Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

spockety

Headshot wrote: »

not totally true

they could've sold Torres during the summer if they wanted

NabyLadistheman

Boggles wrote: »

At least I can read a league table.

Good for you

NabyLadistheman

Headshot wrote: »

sell Torres for the reported 70m and but another striker for around 30m
and then the rest on the team

Similar to the 80mill United got for Ronaldo - all of the cash would not be re-invested in players

Boggles

torresistheman wrote: »

Similar to the 80mill United got for Ronaldo - all of the cash would not be re-invested in players

What happened the 80 million United got for Ronaldo?

Mr Alan

lads, lets not bring this off topic.

Headshot

I personally think if Rafa didnt win the CL he'd be gone by now

still living of that success imo

NabyLadistheman

Boggles wrote: »

What happened the 80 million United got for Ronaldo?

I don't know I don't support Man United. I know it wasn't all re-invested in players. Thats all. I was using it as an example

Mr Alan

thats kind of a moot point Headshot, considering he did win it.

CHD

Boggles wrote: »

At least I can read a league table.

Only took you 4 posts to get that in! Getting better.!

Liverpool have made a bad start, loads of time for United and Chelsea to have their bad streak/games . I don't think they have enough to win the league but they will push to the end and be in the top 4.

City and Villa will push the top 4 teams but more than likely fade away towards the end. Loads of football left. These kind of threads shouldn't be made til December when things really start to take shape and people can get a better idea of what is to come.

Boggles

torresistheman wrote: »

I don't know I don't support Man United. I know it wasn't all re-invested in players. Thats all. I was using it as an example

Contradicting yourself in the same sentance, brilliant, well done.

Anyways off topic.

---

I always thought Rafa would be under pressure from the start of this season, in the past the fans always had someone else to blame apart from Rafa, as the yanks pointed out last week the buck stops at the Spaniard solely now. He has got his control and he has got a huge salary.

It was always going to be interesting to see how Rafa did react to the pressure, 3 loses on the trott and 5 so early in the season would suggest poorly. A cup was his most realistic target this season IMO, he will have to deliver now as even the most blinkered fanboys will start to swing if Liverpool go under Benitez 4 years without some silverware.

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

thats kind of a moot point Headshot, considering he did win it.

ye're last success was the FA cup in 2005-06 season

no trophy since iirc, how is rafa still there ?

Mr Alan

boggles; they were quite clearly different sentences, the full stop was the give away. he doesnt know where the money went, but he does know one place it didnt go. makes perfect sense.

and on your second point, if George Gillette said it, it must be true.

Headshot; because the return has been in line with the investment in the team & despite the subsequent stopping of that investment, the team has still improved in the league, while doing well in the Champions league.

NabyLadistheman

Boggles wrote: »

Contradicting yourself in the same sentance, brilliant, well done.

Anyways off topic.

Bit rich coming from someone who doesn't know there left hand-side from there right.

Anyways off-topic

---

As I stated in my original post I think people are over-reacting. 7 days is along time in football & things could be alot different this time next week

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

boggles; they were quite clearly different sentences, the full stop was the give away. he doesnt know where the money went, but he does know one place it didnt go. makes perfect sense.

and on your second point, if George Gillette said it, it must be true.

Headshot; because the return has been in line with the investment in the team & despite the subsequent stopping of that investment, the team has still improved in the league, while doing well in the Champions league.

Idk am i mistaken but didnt Gérard Houllier also get 2nd place in the league
and won a cup treble ?

The Muppet

spockety wrote: »

The owners care more about money than they do about winning.

Rafa is a manager who gets the results that keep Liverpool's balance sheet just about as good as it can realistically expected to be.

In money terms, the difference between winning the league and coming 2nd is not all that much. A good stretch in the Champions League will also bring in the dough.

I'd say they're happy enough.

I doubt they are happy with a manger that has allegedly walked out twice and consistently moaned to the press about their lack of support for him. Were they happy with him when they offered Klinsman his job?

The fans in general (maybe not all the ones here ) will not be happy with the level of success you suggest. If the Fans waiver Rafa will be gone, the fans are the reason he is still the Manager.

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

I personally think if Rafa didnt win the CL he'd be gone by now

still living of that success imo

:eek:

seriously?

He got very close to winning the league last year ffs.

he hasn't got the cash united and Chelsea have.

He has had to clean up the mess Houllier had made in the academy.

He's trying to build a successfull team despite the club being in dire straights and being run by 2 men that haven't a clue.

You only have to look at United and how close Fergie was to the chop all them years ago.

Changing your manager every few seasons doesn't help stability.

Mr Alan

Headshot, you are correct. but you know that. if you think Rafa & Houllier are in the same boat, thats fair enough, we'll just agree to disagree.

Spud83

I doubt they can afford to sack Rafa even if they wanted to, so I think unless Rafa decides to walk he will be around for a while yet.

alanmurphy83

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I doubt they can afford to sack Rafa even if they wanted to, so I think unless Rafa decides to walk he will be around for a while yet.

I'd say this is correct. They can't afford to pay him the compo if they did sack him plus there's no way any manager walks these days. Wouldn't that entitle them to sweet FA in compensation?

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Contradicting yourself in the same sentance, brilliant, well done.

Anyways off topic.

---

I always thought Rafa would be under pressure from the start of this season, in the past the fans always had someone else to blame apart from Rafa, as the yanks pointed out last week the buck stops at the Spaniard solely now. He has got his control and he has got a huge salary.

It was always going to be interesting to see how Rafa did react to the pressure, 3 loses on the trott and 5 so early in the season would suggest poorly. A cup was his most realistic target this season IMO, he will have to deliver now as even the most blinkered fanboys will start to swing if Liverpool go under Benitez 4 years without some silverware.

Boggles. you should be hoping he stays around as he isn't bringing us any success !!

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

I doubt they are happy with a manger that has allegedly walked out twice and consistently moaned to the press about their lack of support for him. Were they happy with him when they offered Klinsman his job?

You are definitly on a wind up with that post !!

Boggles

rarnes1 wrote: »

Boggles. you should be hoping he stays around as he isn't bringing us any success !!

I do.

kida

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'd say this is correct. They can't afford to pay him the compo if they did sack him plus there's no way any manager walks these days. Wouldn't that entitle them to sweet FA in compensation?

with a good lawyer he could walk and get a payoff for constructive dismissal

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

Headshot, you are correct. but you know that. if you think Rafa & Houllier are in the same boat, thats fair enough, we'll just agree to disagree.

why are you disagreeing alan ?

im just curious

ntlbell

torresistheman wrote: »

As I stated in my original post I think people are over-reacting. 7 days is along time in football & things could be alot different this time next week

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing this.

in the next 7 days you could possibly be out of the running in the group stages and be 10 points behind the league leaders.

people are talking like next week is a give me.

far from it.

and what then?

if the above happens? rafa's still da man?

what excuse will you roll out after that? what will you look to?

Mr Alan

Headshot wrote: »

why are you disagreeing alan ?

im just curious

because Rafa is working under restrictions that Houllier never did & he is working during a time when the league is far more competitive.

he has built a team which (albeit arguably by some) has a number of players hovering around wat a lot of people call the world class mark.

a team that regularly competes to win the CL & justifiably is regarded as one of the best in Europe. a team that came closer to winning the league last year than at anytime in the last 20 years, despite all the restrictions we were working under.

just because so far this season, we've lost against Sunderland (freak goal) & Aston Villa at home, doesn't change all that. losing against Spurs away & chelsea away were hardly that surprising.

Mr Alan

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing this.

in the next 7 days you could possibly be out of the running in the group stages and be 10 points behind the league leaders.

people are talking like next week is a give me.

far from it.

and what then?

if the above happens? rafa's still da man?

what excuse will you roll out after that? what will you look to?

personally, i don't judge managers on a week, or a couple of results, its done over seasons.

Vampireskiss

LZ5by5 wrote: »

How do you reckon Man U would handle losing Rooney, Berbatov, Vidic, and Giggs?

How do you reckon Arsenal would handle losing Arshavin, Frabregas, Van Persie and Vermaelan?

How do you reckon Chelsea would handles losing Lampard, Terry, Drogba and Essien?

How do you reckon Man City would handle losing Adebayor, Bellamy, Ireland, and Robinho?

How do you reckon Spurs would handle losing Keane, Defoe, Lennon, and Modric?

How do you reckon Villa would handle losing Agbonlahor, Young, Carew and Petrov?

I could go on. Every team has their core group of 3/4 players that make them tick, but it's been a long standing rule in the media that this rule doesn't apply to Liverpool.

Yes but your mentioning 4 players out of each team,of course they will be missed but liverpool are only missing 2 players and if you going to mention alonso being missing aswell, united are also without ronaldo by the way

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

personally, i don't judge managers on a week, or a couple of results, its done over seasons.

well it seems your fellow supporters in this thread do.

but they want to choose the week they do it.

e.g. next week

The Muppet

rarnes1 wrote: »

The Muppet wrote:

I doubt they are happy with a manger that has allegedly walked out twice and consistently moaned to the press about their lack of support for him.

You are definitly on a wind up with that post !!

How is what I said a wind up? what part of what I said in not factually correct?

Crash Bang Wall

Vampireskiss wrote: »

Yes but your mentioning 4 players out of each team,of course they will be missed but liverpool are only missing 2 players and if you going to mention alonso being missing aswell, united are also without ronaldo by the way

Torres Gerrard Alonso/Aquaman.....being 3 and then Mascherano would be the 4th

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

personally, i don't judge managers on a week, or a couple of results, its done over seasons.

Does that apply to a Managers transfer dealings as well? I ask because a number of times recently you have stated that Rafa has not been adequetly funded, a pov that doesn't really hold water if the figures are looked at over his tenure.

Bubs101

LZ5by5 wrote: »

How do you reckon Chelsea would handles losing Lampard, Terry, Drogba and Essien?

.

We'd be fine. We didn't have Essien or Drogba for long periods of last year. All we'd have to do is drop into 4-5-1 lash Alex into the team, midfield of Mikel, Ballack, Malouda,Zhirkov and Cole with Anelka playing up front by himself.

Also, you can't count Aquilani as an integral player who'll be a fixture in your first team. He'll be injured for another few spells after this one

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Does that apply to a Managers transfer dealings as well? I ask because a number of times recently you have stated that Rafa has not been adequetly funded, a pov that doesn't really hold water if the figures are looked at over his tenure.

and round and round we go.

my turn. i'm judging the americans on what they've done over the last 2/3 years. not a couple of weeks.

he has a net spend of around 5m in the last couple of seasons. not good enough.

before that, he had more, but not so much more that he should have built a league winning squad & still comparitively less than the teams we want to overtake were spending at the same time.

keane2097

The Muppet wrote: »

Does that apply to a Managers transfer dealings as well? I ask because a number of times recently you have stated that Rafa has not been adequetly funded, a pov that doesn't really hold water if the figures are looked at over his tenure.

If I may - would you like to respond to any or all of this?

Mr Alan wrote: »

lets look at the players Rafa has signed for any type of money. i think you'll agree that his record is pretty impressive despite wat people would have you believe.

£20+ million:

Torres-unbelievably good buy

£15-20 million:

Mascherano-great buy, mocked at the time about the figure, worth more than twice that now.

Keane-poor buy, ended up costing around 2m-5m depending on reports.

£10-15 million:

Babel-disppointed.

Alonso-brilliant. wanted to leave, sold for 30m plus

£5-10 million:

Dossenna-poor
Riera-good buy
Agger-very good buy
Skrtel-very good buy
Reina-brilliant buy. relatively unheard of, regarded as one of the best in the world now
Benayoun-excellent buy
Leiva-average buy. much mocked, but genuinely scapegoated unfairly. for 5.5m played in some huge games for Liverpool and performed admirably, couple of really poor games, lot of average-decent games, couple of greaet games.
Kuyt-great buy. striker turned one of the best right sided players in the league
Pennant-average, did ok in spells.
Crouch-very good. slow start, then took off. sold on for a profit when Torres arrived and Crouch wanted more games
Bellamy-average, sold on for profit cause wanted more game time
Sissoko-brilliant before his injury, good after his injury. sold on for profit with the arrival of Mascherano
Morientes-disappointed.
Garcia-good, one of the main reasons we won the CL in 2005. sold on when wanted to go back to spain.

Again, I'm not a Liverpool fan at all - I support United - but the nonsense about Benitez being terrible, or even below par, in the transfer market is infuriatingly, mind-numbingly, patently false.

EDIT: I think I may, with permission of course Alan, roll out this quote every time a similar argument is made over the next few weeks. Not in the hopes of promoting a more reasonable discussion since it's probably close to impossible - more as a social experiment to see just how blinkered and oblivious it is possible for people to be and still be capable of learning how to type.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

and round and round we go.

my turn. i'm judging the americans on what they've done over the last 2/3 years. not a couple of weeks.

he has a net spend of around 5m in the last couple of seasons. not good enough.

before that, he had more, but not so much more that he should have built a league winning squad & still comparitively less than the teams we want to overtake were spending at the same time.

Not going to go around in circles. I just think you are wrong with the maths and history will not be kind to Rafa on the subject of his transfer dealings.

Mr Alan

wat maths is wrong?

The Muppet

keane2097 wrote: »

If I may - would you like to respond to any or all of this?



Again, I'm not a Liverpool fan at all - I support United - but the nonsense about Benitez being terrible, or even below par, in the transfer market is infuriatingly, mind-numbingly, patently false.

.

I would respond by saying that list represents less than 40% of his transfer dealings .

keane2097

The Muppet wrote: »

I would respond by saying that list represents less than 40% of his transfer dealings .

Name the other 30 odd players of note so if you would...

The Muppet

keane2097 wrote: »

Name the other 30 odd players of note so if you would...

What to you mean "of Note". you listed 20 players while Rafa has signed 50 plus players.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

I would respond by saying that list represents less than 40% of his transfer dealings .

i said it was of players that any sort of decent money was spent on.

5m & over.

there has been a lot of young players & stuff bought for the academy that you seem to want to incl & there was also a good few cheap punts & free transfers that were brought in to fill out the squad (cause we're always skint).

iregk

Mr Alan wrote: »

because Rafa is working under restrictions that Houllier never did & he is working during a time when the league is far more competitive.

Rafa working under restrictions? Exactly what restrictions are these Alan? Just so your clear here is Rafa's history of spending.

Total Spent: £247,730,000
Total Sold: £134,080,000
Net: £113,650,000
Average per year: £18,941,667

Just so your also aware, that's the 3rd highest from 2004 until now behind Chelsea and Man City. Hardly what I'd call restrictions in fairness!

ntlbell

keane2097 wrote: »

Name the other 30 odd players of note so if you would...

i think this is a comprehnsive list

kop

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

i said it was of players that any sort of decent money was spent on.

5m & over.

Why did you do that though? to discount a single signing skews the figures and any assumptions reached from them.

If the average cost of each of the 30 plus players you omitted was only £2 million the figures would be over £60 million out. Thats a significant sum.

Prufrock

Ah the transfer money arguement again. :rolleyes:

It's all about results and anything less than second will be a step back for Liverpool this year. They've had a bad start but I'd wait till christmas to make a judgement about any team.

Rafa spent £247,730,000. :eek:

citytillidie

And away we go Transfers again

ntlbell

citytillidie wrote: »

And away we go Transfers again

we could keep talking about that 1 game against milan, will that help?

citytillidie

ntlbell wrote: »

we could keep talking about that 1 game against milan, will that help?

Nope its done to death just like the transfer talk in here

ntlbell

citytillidie wrote: »

Nope its done to death just like the transfer talk in here

well i'm not sure how you rate the importance of a manager to be able to buy the right players and not sqaunder mil after mil then whine he doesn't get enough

i think most would regard it as very important hence it being a part of the discussion on you know,..a manager...

LuckyLloyd

LZ5by5 wrote: »

The soccer forum, forever fostering the sensationalist and populist thinking of the gutter media.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

How do you reckon Man U would handle losing Rooney, Berbatov, Vidic, and Giggs?

How do you reckon Arsenal would handle losing Arshavin, Frabregas, Van Persie and Vermaelan?

How do you reckon Chelsea would handles losing Lampard, Terry, Drogba and Essien?

How do you reckon Man City would handle losing Adebayor, Bellamy, Ireland, and Robinho?

How do you reckon Spurs would handle losing Keane, Defoe, Lennon, and Modric?

How do you reckon Villa would handle losing Agbonlahor, Young, Carew and Petrov?

I could go on. Every team has their core group of 3/4 players that make them tick, but it's been a long standing rule in the media that this rule doesn't apply to Liverpool.

Basically this. This forum seems to get worse and worse with time I think.