Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

ilovelamp2000

eagle eye wrote: »

Why do people constantly trot out transfer fees and never look at the more important wage bills?

Because the figures are always out of date.

eagle eye

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Because the figures are always out of date.

So basically what you are saying is that last years wage bills are out of date and thats the end of it, but last years transfer fees are important?????????

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

You dont need to be a tactical genius to be flexible with your tactics.

To be honest any manager other than Rafa would bring something different tacticilly and motivationally to the club.


I personally think a change of manager at this stage of the season ALMOST always leads to a gee up in performances from players.

Lucky, what happens this time May when LFC miss out on the CL places? Rafa out, you'll have the same questions to answer then with the added negativity of not being in the CL the following season.

Oh good, because I was worried you were going to be somewhat vague and resort to cliches in the absence of being able to put forward a credible candidate.

LuckyLloyd

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Rosco. you are talking rubbish. Go and look up the rafa spending thread, he has not had more to spend. If he did he could have kept players and bought others. He has had to sell players to buy others, not spend spend spend and have a big auld bunch of players hanging around to pad out the squad.

It's not entirely his fault when every tabloid paper and two bit pundit like to propagate that very myth every chance they get.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh good, because I was worried you were going to be somewhat vague and resort to cliches in the absence of being able to put forward a credible candidate.

What do you want me to say?
If you honestly think Rafa still has the backing and faith of the squad after the results and moreso the performances of late you are deluded.
Any chance in management will at least give the players a kick up the hole and perhaps the right motivational manager might get them performing as a team who are allegedly a top four team.
You want me to give you a name...McLeish given the resources Rafa has would probably do that for the club on the short term basis.

You're gonna have the same excuses for keeping him next May when yer after finishing in 6th and on the verge of losing Torres due to financial issues.

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

What do you want me to say?
If you honestly think Rafa still has the backing and faith of the squad after the results and moreso the performances of late you are deluded.
Any chance in management will at least give the players a kick up the hole and perhaps the right motivational manager might get them performing as a team who are allegedly a top four team.
You want me to give you a name...McLeish given the resources Rafa has would probably do that for the club on the short term basis.

You're gonna have the same excuses for keeping him next May when yer after finishing in 6th and on the verge of losing Torres due to financial issues.

The key difference is that the likes of Mourinho may be available at that point, or a couple of managers currently tied to WC2010 may be on the market as the tournament progresses. Which is why sticking it out is definitely the best option. Seriously, the idea that McLeish has a higher expectation in points than Benitez between now and the end of the season is pretty funny!

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The key difference is that the likes of Mourinho may be available at that point, or a couple of managers currently tied to WC2010 may be on the market as the tournament progresses. Which is why sticking it out is definitely the best option. Seriously, the idea that McLeish has a higher expectation in points than Benitez between now and the end of the season is pretty funny!

Why is it funny?
His team are level on points with the mighty Liverpool with one game in hand, at a club which has NOWHERE NEAR the resources of Liverpool.
He'd have a better chance getting ye into the top 4 than yer current manager.
A stopgap manager perhaps, but really, the clubs is heading for dire straits under current management......


Mourinho to Liverpool? Are you serious, when ye dont make the top 4 this season ye wont be able to afford, nor attract a manager of that status.

Johnny Utah

Mr Alan wrote: »

If Liverpool didn't sell Robbie Keane in Jan, you can take 15m out of the money we spent this summer, so that'd be no johnson (who has been sensational), or Aquilani who is alonsos replacement.

Nice assist by Glen Johnson there yesterday. Sensational!

eagle eye

kippy wrote: »

Why is it funny?
His team are level on points with the mighty Liverpool with one game in hand, at a club which has NOWHERE NEAR the resources of Liverpool.

So then you are saying that Phil Brown could do a better job than Alex Ferguson?
After all his team were ahead of United last season after 9 games.

kippy

eagle eye wrote: »

So then you are saying that Phil Brown could do a better job than Alex Ferguson?
After all his team were ahead of United last season after 9 games.

Listen, if you want to fudge the issues by bringing United into it, fair enough.

United werent a club in Crisis, Fergie has an UNMATCHED pedigree in winning Premierleague trophies, do you want me to keep going on why those comparisions are unfair?

Almost halfway through the season, Liverpool are in DIRE straights. Anyone who cant see this is blinded by something I cannot fathom.
Keep going with Rafa and I (like Rafa himself) would guarentee a finish outside the top four and far greater long term issues for the club.

rossie1977

kippy wrote: »

Listen, if you want to fudge the issues by bringing United into it, fair enough.

United werent a club in Crisis, Fergie has an UNMATCHED pedigree in winning Premierleague trophies, do you want me to keep going on why those comparisions are unfair?

well lets rewind a little, seasons 1987-88 and seasons 1988-89

season 1987-88 utd and ferguson finished a very respectable second to an all conquering liverpool, just a few points behind

following season utd went into freefall and ended up in mid table at seasons end, the utd board had faith in a manager (despite results like city 5-1 utd), and the rest is history

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

Why is it funny?
His team are level on points with the mighty Liverpool with one game in hand, at a club which has NOWHERE NEAR the resources of Liverpool.
He'd have a better chance getting ye into the top 4 than yer current manager.
A stopgap manager perhaps, but really, the clubs is heading for dire straits under current management......


Mourinho to Liverpool? Are you serious, when ye dont make the top 4 this season ye wont be able to afford, nor attract a manager of that status.

lol! You do realise that this is a really inefficient way to assess the expectation clubs and managers have for the remainder of a season, right? Remember Hull and Aston Villa from last season? Or any team in the history of the premiership (or any league) that has run over / under their expectation for a short run of games?

As for Mourinho, if he wants out of Inter it is nowhere near a ridiculous suggestion. He clearly had an affection for the tradition and history of Anfield when he was at Chelsea, and that type of challenge may appeal to him at this stage of his career.

invincibleirish

kippy wrote: »

Why is it funny?
His team are level on points with the mighty Liverpool with one game in hand, at a club which has NOWHERE NEAR the resources of Liverpool.

Correction, Mcleish has between 20 - 40 million pounds to spend in January according to various reports thanks to their new Hong Kong based hairdresser owner.

kippy

rossie1977 wrote: »

well lets rewind a little, seasons 1987-88 and seasons 1988-89

season 1987-88 utd and ferguson finished a very respectable second to an all conquering liverpool, just a few points behind

following season utd went into freefall and ended up in mid table at seasons end, the utd board had faith in a manager (despite results like city 5-1 utd), and the rest is history

Ah ffs.
Lets just rehash that one again for the 15th time in this thread. Its one of the most used points in here to defend Rafa.

Look, if you honestly believe Rafa will defy the logic being spouted in this thread (no money to spend.....not a big enough stadium........owners who dont back him.... inflexible tactics) can you honestly see him becoming the most successful manager in British club history over the next twenty years?

Times are a lot different now as well in fairness, Liverpool are up to their eyes in debt, failure to qualify for a CL this season could be disastrous.

kippy

invincibleirish wrote: »

Correction, Mcleish has between 20 - 40 million pounds to spend in January according to various reports thanks to their new Hong Kong based hairdresser owner.

Are you comparing the resources of Birmingham football club over the past 5 years with that of Liverpool, because that is what we are measuring here.
He hasnt spent that money yet, and when he does are Liverpool in more trouble than they are now?

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol! You do realise that this is a really inefficient way to assess the expectation clubs and managers have for the remainder of a season, right? Remember Hull and Aston Villa from last season? Or any team in the history of the premiership (or any league) that has run over / under their expectation for a short run of games?

As for Mourinho, if he wants out of Inter it is nowhere near a ridiculous suggestion. He clearly had an affection for the tradition and history of Anfield when he was at Chelsea, and that type of challenge may appeal to him at this stage of his career.

As inefficient as it is,it is a short run of 17/18 games ye have to save yer season, Rafa hasnt been able to do the job in the first half of the season with NOTHING positive coming at all from the last few performances. Get someone else in for the next 17/18 games to save the season.

Mourinho has an effection for any club thats willing to pay his wages to be fair.....
He'd be more likely to end up at Real than Liverpool.

PHB

I don't get this whole, there are no other managers out there. The following people could be brought in who could have a big impact. I think Mancini could have offered something. I think Rijkaard could make a difference and would surely leave Turkey happily. Moyes is the obvious PL suggestion but the rivalry would stop it. Or you could just do what most people do, take a chance of an upcoming manager who you think can do it. Find the next Guardiola.

Can't see Mourinho going. It's clear he wants United. The Glaziers clearly want him. He knows a Liverpool move will ruin it.

NukaCola

kippy wrote: »

Liverpool are in DIRE straights.

Wow, as a liverpool fan i never realised this until you put it in Caps for me...
:pac:

rossie1977

kippy wrote: »

As inefficient as it is,it is a short run of 17/18 games ye have to save yer season, Rafa hasnt been able to do the job in the first half of the season with NOTHING positive coming at all from the last few performances. Get someone else in for the next 17/18 games to save the season.

liverpool should go for mike walker or george burley then, they have proven they can finish in the top 4 :cool:

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

As inefficient as it is,it is a short run of 17/18 games ye have to save yer season, Rafa hasnt been able to do the job in the first half of the season with NOTHING positive coming at all from the last few performances. Get someone else in for the next 17/18 games to save the season.

Mourinho has an effection for any club thats willing to pay his wages to be fair.....
He'd be more likely to end up at Real than Liverpool.

Yes, but the fact he got it done the previous five seasons seems more significant to me than the fact that he hasn't got it done for 18 games of this season.

That sentence about Mourinho means nothing to be fair. Liverpool weren't paying his wages when they dumped him out of the Champions League Semi - finals twice, and the respect he demonstrated for the club around those games seemed very genuine.

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

Can't see Mourinho going. It's clear he wants United. The Glaziers clearly want him. He knows a Liverpool move will ruin it.

I too believe that Jose will end up at United eventually but what are you basing the "clearly" assertions on?

Spiritoftheseventies

This very appropriate to current debate. excellent article in todays Sindo. Would encourage everyone to read it. Below the last par from it

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/searching-for-a-revolution-1982460.html

Now they may have to rise in pursuit of something again. Taylor has no doubts about the club, he is sure there will be no meltdown.

"This (Liverpool) is a tough old city. We are a Celtic city; the harder you hit us, the harder we are. People who get whacked all the time know who they are. The Irish know who they are, the Jews know who they are, the Palestinians know who they are, the Russians know who they are and the Scousers know who they are. That is pretty durable kit." Right now, it needs to be.

PHB

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I too believe that Jose will end up at United eventually but what are you basing the "clearly" assertions on?

Mourinho clearly wants it:

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/clubfootball/news/newsid=1084932.html

As for United. Its just been reported from various sources inside the club that he is the Glaziers firm favoriate atm.

kippy

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Wow, as a liverpool fan i never realised this until you put it in Caps for me...
:pac:

Honestly, reading this thread, I think that a lot of Liverpool fans are still in denial about this season.

curry-muff

PHB wrote: »

I don't get this whole, there are no other managers out there. The following people could be brought in who could have a big impact. I think Mancini could have offered something. I think Rijkaard could make a difference and would surely leave Turkey happily. Moyes is the obvious PL suggestion but the rivalry would stop it. Or you could just do what most people do, take a chance of an upcoming manager who you think can do it. Find the next Guardiola.

Can't see Mourinho going. It's clear he wants United. The Glaziers clearly want him. He knows a Liverpool move will ruin it.

Roy Hodgson FTW!!!

Spiritoftheseventies

kippy wrote: »

Honestly, reading this thread, I think that a lot of Liverpool fans are still in denial about this season.

name which fans and provide examples

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes, but the fact he got it done the previous five seasons seems more significant to me than the fact that he hasn't got it done for 18 games of this season.

That sentence about Mourinho means nothing to be fair. Liverpool weren't paying his wages when they dumped him out of the Champions League Semi - finals twice, and the respect he demonstrated for the club around those games seemed very genuine.

Its starting to sound all very Houlieresque to be honest. Lots of fans have already stated on this and other threads that teams have gotten accustomed to his tactics, found a way to nullify them and Rafa has no plan b. If thats the case it doesnt matter how well he has done in the past five years.....if he cant adapt he is fcuked.

Mourinho would show respect to almost any team if they had the potential to be his employers and pay his wages in the future. I really cant see him at Liverpool........not with their current owners anyway.

kippy

bayviewclose wrote: »

name which fans and provide examples

Have you read the first 100 or so posts on this thread? Theres examples of it throughout the thread......

kippy

bayviewclose wrote: »

This very appropriate to current debate. excellent article in todays Sindo. Would encourage everyone to read it. Below the last par from it

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/searching-for-a-revolution-1982460.html

Now they may have to rise in pursuit of something again. Taylor has no doubts about the club, he is sure there will be no meltdown.

"This (Liverpool) is a tough old city. We are a Celtic city; the harder you hit us, the harder we are. People who get whacked all the time know who they are. The Irish know who they are, the Jews know who they are, the Palestinians know who they are, the Russians know who they are and the Scousers know who they are. That is pretty durable kit." Right now, it needs to be.

Are you a scouser?

Spiritoftheseventies

kippy wrote: »

Its starting to sound all very Houlieresque to be honest. Lots of fans have already stated on this and other threads that teams have gotten accustomed to his tactics, found a way to nullify them and Rafa has no plan b. If thats the case it doesnt matter how well he has done in the past five years.....if he cant adapt he is fcuked.

Mourinho would show respect to almost any team if they had the potential to be his employers and pay his wages in the future. I really cant see him at Liverpool........not with their current owners anyway.

To be fair it would be great to have Mourinho as manager especially when we beat Chelsea. A double whammy of sorts

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

Honestly, reading this thread, I think that a lot of Liverpool fans are still in denial about this season.

i don't think many are in denial at all.

most liverpool fans like Rafa, and acknowledge what he's done for the club, and want to give him the most amount of time possible to get it right.

we know we've been sh*t. nobody will say otherwise. how stupid do you think we are?

we want what's best for the club, and although, personally, my patience is on its last tether, and change might be what's best; many fans are not sure if sacking him is best for the club. this caution is born out of the financial fragility at the club, and knowing that we already have a good manager in Rafa (yes, we might need change, but he IS a good manager), despite the recent form.

this is understandable, and should not be viewed as being in denial.

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't think many are in denial at all.

most liverpool fans like Rafa, and acknowledge what he's done for the club, and want to give him the most amount of time possible to get it right.

we know we've been sh*t. nobody will say otherwise. how stupid do you think we are?

we want what's best for the club, and although, personally, my patience is on its last tether, and change might be what's best; many fans are not sure if sacking him is best for the club. this caution is born out of the financial fragility at the club, and knowing that we already have a good manager in Rafa (yes, we might need change, but he IS a good manager), despite the recent form.

this is understandable, and should not be viewed as being in denial.

I see it as being in denial.
Denying that Rafa isnt the man for the job.
There were lots of people early on the in thread who wouldnt eadmit that the team were playing crap.

kippy

bayviewclose wrote: »

To be fair it would be great to have Mourinho as manager especially when we beat Chelsea. A double whammy of sorts

Why would that be great-ye've beaten United and Everton already this season - is that what you remember the close of 2009 for?

SlickRic

kippy wrote: »

I see it as being in denial.
Denying that Rafa isnt the man for the job.
There were lots of people early on the in thread who wouldnt eadmit that the team were playing crap.

including myself.

just because you play crap for a period, doesn't on its own mean the man isn't the man for the job, or that the team is a crap team.

he's proven he's a good manager. the fact that his time is now probably running out doesn't change that fact, and he deserves as much time as possible given his contributions to the club.

and once again, this is all born out of caution because of the financial fragility we're in.

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

including myself.

just because you play crap for a period, doesn't on its own mean the man isn't the man for the job, or that the team is a crap team.

he's proven he's a good manager. the fact that his time is now probably running out doesn't change that fact, and he deserves as much time as possible given his contributions to the club.

and once again, this is all born out of caution because of the financial fragility we're in.

No it doesnt, but the longer that brand of crapness continues the more you have to ask yourself what has changed to bring this level of under performance on and why has it gone on for almost three months. A lot more than just a blip.
If it is because his tactic has been "found out" and he seems unwilling or unable to change it then one has to ask is he the man for the job from here on in, despite his "contributions to the club" (which as you are well aware I am skeptical enough of in the first place)
The financial fragility ye are in, would, in my opinion, mean that ensuring ye get into the CL next season is prime priority and because of the points mentioned above, I dont think ye can afford to hold on to Rafa.

Anyway, here is where I sign of this thread this time round, as I said last time, I hope its a few more games before I am back but for every game ye lose points in, ye grow closer to being a midtable team.

Spiritoftheseventies

kippy wrote: »

Why would that be great-ye've beaten United and Everton already this season - is that what you remember the close of 2009 for?

Was half joking. Give us a break will ya

Villain

That League table looks bad for Pool, Brum go ahead of them and fulham in 9th are only 1 point behind pool with a game in hand!!

Spiritoftheseventies

Villain wrote: »

That League table looks bad for Pool, Brum go ahead of them and fulham in 9th are only 1 point behind pool with a game in hand!!

As the thread title goes haters gonna hate

Villain

bayviewclose wrote: »

As the thread title goes haters gonna hate

LOL I love that I point out what the league table says and I'm a hater. Says more about you than me that response tbh

Spiritoftheseventies

Villain wrote: »

LOL I love that I point out what the league table says and I'm a hater. Says more about you than me that response tbh

Yeah we dont need you to point out the obvious. At least be original

Fuhrer

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yeah we dont need you to point out the obvious. At least be original

:rolleyes:

_blank_

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yeah we dont need you to point out the obvious. At least be original

I like the new thread title, gives all the Liverpool fans a nice little out when anyone questions anything Rafa/The Players/The Club does.

Say or question something bad about any of those things and the accusations of "Hater" gets levelled.

Also, the person who changed the thread title is a Liverpool fan.

How very convenient.

Just lock the fúcking thread. The new thread title has stifled discussion.

Villain

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yeah we dont need you to point out the obvious. At least be original

Well it was only after the Everton v Brum game that they dropped to 8th and then when Sky showed the table I realised that after Fulham's win yesterday they were only a point behind with a game in hand. All the teams around Liverpool picked up points again this week.

Call me a hater if you like but this is a dicussion forum and if everytime someones posts about the league table you are going to call them a hater it will get old fast.

The thread title is silly and if it applys here then it applies to all super threads too, its all about opinions and facts and sadly for Liverpool the facts are bad so the opinions will follow. 8th at xmas!

Spiritoftheseventies

Des wrote: »

I like the new thread title, gives all the Liverpool fans a nice little out when anyone questions anything Rafa/The Players/The Club does.

Say or question something bad about any of those things and the accusations of "Hater" gets levelled.

Also, the person who changed the thread title is a Liverpool fan.

How very convenient.

Just lock the fúcking thread. The new thread title has stifled discussion.

Mods are mods. Dont think they can be accused of bias either way or they wouldn't be mods.

_blank_

bayviewclose wrote: »

Mods are mods. Dont think they can be accused of bias either way or they wouldn't be mods.

Now, I didn't mention bias anywhere.

I just think it's fairly convenient that discussion can be stifled like this.

Spiritoftheseventies

Des wrote: »

Now, I didn't mention bias anywhere.

So why did you mention mod supported Pool. What difference does that make. Really if you have a problem with title you should take it up via pm. think thats the protocol.

mayordenis

for what it's worth (I'm definately not accusing Des or Villian of this btw) I think the rename was mostly to remind people especially Liverpool fans that people are going to have a go right now, rightly or wrongly.

Spiritoftheseventies

Anyway back to the discussion. Did anyone read the article from earlier. Think it gave a good ideal of general feeling on Merseyside. Pool are a resilient lot at end of the day.Have been through a lot. As the saying goes Sticks and stones..

_blank_

mayordenis wrote: »

for what it's worth (I'm definately not accusing Des or Villian of this btw) I think the rename was mostly to remind people especially Liverpool fans that people are going to have a go right now, rightly or wrongly.

The thing is though, that if anyone comes and mentions anything in a negative light it becomes open season, because of the mod-inspired thread title, for them to be dismissed as "haters".

Things aren't going well for Liverpool at the moment, and that is a huge subject for discussion. It's not people having a go, it's people discussing a pretty big football topic at the moment.

Liverpool in 7th or 8th place at Xmas is a topic that people should be allowed to be discuss without fear of being labelled as a "hater".

It's a nice little escape from actual discussion, provided by our friendly mod.

ilovelamp2000

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Rosco. you are talking rubbish. Go and look up the rafa spending thread, he has not had more to spend. If he did he could have kept players and bought others. He has had to sell players to buy others, not spend spend spend and have a big auld bunch of players hanging around to pad out the squad.

He has had more to spend than Ferguson in the last five years. That's a fact, it's not arguable.

The problem is he wasted on players that didn't suit the team or are just rubbish. Over his last two years of transfer activity only Riera has made our first XI better, and even then it was marginally.

The other £70 million was misspent.