btw how much has been paid off to Roma on Aqualani aquisition.Heard they were still waiting on next installment

mormank

Warper wrote: »

The main reason Liverpool finished second last year was because Chelsea were in crisis - simple as. That is why Scolari was sacked half-way through the season. Once Hiddink came in Chelsea were reformed, playing at a much higher standard than Liverpool. I think the main thing here is Liverpool have a Top 4 squad which is why people are questioning Rafa.

For Liverpool to finish third in a group containing a team currently mid-table in France, a team currently mid-table in Serie A and the woeful Debrecen (who Liverpool beat 1-0 at Anfield) highlights the current state of the club. And then you have them 12 pts off the top languishing in 7th place in the League yet Rafa is still the man - wake up people.

oh my goodness..if one more person attributes liverpools second place finish to every other bloody team in the league being rubbish i'll scream! isnt that the very nature of a league, all the teams play 38 games and then at the end we see who has the most points and they are champs. anytime anybody finished 2nd its because the team in 3rd werent good enough to finish above them!! but to belittle those achievements by saying this is just a joke imo...in that case you can say anytime anyone won the league it was only cos the teams below thme werent good enough to accumulate more points than them...oh wait a sec...

Spiritoftheseventies

mormank wrote: »

oh my goodness..if one more person attributes liverpools second place finish to every other bloody team in the league being rubbish i'll scream! isnt that the very nature of a league, all the teams play 38 games and then at the end we see who has the most points and they are champs. anytime anybody finished 2nd its because the team in 3rd werent good enough to finish above them!! but to belittle those achievements by saying this is just a joke imo...in that case you can say anytime anyone won the league it was only cos the teams below thme werent good enough to accumulate more points than them...oh wait a sec...

Yes its beyond me why this thread is still going. But its all about promoting the negative. We know there are problems at the club but really its not what this thread is about. If pool ever do get their act together it will only because others clubs are struggling. Its a no win situation.

midget lord

For me, the next 8 league games are going to be vital in the career of Rafa Benitez.

Wigan H
Pompey A
Wolves H
Villa A
Spurs H
Stoke A
Wolves A
Bolton H

Two difficult games in there in Spurs and Villa, but they are games that we will need to get a result from if we are to get into 4th spot. If we are to get ourselves back on track then this has to be the time to do it. Three wins on the spin before meeting Villa, a good result there and I expect we will start to see things positively again.