Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

HashSlinging

opr wrote: »

I am sure we have loads of decent prospects but Rafa has been at the club 6 years and as far as I can tell he has yet to bed a youth player into a first team regular ?

Opr

6 years you said it yourself.. do you think the man is a god or something.. he's a genius... but your asking a bit much now by doing what he's done and then asking him to bring in a youth team after 5 months of getting permission..

Lads give the man a bit of breathing space..

x in the city

Aidric wrote: »

You must miss a lot of games.

sopcast says otherwise

jesus_thats_gre

opr wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something but the only thing I see is that under Rafa an already existing successful youth policy suddenly becomes stagnant ? Remember Rafa is in charge for most of the period your pointing out we haven't produced a youth player!

The period from when Gerrard cements a first team spot and when Rafa takes over is only 2/3 years and after this its all Rafa ?

So ok Gerrard was the last player to come through the youth setup but is this more a case of Rafa not being very good at developing youth players or the youth setup itself ? Keep it mind the decade before Rafa arrived it seemed to do ok if you look at the players I mentioned ?

Opr

Gerrard came through at the end of the Evans and beginning of Houllier. That was 5 years before Rafa joined the club.

jesus_thats_gre

kryogen wrote: »

Warnock?

I like Warnock as a player and wish he was still at the club but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, McManaman or Carragher.

I see the point you are making however.

opr

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Gerrard came through at the end of the Evans and beginning of Houllier. That was 5 years before Rafa joined the club.

Yes but he only becomes a first team regular 2/3 years before Rafa arrives.

Opr

opr

HashSlinging wrote: »

6 years you said it yourself.. do you think the man is a god or something.. he's a genius... but your asking a bit much now by doing what he's done and then asking him to bring in a youth team after 5 months of getting permission..

Lads give the man a bit of breathing space..

I will speak a little slower.

This was a youth setup that was functioning and producing players long before Rafa arrived.

Opr

jesus_thats_gre

opr wrote: »

I will speak a little slower.

This was a youth setup that was functioning and producing players long before Rafa arrived.

Opr

It simply wasn't..

d22ontour

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Gerrard came through at the end of the Evans and beginning of Houllier. That was 5 years before Rafa joined the club.

That just tells us the awful state the top clubs have gotten themselves into regarding success and youth development.When Arsenal buy a kid of 16 for 5m and play him it's seen as a successful youth progression when in reality it shows us what all top clubs do now.They buy and nuture which isn't quite the same as Gerrard/Scholes etc.You produced 3 quality players in Owen Fowler Gerrard in an era of money driven success.That is an achievement in itself regardless of the timeline.Smaller clubs survive on selling these products and probably West Ham as has been mentioned in other threads have produced quite a staggering amount in the last 15 years who have been top quality.Nowadays it's just buy buy buy regarding kids which is a shame.

jesus_thats_gre

d22ontour wrote: »

That just tells us the awful state the top clubs have gotten themselves into regarding success and youth development.When Arsenal buy a kid of 16 for 5m and play him it's seen as a successful youth progression when in reality it shows us what all top clubs do now.They buy and nuture which isn't quite the same as Gerrard/Scholes etc.You produced 3 quality players in Owen Fowler Gerrard in an era of money driven success.That is an achievement in itself regardless of the timeline.Smaller clubs survive on selling these products and probably West Ham as has been mentioned in other threads have produced quite a staggering amount in the last 15 years who have been top quality.Nowadays it's just buy buy buy regarding kids which is a shame.

Top clubs assumed that they could just buy the best talent as they needed it and effectively abandoned their youth setup.

The has been a dramatic improvement in the quality of players coming through out youth system in the past 18 months compared to the previous few seasons.

Arsenal and Wenger done what they did to negate the impact that paying for the Emirates would have on their ability to compete in the transfer market. Liverpool are employing the same method for similar reasons, i.e. purse strings have been tightened significantly.

Regarding West Ham, it amazes me how good a team they could have if they managed to keep their players. Off the top of my head - Johnson, both Ferdinands, Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, Defoe, Carrick to name but a few.

Villain

Rafa loses 2-0 to the bottom team who will be relegated and he still isn't done, while Hughes is sacked after beating Sunderland, guess we know who has the money and ambition!!!

K-9

kryogen wrote: »

Warnock?

Yeah, wish we still had him, but a late developer.

HashSlinging wrote: »

6 years you said it yourself.. do you think the man is a god or something.. he's a genius... but your asking a bit much now by doing what he's done and then asking him to bring in a youth team after 5 months of getting permission..

Lads give the man a bit of breathing space..

True.

opr wrote: »

I will speak a little slower.

This was a youth setup that was functioning and producing players long before Rafa arrived.

Opr

Exactly, long before Rafa arrived! I think you need to be looking at Houllier,nothimg through his era tbh.

If you think the problems with the youth set up started with Rafa, I'm sorry, you are plain wrong.

Insua is there now, still young and learning his trade, Spearing, Pachecho, Darby, Kelly etc. Time will tell.

N Gog was bought cheap, though not a youth.

opr

Villain wrote: »

Rafa loses 2-0 to the bottom team who will be relegated and he still isn't done, while Hughes is sacked after beating Sunderland, guess we know who has the money and ambition!!!

I really hope you can excuse yourself based on the fact that you have drank even more than I have ?

A season in which that a club has shown so little foresight than to give a manager just a weekend in footballing terms to show results has very little to do with money or ambition.

Opr

OPENROAD

d22ontour wrote: »

That just tells us the awful state the top clubs have gotten themselves into regarding success and youth development.When Arsenal buy a kid of 16 for 5m and play him it's seen as a successful youth progression when in reality it shows us what all top clubs do now.They buy and nuture which isn't quite the same as Gerrard/Scholes etc.You produced 3 quality players in Owen Fowler Gerrard in an era of money driven success.That is an achievement in itself regardless of the timeline.Smaller clubs survive on selling these products and probably West Ham as has been mentioned in other threads have produced quite a staggering amount in the last 15 years who have been top quality.Nowadays it's just buy buy buy regarding kids which is a shame.

Liverpool can adopt the same policy also.

Stargate

opr wrote: »

I really hope you can excuse yourself based on the fact that you have drank even more than I have ?

A season in which that a club has shown so little foresight than to give a manager just a weekend in footballing terms to show results has very little to do with money or ambition.

Opr

You drink and type Opr , phew i cant think never mind say type But seriously , i mean come on , how long do you give someone to do a job right ? If it was anywhere esle he would have been gone ages ago , 5 years and what have we to show for it?

jesus_thats_gre

OPENROAD wrote: »

Liverpool can adopt the same policy also.

They gave done and publically stated so about 18 months ago.

opr

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It simply wasn't..

Eh, Yes it was.

Stargate wrote: »

You drink and type Opr , phew i cant think never mind say type But seriously , i mean come on , how long do you give someone to do a job right ? If it was anywhere esle he would have been gone ages ago , 5 years and what have we to show for it?

I really do have way to much alcohol consumed to answer your questions!

I was only trying maybe a little facetiously to make the point that when Liverpool unlike "Idiot" city make the decision to sake a manager it will be based on a real extended period of time in which a manager can be judged.

Opr

Paulegend

opr wrote: »

I will speak a little slower.

This was a youth setup that was functioning and producing players long before Rafa arrived.

Opr

WHAT????????

ok im just asking but are you really talking about Liverpool???

Steven Gerrard, Michael Owen and Jamie Carragher are the last proper players to come through our set up. anyone else was merly a mediocor player. yes Warnock is good but is he better than Insua or Aurellio????? not a chance. the problem with the youth set up was we would train the players send them on loan then sell them for a bag of crisps. the set up was functioning in developing championship standard players. that was and still is the problem. but we are talking about 10 or 11 years of not producing top quality.

its not like it wasnt there to be developed. these are just a few players developed by clubs local to liverpool. no reason why liverpool couldnt get these guys. maybe its our scouting department??

James Vaughen, Gosling, Rodwell, Baxter, steven Ireland(albeit started at cobh), Micah Richards,


we have a good crop of players now coming through the revamped academy but lets be honest we are way behind our rivals when it comes to the academy. frigin hell middlesborough have a better academy than us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OPENROAD wrote: »

Liverpool can adopt the same policy also.

we cant afford to pay 5 million for a 16 year old like arsenal. the media give rafa a hard time when they talk about what he spent but they never talk about the 12 million for Walcott or the 6 for denilson and so on.

OPENROAD

Paulegend wrote: »

we cant afford to pay 5 million for a 16 year old like arsenal. the media give rafa a hard time when they talk about what he spent but they never talk about the 12 million for Walcott or the 6 for denilson and so on.

Denilson was 3.5 M, as for not being able to afford to, well you could well afford to pay approx 16m for a right back. You could afford to splash the cash on Keane.It is a case of being prudent. Liverpool could easily have adpoted the same policy. Arsenals spending speaks for itself over the last five years or so.

opr

Paulegend wrote: »

WHAT????????

ok im just asking but are you really talking about Liverpool???

We seem to have crossed wires as I agree with the vast majority of your post!

Opr

ilovelamp2000

opr wrote: »

Just on Rafa and gaining control of the youth set up. I keep hearing from people how bad the youth set up with Liverpool was and how much better it is now and will be that he has full control.

This is the same youth setup that produced in the decade before (Deep into a bottle of JD and only gave it a few minutes consideration so I am sure their are a good few others) Gerrard, Owen, Rednapp, McManaman, Carragher, Fowler.

I am sure we have loads of decent prospects but Rafa has been at the club 6 years and as far as I can tell he has yet to bed a youth player into a first team regular ?

Opr

Rafa's problem with the youth set up wasn't straightforward. We hired the Piet Hamberg as technical director and took him from Ajax. Parry's son was getting work experience as a coach with Ajax and that was the main reason he was on Parry's radar when the job became available. He got the job and brought a female doctor with him.

When the deal for Andrea Dossena was being done our main doctor was away with the England squad, so it fell to the female doctor to carry out the medical. It came to light at this point that she had no qualifications and she was "close" to Piet Hamberg.

That was the main reason for the shake up at academy level.

ilovelamp2000

Paulegend wrote: »

WHAT????????

ok im just asking but are you really talking about Liverpool???

Steven Gerrard, Michael Owen and Jamie Carragher are the last proper players to come through our set up. anyone else was merly a mediocor player. yes Warnock is good but is he better than Insua or Aurellio????? not a chance. the problem with the youth set up was we would train the players send them on loan then sell them for a bag of crisps. the set up was functioning in developing championship standard players. that was and still is the problem. but we are talking about 10 or 11 years of not producing top quality.

its not like it wasnt there to be developed. these are just a few players developed by clubs local to liverpool. no reason why liverpool couldnt get these guys. maybe its our scouting department??

James Vaughen, Gosling, Rodwell, Baxter, steven Ireland(albeit started at cobh), Micah Richards,


we have a good crop of players now coming through the revamped academy but lets be honest we are way behind our rivals when it comes to the academy. frigin hell middlesborough have a better academy than us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




we cant afford to pay 5 million for a 16 year old like arsenal. the media give rafa a hard time when they talk about what he spent but they never talk about the 12 million for Walcott or the 6 for denilson and so on.

Warnock is better defensively than both Aurelio and Insua.

That said I think overall Aurelio is a better player than him.

eagle eye

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Warnock is better defensively than both Aurelio and Insua.

This is so wrong.

mayordenis

I'm beyond belief sickened today I don't know what to think.

Spiritoftheseventies

mirwillbeback wrote: »

as thread starter, that title change really p!ssed me off actually. it changes the whole context of my thread, more or less saying it's done to wind people up.

thanks for seeing that's not what was intended.

Take a look at your original post. You singled out one team and pretty much said that A B C would finish above them and that we would finish sixth. It was three months or so into the season when you posted and we have seen already that United have lost five games. Maybe you were not intentionally winding some posters up but you nonetheless have done it. I think you should at least stand by what you said instead of back tracking.

The Muppet

bayviewclose wrote: »

Take a look at your original post. You singled out one team and pretty much said that A B C would finish above them and that we would finish sixth. It was three months or so into the season when you posted and we have seen already that United have lost five games. Maybe you were not intentionally winding some posters up but you nonetheless have done it. I think you should at least stand by what you said instead of back tracking.

Yeah, his opinion is so far wide of the mark he must have been on a wind up.

Spiritoftheseventies

The Muppet wrote: »

Yeah, his opinion is so far wide of the mark he must have been on a wind up.

Like i said at time our team were struggling. United have lost five games. Anyone going on about them. Dont mind people putting the spotlight on club if there was a bit of balance. Lets just see what it will be like when United are in rebuilding process. Will we get the same reaction.

The Muppet

bayviewclose wrote: »

Like i said at time our team were struggling. United have lost five games. Anyone going on about them. Dont mind people putting the spotlight on club if there was a bit of balance. Lets just see what it will be like when United are in rebuilding process. Will we get the same reaction.

Balance , this is not the BBC, if anyone want's to discuss other teams they should start a thread on them. United are in a constant rebuilding process, if their performances /results merits they have and will continue to be criticised.

Bandit12

bayviewclose wrote: »

Like i said at time our team were struggling. United have lost five games. Anyone going on about them. Dont mind people putting the spotlight on club if there was a bit of balance. Lets just see what it will be like when United are in rebuilding process. Will we get the same reaction.

There is no balance when it comes to united. Ferguson left a 30m+ quid striker on the bench yesterday and lost. Was there a peep about it from the media/pundits, was there ****.

eZe^

This may not be what Liverpool fans want to hear but I'm going to share it anyway. Have you considered that maybe it's literally impossible for Rafa to now take the club further and onto bigger/ better things? Look at whats happened the team now, it looks absolutely distraught and dejected.

I know there is no better manager out there, but it looks like it may be a situation where regardless of the manager being inferior to Rafa, a change needs to be made as the players have lost all faith, with the club needing a fresh face. Just a confidence boost, because no offence, at times you look truly awful as a team, there is no confidence out there at all. It seems that the players are coming onto the pitch as if they are 3-0 down before the whistle even blows.

It's a bad situation I know, when you're replacing something good for something worse, but it may be required to kick start the team. Also, don't forget that even though Rafa is lauded as being a tactical genius for his time at Valencia, he did inherit one of their best teams in history (prior to him arriving they got to two CL finals, losing to Madrid and Bayern), also Barca and Real were in awful times of their history, they were awful for those few season. He is obviously excellent at tactically exploiting the other teams weaknesses, but it seems he rates that higher than maximising his own teams strenghts. That in the end may be a reason why you weren't celebrating winning the EPL last year or whatever. Anyway, that's just a thought to console you if he does end up leaving.


It's a shame to see Liverpool F.C in such a state - it's no longer about results, you could still win the Europa League and get 4th place, but the way the players give up is frightening, considering mental fortitude was what opposition fans/ players feared most about Liverpool in the past, it's worrying that teams no longer fear you as much as they once did.

mayordenis

eZe^ that honestly sums up exactly what I'm thinking of the situation right now,
I feel like a traitor saying it but I think Rafa's in a situation where he just can't move this team forward any further, or even back to where we were this time last year.

The Muppet

eZe^ wrote: »

This may not be what Liverpool fans want to hear but I'm going to share it anyway. Have you considered that maybe it's literally impossible for Rafa to now take the club further and onto bigger/ better things? Look at whats happened the team now, it looks absolutely distraught and dejected.

I know there is no better manager out there, but it looks like it may be a situation where regardless of the manager being inferior to Rafa, a change needs to be made as the players have lost all faith, with the club needing a fresh face. Just a confidence boost, because no offence, at time you look truly awful as a team, there is no confidence out there at all. It seems that the players are coming onto the pitch as if they are 3-0 down before the whistle even blows.

It's a bad situation I know, when you're replacing something good for something worse, but it may be required to kick start the team. Also, don't forget that even though Rafa is lauded as being a tactical genius for his time at Valencia, he did inherit one of their best teams in history (prior to him arriving they got to two CL finals, losing to Madrid and Bayern). He is obviously excellent at tactically exploiting the other teams weaknesses, but it seems he rates that higher than maximising his own teams strenghts. That in the end may be a reason why you weren't celebrating winning the EPL last year or whatever. Anyway, that's just a thought to console you if he does end up leaving.


It's a shame to see Liverpool F.C in such a state - it's no longer about results, you could still win the Europa League and get 4th place, but the way the players give up is frightening, considering mental fortitude was what opposition fans/ players feared most about Liverpool in the past, it's worrying that teams no longer fear you as much as they once did.

Sorry eZe^ I respect you as a mod but I assume you posted this as a normal user .

I agree with your sentiments but do we really need to be so sycophantic on this forum. Do you really believe that there is no better manager out there than Rafa.

mayordenis

The Muppet wrote: »

Sorry eZe^ I respect you as a mod but I assume you posted this as a normal user .

I agree with your sentiments but do we really need to be so sycophantic on this forum. Do you really believe that there is no better manager out there than Rafa.

he has an exceptional record, you'll come across alot worse than any of us if you can't accept that.

everdead.ie

The Muppet wrote: »

Sorry eZe^ I respect you as a mod but I assume you posted this as a normal user .

I agree with your sentiments but do we really need to be so sycophantic on this forum. Do you really believe that there is no better manager out there than Rafa.

Well when you consider the money(supposedly) available to liverpoolto get a new manager after paying off rafa for how much they pay i don't think they could get a better manager

eZe^

The Muppet wrote: »

Sorry eZe^ I respect you as a mod but I assume you posted this as a normal user .

I agree with your sentiments but do we really need to be so sycophantic on this forum. Do you really believe that there is no better manager out there than Rafa.

Should have clarified what I meant mate. I meant there is no better manager out there who will be readily available to replace Rafa! Of course there are better managers out there, Wenger, Capello, Lippi, Hiddink, and Ferguson are 5 I rate much higher than Rafa. I just don't see how Liverpool could get one of the above as a replacement, so imo the only way they'll be going is down if they choose to replace him.


Also, every post I make that doesn't related to trying to 'moderate' the forum is posted as a normal user. You're more than welcome to attack and debate those posts, I'm no different to anyone else on the forum, except that I've a massive banstick in my pocket (waheyyyy, innuendo) that I can wield when I so please...... :P :P

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

he has an exceptional record, you'll come across alot worse than any of us if you can't accept that.

I am well aware of eZe^ contributions which is why I started my post as I did.

Coming across bad or good doesn't concern me once I believe in what I post. I'm assuming we are adults here, I don't see the need for the Kid glove approach but each to their own.

eZe^ wrote: »

Should have clarified what I meant mate. I meant there is no better manager out there who will be readily available to replace Rafa! Of course there are better managers out there, Wenger, Capello, Lippi, Hiddink, and Ferguson are 5 I rate much higher than Rafa. I just don't see how Liverpool could get one of the above as a replacement, so imo the only way they'll be going is down if they choose to replace him.


Also, every post I make that doesn't related to trying to 'moderate' the forum is posted as a normal user. You're more than welcome to attack and debate those posts, I'm no different to anyone else on the forum, except that I've a massive banstick in my pocket (waheyyyy, innuendo) that I can wield when I so please...... :P :P

Cheers eZe^ , fair play for taking the criticism in the nature intended.

I'll bear that ban stick in mind.

Spiritoftheseventies

The Muppet wrote: »

I am well aware of eZe^ contributions which is why I started my post as I did.

Coming across bad or good doesn't concern me once I believe in what I post. I'm assuming we are adults here, I don't see the need for the Kid glove approach but each to their own.




Cheers eZe^ , fair play for taking the criticism in the nature intended.

I'll bear that ban stick in mind.

No one said anything about taking a kid glove approach but really do we need other fans telling us what we already know. As for rafa i think its time he did right thing for club and moved on. But I think the way people are downplaying his past achievements is a bit insulting. He took us to within four points of title last year. And we were challenging for that title regardless of what others think. And there were two champions league finals, one of which we won. So our record in Europe speaks for itself. Time though for new blood.

LuckyLloyd

Villain wrote: »

Rafa loses 2-0 to the bottom team who will be relegated and he still isn't done, while Hughes is sacked after beating Sunderland, guess we know who has the money and ambition!!!

lol, logic fail.

As the statement from the Manchester City owners said, the decision to sack Hughes was based on an assessment of his longer term performance. It wasn't a kneejerk reaction to a single game. One game is irrelevant, and City are capable of identifying that.

However, what City have failed to see, is that even 20 games aren't particularly significant in terms of the bigger picture surrounding a football club. Sacking Hughes because his team hasn't gelled half way through the season after a tremendous amount of player turnover during the previous transfer window is ridiculous. City have the money for sure, but the ambition they hold seems misplaced and unrealistic.

If Liverpool were to let Benitez go while unable to bring in a superior replacement, it would not represent ambition. It would merely represent panic and irrationality. Looking at the result of an individual game, or even the results of 15 games is not the correct way to analyse the performance of a manager in his sixth season. The previous five seasons were more then satisfactory for any reasonable person involved with Liverpool football club. It is time to dig in and hold firm behind our manager, and give him until the end of the season before any hard and fast decisions are made regarding the long term direction.

kippy

Another poor performance from the Pool and this thread raises its head again. I was hoping after my last foray into the thread that they would at least manage to pick up full points from this current run of games but no.....outdone but a struggling (but perhaps a team on the revival) Pompey.
I see as well that this result seems to be turned a few Liverpool fans against Rafa, not surprising really.
You can make all the excuses in the world and try as many diversionary tactics as you want (Bringing up United etc) but as someone on here has already stated, historically it appears Rafa is a better manager when given someone else squad. Once he has time to build his own it goes to pot.
He's been playing politics with the fans and media now for well over a year and I believe the players themselves may have finally seen this. He cant motivate them any more and results suffer.
You can micro analysize the reasons all you want but the scores on the doors are what it is all about and right now its not good........


In relation to management options should Rafa get the bullet (and that 20 million paycheck) I believe that despite all the history Mark Hughes would be as good a prospect as Liverpool could afford/attract at the moment. Maybe if LFC gave him the same amount of time as they have with the current clown it could work out well. Hughes appears to work better with a limited budget, which Liverpool have.
Am sure that last paragraph wont go down well with the faithful but thats how I see it playing out should Rafa get the bullet.

eagle eye

The club is nearing a dire straits situation, the value of the club must have dropped alarmingly over the last couple of weeks as Champion's League football next year appears more and more unlikely.
Whats the situation with Hicks and Gillet?
Is it likely that they will be forced to sell if things don't improve shortly?

Personally I think Rafa has to take some of the blame for recent performances on the pitch but in all fairness the club does not have enough funds to compete with Chelsea, United and Arsenal.

Just even looking outside those three clubs, Tottenham can afford to have Jermain Jenas, Gareth Bale, Giovani Dos Santos, Roman Pavlyuchenko, David Bentley and young Kyle Naughton sitting on the bench and some of those not even making the bench on matchdays. And thats not even including injured players like Modric, Woodgate and King.
Villa don't have those named players but they have had a decent youth system for some time and have a very decent panel also.

Liverpool don't have anything like the depth of those clubs at the present time. The Liverpool youth system dissapeared about 10 years ago, the last players to come through were Gerard, Carragher and Owen if I'm not mistaken. This is a problem that Rafa had to deal with when he first came to the club. He made steps towards improving it, the results of this I'm not sure of but he tried to get something going that went missing in the Houllier era.

Right now Liverpool are imo paying the price for abandoning that youth system which was so good for so long. It takes time to rebuild a club, Rafa raised the bar for himself again last season with second place and a title challenge for many months. That is the unfortunate thing for him as many club owners and fans have very short term memories and outlooks and don't see that there is a promising future there if some of those young players that have been brought in by Benitez do fulfill the promise he believes they have.

I think if the club gets sold to somebody willing to pump money in both to buy players and pay them that Liverpool would be right back in the hunt very quickly in the short term and if those younger players start to come through over the next two years then Liverpool would be back as a dominant force.

I personally don't like Benitez' tactics, but he has kept Liverpool financially sound through annual Champion's League qualification and a lot of success in that competition since his arrival there. I think that one poor half season, or even one poor season should not see him go. Ultimately imo the blame for the state of Liverpool football club right now lies with his predecessor and the current owners.

Spiritoftheseventies

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, logic fail.

As the statement from the Manchester City owners said, the decision to sack Hughes was based on an assessment of his longer term performance. It wasn't a kneejerk reaction to a single game. One game is irrelevant, and City are capable of identifying that.

However, what City have failed to see, is that even 20 games aren't particularly significant in terms of the bigger picture surrounding a football club. Sacking Hughes because his team hasn't gelled half way through the season after a tremendous amount of player turnover during the previous transfer window is ridiculous. City have the money for sure, but the ambition they hold seems misplaced and unrealistic.

If Liverpool were to let Benitez go while unable to bring in a superior replacement, it would not represent ambition. It would merely represent panic and irrationality. Looking at the result of an individual game, or even the results of 15 games is not the correct way to analyse the performance of a manager in his sixth season. The previous five seasons were more then satisfactory for any reasonable person involved with Liverpool football club. It is time to dig in and hold firm behind our manager, and give him until the end of the season before any hard and fast decisions are made regarding the long term direction.

Yes think Bruce made a good point last night. Coaches spends years getting badges and some might only to get six months at a job. And as he added you cant build clubs in eighteen months and one transfer window and its going to stop people from taking up top jobs

kippy

eagle eye wrote: »

The club is nearing a dire straits situation, the value of the club must have dropped alarmingly over the last couple of weeks as Champion's League football next year appears more and more unlikely.
Whats the situation with Hicks and Gillet?
Is it likely that they will be forced to sell if things don't improve shortly?

Personally I think Rafa has to take some of the blame for recent performances on the pitch but in all fairness the club does not have enough funds to compete with Chelsea, United and Arsenal.

Just even looking outside those three clubs, Tottenham can afford to have Jermain Jenas, Gareth Bale, Giovani Dos Santos, Roman Pavlyuchenko, David Bentley and young Kyle Naughton sitting on the bench and some of those not even making the bench on matchdays. And thats not even including injured players like Modric, Woodgate and King.
Villa don't have those named players but they have had a decent youth system for some time and have a very decent panel also.

Liverpool don't have anything like the depth of those clubs at the present time. The Liverpool youth system dissapeared about 10 years ago, the last players to come through were Gerard, Carragher and Owen if I'm not mistaken. This is a problem that Rafa had to deal with when he first came to the club. He made steps towards improving it, the results of this I'm not sure of but he tried to get something going that went missing in the Houllier era.

Right now Liverpool are imo paying the price for abandoning that youth system which was so good for so long. It takes time to rebuild a club, Rafa raised the bar for himself again last season with second place and a title challenge for many months. That is the unfortunate thing for him as many club owners and fans have very short term memories and outlooks and don't see that there is a promising future there if some of those young players that have been brought in by Benitez do fulfill the promise he believes they have.

I think if the club gets sold to somebody willing to pump money in both to buy players and pay them that Liverpool would be right back in the hunt very quickly in the short term and if those younger players start to come through over the next two years then Liverpool would be back as a dominant force.

I personally don't like Benitez' tactics, but he has kept Liverpool financially sound through annual Champion's League qualification and a lot of success in that competition since his arrival there. I think that one poor half season, or even one poor season should not see him go. Ultimately imo the blame for the state of Liverpool football club right now lies with his predecessor and the current owners.

Ah come on.........Rafa escaping blame? You cant be that blinded by the guy........

I dont see people blaming his predecessors for the 2005 champions league win.

Some Liverpool fans are TOTALLY blinkered about the guy.

While its not ALL his fault, he has a large amount to answer for.

eagle eye

kippy wrote: »

Ah come on.........Rafa escaping blame? You cant be that blinded by the guy........

I dont see people blaming his predecessors for the 2005 champions league win.

Some Liverpool fans are TOTALLY blinkered about the guy.

While its not ALL his fault, he has a large amount to answer for.

I'm not a Liverpool fan, I'm not a Rafa fan either, as a matter of fact I hate the tactics he uses, it kills a good game imo.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, logic fail.

As the statement from the Manchester City owners said, the decision to sack Hughes was based on an assessment of his longer term performance. It wasn't a kneejerk reaction to a single game. One game is irrelevant, and City are capable of identifying that.

However, what City have failed to see, is that even 20 games aren't particularly significant in terms of the bigger picture surrounding a football club. Sacking Hughes because his team hasn't gelled half way through the season after a tremendous amount of player turnover during the previous transfer window is ridiculous. City have the money for sure, but the ambition they hold seems misplaced and unrealistic.

If Liverpool were to let Benitez go while unable to bring in a superior replacement, it would not represent ambition. It would merely represent panic and irrationality. Looking at the result of an individual game, or even the results of 15 games is not the correct way to analyse the performance of a manager in his sixth season. The previous five seasons were more then satisfactory for any reasonable person involved with Liverpool football club. It is time to dig in and hold firm behind our manager, and give him until the end of the season before any hard and fast decisions are made regarding the long term direction.

Its becoming apparent that leaving this guy in charge till the end of the season could be of serious long term detriment to the club.
People are saying that his inability to be flexible with tactics is what is hurting the club this season and that other clubs have copped onto it. This would suggest that people think the players are there to get into the top four. If Rafa isnt going to adjust his tactics, then Liverpool need a manager who will, if only to keep them in the top four this season.

kippy

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not a Liverpool fan, I'm not a Rafa fan either, as a matter of fact I hate the tactics he uses, it kills a good game imo.

Fair enough, am surprised you would factor the current owners and previous managers with more of the blame than Rafa though.

invincibleirish

eagle eye wrote: »

I think if the club gets sold to somebody willing to pump money in both to buy players and pay them that Liverpool would be right back in the hunt very quickly in the short term and if those younger players start to come through over the next two years then Liverpool would be back as a dominant force.

Very true but how many rich foreign sugar daddies are there left on the planet who want to spend 100s of millions on an English football club?.

Even if there was a rich sheikh interested Pool with their enormous debt, 20th century stadium and rundown squad would require the kind of investment that even a billionaire would baulk at imo. Why commit the guts of a billion pounds to buy out H&G, pay off the debt, build a stadium and finance a new team when you can buy a Man City for minimal cost and just splash the cash on transfers & wages?.

As for Rafa, surely any new owners will mean he will fall victim to the Ranieri/Hughes affect and be out the door anyway?.

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

Its becoming apparent that leaving this guy in charge till the end of the season could be of serious long term detriment to the club.
People are saying that his inability to be flexible with tactics is what is hurting the club this season and that other clubs have copped onto it. This would suggest that people think the players are there to get into the top four. If Rafa isnt going to adjust his tactics, then Liverpool need a manager who will, if only to keep them in the top four this season.

What manager, currently available, is the sort of tactical genius that can assure us of a top four finish in the most competitive Premiership in living memory with more certainty than Benitez? You name him, I'll back him.

ilovelamp2000

eagle eye wrote: »

The club is nearing a dire straits situation, the value of the club must have dropped alarmingly over the last couple of weeks as Champion's League football next year appears more and more unlikely.
Whats the situation with Hicks and Gillet?
Is it likely that they will be forced to sell if things don't improve shortly?

Personally I think Rafa has to take some of the blame for recent performances on the pitch but in all fairness the club does not have enough funds to compete with Chelsea, United and Arsenal.

Just even looking outside those three clubs, Tottenham can afford to have Jermain Jenas, Gareth Bale, Giovani Dos Santos, Roman Pavlyuchenko, David Bentley and young Kyle Naughton sitting on the bench and some of those not even making the bench on matchdays. And thats not even including injured players like Modric, Woodgate and King.
Villa don't have those named players but they have had a decent youth system for some time and have a very decent panel also.

Liverpool don't have anything like the depth of those clubs at the present time. The Liverpool youth system dissapeared about 10 years ago, the last players to come through were Gerard, Carragher and Owen if I'm not mistaken. This is a problem that Rafa had to deal with when he first came to the club. He made steps towards improving it, the results of this I'm not sure of but he tried to get something going that went missing in the Houllier era.

Right now Liverpool are imo paying the price for abandoning that youth system which was so good for so long. It takes time to rebuild a club, Rafa raised the bar for himself again last season with second place and a title challenge for many months. That is the unfortunate thing for him as many club owners and fans have very short term memories and outlooks and don't see that there is a promising future there if some of those young players that have been brought in by Benitez do fulfill the promise he believes they have.

I think if the club gets sold to somebody willing to pump money in both to buy players and pay them that Liverpool would be right back in the hunt very quickly in the short term and if those younger players start to come through over the next two years then Liverpool would be back as a dominant force.

I personally don't like Benitez' tactics, but he has kept Liverpool financially sound through annual Champion's League qualification and a lot of success in that competition since his arrival there. I think that one poor half season, or even one poor season should not see him go. Ultimately imo the blame for the state of Liverpool football club right now lies with his predecessor and the current owners.

Why do people constantly trot out money as an excuse when the fact is Rafa has spent more than everyone bar Chelsea and City in the last five years?

The reason we have no depth is because Rafa has padded out his squad with rubbish players.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What manager, currently available, is the sort of tactical genius that can assure us of a top four finish in the most competitive Premiership in living memory with more certainty than Benitez? You name him, I'll back him.

You dont need to be a tactical genius to be flexible with your tactics.

To be honest any manager other than Rafa would bring something different tacticilly and motivationally to the club.


I personally think a change of manager at this stage of the season ALMOST always leads to a gee up in performances from players.

Lucky, what happens this time May when LFC miss out on the CL places? Rafa out, you'll have the same questions to answer then with the added negativity of not being in the CL the following season.

eagle eye

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Why do people constantly trot out money as an excuse when the fact is Rafa has spent more than everyone bar Chelsea and City in the last five years?

The reason we have no depth is because Rafa has padded out his squad with rubbish players.

Why do people constantly trot out transfer fees and never look at the more important wage bills?

Thanx 4 The Fish

Rosco. you are talking rubbish. Go and look up the rafa spending thread, he has not had more to spend. If he did he could have kept players and bought others. He has had to sell players to buy others, not spend spend spend and have a big auld bunch of players hanging around to pad out the squad.