Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

ilovelamp2000

daithijjj wrote: »

Well you would be the first man ive spoken to that thinks arbeloa is the same level as johnson. But i think you agree with me though? right? Im fairly sure the owners are not to blame for the signing of the 'new' harry kewell.

If you look at things in isolation Johnson is a better player than Arbeloa.

However in this current Liverpool team Arbeloa would be preferable to Johnson, simply because he's a better defender than Johnson.

So we've taken away from the team by adding a better, albeit different player and that's borne out by our defensive statistics this season.

It is only one of the reasons why we've conceded more goals this season though.

daithijjj

bayviewclose wrote: »

god its a crazy month. Top four teams dropping points left right and centre.

Im sitting here daydreaming about the possibilities that would have been if we were only bad for just the 1 month

daithijjj

Rosco1982 wrote: »

If you look at things in isolation Johnson is a better player than Arbeloa.

However in this current Liverpool team Arbeloa would be preferable to Johnson, simply because he's a better defender than Johnson.

So we've taken away from the team by adding a better, albeit different player and that's borne out by our defensive statistics this season.

It is only one of the reasons why we've conceded more goals this season though.

I accept that hypothesis, i just dont agree with it though

Arbeloa was no defensive 'rock' in our defense, i can remember quite a few occasions where he was directly responsible for losing goals last season. I wonder would carra have agreed with you after the west brom game :pac::pac:

Johnson has rejuvented the right side this season, sure he is not a stay at home right back but he was purchased by the manager for his other attributes.

ilovelamp2000

wandatowell wrote: »

I cant see what difference a new contract did for him. The Spetic Tanks are the powerbrokers at the club. Problem is they dont understand football and they tried to be too hands on when it came to transfers. I could be very wrong with that opinion though so feel free to correct me. You are right though things have gotten worse. IMO the club is weaker now than it was two years ago

Which transfer was it that they stopped, and why ?

It was the sell Alonso for 12m and buy Barry for 18m deal, wasn't it ?

Really when you think about it, they did the right thing. We managed to make 30m when selling Alonso a year later and his performances during the season were a big reason why did so well in the league.

The club is weaker than it was two years ago because of the players Rafa has bought. None of them have made a significant positive impact Look at the list:

Johnson (17m) - Good player, but has weakened the defence significantly. Hard to judge his impact.

Aquilani (20m) - never fit enough to play

Kyrgiakos (2m) - Wasn't good enough for Rangers, why would he be good enough for Liverpool ?

Degen (Free, but 2m signing on fee) - Injury prone and not very good. One start in 2 seasons so far.

Dossena (8m) - Rubbish. I wasn't surprised when I was told Rafa had never actually watched him play before we signed him.

Cavalieri (3.5m) - Unnecessary purchase.

N'Gog (1.5m) - Well worth what we paid for him. I don't expect him to ever be a first choice at Liverpool, but his regular goals this season have been well worth the outlay.

Robbie ****ing Keane (19m) - I really hated it when we signed him. I've never liked him. And he turned out to be rubbish too.

Albert Riera (8m) - He's a steady solid winger, under appreciated a little bit too. He gives us a lot of shape and works hard to help out his LB. But he really needs to provide more in the last third.

That's the guts of 80m , and we've little to show for it.

ilovelamp2000

daithijjj wrote: »

I accept that hypothesis, i just dont agree with it though

Arbeloa was no defensive 'rock' in our defense, i can remember quite a few occasions where he was directly responsible for losing goals last season. I wonder would carra have agreed with you after the west brom game :pac::pac:

Johnson has rejuvented the right side this season, sure he is not a stay at home right back but he was purchased by the manager for his other attributes.

I never said he was a rock. But he's better defensively than Johnson.

Last season we conceded 27 goals in 38 games with Arbeloa at RB for the most part. This season with Johnson at RB mainly, we've conceded 25 goals in 18 games.

We're considerably worse off defensively this season, partly because of the more offensive minded Johnson being at RB.

We scored 77 goals in 38 games last season, meaning an average of just over 2 goals a game. This season we've scored 34 goals in 18 games, just under 2 goals a game. So we're worse off offensively this season too.

I do actually quite like him as a player, he's just the wrong player for us right now.

The Muppet

daithijjj wrote: »

I accept that hypothesis, i just dont agree with it though

Arbeloa was no defensive 'rock' in our defense, i can remember quite a few occasions where he was directly responsible for losing goals last season. I wonder would carra have agreed with you after the west brom game :pac::pac:

Johnson has rejuvented the right side this season, sure he is not a stay at home right back but he was purchased by the manager for his other attributes.

What's first priority for a defender? The ability to defend properly of the ability to attack. I understand Rafa was looking for an Evra , Cole type player . He didn't get one, he got a good attacking player in johnson (which most pool fans judge him on) but he is not good enough defensively a factor which appears to be largely overlooked.

Like it or not that is the truth and is borne out with the amount of goals conceded this season.I'm not saying they are all johnsons fault but the defensive unit was weakened to facilitate him.

wandatowell

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Which transfer was it that they stopped, and why ?

It was the sell Alonso for 12m and buy Barry for 18m deal, wasn't it ?

Really when you think about it, they did the right thing. We managed to make 30m when selling Alonso a year later and his performances during the season were a big reason why did so well in the league.

The club is weaker than it was two years ago because of the players Rafa has bought. None of them have made a significant positive impact Look at the list:

I didnt say anything about them stopping transfers. I was trying to get to the Robbie Keane farce, rafa no more wanted keane and the club. Im sure that deal was forced on rafa and the zero support he got from the board when he wanted Barry. Now if im wrong about those deals fair enough.

Thats a bit harsh judging Johnson and Aqualini after a few months at the club.

Kev_ps3

If Pool sack Rafa and dont finish in the top 4 this season, then I could easily see Torres leaving in the summer.

daithijjj

Ah f**k, im being double teamed here and im tryin to watch the arsenal game :pac:

All im saying is that johnson has more than done his bit in helping the team score quite alot of its goals this season, of course this is going to adversly affect the other. Ive seen every minute of every league game thus far and jamie carragher has been terrible for 90% of it. He also took out skrtel with a retarded challenge in the first game of the season, which has affected his form for few games imo, was clearly a lack of understanding there right from the outset. Insua has done very well but is young and is playing through some mistakes he has made, all this has contributed to bad defensive play this season.

And also, lucas is not as deep lying as alonso was, our defence had 2 men in front of it all last season, lucas likes to venture into the box, masch and alonso were rarely seen that far forward.

ilovelamp2000

wandatowell wrote: »

I didnt say anything about them stopping transfers. I was trying to get to the Robbie Keane farce, rafa no more wanted keane and the club. Im sure that deal was forced on rafa and the zero support he got from the board when he wanted Barry. Now if im wrong about those deals fair enough.

Thats a bit harsh judging Johnson and Aqualini after a few months at the club.

That was a rumour put about by the Benitez camp at the time, primarily to create pressure on Parry. He had also told a number of players not to sign any contracts until Parry was removed. Remember all the Agger/Kuyt stories about them not being offered new deals quickly enough ? It caused quite a bit of disharmony in the camp, and it was said that Carragher was mightily pissed off with Benitez using the players for political games.

Benitez said in a recent interview that his plan was to plan for that summer was to sign both Keane and Barry (to play on the left) and play 4-4-2.

It would have looked like this:

---

Torres - Keane

Barry --- Mascherano - Gerrard -- Kuyt


Now that's wrong on so many levels.

I don't have much time for the American owners, but I have less time for Rafa. He hasn't a clue how to build a squad and it's no coincidence that his success has come at both Valencia and Liverpool before he really got to make the squad his own.

The Muppet

wandatowell wrote: »

I didnt say anything about them stopping transfers. I was trying to get to the Robbie Keane farce, rafa no more wanted keane and the club. Im sure that deal was forced on rafa and the zero support he got from the board when he wanted Barry. Now if im wrong about those deals fair enough.

.

Rafa said in a recent interview that he wanted both Keane and Barry

ilovelamp2000

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

If Pool sack Rafa and dont finish in the top 4 this season, then I could easily see Torres leaving in the summer.

Torres has already said twice that Rafa's future has no bearing on his own.

Bandit12

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

If Pool sack Rafa and dont finish in the top 4 this season, then I could easily see Torres leaving in the summer.

Hogwash. Torres has already stated he's at Liverpool for the long term.

Kev_ps3

Bandit12 wrote: »

Hogwash. Torres has already stated he's at Liverpool for the long term.

It might not be his decision.

monkey9

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

It might not be his decision.

Surely, surely, the yanks wouldn't be that thick.

wandatowell

Rosco1982 wrote: »

That was a rumour put about by the Benitez camp at the time, primarily to create pressure on Parry. He had also told a number of players not to sign any contracts until Parry was removed. Remember all the Agger/Kuyt stories about them not being offered new deals quickly enough ? It caused quite a bit of disharmony in the camp, and it was said that Carragher was mightily pissed off with Benitez using the players for political games.

Benitez said in a recent interview that his plan was to plan for that summer was to sign both Keane and Barry (to play on the left) and play 4-4-2.

It would have looked like this:

---

Torres - Keane

Barry --- Mascherano - Gerrard -- Kuyt


Now that's wrong on so many levels.

I don't have much time for the American owners, but I have less time for Rafa. He hasn't a clue how to build a squad and it's no coincidence that his success has come at both Valencia and Liverpool before he really got to make the squad his own.

It appears I fell for rafa's well oiled smear campaign. I haven't been following the story as closely as I should have been, Apologies for my miss-informed opinion. It seems there has to be MASSIVE changes at the club and ALL levels of management.

Glico Man

If the yanks sell a player that isn't ratified by the manager then I fear for their safety

I have no time for those that resort to violence but if Torres was sold to ease the burden of debt then that will be the last straw from fans and they will be driven out of the club

At this stage I would be willing to give them each a piggy back to the airport and pay for their plane tickets

empirix

speculation is building that an emergency board meeting has been called within the coming days

LuckyLloyd

empirix wrote: »

speculation is building that an emergency board meeting has been called within the coming days

Should I give such speculation more, less or the same credence as the rumours that indicated Rafa had walked out on the club the afternoon before we played Real Madrid last season?

everdead.ie

All the politics at LFC can not be good for the first team

Bandit12

empirix wrote: »

speculation is building that an emergency board meeting has been called within the coming days

Taxi driver?

x in the city

I support Everton...

(as everyone knows...!)

can someone please enlighten me why Pool fans have Raffa held under such worshipping god status...?

Its clear they will never win a title under him, and its worse they seem to be getting.

Its almost as long as Everton since Liverpool last one a title. and that, no matter what way you look at it, is sad. for both clubs. Liverpool are no nearer to winning a title than Everton now.

If I supported LFC I would have wanted him ousted long ago, he was very good 'tactically' in Europe in recent years, but it seems they have been found out

They lack strength in dept at an alarming rate for a 'big' team and surely Raffa cant keep onto his job much longer.

mink_man

as i've said before, rafa is as done as the turkey i'll be cookin on christmas day..burnt!

K-9

x in the city wrote: »

I support Everton...

(as everyone knows...!)

can someone please enlighten me why Pool fans have Raffa held under such worshipping god status...?

Its clear they will never win a title under him, and its worse they seem to be getting.

Its almost as long as Everton since Liverpool last one a title. and that, no matter what way you look at it, is sad. for both clubs. Liverpool are no nearer to winning a title than Everton now.

If I supported LFC I would have wanted him ousted long ago, he was very good 'tactically' in Europe in recent years, but it seems they have been found out

They lack strength in dept at an alarming rate for a 'big' team and surely Raffa cant keep onto his job much longer.

Do you think we could win it under somebody and if so, who?

spockety

empirix wrote: »

speculation is building that an emergency board meeting has been called within the coming days

This is the board most of whom are not even on speaking terms with each other?? Ok!

dannydiamond

monkey9 wrote: »

Rafa Benitez is one of the top managers in Europe who will go on to much success at a well run club.

Having him at Liverpool under the control of the cowboys is like having Jimi Hendrix in your band. He wants to, and knows how to play Foxy Lady, but nobody will give him a f*cking guitar!!!

daithijjj wrote: »

Its the same squad as last year with a better right back, nobody forced jimmy to spend 20mil on a broken italian guitar.

Outstanding lads,well played!

x in the city

K-9 wrote: »

Do you think we could win it under somebody and if so, who?

you think im god....

:rolleyes:

I think if Moyes had the money at his disposal which Raffa had he would have done better.

I think is sad for football in merseyside in general, the plight of both clubs. but Everton have a wretched injury crisis and Moyes chances of getting sacked or quitting would be 1,000,000/1

Liverpool's main problem, since they last won a title, is....

consistency. And until they get a manager who stabilises the club that will continue to be the problem

beating Man United one week is fine, but picking up 2 points or whatever from the next 12 or so is not.

They should lose Raffa ASAP,IMO. And concentrate on winning the euro or FA cup. They still have quality players and only a fool would write them off a cup success, but at the moment they are a mess.

x in the city

dannydiamond wrote: »

Outstanding!

blaming the yanks is poor form.

Villa haven't spent as outlandish as Raffa but MON to his credit has stuck to his guns and they are looking very sexy this year.

The yanks don't pick the team. and don't mess up formations, indeed they prob wouldn't know what zonal marking is

they might think its American football tactic.

Moyes doesn't pout and complain about zero money or injury problems, he get on with his job and try's to keep some consistency in his formation.

Stargate

K-9 wrote: »

Do you think we could win it under somebody and if so, who?

I hear Roody Collins is free

Chucky the tree

x in the city wrote: »

blaming the yanks is poor form.

Villa haven't spent as outlandish as Raffa but MON to his credit has stuck to his guns and they are looking very sexy this year.

The yanks don't pick the team. and don't mess up formations, indeed they prob wouldn't know what zonal marking is

they might think its American football tactic.

Moyes doesn't pout and complain about zero money or injury problems, he get on with his job and try's to keep some consistency in his formation.

Maybe he should re-think that policy? You lot are only 1 point above relegation zone.

dannydiamond

mink_man wrote: »

as i've said before, rafa is as done as the turkey i'll be cookin on christmas day..burnt!

I doubt you'd be capable of turning the oven on to be honest.

K-9

x in the city wrote: »

blaming the yanks is poor form.

Villa haven't spent as outlandish as Raffa but MON to his credit has stuck to his guns and they are looking very sexy this year.

The yanks don't pick the team. and don't mess up formations, indeed they prob wouldn't know what zonal marking is

they might think its American football tactic.

Moyes doesn't pout and complain about zero money or injury problems, he get on with his job and try's to keep some consistency in his formation.

In the last 2 years he has probably spent more than MON. People forget that.

We've had our own injury crisis too but as with most supporters, theirs is worse than anybody elses.

opr

daithijjj wrote: »

I see your point and i dont disagree. The problem is that when the manager 'gives up' i, and anyone else, is entitled to give up on him. What must the players be thinking?

After watching MOTD I was reminded that Rafa will be without Mach for up to four games and with Aquilani having some mysterious injury it looks like Spearing is next in line for central midfield.

So it looks like Rafa was bedding him for what could be a prolonged run in the team :pac:

Opr

x in the city

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Maybe he should re-think that policy? You lot are only 1 point above relegation zone.

Not really, you don't seem to realise the injury problems at Everton.

Everton have no chance of getting relegated, we will finish above mid table at least. With a huge stroke of luck we might even have a full team to pick from by Feb/March for the Euros

dannydiamond

It's genuinely laughable that a number of you are under the illusion that Rafa gaining control of youth team policies,academy set up, staffing throughout the club etc etc are to blame for our first team performing sh1t for the first 3 months of the season.

Some common sense please people.

x in the city

dannydiamond wrote: »

It's genuinely laughable that a number of you are under the illusion that Rafa gaining control of youth team policies,academy set up, staffing throughout the club etc etc are to blame for our first team performing sh1t for the first 3 months of the season.

Some common sense please people.

common sense would dictate that pool have performing horse$hit for longer than 3 months tbh...!

dannydiamond

x in the city wrote: »

common sense would dictate that pool have performing horse$hit for longer than 3 months tbh...!

We're all too well aware of that.

You and many others seem to be quoting cr@p you've pulled out of the tabloids,rather than any informed opinions of your own,now that's what I call "horse$hit".

K-9

opr wrote: »

After watching MOTD I was reminded that Rafa will be without Mach for up to four games and with Aquilani having some mysterious injury it looks like Spearing is next in line for central midfield.

So it looks like Rafa was bedding him for what could be a prolonged run in the team :pac:

Opr

Meant to post that on the team thread. I don't fancy playing Villa and Spurs without him. A change in tactics is needed just to replace him alone.

x in the city

dannydiamond wrote: »

We're all too well aware of that.

You and many others seem to be quoting cr@p you've pulled out of the tabloids,rather than any informed opinions of your own,now that's what I call "horse$hit".

i don't do

a) tabloids

b) reality tv

c) sky

d) x factor crap..

opr

Just on Rafa and gaining control of the youth set up. I keep hearing from people how bad the youth set up with Liverpool was and how much better it is now and will be that he has full control.

This is the same youth setup that produced in the decade before (Deep into a bottle of JD and only gave it a few minutes consideration so I am sure their are a good few others) Gerrard, Owen, Rednapp, McManaman, Carragher, Fowler.

I am sure we have loads of decent prospects but Rafa has been at the club 6 years and as far as I can tell he has yet to bed a youth player into a first team regular ?

Opr

monkey9

x in the city wrote: »

I support Everton...

(as everyone knows...!)

can someone please enlighten me why Pool fans have Raffa held under such worshipping god status...?

Its clear they will never win a title under him, and its worse they seem to be getting.

Its almost as long as Everton since Liverpool last one a title. and that, no matter what way you look at it, is sad. for both clubs. Liverpool are no nearer to winning a title than Everton now.

If I supported LFC I would have wanted him ousted long ago, he was very good 'tactically' in Europe in recent years, but it seems they have been found out

They lack strength in dept at an alarming rate for a 'big' team and surely Raffa cant keep onto his job much longer.

Look, i'm not taking the p!ss, i really aren't!! But if Rafa did what he did at Everton, he would be hailed a genius!! You can't compare the two clubs! You just can't!!

History dictates Rafa's goals at Liverpool. Some fans need to kop on!! I do believe Rafa is a dead man walking, but when he goes, i swear to Fowler, people will finally realise what we had!!!

rossie1977

x in the city wrote: »

you think im god....

:rolleyes:

I think if Moyes had the money at his disposal which Raffa had he would have done better.

i would place moyes at the same level as someone like Alan Curbishley or mark hughes, hughes did a fine job at blackburn but more money didn't bring success in his case

Liverpool's main problem, since they last won a title, is....

consistency. And until they get a manager who stabilises the club that will continue to be the problem

the highlighted bit makes no sense, how would any manager stabilise the club in its current predicament, the boardroom is a mess, dirty linen is constantly been washed in public, the two co-owners don't speak to one another, profits the club make on the field are gone in the blink of an eye to pay off debts the owners placed on the head of the club

Aidric

x in the city wrote: »

i don't do
c) sky

You must miss a lot of games.

K-9

opr wrote: »

This is the same youth setup that produced in the decade before (Deep into a bottle of JD and only gave it a few minutes consideration so I am sure their are a good few others) Gerrard, Owen, Rednapp, McManaman, Carragher, Fowler.

You not see the problem there yourself?

opr

K-9 wrote: »

You not see the problem there yourself?

Enlightened the drunken rambler ?

Opr

K-9

opr wrote: »

Enlightened the drunken rambler ?

Opr

The most recent was Gerard.

jesus_thats_gre

opr wrote: »

Enlightened the drunken rambler ?

Opr

That last one to come through that set up was Gerrard. 501 games ago..

kryogen

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

That last one to come through that set up was Gerrard. 501 games ago..

Warnock?

HashSlinging

Theres no way in hell Rafa is going, why would Liverpool sack him not how things are done at LFC...dead man walking! give me a bucket? He's a genius, and needs to be respected.. Since he's taken over as manager LFC have **consistently** gotten better.

This is his worst start to a season at the club FFS and were just hitting the half way mark, realistically if liverpool were to do well in the Europa cup and finish well (fighting for fourth) it would be a huge success.

Anything else would be a bonus at this stage..

opr

K-9 wrote: »

The most recent was Gerard.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

That last one to come through that set up was Gerrard. 501 games ago..

Maybe I am missing something but the only thing I see is that under Rafa an already existing successful youth policy suddenly becomes stagnant ? Remember Rafa is in charge for most of the period your pointing out we haven't produced a youth player!

The period from when Gerrard cements a first team spot and when Rafa takes over is only 2/3 years and after this its all Rafa ?

So ok Gerrard was the last player to come through the youth setup but is this more a case of Rafa not being very good at developing youth players or the youth setup itself ? Keep it mind the decade before Rafa arrived it seemed to do ok if you look at the players I mentioned ?

Opr